IRLF 


OF  THE 
UNIVERSITY 
->        OF 

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,Ja^ 

I    j$ f  '<•/€    of  . 

REPORT  AMD  TESTIMONY 


•OF  THE 


Wags  and  Means  Committee 


IK  ITS 


INVESTIGATION 


OF  THE 


DIFFERENCES  BETWEEN 

THE   CHIEF   EXECUTIVE 


AND  THE 


Remaining 
Members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board 

STATE  OF  ARKANSAS 


A* 


Report  No.  1. 


Mr.  Speaker — The  undersigned,  members  of  your  Committee 
on  Ways  and  Means,  in  accordance  with  the  resolution  of  the 
House  directing  us  to  investigate  the  cause  of  differences  between 
the  chief  executive  and  the  remaining  members  of  the  Penitentiary 
Board,  beg  leave  to  report  that  we  have  dischargd  that  duty  so 
far  as  it  lies  within  our  power.  The  basis  of  our  investigation  was 
animadversions  of  the  chief  executive  in  his  message  to  the 
General  Assembly  upon  the  official  conduct  of  Attorney  General 
Murphy,  Auditor  Monroe,  Secretary  of  State  Crockett,  Commis- 
sioner Bradford,  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board,  and  other 
officials  connected  with  penitentiary  management  in  the  pur- 
chase of  what  is  known  as  the  Cummins  plantation  for  a  convict 
farm,  together  with  counter  charges  made  in  a  public  speech 
by  General  Murphy,  and  specifications  filed  with  the  committee 
by  General  Murphy  on  behalf  of  the  board. 

As  a  result  of  this  investigation,  which  extended  over  a  period 
of  more  than  a  month,  we,  as  directed,  submit  the  following  as 
our  findings: 

Your  committee  took  no  testimony  relative  to  the  physical 
features  of  the  Cummins  plantation  or  the  value  thereof,  a  majority 
of  the  committee  deciding  that  that  feature  of  the  investigation 
had  been  delegated  to  a  committee  appointed  expressly  for  that 
purpose;  but  upon  all  other  matters  pertaining  to  the  purchase 
of  the  farm  the  inquiry  was  as  full  and  thorough  as  could  be 
made.  The  investigation  took  a  wide  range,  embracing  all  the 
points  presented  by  General  Murphy  and  the  members  of  the 
Penitentiary  Board  other  than  the  Governor.  The  latter,  in  reply 
to  an  inquiry  whether  he  had  any  witnesses  he  wished  to  intro- 
duce, informed  the  committee  that  he  had  not. 

Of  the  specifications  filed  with  your  committee  by  General 
Murphy  and  the  other  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  who 
were  interested,  Nos.  .16,  18  and  19  were  disapproved  by  your 


_4  — 

committee,  and  No.  17  was  withdrawn  by  General  Murphy.  For 
brevity  we  give  in  our  findings  what  we  consider  facts  adduced 
by  the  testimony  in  relation  to  the  specifications  of  General  Murphy 
and  other  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  relating  to  the 
purchase  of  the  Cummins  farm,  and  the  incidents  relating  thereto, 
under  one  head. 

The  testimony  does  not  show  that  the  board  ever  attempted  to 
purchase  or  even  seriously  consider  purchasing  what  is  known 
as  the  Beakley  place  in  Lonoke  County.  It'  the  board  ever  had 
such  an  object  in  vifew,  or  made  any  attempt  in  that  direction, 
neither  the  records  of  that  body  nor  other  testimony  show  that 
fact. 

The  testimony  laid  before  your  committee  shows  that  the 
purchase  of  the  Cummins  farm  was  made  as  a  legitimate  trans- 
action; that  the  chief  executive  was  aware  of  the  fact  that  its 
purchase  was  contemplated;  that  its  physical  features  were 
examined  by  a  majority  of  the  board  and  the  Superintendent  of 
the  Penitentiary  before  a  decision  to  purchase  was  arrived  at;  that 
its  purchase  by  the  board  and  transfer  to  the  State  were  char- 
acterized by  that  degree  of  prudence  and  caution  which  should 
always  govern  men  in  business  transactions.  The  testim'ony  upon 
all  points,  relating  to  this  matter  is  convincing. 

Testimony  shows  that  the  first  payment  for  the  farm  was  made 
with  funds  obtained  by  the  sale  of  cotton  belonging  to  the  State, 
which  was  sold  on  a  rising  market,  but  at  a  figure  lower  than 
had  before  prevailed.  If  loss  resulted  from  its  not  having  been 
held  longer,  this  loss  was  but  an  incident  peculiar  to  the  bus- 
iness of  those,  who  deal  in  a  staple  which  has  a  value  affected  by 
conditions  and  surroundings  well  known  to  the  commercial  world. 

Summing  up  the  testimony  taken  upon  all  the  matters  per- 
taining to  this  transaction,  we  are  at  a  loss  to  discover  where  the 
action  of  either  Murphy,  Monroe,  Crockett  and  Bradford,  of  the 
Penitentiary  Board,  amounted  in  the  least  degree  to  "gross  care- 
lessness and  neglect  of  their  official  duties  in  this  behalf." 

In  regard  to  the  transaction  whereby  the  Arkansas  Brick  and 
Manufacturing  Company  were  furnished  by  the  Superintendent 
of  the  Penitentiary,  Mr.  Reese  Hogins,  with  extra  men  in  addition 
to  the  number  it  had  contracted  for,  the  testimony  adduced  shows 
that  Mr.  Hogins  acted  with  good  business  judgment.  We  also  find 
that  if  the  Penitentiary  Board  ever  by  resolution  endorsed  this 
action  of  the  Superintendent,  as  charged  in  the  message  of  the 


—  5  — 

Governor,  that  fact  does  not  appear  in  the  record  of  any  of  the 
board's  meetings,  nor  does  it  appear  from  the  testimony  submitted 
by  the  different  members  of  the  board.  It  does  not  appear,  either, 
that  the  differences  between  the  Governor  and  the  Superintendent 
of  the  Penitentiary  resulted  from  this  transaction.  On  the  contrary^ 
the  testimony  shows  that  the  relations  between  the  two  became 
strained  at  a  much  earlier  period,  and  that  the  strained  relations 
bad  its  origin  in  the  refusal  of  the  Superintendent  to  make  cer- 
tain removals  of  officials  under  the  latter's  control  at  the  instance 
of  the  Governor. 

In  regard  to  specifications  7  and  8,  we  find  that  the  testimony 
discloses  nothing  to  warrant  a  belief  that  the  State  convicts  have 
been  maltreated,  or  that  they  have  been  fed  upon  food  unfit  for 
men  who  labor  as  convicts  are  compelled  to  labor. 

In  connection  wTith  this  matter,  we  further  find  that  James  F. 
Rector,  a  Clay  County  convict,  whose  picture  in  public  print  caused 
such  a  sensation  at  the  time  of  its  appearance,  did  not  die  from 
starvation  and  the  effects  of  maltreatment,  but  from  indigestion. 
His  emaciated  condition  resulted  from  non-assimilation  of  food. 
Dr.  Witt,  Penitentiary  Physician  at  the  time,  gave  conclusive  tes- 
timony upon  this  point.  He  testified  that  when  Rector  was  placed 
in  his  care  he  bore  no  scars  upon  his  body  except  those  occasioned 
by  bed  sores — these  were  upon  his  hips — and  that  so  far  as  he 
could  see  there  were  no  scars  upon  his  back  or  any  other  portion 
of  his  body.  Dr.  Witt  further  testified  that  the  chief  executive 
was  acquainted  with  these  facts  before  the  publication  of  Rector's 
picture,  having  advised  him  of  the  same  himself. 

We  find  in  reference  to  specification  9  that  the  chief  executive 
endeavored  to  induce  Auditor  T.  C.  Monroe  to  join  him  in  the 
purchase  of  a  convict  farm,  by  an  intimation  that  he  would 
bring  out  opposition  to  Mr.  Monroe  in  his  candidacy  for  a  second 
term  of  office  unless  he  acceded  to  his  (the  executive's)  wishes 
in  the  purchase  of  a  farm,  and  that  he  exacted  from  Mr.  Monroe 
a  written  agreement  that  the  latter  would  join  him  and  the  Sec- 
retary of  State  in  buying  the  farm.  This  agreement  appears  in 
full  in  the  testimony  submitted  by  your  committee. 

Specification  11  charges  the  governor  with  drawing  a  voucher 
for  $25  for  expenses  incurred  in  examining  the  farms,  when  the 
Penitentiary  Board  had  already  made  arrangements  for  that  pur- 
pose. We  find  that  the  amount  in  question  was  drawn  for  the 
purpose  indicated  by  the  Governor,  but  returned  to  the  treasury 


—  6  — 

Ron  "time  in  the  early  part  of  February,  and  the  testimony  of  Mr. 
Charles  Jacobson,  private  secretary  of  the  Governor,  shows  that 
he  was  directed  to  return  the  amount  to  the  treasury  shortly 
after  the  trip,  but  neglected  to  do  so. 

Your  committee  carefully  examined  the  charge  contained  in 
specification  12.  We  find  that  the  chief  executive  in  June,  1902, 
drew  a  voucher  upon  the  contingent  fund  for  $35  to  defray  expenses 
of  a  trip  to  Fayetteville  upon  official  business,  and  that  he  drew  $32 
from  the  Secretary  of  the  Board  of  Trustees  of  the  University 
of  Arkansas  for  the  same  trip.  Testimony  of  Colonel  Tipton,  State 
Treasurer,  is  that  so  far  as  he  can  remember,  the  Governor 
deposited  the  voucher  for  the  draft  upon  the  contingent  fund  in 
the  State  treasury  with  the  understanding  that  it  was  to  be 
deducted  from  his  salary  as  Governor.  Further  than  this  we  can- 
not find  where  evidence  shows  that  this  money  was  ever  returned. 

In  the  investigation  of  what  was  presented  in  specification  13, 
we  find  that  the  testimony  .shows  the  chief  executive  made  an 
arrangement  with  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Telephone  Com- 
pany to  secure  the  usual  reductions  on  long-distance  telephone  mes- 
sages, the  same  being  paid  for  out  of  the  contingent  fund.  The 
evidence  shows  instances  of  payments  having  been  made  out  of  the 
contingent  fund  for  telephone  business  not  of  a  public  nature, 
and  in  no  way  connected  with  the  State's  business.  Payment  for 
a  cut  of  James  Rector,  the  convict  whose  death  is  alleged  to  have 
resulted  from  maltreatment  and  starvation,  was  also  made  fron? 
this  fund. 

In  regard  to  specifications  14  and  15,  we  find  that  the  chief 
executive  did  receive  from  Rhodes,  Haverty  &  Jackson,  a  prom- 
inent furniture  firm  which  furnished  the  Deaf-Mute  Institute  with 
several  thousand  dollars'  worth  of  goods  during  the  latter  part 
of  December,  a  gift  in  the  shape  of  furniture  of  some  value.  Your 
committee  examined  Mr.  Jackson,  a  member  of  the  firm,  upon  this 
matter,  but  his  testimony  failed  to  show  that  the  gift  was  made 
for  any  improper  purpose,  but  was  made  as  a  Christmas  present. 

Your  committee  took  exhaustive  testimony  in  reference  to  the 
attempted  sale  by  Mr.  Louis  Altheimer  of  the  Haywood  plantation 
to  the  State  for  a  convict  farm.  Mr.  Altheimer  testified  that  his 
figures  for  the  farm  were  at  first  $92,500,  which  he  reduced,  at 
the  instance  of  the  Governor,  to  $87,500,  and  that  the  day  the 
board  held  a  meeting  to  consider  this  proposition  he  gave  the 
Governor  another  proposition  in  writing  to  sell  the  farm  for  $75,000. 


—  7  — 

The  records  of  to  board  fail  to  show  that  the  Governor  ever 
submitted  this  last  proposition  to  them.  Messrs.  Crockett,  Mon- 
roe, Murphy  and  Hill,  who,  with  the  Governor,  composed  the  Pen- 
itentiary Board  at  the  time,  are  a  unit  in  their  testimony  that 
at  the  meeting  in  question  the  only  bid  for  the  sale  of  the  farm_ 
placed  before  them  was  for  $87,500,  and  that  the  $75,000  bid,  which 
Mr.  Altheimer  says  he  authorized  the  Governor  to  make,  was  never 
presented  for  their  consideration.  The  records  of  the  board  also 
show  that  at  this  meeting  the  Governor  presented  a  resolution  to 
*he  effect  that  the  board  should  buy  a  convict  farm,  that  he  offered 
the  bid  of  Mr.  Altheimer  of  $87,500,  and  then  moved  the  adoption 
of  the  same. 

Specification  20  alleges  that  the  chief  executive  accepted  the 
use  of  a  special  car,  free  of  charge,  from  the  Choctaw  Railway 
Company  for  the  transportation  of  himself  and  some  of  his  friends 
on  a  hunting  trip  in  the  West,  knowing  that  it  was  tendered  for 
..the  purpose  of  influencing  his  official  conduct  in  the  matter  of 
assessing  the  property  of  the  road.  There  is  no  proof  to  sustain 
the  charge  that  the  tender  was  either  made  or  accepted  with  ulterior 
motives,  but  that  free  transportation  for  th'e  purpose  mentioned 
was  accepted  and  used  is  clearly  shown  by  the  testimony  of  nearly 
all  the  witnesses  who  testified  in  regard  to  the  matter.  The  Gov- 
ernor, however,  did  not  join  the  hunting  party  until  the  car  reached 
Indian  Territory.  Testimony  also  shows  that  he  returned  in  a 
sleeper. 

Your  committee  did  not  inquire  into  specifications  24  and  26, 
in  which  it  is  alleged  that  the  chief  executive,  in  his  message, 
defamed  other  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  and  made 
slanderous  statements  about  them  and  the  Superintendent  of  the 
Penitentiary,  the  event  in  question  being  of  too  recent  date  to 
require  testimony  to  recall. 

In  connection  with  the  charge  that  the  Governor  made  improper 
use  of  the  contingent  fund  in  sending  a  telephone  message  to 
Flave  Carpenter,  of  Clark  County,  the  day  after  the  last  primary 
election,  promising  him  immunity  if  he  (Carpenter)  would  return 
the  vote  of  Clark  County  for  Clarke  and  Davis,  we  have  to  say 
that  your  committee  made  as  full  an  investigation  as  circum- 
stances would  permit.  Mr.  Carpenter  was  summoned  before  the 
committee  and  proved  a  very  unwilling  witness.  He  refused  to 
obey  subpoena,  but  appeared  after  the  committee  had  decided  to 
ask  the  House  to  issue  an  attachment  for  him.  He  acknowledged 


having  received  a  telephone  message  fiom  tfe»  Governor  a  day  or 
two  after  the  election,  asking  him  fcow  the  election  had  gone,  but 
beyond  this  his  evidence  was  vagii*  and  unsatisfactory. 

In  testifying  in  the  matter  of  coal  alleged  to  have  been  fur- 
nished free  to  the  Governor  by  the  T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  Company, 
R.  H.  McNair,  the  manager,  said  the  company  did,  in  the  winter 
of  1901-1902,  supply  the  residence  of  the  Governor  and  John  H. 
Page,  Purchasing  Agent  of  the  State  Board  of  Charities,  with  coal 
for  which  no  payment  had  been  made;  that  he  had  stopped  pre- 
senting the  Governor's  bill  at  the  request  of  Mr.  Page;  that  the 
latter  had  tendered  payment  for  what  had  been  furnished  him- 
self, and  had,  after  this  incident  had  become  public,  offered  to 
pay  both  bills  rather  than  have  trouble  about  it.  He  testified  ilso 
that  he  did  not  consider  the  coal  a  free  gift  to  the  parties  con- 
cerned, and  that  the  bill  against  the  Governor  stood,  in  his  opinion, 
simply  as  an  open  or  unsettled  account.  Mr.  Bunch,  principal  of 
this  company,  also  testified  that  he  had  never  furnished  the  Gov- 
ernor with  free  coal,  but  that  the  account  against  him  on  the 
books  was  simply  an  open  one. 

We  have  neither  comments  nor  suggestions  to  make  upon 
the  matters  laid  before  us  in  the  investigation,  the  same  not  being 
authorized  by  the  resolution  under  which  we  acted,  and  respectfully 
submit  these  as  our  findings  for  the  consideration  of  the  House. 

E.  M.  MERRIMAN,  Chairman, 
J.    F.    WEAVER. 
WILLIAM  FLETCHER. 
E.    M.    FUNK. 

I  concur  in  the  above  except  as  to  specifications  7  and  8. 

JOHN  H.  HOLLAND. 
PARK  CRUTCHER. 


Report  No.  2. 

(Which  Was  Adopted.) 


To   the    Speaker   of  the   House  of  Representatives   of   the  Thirty 
fourth  General  Assembly  of  the  State  of  Arkansas: 

In  accordance  with  House  resolution  adopted  February  13,  1903, 
the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  entered  upon  the  discharge  of  it* 
duties,  as  instructed  by  the  terms  of  said  resolution. 

In  inquiring  into  the  allegations  and  accusations  made  by 
Governor  Davis  in  his  message  to  the  General  Assembly  against 
the  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  other  than  himself  and  the 
specific  charges  made  against  the  Governor  by  the  other  four  mem- 
bers of  the  board,  we  have  conducted  the  same  in  meetings  open  10 
the  public,  believing  this  to  be  conducive  to  the  popular  demand. 

All  parties  to  the  controversy  being  present,  by  request  of 
the  committee  or  having  had  an  opportunity  to  be  so  present. 

Our  investigation  ranged  through  a  wide  field,  as  we  believed 
the  House  demanded  of  us  a  thorough  and  full  investigation  of  all 
matters  and  things  relating  to  said  controversy. 

As  the  resolution  requires  us  to  report  our  findings  to  the 
House  and  return  the  testimony  in  detail  with  said  report,  we  beg 
leave  to  report  that  we  herewith  return  the  testimony,  and  find 
as  follows: 

That  we  do  not  consider,  under  the  terms  of  the  resolution, 
we  have  any  authority  to  pass  upon  the  questions  as  to  whether 
the  charges  have  been  sustained  by  a  sufficiency  of  testimony, 
1}ut  that  such  action  would  be  invading  the  rights  of  the  House, 
-of  which  we  are  only  the  agents  for  the  purpose  of  eliciting  the 
testimony,  and  that  any  opinion  expressed  by  us  would  not  only 
exceed  our  delegated  authority,  but  might  have  the  effect  to 
influence  the  action  of  the  House,  who  are  the  sole  arbitrators 
-of  this  controversy. 

We  therefore  respectfully  present  this,  ourt  report,  to  the 
House  for  its  consideration,  recommending  that  the  report  and 
.accompanying  testimony  be  printed  in  pamphlet  form. 

J.    S.    ROWLAND, 
J.  M.  FUTRELL. 


Report  No.  3. 


Little   Rock,   Ark.,   April   7,    1903. 
To  the  Speaker  and  House  of  Representatives: 

We,  the  undersigned  members  of  the  Ways  and  Means  Com- 
mittee who  were  appointed  and  authorized  by  House  resolution  to 
examine  into  the  charges  and  counter-charges  of  Governor  Davis 
and  the  other  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board,  beg  leave  to 
submit  the  following  report,  to-wit: 

*  We  have  summoned  and  examined  all  witnesses  submitted  by 
the  Penitentiary  Board  and  have  made  a  very  careful  and  thorough 
investigation  as  to  whether  or  not  there  was  any  corruption  in 
the  purchase  of  the  convict  farm  known  as  the  Cummins  and 
Maple  Grove  plantations,  and  as  to  whether  or  not  articles  of 
impeachment  should  be  preferred  against  Governor  Davis.  He 
has  subpoenaed  no  witnesses,  and  our  findings  are  based  entirely 
upon  evidence  of  witnesses  submitted  by  the  other  members  of  the 
Penitentiary  Board;  and  upon  the  testimony  before  us  we  beg 
leave  to  report  that  we  do  not  find  any  corruption  on  the  part 
of  Mr.  Crockett,  Colonel  Murphy,  Colonel  Monroe  and  Mr.  Brad- 
ford in  the  purchase  of  the  said  convict  farm;  neither  do  we  find 
any  testimony  that  would  in  any  way  whatever  tend  to  criminate 
Governor  Davis  in  his  official  conduct  as  Governor,  either  in  the 
use  of  his  contingent  fund,  or  otherwise,  but  find  from  the  tes- 
timony that  he  should  be  exonerated  from  any  culpability,  mis- 
conduct or  criminality,  and  beg  to  submit  to  you  this  report  for 
adoption  or  rejection. 

Respectfully  submitted, 

B.    F.    WOFFORD, 
GEORGE  G.  STOCKARD, 
W.    W.    WHITUBY. 


Report  No.  4. 


We  cannot  concur  in  the  report  of  the  majority  of  the  Ways 
and  Means  Committee  authorized  by  House  resolution  to  inquire 
into  the  controversy,  charges  and  counter  charges  between  Gov- 
ernor Davis  and  the  other  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board, 
and  we  cite  the  following  as  some  of  our  reasons: 

We  object  to  paragraph  4  for  the  reason  that  the  evidence  and 
record  of  the  board  will  show  that  on  motion  the  board  voted  to 
restrict  the  purchase  of  a  State  convict  farm  to  the  Altheimer  and 
Beakley  places,  and  that  the  people  of  England  appeared  before 
the  board  and  gave  testimony  against  the  purchase  of  the  Beakley 
place. 

We  object  to  paragraph  5  for  the  reason  the  testimony  will 
show  that  the  $140,000  farm  purchased  was  bought  upon  one  day's 
examination  by  the  board,  and  for  the  further  reason  it  is  a  matter 
of  physical  impossibility  for  a  member  of  the  board  to  judiciously 
examine  ten  thousand  acres  of  land  in  ten  or  twelve  hours  and 
pass  judgment  on  a  deal  of  such  magnitude  with  "prudence  and 
caution." 

We  object  to  paragraph  9  for  the  reason  the  evidence  clearly 
shows  that  there  was  so  much  dissatisfaction  coming  before  the 
board  relative  to  the  mistreatment  of  convicts  in  the  camps  at 
the  time,  and  after  the  Rector  sensation,  that  the  board  was  called 
together  and  drafted  a  long  list  of  rules,  which  were  adopted, 
to  prevent  whipping  on  the  naked  back,  the  overworking  of  the 
convicts,  and  prescribing  certain  kinds  of  food  and  its  preparation. 

We  object  to  paragraph  10. 

We  object  to  paragraph  11  for  the  reason  the  evidence  will 
show  that  Governor  Davis'  agreement  with  Colonel  Monroe  was 
not  only  for  the  reason  of  securing  his  co-operation  in  the  purchase 
of  some  farm,  but  for  the  further  and  main  purpose  of  relieving 
Colonel  Monroe's  opposition  to  him  politically  in  the  last  State 
primary. 


—  14  — 

We  concur  in  paragraph  12. 

Paragraph  13  is  practically  true,  but  in  justice  does  n'ot  go 
to  the  extent  of  the  testimony,  in  that  the  evidence  shows  that 
Governor  Davis  has  paid  the  contingent  expenses  of  his  office  out 
of  his  own  pocket  since  last  November,  amounting  to  double  the 
amount  of  this  item. 

Paragraph  15  speaks  the  truth  except  in  that  it  ought  to  show 
the  Governor  was  not  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Charities,  could 
not  be  a  party  to  this  deal,  nor  by  reason  of  it  become  involved  in 
any  wrong. 

We   object   to   paragraph    16. 

We  object  to  paragraph  17  for  the  reason  there  was  no 
evidence  to  show  the  Governor  was  a  beneficiary  of  this 
free  transportation  and  knowingly  to  influence  his  action  in  the 
interests  of  the  railroad,  but  the  evidence  shows  to  the  contrary 
that  the  taxation  on  all  the  railroads  was  raised  on  the  motion 
of  Governor  Davis,  as  well  as  other  members  of  the  board,  and 
without  a  dissenting  vote,  for  $1,000  per  mile  in  value  of  the  Choc- 
taw  Railroad  and  the  other  main  lines  of  road  in  the  State. 

Summing  up  all  the  testimony,  we  offer  as  our  conclusion  that 
which  is  found  in  the  report  of  Mr.  Wofford  and  Mr.  Stockard,  which 
I  have  signed. 

W.  W.  WHITLEY. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    fleans   Committee 


ON 


Thursday,  February  19, 


1903 


INDEX. 

COLONEL  J.  C.  COLQUITT. 
GOVERNOR  JEFFERSON  DAVIS. 
MR.    H.    C.    TIPTON. 


—  17  — 

Testimony  of  witnesses  adduced  before  the  committee  on  the 
19th  day  'of  February,  1903. 

COLONEL  J.  C.  COLQUITT,  on  oath,  being  by  the  chairman 
(Hon.  E.  M.  Merriman),  first  duly  sworn,  deposed  and  testified  as 
iollows : 

Q.  (By  the  Chairman)  Your  initials  are  J.  C.,  are  they  Mr. 
Coiquitt? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Colonel    Coiquitt,    what    official    position    do    you    occupy? 

A.     Deputy  Auditor. 

Q.  In  that  position  do  you  have  charge  of  the  book  which 
shows  the  record  of  expenses  of  the  contingent  fund  of  the 
Governor? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  is^ue  the  warrants;  all  the  warrants. 

Q.     What  book  is  that,  Colonel? 

A.     The  appropriations  record. 

Q.     Have  you  got  that  book  with  you? 

A.     Yes.,   sir. 

Q.     Will  you  please  turn  to  it. 

A.     Here  is  where  the  account  commences,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Q.     On  what  page  is  that? 

A.  Page  311,  the  Governor's  contingent  account  is  first 
entered. 

Q.     Can  you  find  No.  5397? 

A.     Yes,    sir;    Jefferson   Davis,   $25. 

Q.     What  does  your  book  show  that  was  for? 

A.     The  book  don't  show. 

Q.     Have  you  anything  that  will   show? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    the  voucher. 

Q.     Please  produce  it. 

(Voucher  referred  to  is  here  produced  by  the  witness.) 

Q.     Please  read  it. 

A.  (Witness  reads  voucher.)  "State  of  Arkansas,  to  Jefferson 
Davis,  expenses  incurred  as  member  of  the  Board  of  Penitentiary 
Commissioners,  visiting  farm,,  $25.  I  certify  that  the  above  amount 
is  correct  and  payable  out  of  the  appropriation  to  pay  contin- 
gent expenses.  Jefferson  Davis." 

Q.     Is  there  an   affidavit  to  it? 

A.     Yes^  sir. 


—  18  — 

Q.     Please   read  it. 

A.  (Witness  reads  as  follows) :  "I,  Jeff  Davis,  do  solemnly 
swear  that  the  annexed  and  foregoing  account  and  demand  hereto 
attached  is  just  and  correct;  that  no  part  thereof  has  been  pre- 
viously paid.  That  the  expenses  charged  for  therein  were  actually 
furnished.  That  the  charge  made  therefor  does  not  exceed  the 
amount  allowed  by  law,  or  the  contract  under  which  the  same 
was  furnished  or  performed.  That  such  account  is  not  enlarged, 
enhanced  or  otherwise  made  greater  in  consequence  or  by  reason 
of  an  estimated  (supposed  or  real)  wrong  arising  or  growing  out 
of  any  previous  contract  or  transaction.  Jeff  Davis.  Subscribed 

and  sworn  to  before  me,  this  17th  day  of  — ,  190 — .  T.  C. 

Monroe." 

Q.  Colonel,  does  the  records  of  your  office  show  that  there 
was  any  other  sum  used  for  this  same  service  in  addition  to  that? 

A.     No,    sir.     Not   that   I    know    of. 

Q.     Nothing  on  that  book,  or  on  your  books  showing  that? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  on  the  books  of  your  office  showing 
whether  or  not  that  money  has  been  turned  back? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  to  say,  I  will  read  the  voucher  for  that 
purpose.  On  February  11,  1903,  I  have  this  entry,  "Received  of 
Governor  Davis  by  treasury  receipt  No.  5,  $25,"  and  I  have  charged 
myself  on  the  debit  side  of  the  record  with  that  item. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  read  the 
treasury  receipt? 

A.  I  haven't  got  the  treasury  receipt,  Governor.  I  suppose 
I  can  get  it.  It  is  in  the  office. 

Q.  (Mr.  Merriman)  The  treasury  receipt  was  filed  in  the 
office,  wasn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   and  that  was  the  basis  for  this  entry. 

Governor  Davis — "I  admit,  if  you  will  permit  me,  that  my 
expenses  visiting  that  farm  was  paid  back  to  me  by  Mr.  Crockett, 
but  I  failed  to  turn  it  in  until  my  attention  was  called  to  it;  if. 
that  is  satisfactory." 

Colonel  Murphy — "I  suggest  that  the  Penitentiary  Record  b« 
brought  in  and  Mr.  Crockett  be  examined." 

Q.  (Mr.  Merriman  continues  by  asking  Colonel  Colquitt  as 
follows) :  Please  turn  to  your  record  there  and  give  us  the  pagd 
of  that  $35  item? 

^A.     Page   312,  dated   JHine  30. 


—  19  — 

Q.     Read   the   entry   on  your  book? 

A.  (Reads:)  Jeff  Davis,  $35.  This  is  the  voucher  upon  which 
that  entry  was  made. 

Q.     Please  read  it. 

A.  (Reading  voucher.)  "Jeff  Davis,"  it  is  dated  June  14,  1902, 
"for  expenses  to  Fayetteville,  commencement,  $35.  I  certify  that 
the  above  account  is  correct,  and  payable  out  of  the  appropriation 
to  pay  contingent  expenses  of  the  Governor's  office.  Signed,  Jeff 
Davis." 

Q.     Is  there  an  affidavit  to  that? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     Read  it  pleiase. 

A.  "I,  Jeff  Davis,  do  solemnly  swear  that  the  annexed  and  fore- 
going account  and  demand  hereto  attached  is  just  and  correct;  that 
no  part  thereof  has  been  previously  paid.  That  the  expenses 
charged  for  therein  were  actually  furnished.  That  the  charge  made 
therefor  does  not  exceed  the  amount  allowed  by  law,  or  the 
contract  under  which  the  same  was  furnished  or  performed. 
That  such  account  is  not  enlarged,  enhanced  or  otherwise  made 
greater  in  consequence  or  by  reason  of  an  estimated  (suppose.! 
or  real)  wrong  arising  or  growing  out  of  any  previous  contract  or 
transaction.  (Signed)  Jeff  Davis.  Subscribed  and  sworn  to 
before  me  this  30th  day  of  June,  1902. 

"T.  C.  MONROE.  Auditor. 
By  J.   C.    COLQUITT,   Deputy    Auditor." 

Mr.  Merriman — As  a  part  of  the  sub-committee's  report  they 
return  with  their  report  the  following  letter: 

"Fayetteville,  Ark.,  February  13,  1903. 
"Hon.  E.  M.  Funk,  Little  Rock: 

"Dear  Sir — In  reply  to  your  letter  of  inquiry,  will  say  that 
Governor  Davis  was  paid  $35  for  expenses  in  attending  University 
of  Arkansas  board  meeting  here  in  June,  1902.  All  other  gover- 
nors have  likewise  been  paid  their  expenses  for  attending  similar 
meetings. 

"Yours  truly. 

"S.  E.  MARRS,  Secretary  of  Board." 

Q.  (Mr.  Merriman  to  Governor  Davis)  Governor,  do  you  desire 
to  see  the  letter? 


—  20  — 

A.  (Governor  Davis)  No,  sir.  That  is  all  right.  Every  word 
of  it  is  true. 

Q.  (Colonel  Murphy)  Do  you  know  what  the  expenses  of  a 
trip  to  Fayetteville  are,  Mr.  Colquitt? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     There  and  return? 

A.     No,  I  do  not.  Colonel. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  distance  from  Fayetteville  to  Little  Rock 
by  rail? 

A.  No,  I  really  can't  say  that  I  do.  I  don't  know  the  distance. 
I  have  been  to  Fayetteville,  but  it  has  been  so  long  ago  I  don't 
remember  bow  far  it  is. 

Q.  (Mr  Merriman)  Governor  Davis,  do  you  wish  to  ask  any 
more  Questions? 

A.     I  would  like  to  introduce  a  witness  on  this   subject. 

Q.  (Mr.  Whitley,  interrogating  Colonel  Colquitt)  This  $35 
item  that  you  have  of  record  there,  was  that  delivered^  to  Governor 
Davis  before  he  visited  Fayetteville  University  or  afterwards? 

A.  Well,  I  can't  say.  I  don't  know  what  day  Governor  Davis 
visited  the  University.  I  can  tell  the  date  of  the  warrant,  the 
date  the  warrant  issued  and  delivered.  The  warrant  was  issued 
•on  the  30th  day  of  June,  1902;  that  is  the  date  stamped  on  the 
warrant,  and  I  presume  it  was  delivered  at  the  same  time.  Of 
course  I  can't  remember  about  that.  But  I  either  handed  it  to 
the  Governor  or  Mr.  Jacobson;  that  is  the  usual  practice. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  What  is  the  date  of  the  voucher, 
Colonel? 

A.     The  voucher  is  dated  June  14. 

Q.  Then  how  do  you  account  for  the  fact  that  the  voucher 
was  issued  on  the  14th,  and  the  warrant  was  delivered  on  the 
80th? 

A.     TD'e  voucher  was  not  brought  down  until  the  30th. 

Q.     How  do  you  know  that? 

A.  Well,  I  keep  my  work  up,  and  the  date  of  the  entr^  on 
the  book  is  always  the  date  on  which  the  warrant  was  issued, 
and  I  am  certain  the  warrant  was  issued  June  30. 

Q.     That  would  be  sixteen  days  afterwards? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     And   that  was   sixteen   days   afterwards? 

A.  I  don't  know,  Governor,  why  the  discrepancy  occurs  In 
these  dates,  but  I  am  sure  that  the  warrant  was  issued  on  June 


—  21  — 

80.  For  the  entry  is  made  on  the  record  that  date  from  my  stub 
book,  and  the  numbers  are  in  numerical  order  and  the  dates  are. 

Mr.  Whitley — Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  been  informed  that  the 
attorneys  representing  the  different  parties  have  agreed,  or  prefer 
to  a  continuance  of  this  session  until  tomorrow  night,  and  I  move 
you,  sir,  that  we  now  adjourn  until  tomorrow  night. 

Governor  Davis — I  have  a  witness  here  in  the  room  that  I 
would  like  to  examine. 

Mr.  Whitley — I  withdraw  my  motion. 

JEFFERSON  DAVIS,  deposed  and  testified  as  follows,  after 
which  he  was  duly  sworn  by  the  chairman  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  may  be  able  to  shorten  this  matter.  I 
drew  from  my  contingent  $25  when  we  visited  the  different  farms 
in  August.  I  had  no  money,  and  no  bank  account.  I  went  with 
these  gentlemen,  members  of  the  board,  to  visit  the  farm,  Red 
Leaf.  I  told  several  members  of  the  board  at  the  time  that  I 
would  go  with  them  as  a  matter  of  courtesy,  but  never  had  any 
idea  of  ever  having  to  buy  that  farm.  It  was  too  far  away,  and 
not  sufficient  acreage  to  enable  working  all  the  convicts.  When 
we  got  to  Lake  Village,  after  we  had  examined  the  farm,  we 
estimated  our  expenses,  and  took  stock  of  how  much  money  each 
one  had.  Colonel  Murphy  said  he  had  spent  so  much,  Mr.  Crockett 
said  he  had  spent  so  much,  Judge  Hill  said  he  had  spent  so  much, 
Captain  Monroe  said  he  had  spent  so  much,  and  I  said  I  had 
spent  so  much.  We  found  on  an'  examination  of  our  finances  that 
I  had  a  little  more  money  than  the  balance — I  had  paid  a  little 
more  expense  than  the  rest;  and  I  paid  the  bill  there.  Mr. 
Crockett's  itemized  account  showed  that  each  had  spent  so  much, 
and  I  think  the  aggregate  that  we  had  spent  was  something 
like  $70.  I  believe  there  was  some  discussion  as  to  whether  our 
contingent  fund  should  bear  this  expense,  and  it  was  finally 
agreed  that  as  this  was  penitentiary  business  that  our  expenses 
should  come  out  of  the  Penitentiary  Fund,  and  I  think  it  was  so 
understood.  Each  of  us  gave  Mr.  Crockett  an  itemized  account 
of  his  expenses;  I  know  I  did  anyway.  Afterwards,  I  don't  know 
how  long,  Mr.  Crockett  came  to  me,  if  my  recollection  serves  me 
ri^ht;  and  handed  me  some  $22  or  $23;  I  put  it  in  my  pocket,  and 
I  told  Mr.  Jacobson  to  make  an  entry  on  the  credit  side  of  the 
contingent  fund,  and  take  it  out  of  my  salary,  and  I  thought  it 
had  been  done  until  this  matter  arose;  my  attention  being  called 
to  it  by  Colonel  Murphy's  speech;  no  not  by  Colonel  Murphy's 


speech,  but  by  a  rumor  that  was  floating  on  the  street;  and  if 
the  chairman  of  this  committee  does  not  object,  I  can  state  how 
I  came  to  know.  I  asked  the  chairman  'of  the  committee  as  to 
the  letter  that  Colonel  Murphy  had  written  the  committee  about 
this  matter,  and  the  chairman  told  me  about  these  circumstances. 
That  was  the  first  knowledge  I  had  that  that  had  not  been  turned 
back.  I  immediately  turned  it  back  out  of  my  salary.  That  may 
shorten  the  matter,  if  that  is  what  you  want,  and  that  I  will 
swear  to. 

H.  C.  TIPTON,  on  oath,  being  by  the  chairman  first  duly  sworn, 
deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Colonel  Tipton  was  introduced  by  Governor  Davis,  and  the 
examination  proceeded  as  follows: 

Q.  (Governor  Davis)  What  official  position  do  you  occupy, 
Colonel? 

A.     State  Treasurer. 

Q.  As  such  do  you  have  the  paying  of  the  vouchers  issued 
by  the  Governor  upon  his  salary  or  contingent  account  or  other 
things? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    we  call  them  warrants. 

Q.     You  have  the  paying  of  the  warrants? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  you  remember  sometime  in  July — June 
or  July,  1902,  of  my  having  called  your  attention  to  the  fact  that 
I  had  drawn  a  warrant  on  my  contingent  fund  for  $35  expenses 
going  to  Fayetteville  to  the  commencement  exercises  of  the  col- 
lege, and  asked  you  to  deduct  it  out  of  my  salary  for  that  month, 
and  credit  it  to  the  contingent  iund? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     Do   you  remember  that   I   asked   you   about   if? 

A.  I  will  just  make  a  statement  here.  The  Governor  came 
to  me — I  think  it  was  about  that  time;  I  don't  just  remember — 
and  he  told  me  that  he  was  going  to  the  University,  and  what 
t  think  he  said  was  that  he  was  out  of  money  and  would  draw 
on  his  contingent  fund  for  that  amount,  and  that  I  should  deduct 
it  out  of  his  salary  at  the  end  of  the  month,  and  I  told  him  1 
would  do  it. 

Q.     Did   you  do  it? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  I  did  or  not,  Governor.  I  asked 
Mr.  Yates  about  it,  and  he  doesn't  have  any  recollection  of  it.  You 
see  Mr.  Yates  is  my  deputy  and  cashier.  And  when  Mr.  Jacobson 


—  23  — 

came  down  to  the  office  to  draw  the  Governor's  salary,  if  he 
didn't  call  Mr.  Yates'  attention  to  it,  perhaps  it  was  overlooked. 
I  say  this,  and  I  am  willing  to  swear  to  it,  that  the  understanding 
between  the  Governor  and  myself  was  that  it  was  to  be  taken 
out  of  his  salary  at  the  end  of  the  month,  but  I  failed  to  remember 
it  at  the  time,  and  I  talked  with  Mr.  Yates  about  it,  and  he  hasn  t 
any  recollection  of  it,  and  I  don't  go  in  there  often  myself,  and  he 
maybe  didn't  mention  the  matter. 

Q.  To  refreshen  your  memory,  Colonel,  afterwards,  don't  you 
remember  of  my  asking  you  if  it  had  been  done;  if  it  had  been 
taken  out  of  my  salary,  and  you  told  me  that  it  was? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     And   didn't  you  say  you  would? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I  was  so  certain  that  Mr.  Yates  understood 
the  matter  between  us — 

Q.  And  I  asked  you  if  you  had  taken  it  out,  and  you  said 
you  had? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  my  understanding,  that  it  had  been 
done. 

Q.     You   didn't   know   really   whether  it  had   or  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

« 

Q.  You  know  this,  Colonel,  that  it  has  not  been  credited  back 
to  the  contingent  fund,  don't  you? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  May  not  that,  have  occurred  in  this  way:  might  not  that 
have  been  credited  to  the  General  Revenue  Fund,  and  wasn't  cred- 
ited to  the  contingency  fund,  so  there  would  be  no  means  of  detect- 
ing it? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  If  Mr.  Yates  had  drawn  it,  he  would  have  been 
long  $35  that  night. 

Q.     You  thought  it  had  been  done? 

A.     Yes,   sir;    I   thought   it  had. 

Q.     You  don't  know  yet  but  what  it  has? 

A.     Of   course   I    can't    swear    that. 

Q.  At  any  rate  to  be  plain  about  it,  1  told  you  immediately 
afterwards  to  take  it  out  of  my  salary,  and  you  said  you  did? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     I  know   it  should  have  been  taken  out. 

Q.     I  asked  you  if  you  had  taken  it  out,  and  you  said  you  had? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  I  told  you  that  and  I  thought  that  it  had  been  donei, 


—  24  — 

Q.  (Mr.  Merriman)  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you 
don't  know  whether  it  was  taken  out  of  his  salary  or  not? 

A.     Well,   I  don't  know;    no,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  this  was  paid  when  he  drew 
his  salary — when  he  drew  his  salary,  do  you  know  whether  he  drew 
the  full  amount  he  was  accustomed  to  draw? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  can't  tell  you,  Judge,  because  Mr.  Yates  is  my 
cashier  and  deputy;  I  can't  tell  you. 

Q.  Since  your  attention  has  been  called  to  this  matter  by  the 
Governor,  or  whoever  it  was,  haven't  you  made  an  investigation 
of  the  books  in  your  office  to  discover  this  matter? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  but  there  is  nothing  to  show  it. 

Q.  How  is  it  that  you  are  not  able  to  tell  this  committee 
whether  that  amount  was  taken  out  of  the  Governor's  salary  or 
not,  if  you  have  examined  your  books? 

A.     The  books  don't  state  anything  about  it  at  all. 

Q.  When  the  Governor's  salary  is  paid  to  him  don't  you  keep 
a  record  of  it  in  your  books? 

A.  No,  sir;  the  warrant  is  all  that  we  have.  The  warraftt 
is  the  record  of  that.  If  the  Governor  presented  his  warrant  for 
$250,  I  would  have  deducted  the  $35  out  of  it,  and  paid  him  the 
balance.  Then  if  I  attended  to  my  business  I  would  go  right 
.straight  and  issue  a  receipt  to  the  Governor  and  credit  the  Gov- 
ernor with  it,  you  know,  and  put  it  in  the  contingent  fund.  There 
is  no  record  of  it  at  all. 

Q.     No  record  made  of  that  transaction? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  do  you  tell  this  committee  that  if  you  paid  Gov- 
ernor Davis  his  full  salary  succeeding  this  transaction  that  there 
:is  no  record  in  your  office  to  show  it? 

A.     None  at  all. 

Q.     Do  you  know  whether  you  did  or  n'ot? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  have  no  idea,  but  Mr.  Yates  might  tell 
you  that.  He  may  be  able  to;  I  don't  know;  I  can't.  1  am  not 
the  paying  teller,  and  there  is  no  record  made  'of  it  at  all.  I  get 
in  the  warrant,  and  I  get  credit  for  it. 

Q.  Well,  if  you  had  taken  out  this  $35,  what  would  have  been 
your  mode  of  procedure? 

A.  If  I  did  it  wouldn't  show.  If  we  had  done  so,  it  would  have 
been  tt^  duty  of  Mr.  Yates  to  go  right  straight  to  Mr.  Massey 
and  tell  him  to  issue  a  receipt  to  Governor  Davis,  and  credit  it 
rto  the  contingent  fund;  then  it  would  have  been  charged  to  me. 


Q.  (../  Governor  Davis)  If  that  had  been  done,  Colonel  Tip- 
ton,  whose  neglect  was  it,  yours  or  mine?  Didn't  you  promise  me 
that  you  would? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     And  didn't  you  afterwards  tell  me  that  you  had? 

A.  Perhaps  both  of  our  neglect;  I  know  it  was  mine  for  one. 
I  know  I  should  have  done  s'o. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Colonel  Tipton,  on  what  do  you 
pay  the  Governor's  salary? 

A.     On   the  Auditor's   warrant. 

Q.  Did  that  warrant  ever  come  to  you  credited  with  $35  or 
any  other  sum? 

A.     None   tliat  I   know   of. 

Q.  Did  the  Governor  at  any  time  present  any  warrant  there 
and  ask  y  a  to  credit  that  with  $35,  or  to  pay  it  after  deducting  $35? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  warrant  authorizing  the  payment  of  the 
salary  comes  from  the  Auditor? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How   often? 

A.     Once  a  month. 

Q.  Did  a  warrant  ever  come  to  your  office  for  less  than  the 
regular  installment  of  his  salary? 

A.  Well,  I  can't  answer  that,  I  don't  think  so,  but  I  can't 
answer  positively. 

Q.  Is  not  there  something  in  your  books  to  show  whether  it 
did  or  n(ot? 

A.     Yes,    sir;    our    books   will   show   it.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  The  Governor  then  presents  to  the  Auditor  the  voucher 
for  his  monthly  salary  does  he  not? 

A.     Well,  I  suppose  so. 

Q.     He   took    that   to    the   Auditor? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  this  $35  was  drawn  what  evidence  was  left  there 
that  it  was  from  the  contingent  fund,  and  was  to  be  deducted 
out  of  the  Governor's  salary  afterwards? 

A.  The  Auditor's  warrant,  I  guess.  I  don't  remember  about 
that.  I  suppose  the  Governor  presented  his  warrant  and  said  he 
wanted  $35.  I  was  in  error  in  this;  I  paid  the  Governor  $35  en  his 
voucher  for  the  warrant  on  his  contingent  fund. 


-26- 

Q.  Do  you  tell  the  committee  that  he  came  and  told  you  that 
he  was  going  to  draw  $35  out  of  the  contingent  fund,  and  that 
you  permitted  him  to  do  it? 

A.  Why,  I  didn't  permit  him  to  do  it,  but  there  was  a  warrant 
there. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  he  told  you  that  he  was  not  entitled 
to  draw  that  amount  of  money  from  the  contingent  fund,  but  would 
do  so,  and  that  you  were  to  deduct  it  out  of  his  salary  afterwards? 

A.  He  didn't  say  he  was  not  entitled  to  do  it:  he  said  he 
wanted  to  draw  that,  and  that  he  would  pay  it  out  of  his  salary 
at  the  end  of  the  month. 

Q.  And  you  permitted  that  to  be  done  without  taking  any 
evidence  that  it  was  to  be  deducted  out  of  his  salary? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  And  yet  you  made  those  payments  on  warrants  issued  by 
the  Auditor;  is  that  a  fact? 

A.     I  don't  know  whether  I  understand  you,   Colonel,  or  not. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  that  sum  of  $35  on  a  warrant  issued  by  the 
Auditor? 

A.     I  think  I  did.     I  am  not  sure,  but  I  think  I  did. 

Q.     To    whom   did   you   pay   it? 

A.     I  paid   it  to  Governor  Davi 

Q.     Sure? 

A.     I  think  I  did. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  you  didn't  pay  it  to  Charlie  Watkins  or 
Charlie  Jacobson? 

A.  I  am  not  sure  about  it  now;  I  wouldn't  be  certain.  It 
has  been  a  long  time  since  that  was  done. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  reason  why  the  Governor  should  tell 
you  when  he  brought  the  warrant  there  for  that  money  that  you 
were  to  take  it  out  of  his  salary  afterwards? 

A.     No,   sir;    I  don't  know   of  any   reason  at  all. 

Q.  Can  you  say  that  he  did  tell  you  to  take  this  out  of  his 
salary  afterwards? 

A.  I  certainly  say  that  he  did;  and  I  emphatically  say  that 
he  did. 

Q.     Have  you  the  warrant  on  which  he  drew  that  money? 

A.  I  don't  know,  for  at  the  end  of  the  quarter  these  warrants 
are  burned. 

Q.     At  the  end   of  each   quarter? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.    Do  you  recollect  what  that  warrant  stated? 


—  27  — 

A.     You  know,  Colonel,  that   I  can't  tell   anything  about  that. 

Q.  But  I  do  not  know.  Colonel  Tipton,  what  is  the  amount 
of  the  monthly  warrants  that  Governor  Davis  gets? 

A.     Why   he   gets   two   warrants,   I  believe. 

Q.     For  his  salary? 

A.     $250. 

Q.  Now,  if  I  understand,  it  is  the  duty  of  Governor  Davis  to 
go  to  the  Auditor  and  procure  his  warrant,  is  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    or  he  sends  down  after  it;    sends  his  secretary. 

Q.     Well,  no  matter  who  gets  it,  it  comes  from  the  Auditor? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  If  he  brought  an  Auditor's  warrant  for  $35  on  this  account, 
how  did  you  intend  to  take  this  $35  out  of  his  salary;  what  was 
the  understanding  between  you  and  Governor  Davis? 

A.     Just  to  pay  the  warrant  minus  the  $35. 

Q.  You  were  to  take  out  $35  out  of  his  salary  at  the  end  of 
the  month? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     And  turned  it  into  the  Auditor's  office? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  credited  it  back  on  the  contingent  fund,  and 
gave  him  my  receipt  for  the  $35.  I  say  I  don't  know  that  it  was 
done,  because  Mr.  Yates  was  attending  to  these  things. 

Q.     But  you   did   advance  him  this   $35,  did  you? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  Was  that  taken  out  of  the  State  funds,  or  was  it 
your  individual  money? 

A.     Out  of   the   Auditor's    warrant;    $35. 

Q.     Did  you  advance  him  the  money? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   on  the  Auditor's  warrant — 

Q.  There  wasn't  any  Auditor's  warrant  in  existence  then  was 
there? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  had  the  Auditor's  warrant  for  $35;  I  tell  you  I 
don't  know  about  all  these  things;  Mr.  Yates— 

Q.  I  asked  you  whether  he  presented  you  the  Auditor's  war- 
rant for  $35? 

A.     Yes,    sir;    that   is    my   understanding. 

Q.     Do  you  know  that  to  be  a  fact? 

A.  Judge,  it  has  been  so  long  ago,  I  don't  really  say;  it 
has  been  about  one  year  ago.  He  could  have  drawn  it  on  the 
Auditor's  warrant  for  $35,  or  he  could  have  come  to  me  and  said 


—  28  — 

I  want  $35,  and  I  would  have  let  him  have  it  and  put  a  tag  in 
the  drawer,  something  of  that  sort;  I  would  do  this  more  as  a 
matter  of  accommodation — 

Q.     He  might  have  gotten  it  the  latter  way? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  Then  you  would  have  advanced  him  $35  of  the  State's 
money  on  merely  a  tag  made  in  the  drawer? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    I  guess   that  is  what  you  might  call  it,  Judge. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Tipton,  I  see  now  how  the 
discrepancy  in  the  dates  might  have  occurred.  Suppose  that  that 
warrant  was  issued  on  the  14th  of  June — I  mean  the  voucher  drawn 
by  me— that  my  voucher  was  dated  the  14th  of  June,  and  I  brought 
the  voucher  down  to  you  and  handed  it  to  you,  and  told  you  to 
advance  me  $35  out  of  my  contingent  fund,  and  take  this  voucher 
to  the  Auditor  for  the  warrant,  then  might  you  not  have  presented 
the  voucher  to  the  Auditor  and  go^  the  warrant? 

A.     I  don't  know  about  that.     I  could  have  done   so. 

Q.  Take  it  into  the  treasurer,  and  at  the  end  of  the  month 
deduct  it  from  my  salary? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  could  have  done  it.     I  don't  know  that  I  did  it. 

Q.  But  the  fact  remains,  nevertheless,  that  I  told  you  to 
deduct  it  out  of  my  salary,  and  you  told  me  you  would  do  it? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.    And  you  told  me  afterwards  that  you  had  done  it? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  Now,  can  you  say  to  this  committee  that  you  have  not 
taken  it  out  of  my  salary. 

A.     I  don't  believe  I  have. 

Q.     What   is    your   best  judgment   about   it? 

A.     My   judgment   is    that   I   have   not. 

Q.     Your   best  judgment  is   that  you  have   not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  because  when  I  spoke  to  Mr.  Yates  about  it  he 
did  not  recollect — 

Q.  Might  you  not  have  done  that  in  this  way;  might  you  not 
have  credited  it  to  some  other  fund,  and  there  would  be  nothing 
on  the  books  to  show  it? 

A.     It   is    possible,    but   not   probable. 

Q.  Then  how  is  it  that  you  happened  to  tell  me  that  you  had 
taken  it  out  of  my  salary? 

A.  Just  simply  because  I  thought  Mr.  Yates  understood  the 
matter,  and  that  he  had  done  it. 


—  29  - 

Q.     You  led  me  to  believe  that  the  transaction   was   closed? 
A.     Yes,  sir.     I  thought  Mr.  Yates  understood  the  matter  and 
that   it  had   been   done. 

Q.  But  this  was  a  personal  agreement  between  you  and  me, 
and  not  between  me  and  Mr.  Yates? 

A.     Yes.  .sir. 
Q.     And  you  led  me  to  believe  that  it  had  been  done? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  How  were  you  authorized  to  pay 
money  out  of  the  treasury,  on  what? 

A.     On   Auditor's   warrants. 

Q.  Arid  now  do  you  say  that  it  is  probable  that  the  Governor 
came  there  and  got  money  from  you,  and  that  you  paid  him  money 
on  something  short  of  an  Auditor's  warrant — something  besides 
a  warrant? 

A.     I  didn't  say  it  was  probable,  I  said  I  might  have  done  it. 

Q.  Would  you  have  paid  it  out  on  anything  but  an  Auditor's 
warrant,  knowing  the  law  as  you  do? 

A.  Well,  I  will  say  this;  it  has  been  the  custom  of  that  office 
ever  since  £  have  had  any  connection  with  it,  that  whenever  a 
State  officer  came  in  there  and  wanted  to  draw  a  little  money — 
why  it  was  due  him  of  course — and  he  wanted  to  draw  a  little 
money,  I  would  take  his  statement  to  the  Auditor,  and  just  pay 
him  that  much;  or  I  would  tag  it  and  put  it  in  the  drawer  and 
let  him  have  a  few  dollars.  For  instance,  if  you  were  wanting 
some  money  before  you  would  get  your  salary,  and  would  come 
in  there  and  want  to  draw  a  little  on  it,  it  has  been  the  habit  of 
our  office  and  a  custom  to  advance  you  a  small  amount,  and  just 
put  a  tag  in  the  drawer,  on  your  voucher,  and  d3duct  it  out  at 
the  end  of  the  month.  Take  it  out  of  your  salary. 

Q.     You  haven't  advanced  me  any  did  you? 

A.     Well,  if  I  havent,  you  are  about  the  only  one. 

Q.  You  know  whether  you  have  or  not;  you  say  me.  I  want 
to  ask  you  now  if  you  ever  advanced  me  anything? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  I  have  never  asked  you  for  anything, 
sir? 

A.  1  don't  know  that.  There  are  a  few;  perhaps  one  or  two, 
you  and  one  or  two  others. 

Colonel  Murphy — Well,  you  illustrate  it  by  referring  to  me; 
hence  you  force  me  to  ask  you  that  question,  sir. 


—  30  — 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  You  never  let  anyone  have  any  more 
than  was  due  them? 

A.     No,  sir;    not  as  much.     It  is  a  matter  of  custom — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  Colonel  Tipton,  is  it  not  a  common 
practice,  generally  understood  in  the  Treasurer's  office,  to  cash 
the  certificates  of  the  Chief  Clerk  of  the  House  on  these  vouchers? 

A.  Well,  we  could  do  it;  yes,  sir.  That  is  a  custom.  You 
could  bring  in  a  voucher  of  that  sort — say  it  was  late  in  the  after- 
noon, and  the  Auditor's  office  closed,  or  the  Auditor  was  absent, 
something  of  that  sort,  and  we  would  advance  the  money  and 
take  it  in  in  the  morning  and  have  the  warrant  issued. 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     Hasn't  that  been  done? 

A.    Well,   yes,    sir;    has   been. 

Q.     And  this  session? 

A.  I  think  it  has  been  done  this  session.  I  will  not  swear 
to  it;  but  I  am  pretty  sure  it  has. 

Q.     It  is  just  a  matter  of  custom,  and  not  one  of  bookkeeping? 

A.    That  is  all. 

An  adjournment  was  here  taken  until  7:30  o'clock  p.  m,,  OB 
the  20th  day  of  February.  1903. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways   and    Means   Committee 


ON 


Friday,  February  20, 
1903 


INDEX. 

JOHN  W.  CROCKETT. 

J.  L.  YATES. 

GOVERNOR  JEFFERSON  DAVIS. 

COLONEL  J.  C.  COLQUITT. 


—  33—    ' 

Testimony  of  witnesses  adduced  before  the  committee  at  the 
session  commencing  at  7:30  o'clock  p.  m.,  on  the  20th  day  of  Feb- 
ruary, 1903. 

JOHN  W.  CROCKETT,  on  oath  being  by  the  chairman  first  duly 
sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Chairman  Merriman)  Please  state  your  name  and 
your  official  position? 

A.     My  name  is  John  W.  Crockett;  I  am  Secretary  of  State. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  you  are  the  secretary  of  the  Penitentiary 
Board? 

A.     Yes,  sir.  I  am. 

Q.  As  such  secretary  you  keep  the  records  of  the  proceed- 
ings of  said  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Have  you  got  your  books  of  record  with  you,  Mr.  Crockett? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  refer  to  that  book  and  the  item  with  reference  to 
the  warrant  issued  relating  to  the  payment  that  was  made  to  Gover- 
nor Davis  on  account  of  a  visit  to  the  farm,  in  which  it  was  claimed 
that  he  drew  for  the  same  thing  twice? 

A.  I  have  no  record  of  that,  Judge.  I  maybe  kept  a  little  record, 
or  a  little  memorandum  I  have  in  a  check  book — stub  book. 

Q.     Have  you  that  stub  book  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Please  refer  to  it  and  read  it? 

A.  Dated  September  5,  1901.  To  Jeff  Davis,  amount  of  this 
check  ?22.20. 

Q.     Nothing  else  on  it? 

A.    Well,  I  have  got  a  statement  cf  my  bank  account. 

Q.     Well,  you  need  not  read  that. 

A.  I  can  read  it.  Date  of  check  September  5,  1901;  Jeff  Davis, 
balance  brought  forward  $90.84.  total  $90.84,  amount  of  this  check 
$22.20,  balance  carried  forward  $68.64. 

Q.  Now  Mr.  Crockett,  will  you  please  state  the  circumstances 
surrounding  the  payment  of  that? 

A.  Well  sir,  we  had — Governor  Davis,  Colonel  Murphy,  Mr. 
Monroe,  Judge  Hill  and  myself — had  visited  the  Red  Leaf  planta- 
tion in  Chicot  County,  and  on  our  return  frcm  the  trip  I  think  1  went 
around  to  each  member  of  the  board  and  got  a  statement  of  the 

Testimony— 2. 


—  34  — 

amount  of  their  expenses  down  there — the  amount  each  one  was  out, 
and  reported  the  matter  to  the  Financial  Agent,  along  about  the 
last  of  August,  I  think.  The  total  amount  of  the  expenses  was  $70.40. 
I  reported  the  matter  to  the  Financial  Agent  and  he  gave  me  his 
check  on  some  bank  and  I  deposited  it  in  the  Bank  of  Commerce  and 
drew  checks  payable  to  the  members  of  the  board  for  the  amount 
that  they  were  out.  That  is  about  all  there  is  to  it. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Do  you  remember  the  date  that  we 
started  from  Little  Rock  on  that  tour  of  inspection? 

A.  I  don't  remember  the  date,  Colonel;  it  was  as  near  as  I  can 
recollect  about  tEe  last  of  August  or  the  first  of  September.  I  don't 
know  the  date  of  that  inspection  to  be  positive  about  it,  but  it 
was  eifner  the  last  of  August  or  the  first  of  September. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  the  resolution  under  which  we 
visited  that  farm  provided  for  the  payment  of  the  expenses  of  the 
Penitentiary  Board.? 

A.     Yes.  sir.  it  did. 

Q.  Turn  to  the  entry— the  13th  of  August,  1901— and  read  it, 
please. 

A.     Do  you  want  all  of  the  minutes  read? 

Q.  Read  enough  to  show  who  was  present  and  showing  that 
part  of  the  resolution. 

A.  Record,  Board  of  Penitentiary  Commissioners.  The  page 
of  the  minutes  is  256.  "August  13,  1901.  The  State  Penitentiary 
Board  met  at  the  Governor's  office  at  ten  o'clock  a.  m. ;  the  following 
members  present  at  the  meeting:  Governor  Davis,  Attorney  General 
Murphy,  Secretary  of  State  Crockett,  Commissioner  of  Mines  and 
Manufactures  Hill,  Auditor  Monroe.  Now  do  you  want  all  of  the 
minutes  read  down? 

Q.     No,  only  the  part  for  the  charges  of  inspection  of  the  farm. 

A.  On  motion  the  board  decided  to  visit  and  inspect  the  lands 
offered  for  sale  by  the  following  parties:  J.  M.  and  J.  G.  Taylor, 
lands  in  "Lincoln  and  Drew  counties;  Louis  Altheimer,  lands  in  Jeff- 
erson County;  N.  B.  Beakley, -lands  in  Lonoke  County;  Jarred  Mar- 
tin, lands  in  Lincoln  county;  John  N.  Hardie  &  Sons,  land  in  Chicot 
County;  the  expenses  of  said  inspection  to  be  paid  out  of  the  Pen- 
tentiary  Fund. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  if  there  was  any  particular  course  to  be 
pursued  in  that  inspection  where  the  board  was  to  commence  and 
where  to  end;  I  mean  with  which  farm  it  was  to  commence? 


—  35  - 

A.  I  don't  remember  as  to  that,  Colonel,  but  I  think  we  visited 
the  Altheimer  farm  first. 

Q.     Who  were  present  when  that  resolution  was  passed? 

A.  Governor  Davis,  the  Attorney  General,  Secretary  of  State, 
the  Auditor,  Commissioner  of  Manufactures  and  Mines. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  upon  whose  suggestion  it  was  that  the 
question  as  to  whether  the  board  would  pay  the  expenses  was  raised, 
about  the  expenses,  I  mean? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  can't  say  positively  as  to  that,  Colonel. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  we  left  here  to  make  that  inspec- 
tion on  the  18th  of  August  or  not? 

A.  I  can't  say  as  to  that  date,  Colonel;  sometime,  is  my  recol- 
lection, about  the  latter  part  of  August  or  the  first  part  of  September. 
That  is  my  recollection  about  it,  but  I  am  judging  that  more  from 
this  entry  on  this  stub  book,  where  I  paid  the  expenses.  I  don't 
remember  the  date.  I  am  a  very  poor  hand  to  remember  dates. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  you  paid  to  each  member  of  the 
board  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  it  on  my  check  book  here.  I  paid  George 
W.  Murphy  $12  50,  Monroe  $15.35,  Hill  $5  and  myself  $15.35. 

Q.     Did  all  the  board  return  home  together  or — 

A.  No,  sir.  Governor  Davis  and  I  came  back  together;  the 
remainder  of  the  board  stayed  down  at  Lake  Village. 

Q.     Did  we  ever  inspect  the  farms  of  Taylor  and  Martin? 

A.     I  never  did;  no,  sir. 

Q.     Was  the  further  inspection  abandoned,  do  you  know? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   that  is  my  recollection  of  it. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Crockett,  you  paid  that  expense 
you  think  on  the  5th  of  September? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Did  you  give  me  a  check  or  give  me  the  money? 

A.     I  gave  you  a  check  for  it. 

Q.     Are  you  sure  of  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  My  recollection  of  it,  if  it  serves  me  right,  is  that  you  gave 
me  the  money. 

A.     This  is  the  stub  end  of  the  check. 

Q.     That  shows  the  stub  of  the  check  you  gave  me? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  36  — 

Q.     Then  you  paid  me  by  check? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Now  you  say  that  was  on  the  5th  of  September? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  when  we  went  down  there? 

A.  It  was  the  last  of  August  or  the  first  of  September;  that 
is  as  near  as  I  can  recollect  it  now. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  at  the  time  this  resolution  was  passed 
saying  that  we  should  be  paid  out  of  the  penitentiary  fund,  if  the 
question  did  not  arise  before  the  board  as  to  which  fund  ft  should 
come  out  of,  whether  our  contingent  fund  or  the  penitentiary  fund? 

A.     I  don't  have  any  recollection  of  that. 

Q.  To  refresh  your  memory,  I  will  ask  you  then  if  some 
member  of  the  board  didn't  say  that  the  penitentiary  fund  should 
bear  this  expense,  as  it  was  work  for  the  penitentiary  and  should 
be  paid  out  of  the  penitentiary  fund,  rather  than  out  of  our  con- 
tingent fund? 

A.     I   don't  remember  about  that. 

Q.  Well,  when  we  went  down  to  examine  the  Red  Leaf  place 
and  came  back  to  Lake  Village  we  stopped  with  Mrs. —  -  do  you 
remember  the  ladies'  name — anyway,  the  widow  lady  that  was 
keeping  the  boarding  house.  Do  you  remember  the  morning  we 
went  out  on  the  porch  and  just  took  a  cash  account  of  how  much 
cash  each  one  had  on  hand? 

A.     I  don't  remember  now,  Governor,  about  that. 

Q.  You  don't  remember  that  out  on  the  porch  we  took  account 
of  how  much  cash  each  one  had  on  hand? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  and  me  and  Judge  Hill  and  Captain  Monroe? 

A.     We  may  have  done  it.       1  don't  remember. 

Q.  Don't  you  remember  distinctly  that  I  paid  all  of  the  board 
bill  at  Lake  Village? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  don't  remember.  I  know  some  of  us  paid  at  one 
place  and  some  at  another. 

Q.  When  we  got  back  to  Lake  Village  don't  you  remember 
when  we  figured  up  as  to  how  much  money  each  had  on  hand  it 
turned  out  that  I  had  the  most  money,  and  so  I  paid  the  board  bill 
at  Lake  Village? 

A.     No,  sir. 


—  37  — 

Q.    Don't  you  remember  any  of  those  things? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  I  estimated  that  I  had  spent  $22 
and  you  all  had  spent  but  $15? 

A.  I  suppose  you  estimated  that  you  had  been  out  more  than 
we  had. 

Q.     That  is  what  1  am  trying  to  get  at. 

A.     I  can't  tell  you  how  you  estimated  it  now,  Governor. 

Q.  Don't  you  remember  that  we  came  out  on  the  front  porch 
of  that  lady's  house,  you  and  Judge  Hill  and  Captain  Monroe  and 
myself,  and  each  one  took  out  his  money  to  see  how  much  we  had, 
and  Judge  Hill  only  had  a  few  dollars,  and  I  had  $25 — that  is  what 
I  had — and  didn't  I  pay  the  board  to  the  lady  there? 

A.     I  don't  remember  whether  you  did  or  not,  now. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  There  is  no  question  but  what  you 
paid  the  Governor  this  $22.20.  is  there? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  we  got  done  with  the  trip  all  of  the  items  of 
expense  were  furnished  you  and  you  came  back  and  filed  an  itemized 
statement  of  the  expenses? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  the  Committee)  In  counting  up  the  amount  you  got 
the  statement  of  each  member's  expenses  on  the  trip — just  exactly 
what  they  expended  it  for — what  they  expended  on  that  trip? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  Governor  was  treated  just  the  same  as  the  rest  of 
the  members  of  the  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Well,  the  items — didn't  each  give  you 
the  items  of  his  expense? 

A.  I  think  I  had  a  statement  showing  so  much  railroad  fare 
and  so  on.  I  didn't  know  I  had  this  thing;  I  never  thought  any  more 
about  it.  I  had  forgotten  about  this  thing,  and  I  just  happened  to 
find  that  little  check  book  in  a  little  pigeon  hole  in  my  desk.  I 
usually  throw  these  things  away. 

Q.     The  stub  book  gives  these  dates? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  5th  of  September,  1901. 

Q.  (By  the  Committee)  Did  you  make  this  statement  aftef 
you  came  back  to  your  office  from  these  farms  or  before? 


—  38  — 

A.  After  I  came  back.  I  couldn't  make  it  before,  because  I 
wouldn't  know  how  much  it  would  be. 

Q.  You  had  your  own  money  that  you  spent  on  that  trip,  and 
you  just  submitted  your  itemized  bills  when  you  •  came  back? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

J.  L.  YATES,  on  oath  being  by  the  chairman  of  the  committee 
first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)     What  is  your  initials,  Mr.  Yates? 

A.     J.  L. 

Q.     What  official  position  are  you  in? 

A.     Deputy  Treasurer,  or  Cashier. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  held  that  position? 

A.     Commenced  last  April  a  year  ago,  I  believe. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  circumstances  of  Governor  Davis 
being  advanced  $35? 

A.     Only  from  the  memoranda  made  on  the  voucher. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  circumstances  of  it,  how  they  were 
made  up? 

A.  I  made  a  memorandum  that  I  advanced  him  money  on 
that. 

Q.  I  asked  you  if  you  remembered  the  circumstances  of  that 
transaction? 

A.  I  do  only  by  noting  the  amount  of  the  figures  as  shown  on 
that  voucher. 

Q.     Then  you  remember  the  circumstances? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Please  state  to  this  committee  all  the  circumstances  that 
were  connected  with  the  advancing  of  that  $35. 

A.  About  all  the  circumstances  that  I  know  is  that  he  just  came 
down  there  with  that  voucher  and  asked  for  $35  on  it. 

Q.     What  kind  of  a  voucher? 

A.     A  voucher  on  his    contingent  fund. 

Q.     His  own  voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     On  the  contingent  fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    What  did  he  say  when  he  presented  the  voucher?      -  • 

A.     He  asked  for  $35  on  that  voucher. 


—  39  — 

Q.     Did  you  pay  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Was  there  any  Auditor's  warrant  accompanying  if? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    TTow  did  you  come  to  pay  it  without  the  Auditor's  warrant? 

A.  Just  overlooked  asking  for  it,  but  went  down  to  the 
Auditor's  office  afterward  and  got  the  warrant. 

Q.  Well  if  I  was  to  come  In  there  and  ask  you  for  money  and 
gave  you  a  voucher  would  you  give  it  to  me? 

A.     If  you  were  a  State  official.     If  you  were  not  I  wouldn't. 

Q.     How  did  you  come  to  pay  this  voucher  of  the  Governor's? 

A.     Because  he  had  a  contingent  fund  on  which  he  could  draw. 

Q.  Was  that  the  usual  or  proper  manner  to  draw  on  his  con- 
tingent fund? 

A.    Well,  I  suppose  every  one  could  if  they  had  one. 

Q.  I  asked  you  the  Question  if  it  was  his  usual  manner  of 
drawing  on  his  contingent  fund? 

A.  Tt  was  sometimes  done  that  way,  and  sometimes  on  war- 
rants. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  it  was  always  done  on  warrants  except 
on  rare  occasions? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  is  it  not  a  fact  that  that. was  the  proper  way  to  get  it? 

A.     I  suppose  it  is. 

Q.  Well  this  $35  was  an  advance.  Was  it  made  by  you  at  his 
request?  Is  that  a  fact? 

A.    I  don't  know  whether  or  not  you  would  call  it  an  advance. 

Q.  It  was  paid  out,  it  was  advanced  out  of  the  State's  money, 
or  was  il  out  of  your  own  private  money? 

A.     Advanced  out  of  the  State's  money. 

Q.    "Was  it  paid  back? 

A.     I  got  a  warrant  for  it  and  turned  it  in. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Yates,  $  would  be  glad  if  without  further  inter- 
rogation that  you  would  state  the  circumstances  which  occurred  at 
that  time. 

A.  That  is  all  I  can  tell  you  about  it.  He  just  brought  me 
this  voucher  properly  signed  up  and  asked  me  to  advance  him  money 
on  it.  and  afterwards  I  got  the  warrant  for  it. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  he  told  you  to  advance  Him  the 
money  and  take  it  out  of  his  salary  at  the  end  of  the  month"? 


—  40  — 

A.     I  don't  remember  that  Judge. 

Q.     You  don't  remember? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Have  you  told  all  you  know  about  that  circumstance? 

A.     If  there  is  anything  else  I  don't  remember  it  now. 

Q.  If  there  was  you  would  remember  it,  wouldn't  you;  it  was 
rather  an  unusual  circumstance  wasn't  it? 

Governor  Davis  (addressing  the  Chair) — Do  you  think  that  is  a 
proper  question? 

The  Chairman — I  am  conducting  this  examination.  You  have 
a  turn  after  I  get  through. 

Mr.  Yates — If  you  have  any  suggestions  to  make — any  questions 
to  ask  I  will  answer  them. 

Q.  I  say,  have  you  told  all  that  you  know  about  this  trans- 
action? 

A.     So  far  as  remembering  the  transaction  that  was  made. 

Q.  1  asked  you  if  you  had  told  all  you  knew  about  tMs  trans- 
action? 

A.    Yes,  sir,  all  I  remember  about  it,  Judge. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Futrell)  Is  that  the  only  voucher  you  ever  paid 
money  out  on? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  common  thing  that  members  of  the  legislature 
and  other  State  officials  knew  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  it  has  been  the  rule  there  ever  since  I  have  been 
in  there. 

Q.  That  is  when  an  official  comes  in  there  with  a  voucher, 
when  he  can't  get  into  the  Auditor's  office — members  of  the  legis- 
lature and  others — they  present  their  voucher  to  you  and  you 
advance  them  money  on  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  and  then  go  to  the  Auditor's  office  and  put  the 
warrant  in  its  place.  We  count  that  as  cash  until  we  get  the 
warrant, 

Q.     It  is  merely  a  matter  of  borrowing  then,  isn't  it? 

A.  Not  even  a  matter  of  borrowing;  we  carry  it  as  cash  in 
the  drawer  and  count  it  as  five,  ten  or  one  hundred  dollar  bill. 

Q.     IBy  Committeeman)     How  much  was  there  of  that  money? 

A.     $a5. 


—  41  — 

Q.  Did  you  take  it  out  of  his  salary  then  at  the  end  of  the 
month? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  told  you  awhile  ago  that  I  got  a  warrant. 
Q.     When? 

A.  After  he  got  it;  I  don't  know — some  days.  I  don't  know 
whether  I  went  into  the  Auditor's  office  and  got  it  or  someone  else 
in  the  office,  it  was  the  same  thing. 

Q.     What  was  it  payable  out  of? 

A.     Governor's    contingent   fund. 

Q.  (By )  Mr.  Yates,  that  voucher  seems  to  he  dated 

on  the  llth,  and  it  seems  that  you  got  a  warrant  on  the  30th.  Can 
you  explain  the  difference  in  the  dates — why  that  was? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  cannot,  unless  it  was  just  dropped  in  the  drawer 
and  we  carried  it  as  cash. 

Q.     You  probably  carried  this  as  cash? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  would  do  that  until  we  got  the  Auditor's  warrant; 
then  we  got  credit  on  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  F.  L.  McCain)  Mr.  Yates,  as  I  understand,  the 
Governor  came  into  the  Treasurer's  office  and  drew  $35  on  a 
voucher,  and  the  understanding  was  that  he  was  to  pay  that  back, 
and  you  got  a  warrant  on  the  Governor's  contingent  fund  from  the 
Auditor;  is  that  the  understanding? 

A.  We  held  that  voucher  and  got  a  warrant;  afterwards  got  a 
warrant  and  got  credit  on  it. 

Q.  Now,  if  the  committee  will  allow  it,  can  you  not  and  will 
your  books  show,  and  can  you  make  a  list  of  the  warrants  issued 
for  other  items  than  the  Governor's  salary — other  items  drawn  from 
the  contingent  fund,  that  will  show  whether  or  not  he  ever 
replaced  this  $35  in  actual  cash  in  the  contingent  or  other  reserve 
fund? 

A.     I  suppose  the  books  will  show  that. 

Q.     They  are  bound  to  show  that,  are  they  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  unless  they  are  under  wrong  heads. 

Q.  (By  the  Chair)  Mr.  Yates,  you  may  be  able  to  tell  us 
whether  it  was  ever  turned  in  in  actual  cash  or  not? 

Mr.  McCain — Mr.  Yates  says  he  does  not  recollect  it 

By  Governor  Davis — Colonel  Tipton  says  that  I  told  him  to  put 
it  back  and  he  told  me  that  he  did  put  it  back,  and  that  settles  it, 
unless  you  want  to  impeach  Colonel  Tipton. 


—  42  — 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Yates,  when  was  it  that  this  $35 
was  advanced? 

A.  I  don't  remember  the  date;  I  think  it  shows  on  the  voucher; 
the  voucher  is  dated  the  14th. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  whether  or  not  it  was  advanced  on  that 
date? 

A.  I  presume  it  was.  General. 

Q.  Will  your  books  show  when  it  was  advanced? 

A.  No,  sir. 

*-  . 

Q.     When  was  the  voucher  sworn  to? 

A.     I  don't  know  about  that. 

Q.     Was  it  sworn  to  when  it  came  into  your  hands? 

A.     I  don't  remember  about  that  Colonel. 

Q.  Are  you  certain  that  the  money  was  advanced  before  the 
30th  of  June? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  if  it  was  sworn  to  on  the  30th  of  June  by  Governor 
Davis  he  got  possession  of  it  after  you  had  advanced  him  the  money, 
didn't  he? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     How—? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  he  got  that  voucher  back  and  took 
it  in  the  Treasurer's  office  and  swore  to  it  himself? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  particularly  about  it.  I  don't  think 
he  did. 

Q.     Do  you  know  his  signature? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  don't  know  as  I  can  tell  between  his  and  Mr.  Jacob- 
son's. 

Q.      When  was  the  sworn  affidavit  made? 

A.  Jurat  is  subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  on  the  30th 
day  of  June,  1902,  T.  C.  Monroe,  Auditor. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  it  happened  that  you  advanced  this  money 
on  the  14th  day  of  June  and  it  was  afterwards — he  swore  to  the 
voucher — Governor  Davis  swore  to  it  cm  the  30th  day  of  June, 
lixteen  days  afterwards? 

A.     I  don't  know.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  time  he  took  his  trip  to  Fayetteville 
commencement  ? 


—  43  — 

A.     No,  sir.  i    I 

Q.     Was  it  sworn  to  when  you  advanced  him  the  money? 

A.    I  can't  say,  General,  but  I  took  it  for  granted  that  it  was. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  that  conclusion,  seeing  that  the  jurat 
was  made  on  the  30th  of  June? 

A.  I  just  supposed  it  was  fixed  up  when  it  was  presented. 
I  just  simply  took  this  voucher  for  the  amount  of  money  to  draw 
a  warrant  on. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  as  a  fact,  that  amount  of  money  was 
deducted  out  of  the  Governor's  monthly  payment? 

A.  1  suppose  it  was  taken  out  when  the  voucher  was  filed  in 
the  Treasurer's  office.  And  we  have  a  warrant  for  that  amount  of 
money. 

Q.     Do  you  know   whether  it  was  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  can't  say  positively  that  it  was. 

Q.  Have  you  any  reasons  why  you  cannot  state  positively  that 
it  was  not? 

A.  We  have  a  record  of  warrants  filed  there  for  that  amount, 
on  that  fund,  and  the  number  of  the  warrant  corresponds  with  the 
number  on  the  back  of  the  voucher. 

Q.  Well,  have  they  retained  it  out  of  the  Governor's  salary — 
the  voucher  for  his  salary? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  they  knew  it  or  not.  I  don't  know 
about  that;  no,  sir. 

Q.  When  a  person  comes  into  the  office  there  to  draw  on  his 
salary,  a  State  official  as  you  say,  and  asked  you  to  take  it  out  of 
his  salary  voucher — wants  you  to  advance  him  something — has  it 
been  the  custom  to  leave  you  a  voucher  against  a  contingent  fund 
or  a  voucher  against  his  salary? 

A.  It  has  been  usual,  I  believe,  to  leave  a  voucher  against 
the  salary.  I  don't  remember  that,  though.  I  don't  remember  as 
to  which  this  did  come  out  of. 

Q.  Is  it  ever  done?  Has  there  ever  been  a  known  instance? 
I  mean  an  instance  of  that  kind  since  your  connection  with  that 
office  in  which  any  official  has  come  in  there  and  left  a  voucher 
against  a  contingent  fund  with  the  stipulation  or  request  that 
it  be  paid  out  of  his  next  month's  salary? 

A.  I  don't  remember  one,  General;  but  I  can't  say  that  it  has 
not  been  done.  I  don't  even  remember  that  this  was  on  the  con- 
tingent fund  until  I  examined  the  voucher. 


—  44  — 

Q.  Now  when  a  voucher  is  presented  against  a  contingent  fund 
and  a  request  accompanying  it  that  it  be  deducted  out  of  the  next 
month's  salary,  you  would  have  to  make  some  book  entries  to  balance 
the  thing  around  and  get  that  deduction  into  the  contingent  fund, 
wouldn't  you? 

A.  Wouldn't  be  any  record  of  it  at  all;  just  carry  it  until  after 
the  warrant  was  issued. 

Q.  After  the  deduction  was  made  wouldn't  there  have  to  be 
some  entries  made? 

A.  After  there  was  a  warrant  issued  there  would  have  to  be 
some  charge? 

Q.     What  charge? 

A.  To  get  my  balance  back  proper  I  would  have  to  draw  it 
out  of  one  fund  and  put  it  in  another.  Have  to  either  change  the 
warrant  or  the  voucher  to  show  the  proper  fund  out  of  which 
it  was  paid;  or  have  to  pay  it  out  of  the  debit  fund  to  the  credjt 
fund  to  balance  it. 

Q.  Now,  if  you  had  accepted  this  warrant  on  the  contingent 
fund,  or  this  voucher  on  the  contingent  fund  and  paid  him  on  it 
£35  in  money,  if  you  had  taken  it  out  of  the  next  month's  salary  of 
the  Governor's,  what  entry  would  you  have  had  to  make  in  order  to 
square  things? 

A.  Didn't  make  any  at  all.  Carried  the  voucher  as  cash  until 
we  got  the  warrant  for  it,  or  until  the  salary  was  paid  in  and 
amount  deducted  from  it. 

Q.     You  did  get  a  warrant,  didn't  you? 
A.     I  took  the  voucher  and  got  that. 

Q.  You  took  the  voucher  and  got  the  warrant  and  the  $35  out 
Df  the  contingent  fund  ? 

A.  We  just  credited  the  account.  Credited  the  warrant  on  the 
contingent  account. 

Q.     You  made  it  a  charge  against  the  contingent  account? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    After  you  deducted  it  out  of  the  salary  and  put  it  back  didn't 
you  have  to  put  a  credit  entry  to  the  contingent  fund? 
A.     Yes,  sir,  the  warrant  was  entered,  of  course. 
Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     Mr.  Yates,     this     voucher    T     drew 
against  my  contingent  fund  for  $35,  that  was  drawn  according  to  the 
voucher,  and  as  you  suppose,  I  drew  it  on  the  14th? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  the  date,  and  I  supposed  that  it  was  drawn; 
the  voucher  was  dated  the  14th  of  June. 


—  45  — 

Q.  I  say  that  the  voucher  states  that  it  was  drawn  on  the 
14th? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  it  was  your  custom  to  simply  charge  thai  or 
keep  it  in  the  drawer  as  so  much  cash— counted  it  as  $35  in  cashj^ 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     As  though  it  was  simply  a  cash  item? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  the  first  of  the  month  you  go  to  the  Auditor's  office  and 
get  the  warrant  for  this  amount? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  the  30th— last  day. 

Q.  As  we  say,  when  pay  day  came  around,  you  went  down  and 
got  the  warrant? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Then  that  was  charged  to  the  contingent  fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  accounts  for  the  difference  in  the  dates,  as  it  appears 
from  the  Auditor's  books  that  the  warrant  was  drawn  on  the  30th 
of  June,  and  the  voucher  was  made  on  the  14th  of  June; 
that  you  must  have  held  the  voucher  as  cash  from  the  14th  to 
the  30th  of  June? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  simply  took  this  voucher  to  the  Auditor's  office, 
or  someone  else  for  you,  and  got  the  warrant? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  warrant  was  returned  to  the  office  and  charged  against 
the  contingent  fund,  and  the  warrant  laid  by  for  the  burning  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  before  you  could  get  that  warrant  it  was  necessary 
for  someone  to  make  a  jurat  to  the  voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  appears  to  have  been  done  on  the  day  you  got  the 
warrant,  the  30th  of  June? 

A.     Got  the  warrant;   yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  not  necessary  for  you  to  have  the  jurat  until  you 
>-?7ut  k>  get  that  warrant? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  to  get  the  warrant  on  the  30th  day  of  June,  and  so 
the  jurat  was  attached  on  the  30th  of  June,  and  that  is  all  there 
is  to  it? 


—  46  — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  whether  or  not  this  money  has  been  paid  back  you 
say  you  do  not  know? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  took  no  notice  of  that — that  was  an  agreement  between 
Colonel  Tipton  and  myself? 

A.     No,  sir;  if  I  ever  knew  of  it  at  all  I  don't  remember  it. 

Q.  You  don't  know  whose  signature  that  is  to  the  jurat,  do 
you? 

A.  I  can't  tell,  because  yours  and  Charlie  Jacobson's  signa- 
tures are  very  similar.  They  are  very  much  alike. 

Q.     You  don't  know  whose  that  is? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  But  the  jurat  must  have  been  attached  before  you  got  the 
warrant  on  the  30th  day  of  June? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Hence  the  difference  between  the  dates  of  the  jurat  and 
the  voucher? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  We  just  merely  enter  the  voucher  as  cash  until 
we  get  the  warrant  from  the  Auditor. 

Q.  (T3y  Committee)  Mr.  Yates,  have  you  any  idea  for  what 
purpose  that  money  was  used? 

A.     Voucher  states  expenses  to  Fayetteville. 

Q.  TT3y  Mr.  Whitley)  Mr.  Yates,  do  you  remember  whether 
It  is  the  custom  when  one  of  these  vouchers  are  turned  in  to  you 
and  you  receive  it  as  so  much  cash,  or  it  is  held  as  so  much"  cash, 
and  if  that  had  no  jurat  at  the  time  you  received  it  that  you  took 
it  to  the  Auditor  in  the  absence  of  the  person  who  signed  that 
jurat — I  mean  in  the  absence  of  the  person  who  signed  the  voucher, 
the  Auditor  attaches  his  jurat.  Now,  I  don't  know  whether  yon 
understand  that  question  or  not.  When  you  received  that  voucher 
from  Governor  Davis  and  placed  it  in  your  office  as  so  much  money 
and  let  him  have  $35  on  it,  that  voucher  was  signed  by  Governor 
Davis  or  someone  for  him,  at  that  time,  wasn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  has  it  been  the  custom  at  any  time  when  you  would 
take  a  voucher  to  the  Auditor,  that  he  would  attach  his  jurat  in 
the  absence  of  the  person  who  signed  it?  In  other  words,  is  it 
not  possible  that  the  Governor  signed  that  voucher  when  you 
received  ft  from  him  and  you  just  took  it  to  the  Auditor  and  h* 


—  47  — 

made  ml  attached  his  jurat  then  in  the  absence  of  the  Governor 
who  signed  it? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  Governor  Davis  was  present  when  the 
Auditor's  jurat  was  attached  to  that  voucher  or  not? 

A.     I  don't  think  he  was. 

Q.  Then  the  Governor  was  not  there  and  the  jurat  was  attached 
for  him,  in  the  Governor's  absence,  by  the  Auditor — you  think  that  is 
the  way  ft  occurred? 

A.     I  think  that  is  it.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Do  you  say  that  the  Auditor  put 
that  jurat  to  that  claim  there  in  the  absence  of  the  Governor?  Do 
you  say  fhat  the  Auditor  certified  to  that  claim  in  the  absence  of 
the  debtor? 

A.  I  don't  remember  that.  I  said  I  didn't  remember  how  that 
was  done. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  that  you  presented  the  voucher  at  all? 

A.  I  don't  remember,  General,  whether  I  presented  it  or  some- 
one else  in  the  office  presentd  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Can  you  produce  the  books  of  record 
and  disclose  the  information  for  the  Attorney  General? 

A.  I  didn't  keep  any  record.  It  stayed  in  there,  and  we  just 
carried  it  as  currency  until  we  got  the  warrant.  Carried  it  as  so 
much  money  until  we  got  the  warrant. 

Q.     No  record  to  disclose  that? 

A.    Ko,  sir. 

GOVERNOR  DAVIS,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  testifies  as  follows: 

Governor  Davis — This  voucher,  the  body  of  it  and  the  signature, 
is  written  in  my  handwriting — I  mean  this  down  to  here  (indicated 
on  voucher),  June  14,  1902.  To  Jeff  Davis  to  expenses  to  Fayette- 
ville  commencement,  $35;  contingent  fund,  expenses  of  the  Gov- 
ernor's office;  signed,  Jeff  Davis;"  that  is  in  my  handwriting.  I 
took  this  voucher  to  the  Treasurer's  office,  just  as  I  stated  last 
night,  and  he  paid  me  $35.  I  can  very  readily  see  how  Mr.  Yates  car- 
ried this  as  so  much  cash  and  then  went  to  the  Auditor's  office  with 
the  voucher  and  got  a  warrant.  That  jurat  is  made  out  in  Mr. 
Jacobson's  handwriting.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  never  swore  to  a  voucher 
or  anything  at  the  Auditor's  office.  The  jurat  is  made  out  in  Mr. 
Jacobson's  handwriting.  That  is  just  on  the  first  of  the  month 


—  48  — 

*• 

when  the  Treasurer  wants  the  warrant.     Mr.  Colquitt  never  swore 
me  to  a  thing  in  his  life,  did  you  Mr.  Colquitt? 
Colonel  Colquitt— No,  sir. 

Governor  Davis — I  never  drew  my  salary  in  my  life;  my  private 
secretary  attends  to  that.  Now  my  recollection  is,  I  can't  say  pos- 
itively, but  my  recollection,  if  it  serves  me  right,  is  that  the  com- 
mencement at  Fayetteville  began  on  Saturday.  I  know  the  Bacca- 
laureate sermon  was  preached  on  Sunday.  I  got  there  on  Monday, 
which  my  recollection  serves  me  was  the  17th  day  of  June.  That 
money  was  paid  me,  and  I  went  to  Fayetteville,  as  it  is  the 
custom,  why  the  secretary  of  the  board  paid  me  my  expenses,  and  it 
was  simply  a  mistake  between  Colonel  Tipton  and  myself,  as 
explained  here  last  night. 

Q.  (By  Committee)  That  transaction  was  probably  in  this 
way:  you  knew  you  would  be  paid  your  expenses  when  you  got 
there — 

A.  Yes,  sir,  but  I  didn't  have  any  money.  I  haven't  got  car 
fare  tonight,  and  if  you  will  loan  me  five  cents  I  will  be  obliged  to 
you. 

Q.  You  went  to  the  Treasurer  with  the  voucher  and  asked  him 
to  let  you  have  $35? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  probably  carried  that  forward  until  the  end  of  the 
month? 

A.     I  understand  it  as  I  have  stated  it. 

Q.  Then  you  sent  Charlie  Jacobson  and  he  attached  the  jurat 
to  it;  I  flunk  that  is  the  way  it  occurred. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  know  when  I  went  to  Fayetteville  that  Mr. 
Marrs  paid  me  back  my  expenses,  everything  itemized  and  sworn 
to — they  do  things  straight  up  there.  And  if  you  will  go  to  Fay- 
etteville you  will  find  another  account  sworn  to  up  there  of  expenses 
paid  to  me.  This  was  nothing  but  between  Colonel  Tipton  and 
myself. 

Q.  Now  in  June,  1901,  I  suppose  the  same  thing  is  true,  only 
before  you  paid  back  and  the  Auditor's  books  show  it. 

A.     There   never  was   anything   to   it.     Governor   Jones — 

Q.  (By  F.  L.  McCain,  Esq.)  Governor,  then  as  a  matter  of 
fact  you  don't  know  whether  Colonel  Tipton  or  anybody  else  ever 
covered  or  paid  that  $35  back  into  the  Treasury  or  not? 

A.  All  I  know  I  have  told  you  about  it..  He  said  he  would 
and  he  afterwards  told  me  £hat  he  had,  and  that  is  all  I  know. 


Q.  Don't  you  know  if  it  had  been  deducted  out  of  your  salary 
or  not? 

A.  Mr.  Jacobson  comes  down  and  draws  my  salary,  brings  it 
back  and  hands  it  to  me  and  I  put  it  in  my  pocket.  Sometimes  I 
count  it  and  sometimes  I  don't. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  taking  $35  out  of  your  salary  in 
one  month  would  not  attract  your  attention? 

A.  I  don't  say  that.  I  say  this:  that  Mr.  Jacobson  might 
have  told  me;  I  don't  say  that  it  was  not  done;  I  don't  say  that  the 
$35  was  not  deducted  or  was.  If  it  had  been  most  likely  he 
would  have  told  me  and  I  have  forgotten  it;  I  can't  remember 
every  little  detail.  $35  deducted  out  of  my  salary  would  certainly 
attract  my  attention. 

Q.  Does  Charlie  Jr.cobson  keep  your  bank  account,  or  do  you 
keep  it? 

A.  Ke  keeps  it.  He  is  authorized  to  draw  on  my  bank  account 
whenever  I  have  one. 

Q.  Well,  Governor,  when  you  testify  before  this  committee 
that  this  money  had  been  paid  back,  deducted  at  the  end  of  the 
month  from  your  salary — you  had  drawn  it  twice,  both  from  the 
contingent  fund  in  the  State  Treasurer's  office  and  from  the  board  at 
Fayetteville — you  did  not  know  whether  or  not  you  have,  do  you? 

A.     Whether  I  have  what? 

Q.     Got  that  money  and  paid  it  back — 

A.  Mr.  McCain,  I  have  stated  just  as  distinctly  as  the  English 
language  could  be  made,  that  I  understood  that  it  had  been  done.  I 
understood  that  that  money  had  been  paid  back.  I  know  that  I 
asked  Colonel  Tipton  about  it,  and  I  know  that  Colonel  Tipton  told 
me  that  he  would  do  it;  and  1  know  that  after  the  first  of  the  month 
I  asked  Colonel  Tipton  if  he  had  done  it  and  he  told  me  that  he  had. 
Do  you  understand  that? 

Q.  That  leaves  the  matter  then  that  you  say  you  don't  know 
whether  you  got  the  $35  or  whether  you  paid  it  back,  or  whether 
or  not  it  was  deducted  from  your  salary? 

A.  I  know  that  I  got  the  $35  out  of  my  contingent  fund.  I 
know  that  I  got  it  at  Fayetteville.  I  know  that  I  instructed  Colonel 
Tipton  to  take  it  out  of  my  salary.  I  know  he  said  he  would,  and 
I  know  tHat  he  said  he  had,  and  I  think  that  ends  that. 

Q.     When  did  he  tell  you  he  had  done  it? 

A.     Shortly  after  the  first  of  the  month. 


—  50  — 

Q.    When   did  ycu   get   the   money? 

A.  I  presume  on  the  date  of  the  voucher,  which  was  on  the 
14th.  I  cannot  say  positively,  but  thereabout. 

Q.  What  month  was  it  that  Colonel  Tipton  told  you  that  he  had 
deducted  it? 

A.     In  July  following. 

Q.     In  July  following? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  German  National  Bank  collected 
you:  salary  for  that  month?  For  the  month  of  June? 

A.  Really,  I  don't  know  that  they  have  collected  anything  for 
me.  If  they  did  I  have  forgotten  it. 

Q.  Hadn't  you  previously  transferred  this  thing  to  the  bank — 
transferred  the  entire  amount  of  your  monthly  salary  for  June? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  know  this:  I  can  give  you  the  whole 
transaction  about  this — 

Q.  Didn't  you  transfer  on  the  6th  day  of  June  your  saUary  for 
the  month  of  June? 

A.  I  can't  say  because  I  can't  remember  dates  that  well.  But 
I  know  that  I  have  had  a  little  bank  account  with  the  Bank  of 
Prescott — I  don't  know  that  that  is  the  style  of  the  bank,  but  it  is 
the  bank  there  which  Mr.  Gordon  is  cashier  of.  I  would  send  him  my 
voucher — did  for  several  months — send  him  my  voucher  and  he 
would  permit  me  to  draw  against  my  voucher,  and  at  the  end  of 
the  month  he  would  collect  my  salary  and  credit  the  account  with  it. 

Q.     You  had  a  bank  account  there? 

A.  I  said  that  when  I  sent  him  my  voucher  for  $250  he  would 
let  me  draw  against  that. 

Q.     How  was  that,  as  a  deposit  you  made? 

A.  I  simply  sent  him  my  voucher,  but  I  don't  know  whether 
I  did  for  the  month  of  June  or  not. 

Q.  Then,  Governor  Davis,  the  bank  books  will  show  whether 
you  got  your  entire  salary  for  that  month  or  not? 

A.  Mr.  McCain,  I  have  explained  that  I  understood  that  that 
money  had  been  paid  back.  You  certainly  cannot  understand  the 
English  language. 

Q.  I  will  admit,  Governor,  that  I  am  not  always  quite  as  clear 
as  I  should  be.  I  ask  you  again  if  you  make  any  'contention  now 
that  you  haven't  got  that  $35  twice? 

A.  I  make  this  contention  and  in  this  manner:  that  when 
I  wanted  to  go  to  Fayetteville  I  needed  the  money  to  pay  my 


expenses;  I  didn't  have  any,  and  I  drew  out  of  my  contingent  fund 
|35  when  I  went  to  Fayetteville.  When  I  got  to  Fayetteville  the 
secretary  of  the  board  paid  me  my  expenses  on  that  trip,  which 
was  itemized.  That  money  I  brought  back  with  me,  of  course. 

Q.  And,  Governor,  did  you  turn  that  money  back  to  the  State 
Treasurer? 

Q.  (Interrupting)  Did  you  not  at  the  time  you  drew  that 
voucher,  as  a  lawyer  and  Governor  of  the  State,  know  that  you  had 
no  right  to  do  it? 

A.     No,  sir.     I  did  have  that  right. 

Q.     I  think  the  law  does  not  allow  you  to  do  that — 

A.  I  know  I  did  have  the  right.  I  know  exactly  what  I  had  a 
right  to  do. 

Q.  Don't  you  know,  Governor  Davis,  and  didn't  you  know  at 
that  time,  that  the  State  Treasurer  had  no  right  to  loan  anybody 
the  State  funds,  not  even  the  Governor  of  the  State? 

A.  He  wasn't  loaning  any  funds.  I  drew  it,  and  I  say  I  had  a 
right  to  do  it;  and  if  you  had  an  allowance  or  contingent  fund  like 
the  Governor  of  the  State  you  could  do  it  yourself — 

Q.  Don't  .you  know  that  an  appropriation  was  made  to  pay 
the  expenses  of  the  Board  of  Trustees  of  the  Arkansas  State 
University,  and  that  it  was  made  for  that  purpose,  and  that  when 
you  went  to  Fayetteville  that  you  would  draw  your  expenses;  that 
it  was  not  contemplated  that  the  contingent  fund  was  set  aside 
to  you  by  the  General  Assembly  of  the  State  for  the  purpose — 

A.  I  differ  with  you  about  the  law — of  course  you  are  a  very 
fine  lawyer — 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  that  is  not  a  contingent  expense 
or  it  was? 

A.  I  mean  to  say  that  it  was  a  contingent  expense.  And  I  mean 
to  say  that  it  ought  to  have  been  refunded,  and  I  mean  to  say  that 
I  thought  it  was  refunded. 

Q.  (By )  That  was  a  charge  and  you  had  a  perfect 

right  to  draw  for  it  out  of  your  contingent  fund,  and  you  stated 
to  the  Treasurer  when  he  let  you  have  it  that  you  wanted  him  to 
deduct  it  out  of  your  salary? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Because  you  didn't  have  the  money — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  you  used  it  in  going  to  Fayetteville— 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  52  — 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact  you  did  collect  it  from  the  State  Treas- 
urer and  also  from  the  secretary  of  the  board  ? 

A.  I  did,  and  as  a  matter  of  fact  I  told  Mr.  Tipton  to  take  it 
out  of  my  salary,  and  as  a  matter  of  fact  he  told  me  he  had  done  so. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Governor  Davis,  why  was  it  if  what  you 
say  is  true,  that  you  assigned  your  salary  to  Mr.  Gordon  of  Prescott, 
or  to  whatever  bank  he  is  in,  and  that  you  knew  at  the  time  that 
you  had  assigned  it  to  him — I  presume  that  you  meant  to  carry  out 
that  assignment  that  you  had  made  to  him — 

A.  I  did  not  make  an  assignment  of  it;  I  just  sent  it  down 
there  and  he  permitted  me  to  draw  against  it — 

Q.  Why  was  it,  if  you  knew  that  at  the  time  you  had  p^^ed. 
your  salary  to  Mr.  Gordon  of  Prescott — 

A.     For  what  month — 

Q.     June  and  several  months  prior  to  that — 

A.     I  don't  know  what  month — 

Q.     What  did  you  say? 

A.  I  said  I  didn't  know  what  month  it  was.  I  said  I  didn't 
.mow  what  month  it  was  I  assigned  my  salary  to  Mr.  Gordon.  I 
said  I  sent  Mr.  Gordon  my  voucher  several  months  and  he  per- 
mitted me  to  draw  against  my  voucher  and  at  the  end  of  the 
month  he  sent  it  to  the  Auditor's  office  and  got  the  money  for  the 
month;  that  is  what  he  did. 

Q.     Why  did  you  send  it  to  Mr.  Gordon? 

A.     Because  I  wanted  to. 

Q.    Why  did  you  want  to? 

A.  Simply  because  I  preferred  to  do  business  with  Mr.  Gordon 
to  other  people.  If  you  had  been  running  a  bank  probably 
I  would  have  sent  it  to  you. 

Q.  Governor  Davis,  are  you  willing  to  produce  your  bank  boofc 
with  the  Bank  of  Prescott,  and  to  join  in  a  request  to  the  bank  to 
have  Mr.  Gordon  here  as  a  witness,  or  to  have  the  bank  books? 

A.  I  am  willing  to  do  anything  that  the  committee  wants  done: 
that  is  sensible. 

Q.     Then  will  you  join  me  in  a  request — 

A.     I  won't  join  you  in  anything. 

Q.     In  order  that  we  may  get  the  bank  books,  in  order  to  see — 

A.  You  can't  get  anything  I  have;  if  the  committee  wants 
my  books  they  are  open  to  them  but  not  to  you,  unless  it  desires  it. 

Q.  Then  as  I  understand,  you  decline  to  join  with  me  in  a. 
request  to  the  committee  to  subpoena  Mr.  Gordon? 


A.     The  committee  can  get  anything  they  want. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Chairman,  I  wish  to  ask  the  Gov- 
ernor, through  the  chair,  a  question — I  wish  to  ask  the  Governor  if 
it  is  true  that  he  did  assign  his  June  salary  or  transfer  it  to  the 
Prescott  bank  for  which  it  was  to  collect,  and  the  Treasurer  in  July, 
as  he  says  told  him  that  he  had  deducted  that  $35  out  of  his  salary, 
that  he  did  not  know  it  was  not  true — there  was  a  mistake  about  it? 
Do  you  understand  the  question? 

A.    Well,  I  am  sorry  to  say,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Stenographer  reads  question — I  wish  to  ask  the  Governor  if 
it  is  true  that  he  did  assign  his  June  salary — 

A.  I  will  answer  part  of  it  at  a  time.  I  don't  know  whether  I 
assigned  the  June  salary  or  not.  It  was  not  an  assignment;  it 
was  simply  a  deposit  of  that  voucher  there  with  a  privilege  of  draw- 
ing on  it.  The  bank  did  not  consider  that  it  owned  it,  but  that  it 
was  simply  to  be  deposited  there  as  my  private  funds;  but  it 
was  not  an  assignment  of  the  voucher,  and  it  is  not  an  assignment. 
It  was  simply  to  secure  Mr.  Gordon  and  allow  me  to  draw  to  that 
amount.  I  did  not  consider  that  this  was  an  assignment;  it  was 
simply  deposited  as  security  and  by  courtesy,  the  bank  allowed 
me  to  draw  to  that  extent. 

Q.  I  will  repeat  it,  if  it  is  true  that  you  deposited  and  trans- 
ferred your  voucher  for  that  June  salary  to  the  Prescott  bank,  and 
that  it  was  collected  by  that  bank  or  the  German  National  Bank, 
then  if  Tipton  told  you  in  July,  as  you  say,  that  he  had  deducted 
it  out  of  your  salary — the  June  salary — do  you  not  know  now 
when  he  told  you  that  he  had  deducted  that  $35  that  you  was  mis- 
taken about  it  or  that  it  was  not  true? 

A.  That  question  is  entirely  hypothetical.  In  the  first  place, 
I  don't  know  anything  whatever  as  to  whether  I  deposited  my  June 
salary,  or  my  voucher  for  my  June  salary  rather,  or  not  with  the 
Bank  of  Prescott;  not  knowing  that  I  cannot  answer  the  balance  of 
the  question. 

Q.  (By  F.  L.  McCain)  Governor,  how  do  you  explain  the  fact 
that  in  drawing  upon  your  contingent  fund  that  you  not  only  have 
one  mistake  of  that  Kind,  but  that  you  have  some  two  or  three? 

A.  That  is  a  matter  of  argument,  Mr.  McCain,  that  should  come 
more  in  an  argument  before  the  committee,  not  as  a  matter  of 
testimony. 


—  54  — 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  then  if  that  is  the  closing  instance  of  that 
account? 

A.     The  record  speaks  for  itself,  sir. 

Colonel  Murphy — At  this  time  I  would  like  for  the  Chairman 
to  have  the  Auditor  bring  the  voucher  for  the  Governor's  general 
salary. 

COLONEL  J.  C.  COLQUITT,  being  recalled,  deposes  and  tes- 
tifies as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Colonel  Colquitt,  look  at  that 
voucher  and  read  the  order  and  the  endorsements  on  it. 

Colonel  Colquitt  here  produces  a  paper. 

Q.     Colonel,  what  is  that  which  you  have  in  your  hand? 

A.     Voucher  for  the  Governor's  June  salary,  1902. 

Q.     Please  read  it. 

A.  Dated,  "Office  of  the  Governor,  Little  Rock,  6-30-19(T2;  -State 
of  Arkansas,  to  Jeff  Davis,  for  salary  June,  1902,  $250.  I  hereby 
certify  that  the  above  account  is  correct  and  payable  out  of  the 
appropriation  to  pay  salaries  of  the  Governor  of  Arkansas.  (Signed) 
Jeff  Davis,  by  Charles  Jacobson.  Received  warrant  from  the 
Auditor;  Treasurer's  office,  Little  Rock,  on  this  the  -  -  day  of 

,  190 — ,  O.  B.  Gordon,  treasurer,  and  O.  B.  Gordon,  cashier/' 

That  was  No.  1861.  Jeff  Davis,  $250,  to  be  paid  out  of  appropria- 
tion for  the  Governor's  salary;  filed  and  warrant  issued  on  the  day 
it  was  signed  herein.  It  was  filed  on  July  2,  and  the  warrant 
issued  on  that  date. 

Q.     To  whom  was  the  warrant  delivered? 

A.  To  the  collector  of  the  German  National  Bank.  However, 
[  don't  know;  I  only  say  that. 

Q.    What  is  the  endorsement  on  it? 

A.     I  just  see  the  stamp  of  the  German  National  Bank. 

Q.     Read  it. 

A.  It  has  this  entry  on  the  back:  "Pay  to  the  German  National 
Bank,  or  order.  Signed,  Nevada  County  Bank,  Prescott,  Ark.,  O. 
B.  Gordon,  cashier,"  and  that  is  the  only  evidence.  I  don't  know 
who  collected  it.  It  is  receipted  by  Mr.  Gordon  and  transferred, 
or  rather  this  is  transferred  to  the  German  National  Bank  for  col- 
lection, I  suppose,  just  from  the  stamp  on  it;  that  is  all  the  evidence 
I  have  of  it.  The  receipt  was  by  Mr.  Gordon,  however,  r,f  Prescott 


—  50  — 

Q.    When  you  read  the  face  of  it  did  you  read  the  stamp? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Please  read  the  stamp  on  the  face  of  the  voucher. 

A.     '^Nevada  County  Bank,  No.  282,  Prescott,  Ark." 

Q.     Does  that  check  show  to  whom  the  warrant  was  delivered? 

A.  No,  sir;  just  receipted  on  that  voucher.  The  warrant  was 
not  drawn;  but  of  course  on  the  presentation  of  the  voucher — 

Q.  You  say  there  is  just  a  receipt  for  the  warrant  on  that 
voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Further  taking  of  testimony  adjourned  to  Monday  evening  at 
7:30  o'clock  p.  m. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Means  Committee 


ON 


flonday,  February  23, 
1903 


INDEX. 

MR.  H.  C.  TIPTON. 
MR.  R.  H.  McNAIR. 


—  58- 

COLONEL  H.  C.  TIPTON— Mr.  Chairman,  in  answer  to  a  ques- 
tion that  Colonel  Murphy  asked  me  as  to  how  I  paid  that  $35  to 
the  Governor,  I  answered  from  recollection — from  mem'ory,  and 
I  said  on  the  Auditor's  warrant,  but  I  find  on  investigation  that 
I  am  mistaken  in  that,  and  that  I  paid  it  on  the  Governor's 
voucher  on  his  contingent  fund. 

R.  H.  McNAIR,  on  oath,  being  by  the  chairman  of  the  com- 
mittee first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)     State  your  name  in  full,  please? 
A.     R.   H.    McNair. 

Q.    What  business  are  you  engaged  in  Mr.  McNair? 
A.     Coal  business. 

Q.  Were  you  engaged  in  the  coal  business  in  the  winters  of 
1901  and  1902? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     In   whose   employ   were  you? 

A.     Mr.   Bunch. 

Q.     Mr.  Bunch;    what  is  the  name  of  the  firm? 

A.     T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  Company. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  during  those  winters,  1901  and  1902,  the 
T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  Company  furnished  or  was  furnishing  coal  to 
the  State  Institutions? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  made  the  contract  with  the  State  offi- 
cial; in  other  words,  did  you  make  it? 

A.    Why,   I   probably  put  a  bid  in. 

Q.  Previous  to  drawing  up  that  bid,  I  will  ask  you  if  you 
had  any  conversation  with  the  purchasing  agen£  of  the  State 
Charitable  Institutions  with  reference  to  the  coal  contract? 

A.     Not  that  I  remember  of. 

Q.  EIJ  you  have  any  conversation  with  any  of  the  State 
officials? 

(No  answer.) 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  you  had  any  conversation  with  any  State 
official  or  any  purchasing  agent  of  the  State  in  reference  to  the 
contract  before  the  contract  was  made  or  the  bid  was  accepted? 

A.  No,  unless  it  was  to  get  information  about  how  the  bid 
•hould  be  put  in. 


—  59  — 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  during  the  winters  of  1901  and  1902,  or 
of  1901  or  1902,  or  both,  if  the  T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  Company  fur- 
nished coal  for  the  Governor's  and  Purchasing  Agent's  private 
use? 

A.     I   delivered  some  coal  to   the  Governor. 

Q.     I  will  ask  you  if  it  was  paid  for  by  the  Governor? 

A.     It  is   not  yet. 

Q.     Has   the  bill  been  presented? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  bill  has  been  presented.  Did  you  deliver  any  to  the 
Purchasing  Agent,  Mr.  Page? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Has  that   been  paid  for? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     What  years   was  that  delivered   in? 

A.     In  the   winter  of  1901  •  and  1902. 

Q.  And  that  that  was  delivered  in  the  winter  of  1901  has 
not  yet  been  paid  for? 

A.     Well,  it  was   the  wintor  of  1901  and  1902. 

Q.     Well,  it  has  not  been  paid  for? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     How  much  was  it,  if  you  can  remember;  about  how  much? 

A.  Well,  I  believe  between  fifteen  and  twenty  tons  was 
delivered  to  the  Governor;  I  don't  remember  just  the  number  of 
pounds. 

Q.    Where  was  it  delivered? 

A.     To  his  residence. 

Q.     Was  the  bill  presented  for  the  same? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     To  whom  was  the  bill  made  out  to? 

A.     Governor  Davis. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  deliver  that  coal;  why  did  you 
deliver  it  to  his  residence? 

A.     Wliy,  it  was  ordered. 

Q.     By  whom? 

A.  Well,  I  can't  say  that.  It  was  ordered  over  the  telephone 
to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  that  coal  was  delivered  to  the  Gov- 
ernor by  the  advice  and  agreement  with  him — between  him  and 
yourself,  that  it  was  to  be  furnished  to  him  gratuitous? 

A.     No,  sir. 


—  60  — 

Q.     You  never  had  a  conversation  of  that  character? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Either   for   the       ar   1901    or   1902? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  such  conversation  that  in  con- 
sideration of  your  company  getting  the  contract,  or  of  your  bid 
being  accepted,  that  he  should  be  furnished  this  coal  free? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Have  you  never  made  a  statement  to  that  effect? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Is  Governor  Davis  a  member  of  the 
Board  of  Charities? 

A.     Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Well  was  he  a  party  to  the  contract  or  a  member  of  the 
board  to  accept  bids  from  your  company  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Charitable  Institutions? 

A.     Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Well  then  if  he  is  not  a  member  of  that  board  he  cannot 
be  a  party  to  the  contract  could  he? 

A.     I   don't   know   anything  about   it. 

Q.     You  know  that  he  is  not  a  member  of  the  board? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  have  other  customers  besides  Governor 
Davis  who  have  failed  to  pay  you  within  a  year's  time,  have 
you  not? 

A.     Oh,    yes. 

Q.  There  are  other  people  who  do  not  settle  their  bills  just 
as  prompt  or  when  you  demand  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  You  say  you  presented  the  bill,  but 
you  did  not  say  when;  when  did  you  present  the  bill  for  the  coal 
to  the  Governor? 

A.     During  the  winter  of  1901   and   1902. 

Q.     Send  it  when  the  coal  was  delivered? 

A.  I  don't  know;  we  usually  made  out  bills  every  month, 
and  the  collector  took  them. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  many  times  that  bill  was  presented? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  can't  say. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  That  coal  that  you  testify  you 
delivered  at  the  Governor's  place,  was  that  charged  on  the  books? 

A.     Why —  (No  further  answer.     Witness  interrupted.) 


—  61  — 

Q.     I  asked  you  if  that  was  charged  on  your  books  to  Gov- 
ernor  Davis? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     When  was  the  entry  made  on  your  books? 
A.     Why,   1   believe   the   first   coal   was    delivered   during   the 
first  part  of  Octotor. 
Q.     1901? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  the  charges  for  that  coal  that  was  deliv- 
ered to  Governor  Davis'  residence  in  1901  were  made  at  the  time  of 
the  delivery  of  the  coal? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  We  have  tickets  dated  for  each  load  of  coal 
as  it  is  sent  out  on  that  date. 

Q.  Then  when  the  ticket  came  in  it  was  charged  up  to  him  on 
the  books  of  the  company? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  that  it  is  there  on  your  books  or  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Have    you    seen   the   entry? 

A.     I  have  looked  over  it  in  a  general  way;    yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  to  state  if  it  is  charged  up  to  Governor 
Davis  on  your  books? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     But   it  has   not  been   paid   for? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  You  say  it  was  charged  at  the 
time  you  delivered  the  coal? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.    Who   made   the    charge? 

A.    Well,  I  can't  say;  it  was  charged  up  in  the  regular  routine? 

Q.     Who   is    your   bookkeeper? 

A.  Well,  I  have  a  gentleman  by  the  name  of  Wolf;  he  has 
been  with  me  only  a  few  weeks. 

Q.     Who  is   the  Purchasing  Agent  for  the  Charitable   Board? 

A.     I  suppose  Mr.  John  Page  is. 

Q.     Why  don't  you   know,   Mr.   McNair? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Why  do  you  say  that  you  suppose  he  is  then.  Don't  you 
know  that  he  is  the  Purchasing  Agent  and  was  then? 

A.     Mr.   Page? 


—  62  — 

Q.     Mr.  John  H.  Page? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did   you  have   any   talk  with   Mr.   Page? 

A.     About  this — 

Q.     — Furnishing  of  this  coal? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  to  you  about  it?  Now,  just  go  ahead 
and  tell  the  whole  thing  without  forcing  me  to  ask  you  any  fur- 
ther questions,  and  get  through  with  it.  You  know  what  it  is,  so 
don't  force  me  to  ask  you  any  further  questions  about  it. 

A.  He  simply  asked  me  if  I  could  furnish  the  Governor  coal; 
I  can't  say  when  he  asked  me,  but  it  was  sometime  in  the  fall 
or  near  the  first  part  of  October.  We  were  then  putting  coal 
in  at  the  State  Institutions;  had  been  for  several  weeks,  and 
as  I  remember  the  weather  was  getting  so  people  wanted  coal;  and 
he  asked  me  if  I  would  furnish  the  Governor  coal  at  the  same 
price  that  the  State  was  getting  it,  and  I  told  him  that  I  couldn't 
do  it  because  the  Governor  used  hard  coal  and  the  State  was  using 
soft  coal,  and  the  hard  coal  was  more  expensive. 
*  Q.  Well,  proceed. 

A.  I  finally  agreed  to  make  a  proportionate  reduction  for  the 
nard  coal  that  was  made  for  the  soft  coal  for  the  State. 

Q.     Well,   proceed   with   your   statement. 

A.     That  is  all  the  conversation  I  had  with  him  at  that  time. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  in  consequence  of  that  conversation; 
just  go  through  the  whole  thing? 

A.  I  charged  the  coal  up  at  a  reduced  price.  The  entries  are 
that  way  on  the  books. 

Q.     Did  Mr.  Page  say  anything  to  you  about  his  own  coal? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.     Did   you   furnish   him   coal? 

A.     I   delivered  him  some   coal. 

Q.     At  the  same  price  you  sold  to  the  Charitable  Institutions? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.  How  much  less  did  you  sell  it  to  the  Charitable  Institu- 
tions than  you  sold  it  to  your  private  customers,  per  ton? 

A.     Well,   I  don't  remember  just  now. 

Q.  Give  us  the  best  idea  you  can;  whether  it  was  a  dollar 
less  or  two  dollars  less  or  how  much? 

A.     In  the  neighborhood  of  a  dollar. 


—  63- 

Q.     You  say  the  bills  were  sent? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  many  times  they  were  sent? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  do  not. 

Q.     Did   you  quit   sending  them? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  On  what  ground,  or  on  whose  request  did  you  cease  to 
present  them? 

A.  I  stopped  presenting  Governor  Davis'  bill  because  Mr.  Page 
-asked  that  I  do  not  present  it  any  more. 

Q.     Did  you  present  it  any  more? 

A.  I  did  not  present  it,  and  I  do  not  think  it  was  presented 
any  more. 

Q.  Well,  did  Mr.  Page  or  not  tell  you  at  the  same  time  that 
you  were  expected  to  furnish  him  and  the  Governor  coal  free? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  can't  say  that  he  ever  did. 

Q.  Well,  when  did  you  quit  presenting  these  bills,  or  did  you 
«ver  do  it? 

A.     I  haven't  presented  it  this  year. 

Q.     Well,  did  you  quit  before  this  year  begun,  presenting  it? 

A.  I  think  so.  I  think  we  stopped  presenting  it  about  the  first 
of  June  last. 

Q.  Is  it  or  is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  nave-  never  collected  a 
dollar  for  coal  furnished  either  the  Purchasing  Agent  or  to  the 
Governor? 

A.     No,  I  can't  say  that,  because  I  have  collected  some. 

Q.     When   did   you    collect   it? 

A.  There  was  some  delivered  about  the  commencement  of  this 
year  that  has  been  paid  for. 

Q.  That  is  since  you  were  withdrawn  the  privilege  of  furnish- 
ing coal  under  your  contract? 

A.     I  didn't  have  a  contract  for  this  year. 

Q.  This  is  for  what  you  have  furnished  since  your  contract 
with  the  Charitable  Institutions  went  out  of  effect? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  While  you  have  furnished  coal  to  the  Charitable  Institu- 
tions, did  you  ever  get  pay  for  a  tori  of  coal  or  for  a  dollar's 
worth  of  coal  furnished  to  either  Mr.  Page  or  to  Governor  Davis? 

A.  I  can't  tell,  but  I  would  not  like  to  say  positively  unless 
I  could  look  at  the  books. 


—  64  — 

Q.     Now  Mr.  McNair,  don't  you  know  whether  you  have  or  i>ot? 

A.  1  know  I  never  got  any  from  Governor  Davis,  unless  maybe 
•we  sent  some  C.  O.  D.,  or  something  like  that,  that  was  paid  for. 
I  know  there  is  a  bill  there  against  him  now. 

Q.  Well,  when  Mr.  Page  told  you  not  to  present  the  bill  any 
more  didn't  you  know  and  understand  that  you  were  not  sup- 
posed to  get  paid  for  that  coal;  that  it  was  to  go  free;  did  you 
or  not  speak  of  it? 

A.     I  complied  with   his  request. 

Q.     Have  you  presented  that  bill  since  that  request  was  made? 

A.     I  haven't;   no,  sir. 

Q.     Has  the  company  presented  it? 

A.     I  don't  think  so. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  and  Mr.  Page  or  not  get  their  coal 
free  from  you  during  that  contract;  I  mean  while  you  were  fur- 
nishing coal  under  that  contract  to  the  Charitable  Institutions? 

A.    Well,  they  got  coal  that  I  expected  pay  for  at  the  time. 

Q.  Did  they  or  did  they  not  get  free  coal,  and  did  not  Mr. 
Page  request  you  not  to  present  his  bill  any  more,  and  you  did 
not? 

A.  Colonel,  Mr.  Page  never  requested  me  not  to  present  his 
bill. 

Q.  Well,  after  he  requested  you  not  to  present  the  Governor's 
bill,  did  you  ever  demand  pay  for  it  at  any  time? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.  Now  you  had  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Page  over  the  tele- 
phone on  the  12th,  did  you  not? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  told  you  that  the  Attorney  General  was  going  to 
make  a  charge  of  that  matter,  and  state  that  you  had  delivered  him 
and  the  Governor  free  coal,  didn't  he? 

A.     He  said  that  you  were  going  to  say  something  about  it. 

Q.  And  didn't  he  ask  you  to  deny  it  or  to  say  that  you  did 
not,  or  did  he? 

A.  He  asked  me  to  make  a  denial  of  some  such  a  charge; 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  didn't  you  previously  tell  Mr.  Joe  Moore  and  Mr. 
Taylor  about  that?  That  you  furnished  that  coal  free? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  said  it  in  just  those  words.  I  don't  remem- 
ber how  I  said  it  We  did  probably  talk  about  it. 


—  65  — 

Q.  Did  you  not  tell  them,  or  one  of  them,  or  both,  that  Mr. 
Page  told  you  that  you  would  be  expected  to  furnish  him  and 
the  Governor  coal  and  render  no  bill  for  it? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  can't  say  that  I  said  that,  because  I  never  said 
it.  I  may  have  said  something  about  their  having  coal  that  had 
cot  been  paid  for,  but  I  didn't  say  that  I— 

Q.  Did  you  or  not  use  the  expression  that  they  had  had  free 
coal? 

A.     I  may  have  said  it  in  those  words;   I  can't  say  positively. 

Q.  Now  did  or  didn't  Mr.  Page,  on  the  12th,  the  date  of  the 
telephone  communication  between  you  and  him,  tell  you  that  he 
would  rather  pay  for  the  Governor's  coal  and  his  own  too 
than  to  have  any  trouble  about  it? 

A.     He  said  something  like  that. 

Q.    Just  answer  the  question,  if  he  said  that. 

A.     I  can't  say  that  he  said  it  in  those  words. 

Q.     But  he  did  say  that  he  would  rather  pay  for  the  coal — 

A.     To   pay   for  the  coal   than   what? 

Q.     Than  to  have  any  trouble  about  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  say  for  his  and  the  Governor's  too? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  take  the  money,  or  did  he  pay  for  it? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.     What  did  you  tell  him  when  he  said  that? 

A.     I   don't  remember.  Colonel. 

Q.  Mr.  McNair,  you  did  have  a  conversation  about  the  6th 
of  February  with  both  Mr.  Taylor  and  Mr.  Moore  didn't  you,  about 
this  matter? 

A.    Well,  I  don't  know  when  it  was.     It  was  mentioned. 

Q.     Along  about   that  time? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well  ,after  you  had  that  conversation  with  them,  and 
after  you  told  them  that  you  telephoned  to  them  and  asked  them 
to  not  mention  it,  didn't  you? 

A.     No,    sir;    I   did    not. 

Q.     You  didn't  ask  them  not  to  say  anything  about  it? 

A.     No,  sir;    they   called   me  up   and   told  me   that  they  had 
reported  it. 
Testimony— 3. 


Q.     Didn't  you  ask  them  to  not  say  anything  about  it — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman,  interrupting)  That  they  had  reported 
it  to  Colonel  Murphy? 

A.  Whatever  it  was  they  had  reported  it  to  Mr.  Mun:liy, 
yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  ask  them  not  to  mention  it? 

A.  I  told  them  that  I  would  rather  not  be  brought  into 
public  prominence. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  McNair,  now  you  say  that  you 
never  furnished  me  any  free  coal  in  your  life,  don't  you? 

A.  I  never  furnished  you  with  any  coal  that  I  did  not  expect 
pay  for  at  the  time  I  delivered  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  furnish  me  any  coal  that  should  be  used 
as  a  basis  for  securing  a  contract  to  furnish  co<al  to  the  State 
Charitable  Institutions? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Does  not  this  whole  matter  resolve  itself  simply  down 
to  this,  that  you  sold  me  coal  for  the  year  1901,  and  I  have  not 
paid  for  it? 

A.     It  has  not  been  paid  for. 

Q.     It  is  still  charged   on  the  books  is  it  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  Mr.  Bunch  loolis  to  me  for  the  pay- 
ment of  it? 

A.     I  suppose  he  does,  or  to  me. 

Q.     Don't  you  know  that  he  does? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  know  that  Mr.  Bunch  looks  to  me  for  that  money? 

A.     Well— 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  any  contract  between  you  and  me 
that  I  was  not  to  pay  for  that  coal? 

A.     Never  had  any  conversation  about  that,  Governor. 

Q.  You  simply  sold  me  coal  for  which  you  charged  me  on 
the  books,  and  have  not  got  pay  for  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  all  this  talk  about  you  furnishing  me  coal  free  of 
charge  is  not  true? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.  Under  your  contract  for  furnishing  coal  to  the  Charitable 
Institutions? 

A.     No,   sir. 


—  67  — 

Q.  There  was  no  agreement  between  you  and  Page  or  you 
and  me  or  either  or  both  of  us  that  in  consideration  of  your  get- 
ting the  contract  of  furnishing  coal  to  the  State  Charitable  Insti- 
tutions that  Page  and  myself  would  be  furnished  coal  free,  on 
consideration  of  your  getting  the  contract  to  furnish  the  coal? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.     Nothing  of  that  kind? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  McNair,  I  want  to  ask  you  if  you  did  not  present 
these  bills  to  me  several  times? 

A.  I  may  have,  Governor.  I  know  that  I  sent  it  to  you  several 
times. 

Q.  Don't  you  remember  that  you  came  up  there  several  limes, 
or  your  man,  with  this  statement — this  account;  and  didn't  you 
come  up  there  yourself? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  didn't  you  come  back  and  tell  Mr.  Page  that  I  seemed 
to  be  very  busy  and  you  hated  to  bother  me:  and  Mr.  Page  said 
don't  present  the  bill  to  the  Governor — 

A.     He   said   don't  present  the   bill. 

Q.  And  didn't  he  go  further  and  say  that  he  would  pay  the 
bill  if  I  didn't? 

A.     He  said  that. 

Q.     Didn't  he  say  it  at  that  time? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     You   don't  know? 

A.     I  wouldn't  like  to  say  that,  Governor. 

Q.     What  is  your  best  recollection? 

A.     I  wouldn't  say. 

Q.     Whether  he  did  or  did  not? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.  Then  any  statement  that  you  furnished  rio  and  Page  coal 
free  of  charge  in  consideration  of  getting  the  contract  to  furnish 
coal  to  the  Charitable  Institutions  is  an  absolute  falsehood,  is  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Absolutely  untrue? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    it  is  not  true. 

Q.     Nothing   of  it? 

A.     No,   sir. 


—  68  — 

Q.  The  whole  thing  is  that  you  have  furnished  me  with  coal 
that  I  have  not  paid  for? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  there  was  no  contract  that  you  was  to  furnish  coal 
free? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     Or  that  Page  or  me  either  should  get  coal  free? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  I  simply  asked  you  for  coal  and  it  is  charged  on  the 
books  of  the  company,  and  has  not  been  paid? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  know  whether  the  T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  Company 
expected  me  to  pay  for  it  or  not;  you  are  the  president  of  the 
company? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  am  the  manager;    Mr.  Bunch  is  the  president. 

Q.     You  are  the  manager  of  the  concern? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  bill  belongs  to  Mr.  Bunch,  don't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  had  had  any  idea  under  this  contract  business  that 
you  were  going  to  give  coal  away,  and  you  would  have  to  settle  for 
it  with  Mr.  Bunch, — Mr.  McNair,  you  have  no  right  to  give  Mr. 
Bunch's  property  away  have  you? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.  It  is  Mr.  Bunch's  coal  and  he  looks  to  you  for  the  money 
for  it? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  he  would  expect  me  to  pay  for  it 
or  not. 

Q.     That  is  a  charge  on  your  books? 

A.     Yes,    sir;    an   open   account. 

Q.  And  no  one  told  you  at  the  time  it  was  bought  that  it 
wouldn't  be  paid  for;  you  expected  to  get  your  pay? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  you  have  other  customers  that  have  not  paid? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   have  some  due  there  now. 

Q,     Have   I   ever   refused   to   pay   you? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  I  am  solvent,  and  the  money  could  be 
collected  by  suit? 

A.     I  suppose  so;   yes,  sir. 


Q.  Now  Mr.  McNaA*,  didn't  Mr.  Page  say  this'  to  yon;  you 
came  dov:n  and  told  him  the  Governor  was  busy,  and  he  said, 
don't  worry  him,  if  he  don't  pay  you  I  will;  don't  you  think  that 
is  what  he  said;  now  be  fair  about  it;  I  know  you  want  to  be? 

A.  I  don't  remember.  I  think  he  did  at  times  say  that  you 
were  busy. 

Q.     And  if  I  didn't  pay  the  bill  that  he  would? 

A.     I   can't   exactly   say   about  that. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  McNair,  has  Governor  Davis 
paid  bills  for  coal  furnished  him  since  you  quit  furnishing  coal 
for  the  Charitable  Institutions? 

A.     I  think  he  paid  for  one  ton  of  coal  this  year. 

Q.  Furnished  since  you  quit  furnishing  tho  Cha  itable  Insti- 
tutions? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   or.e  ton. 

Q.  What  other  State  official,  but  him  and  Page,  the  Pur- 
chasing Agent — whoever  said  anything  to  you  about  the  price  at 
which  you  was  to  furnish  coal,  anybody  but  Page? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.     The  Governor  himself,  didn't? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  where  did  you  charge  it;  you  charged  it  at  the  same 
price  you  charged  the  Charitable  Institutions? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     What  did  I  understand  you  to  say;  didn't  you  say  that? 

A.  I  charged  it  at  a  reduced  price  because  it  was  hard  coal, 
because  he  used  hard  coal  and  the  Institutions  used  soft  coal,  but 
_ict  at  the  same  price. 

Q.  At  the  same  price  that  they  would  have  paid  for  the  same 
class  of  coal? 

A.     I   don't  remember  it? 

Q.     Don't  you  know  whether  it  was  so  or  not? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

Q.     You  were  furnishing  those  Institutions  soft  coal? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  And  you  made  a  charge  for  the  hard  coal  that  would 
have  brought  it  to  the  price  of  the  soft  coal,  didn't  you? 

A.     I  made  a  reduction;  I  don't  know  what  the  reduction  was. 

Q.     And   Mr.   Page  asked   for  that  reduction? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  70- 

Q.     (By )     Then  you  say  that  Mr.  Page  asked  you 

in   December   for   the  bill   the   last  time? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Why  didn't  you  give  it  to  him? 

A.     I   didn't   have   it  with   me. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Then,  when  he  asked  you  for  your 
bill,  you  didn't  have  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  was  before  anything  was  kno^wn  about  General 
Murphy's  speech,  or  anything  else  came  up  about  it? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  Why  didn't  you,  at  the  time  in  December,  when  Page 
said  he  would  pay  it  if  I  didn't,  or  when  he  offered  to  pay  it, 
why  didn't  you  take  the  money? 

A.     I   didn't   have   the   bill? 

Q.     Why   didn't   you   get   it? 

A.     I   didn't  take  the   time. 

Q.     He  offered,  you  say,  in  December,  to  pay  that  bill? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  This  offer  to  pay,  when  these  discussions  had  come  up 
about  it,  how  many  times — 

A.     Two   or   three  times. 

Q.  You  didn't  have  the  bill  and  didn't  take  the  money,  and 
you  have  never  sent  it  to  him  since? 

A.     I  didn't  make  it  out. 

Q.  This  question  about  this  coal  that  was  furnished  me  and 
Page,  being  free  coal,  there  is  nothing  to  it  is  there;  it  is  all 
buncomb;  don't  you  know  that  is  all  moonshine? 

(Question  ruled  out  as   incompetent.) 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Did  you  not,  at  the  time  you  made 
the  bid  for  furnishing  coal  to  the  State  Charitable  Institutions 
say,  in  answer  to  a  question  propounded  to  you  there  by  the 
Governor  or  Mr.  Page,  as  to  whether  your  bid  meant  free  coal 
i'or  the  Governor  or  Mr.  Page? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You   say   you   did   not? 

A.     I   did  not. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  You  say  that  it  did  not  mean 
free  coal  to  us  when  you  bid? 

A.     No  conversation  about  that. 


71  — 

Q.     You  mean   there   was  no   conversation  of  that  charic-tor' 

A.     No,  sir. 

Colonel  Murphy  here  hands  the  witness  a  letter;  the  Chair 
requests  to  see  the  letter,  and  after  the  Chair  and  the  rest  of 
teh  committee  have  read  the  letter  the  Chair  ruled  the  letter  out 
of  the  evidence. 

Colonel  Murphy  hands  letter  to  the  witness,  who  reads  it,  and 
in  turn  hands  it  over  to  Governor  Davis. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Now  sir,  I  want  to  ask  you  if  Mr. 
Page  told  you  to  drop  that  bill  and  not  collect  from  the  Governor 
at  all? 

A.     He  asked  me  not  to  present  it. 

Q.  Just  answer  my  question?  Did  he  tell  you  to  drop  tho 
bill  and  not  collect  from  the  Governor  at  all;  did  he  or  not? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

'Q.     And    you   did   drop   it   didn't   you? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  You  knew  that  the  Governor  had  the  power  to  embarrass 
you  in  your  collections  from  the  Charitable  Institutions  if  you 
did  not,  don't  you? 

(The  Chairman  rules  out  the  foregoing  question;  also  a  sim- 
ilar question  following  it.) 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Now  Mr.  McNair.  the  whole  i'act  is 
that  Mr.  Page  has  offered  to  pay  you  gratuitously  all  this  money, 
both  his  and  mine  in  December  there,  and  you  stated  that  you  did 
not  have  the  account  with  you,  and  therefore  it  has  not  been  paid? 

A.     I  don't  remember  his  paying  it.  Governor — 

Q.  He  offered  to  pay  it  before  this  controversy  arose  at  all 
didn't  he4  in  December? 

A.     In   December;    yes,    sir. 

Q.  Now  at  the  time  you  made  the  contract  wtih  these  Insti- 
tutions for  furnishing  coal,  there  was  no  contract  to  furnish  me 
any  coal  free? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     And  there  has  never  been  such  a  contract  since? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Never? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     And  I  owe  for  that  coal  to-day? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  72  — 

Q.     And  that  is  all  there  is  to  it? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  McNair,  did  Mr.  Page  ever  offer 
to  pay  you  for  that  coal  before  your  contract  was  out  or  you 
ceased  to  furnish  the  Charitable  Institutions  with  coal? 

A.  That  is  a  pretty  hard  question,  Colonel;  I  wouldn't  like 
to  say. 

Q.  You  have  got  a  recollection  about  it;  I  want  you  to  speak. 
It  is  your  conscience,  not  mine.  I  asked  you  a  simple  question. 
You  know  if  he  ever  offered  to  pay  you  before  you  ceased  to 
put  in  coal  under  that  contract  or  not  to  the  Charitable  Insti- 
tutions? 

A.     I  wouldn't  swear.     Being  under  oath  I  can't  tell  you. 

Q.  Well,  did  he  ever  offer  to  pay  you  for  it  while  the  con- 
tract was  running,  or  if  he  did  offer  to  pay  it,  why  -didn't  he 
do  it? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  Now  if  you  regarded  it  as  a  debt  due  when  he  did  offer 
afterwards  to  pay  it,  why  didn't  you  take  the  money? 

A.     I  didn't  know  what  the  amount  was. 

Q.  How  far  were  you  from  the  coal  company's  office,  or  from 
the  T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  establishment  when  he  made  that  offer? 

A.     Why  it  was  in  the  building  here. 

Q.     Right  there  where  the  bill  was? 

A.     No,    sir;    in   this   building. 

Q.  What  condition  did  he  couple  with  it;  what  else  did  he 
say  about  paying  it?  What  if  anything  was  said  about  it,  or  did 
he  use  the  expression  that  he  would  rather  pay  it  himself;  was 
there  anything  of  that  sort  coupled  with  it? 

A.  Well,  when  he  made  the  offer  in  this  building,  or  in  his 
office,  I  didn't  have  the  bill.  He  didn't  make  any  condition  that 
time. 

Q.     When  was  that? 

A.     As  I  remember  it  was  over  the  telephone. 

Q.     When? 

A.     You  mean  the  first  offer? 

Q.     That  is  what  I  am  trying  to  get  at? 

A.     He  offered  to  pay  it  in  his  own  office  in  December. 

Q.     On  what  condition? 

A.     He  made  no  condition  then. 


Q.     On  what  terms? 

A.     No    terms. 

Q.     Had  he  given  any  reason  before  for  not  paying  it? 

A.     I   don't   remember. 

Q.  Now  is  it  not  a  fact  that  he  told  you  that  you  were 
•expected  to  furnish  him  coal  free? 

A.     Really,   I   can't  say  that. 

Q.  You  understood  it  from  him,,  didn't  you,  that  you  were 
expected  to  though? 

(Governor  Davis  objects  to  question;  objections  overruled  hy 
the  chair.) 

Q.     Is   not  that  your  answer,  Mr.   McNair? 

A.  I  did  not.  I  didn't  understand  that  I  was  expected  to 
furnish  it  free. 

Q.     You  did  do  it  though,  didn't  you? 

A.     I  have  never  been   paid  for  that  coal. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  And  it  is  charged  on  the  books  to 
me  to-day? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  .  And   charged   on   the  books  to  Mr.   Page? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Farrar  L.  McCain)  Mr.  McNair,  you  say  that  during 
the  pendency  of  this  contract  you  furnished  this  coal;  when  did 
your  contract  expire  under  which  you  furnished  coal  to  the  State 
Charitable  Institutions;  what  date? 

A.  Why,  the  contract  was  let,  as  I  remember  now,  in  the 
summer  of  1901,  for  one  year. 

Q.     And  it  expired  the  next  summer;  the  summer  of  1902? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Now,  after  that  contract  expired  there  is  no  dispute  but 
what  you  sent  various  bills  and  Governor  Davis  has  in  only  two 
instances  paid  them? 

A.     I  don't  know — 

Q.     You  testified  to  that  before. 

A.     i  remember  one  bill  that  I  collected  from  him. 

Q.  Now  the  bills  that  you  collected  from  him,  did  you  include 
in  them  the  amount  of  coal  that  he  had  gotten  during  the  pendency 
<of  this  contract? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  did  not  include  that? 
*A.     I  did  not  include  it. 


—  74  — 

Q.  That  was  charged  to  him  on  the  books  of  your  company, 
and  after  you  ceased  furnishing  coal  for  the  Institutions  you  srnt 
a  bill  to  him  for  the  coal  for  the  rest  of  the  time,  but  you  did 
not  include  this  sent  him  under  or  during  the  life  of  your  contract? 

(Question  objected  to.) 

Q.     I  asked  you  whether  you  did  that.     Why  did  you  do  that? 

A.     Well,  the  bookkeeper  had  two  separate  accounts. 

Q.     Two  separate   accounts? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  opened  an  account  this  year  in  a  new  ledger: 
and  the  old  ledger  was  carried  to  suspense  account,  and  I  sup- 
pose that  was  on  the  suspense  account. 

Q.  And  when  you  sent  the  bill  to  the  Governor  you  did  not 
include  that  at  all? 

A.  It  was  n'ot  included.  I  did  not  send  it  to  him;  the  book- 
keeper— 

Q.  When  did  you  collect  the  last  bill  from  the  Governor;  I 
mean  about  when? 

A.     I  can't  tell  that  without  looking  at  the  dates. 

Q.     Last   fall? 

A.     It  has   been   since  June. 

Q.     Since   last  June? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Wasn't  it  last  October? 

A.     I  can't  say  what  date. 

Q.  I  will  ask  if  you  have  no  objections,  and  if  it  is  agreeable 
with  the  committee;  you  can  look  on  your  books  and  find  it,  can't 
you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  you  furnish  it  to  the  committee;  will  you  do  so? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  I  will  ask  you  if  since  that  time,  say,  considering 
whatever  date  it  is,  if  it  was  last  June,  that  will  be  some  eight  or 
nine  months  ago,  if  you  have  ever  presented  to  Governor  Davis  or 
to  Mr.  Page  a  bill  for  that  suspense  account? 

A.     There  has  been  no  bill  presented  since  June. 

Q.  Why  is  it,  then,  if  Mr.  Page  telephoned  you  that  he  would 
prefer  to  pay  those  bills  rather  than  have  any  trouble  about  it,  why 
didn't  he  then  pay  it,  what  was  your  understanding? 

A.     I  don't   know — 


—  75  — 

Q.  Ddn't  you,  at  the  time  that  Mr.  Page  telephoned  you  thit  a 
charge  was  to  be  made  by  the  Attorney  General  that  you  had 
furnished  coal  free  to — 

A.     It  was  intimated  that  it  would  be  made.     I  didn't  know  ii. 
Q.     I   mean  you   did  hear   it  just  like  every   other  citizen   in 
Little   Rock   hoard   it? 

A.     I   did.   I  don't  know   the  time — 

Q.     Well,  that  was  on  the  12th  of  February,  1903? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  heard  it  from  Mr.  Page  himself? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  did  not  take  the  money  at  that  time,  did  you? 

A.     At  that  time  the  conversation  was  over  the  telephone. 

Q.     Did    you   offer    to    take    it? 

A.     I    don't    remember    all    the    conversation. 

Q.     Now,   Mr.  McNair,  you  did  not  offer  to  take  it,  did  you? 

A.  I  dont  know  what  conversation  was  had  about  it.  He 
just  made  that  offer — 

Q.  After  that  you  had  a  conversation  with  the  Attorney 
General  of  the  State  didn't  you  in  regard  to  this  matter? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  him  about  the  telephone  message  at  that  time; 
of  course  it  was  then  fresh  in  your  memory? 

A.     I    think   so. 

Q.  And  didn't  the  Attorney  General  tell  you  that  your  con- 
versation had  been  overheard. 

A.     I  believe  he  did. 

Q.     And  didn't  you  tell  him  that  you  did  not  accept  the  offer? 

A.     No,    sir;    I    did    not. 

Q.  Didn't  he  advise  you  about  the  matter,  or  didn't  you  talk 
it  over  with  him? 

A.  I  talked  it  over  with  him,  but  I  don't  remember  all  that 
was  said. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact  up  to  this  good  time  you  have  not 
accepted  his  offer? 

A.     I  haven't  received  the  money. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  why  it  is  that  you  furnished  to  the  Governor 
of  the  State  and  Mr.  Page  coal,  and  whether  or  not  you  have  fur- 
nished the  Attorney  General  and  other  officials  of  the  State  coal? 

A.     None  of  the  other  officials  have  ever  ordered  coal  of  me. 


—  76  — 

Q.     They  have  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  would  furnish  it  to  them  if  they  had— 

(Question   ruled  out  by   the  Chair.) 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  I  have  never  offered  to  pay  you  my 
bill,  have  I? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Has    anybody    been    listening    at    the    telephone;    General 
Murphy   told    you    that    somebody    had    eavesdropped     and   h-eard 
your  conversation;    do  you  suppose  it  is   possible  they  h»ave  put 
spies  on  our  telephones  ? 

A.     I   don't  know. 

(Chair  ruled  the  foregoing  question  to  be  improper.) 

Q.  Is  that  what  he  said.  How  could  a  conversation  over 
the  telephone  be  overheard  then;  can  you  tell  me  that? 

(Chair  ruled  the  question  out,  and  directed  no  answer.) 

Q.  Didn't  Mr.  Page  tell  you  over  the  'phone;  didn't  he  say 
this  to  you:  "Now,  Mr.  McNair,  you  know  that  I  never  told  you 
not  to  bring  any  bill  to  me;  don't  you  know  that  that  statement 
I  never  made  to  you,  but  I  would  prefer  paying  this  bill  than 
have  any  trouble  come  up  about  it."  Isn't  that  his  statement 
to  you? 

A.  He  made  that  statement,  or  something  like  that.  I  don't 
just  remember  the  exact  language,  though. 

Q.  Is  not  that  his  statement;  didn't  Page  say  this,  "McNair, 
you  know  I  never  said  not  to  present  any  bill  to  the  Governor — 

A.     That  is  about  the  substance  of  it. 

Q.  And  didn't  you  admit  to  him  there  then  you  wouldn't  say 
anything  about  it? 

A.     No,  I  have  no  recollection  of  that. 

Q.  Didn't  he  say,  now  I  would  rather  have  paid  the  Gov- 
ernor's bill  than  have  any  trouble  come  up  about  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  offered  to  pay  you,  and  the  reason  you  did  not  take 
it  you  have  explained. 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q  (By  'Colonel  Murphy)  Did  or  did  not  Mr.  Page  write  out 
a  statement  for  you  to  execute  on  the  12th  of  this  month? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Where  is  it? 

A.     I  think  it  has  be'en  destroyed. 


—  77  — 

Q.    Who   destroyed   it? 

A.     I  can't  say  that. 

Q.     Did  you  refuse  to  sign  it  because  it  was  not  true? 

A.  Well,  I  refused  to  sign  it  because,  as  I  said  to  him,  I 
dcn't  care  to  make  any  more  remarks  about  it  at  all. 

Q.     Do  you  know  what  has  been  done  with  that  statement? 

A.     Yes,   sir;    I  think   I   do. 

Q.     What? 

A.     I  threw   it  away. 

Q.     Where  did  you  throw  it  to? 

A.     I  can't  tell  you. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Has  not  this  Joe  Moore  and  this 
fellow  Taylor  wanted  you  to  make  an  affidavit  to  this  matter,  and 
you  declined  to  do  it.  Haven't  they  tried  to  get  you  to  sign  a 
statement? 

A.     I  declined  to  make  any  more  statements. 

Q.  Then  they  tried  to  get  you  to  sign  a  statement  about  it, 
Joe  Moore  and  Taylor? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Didn't  you   decline   to  do   that? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  You  stated  to  them  if  you  made  any  more  statements 
about  the  matter  that  you  preferred  not  to  make  them  on  oath? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Futrell)  How  were  these  bids  let  to  furnish  the 
Charitable  Institutions? 

A.  They  just  ask  for  bids,  and  all  who  wish  to  bid  put  in 
bids  on  furnishing  the  coal  for  a  year. 

Q.     Were  the  bids  sealed? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Who  passed  upon  those  bids? 

A.     The   Charitable  Board. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Does  Governor  Davis  belong  to  that 
board? 

(No  answer  heard.) 

An  adjournment  was  here  taken  to  Tuesday  night  at  7  o'clock 
p.  m.,  on  the  24th  day  of  February,  1903, 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Means  Committee 


ON 


Tuesday,  February  24, 
1903 


INDEX. 

MR.  T.  H.  BUNCH. 


T.  H.  BUNCH,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testifies 
as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Bunch,  is  there  a  coal  bill  on 
your  books  against  me? 

A.     I  understand  so  from  Mr.  McNair.     I  don't  know  it  of  my 
own  knowledge,  only  he  tells  me  it  is  there. 
Q.     Have  you  ever  examined  your  books? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  don't  know  whether  there  is  or  not? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  authorized  Mr.  McNair  to  give  me  any  coal 
free  of  charge. 

A.  Not  that  I  know  of.  Mr.  McNair  runs  the  entire  coal 
business.  I  don't  pay  much  attention  to  it;  of  course  I  take  a  kind 
of  an  interest  in  the  business  in  a  general  way.  If  he  has  given 
you  any  coal  I  don't  know  it. 

Q.     And  if  he  has  not  you  don't  know  it? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)     Mr.  Bunch,  what  relation  do  you  bear 
to  the  T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  Company? 
A.     I  am  the  owner  of  it,  sir. 

Q.     If  you  know,  what  relation  does  Mr.  McNair  bear  to  it? 
A.     He  runs  the  business. 

Q.     Has  he  had  any  instructions  from  you  or  your  company  to 
furnish  Governor  Davis  any  free  coal? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  If  there  is  an  account  on  your  book 
against  me,  that  is  payable  to  you,  is  it  not? 

A.  Payable  to  the  T.  H.  Bunch  Coal  Company,  which  is  practi- 
cally the  same  thing. 

Q.     You  never  give  that  to  me? 
A.     No,  sir;  I  never  give  you  anything. 

Q.     (By  General  Murphy)     Whatever  Mr.   McNair  did  in  the 
coal  business  was  satisfactory  to  you? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Adjournment  taken  to  7:30  o'clock  p.  m.,  of  February  25, 
1903. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN   BEFORE  THE 


Ways   and    fleans    Committee 


ON 


Wednesday,  February  25, 


1903 


INDEX. 

HON.  JOHN  M.  MOORE. 
HON.  GEO.  W.  MURPHY. 
COPY   OF  CONTRACT. 


HON.  JOHN  M.  MOORE,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Colonel  Moore,  you  are  a  practicing 
lawyer? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  reside  in  Little  Rock,  Ark.? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  Edward  Urquhart? 

A.     I  do. 

Q.  Did  you  act  as  attorney  for  him  in  connection  with  the 
sale  of  this  farm  to  the  board? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  just  tell  the  committee  in  your  own  way, 
Mr.  Moore,  your  connection  with  the  matter;  and  if  you  had  any  con- 
versation or  negotiations  or  interview  with  the  members  or  the 
Attorney  General,  tell  that  also? 

A.  Mr.  W.  H.  Miller,  who  represented  Mr.  Urquhart  in  the 
transaction,  came  to  my  office  a  few  weeks  before  the  same  was 
made  and  told  me  that  he  contemplated  making  a  proposition  to 
sell  the  Cummins  place  to  the  State  Board  of  Penitentiary  Com- 
missioners, and  he  wanted  me  to  prepare  a  proposal  to  be  submitted 
to  it  at  a  meeting  to  be  held  sometime  in  the  future,  and  he  told 
me  at  the  time  that  he  wanted  to  offer  it  to  them  for  $140,000.  I 
told  him  that  I  would  prefer  that  he  come  a  little  later — sometime 
before  the  meeting  of  the  board,  sometime — some  three  or  four 
weeks;  and  so  ha  came  in  later,  and  he  told  me  what  he  wanted  ma 
to  prepare.  In  the  meantime  I  looked  up  the  statutes  to  see  what 
authority  the  board  had.  Well,  when  Mr.  Miller  came  to  my  office 
be  then  told  me  the  terms  upon  which  he  wanted  to  make  th^ 
proposition.  He  had  found  out,  or  understood  in  some  sort  of  a 
way,  that  the  board  would  be  able  to  pay  $30,000  or  $40,000—1 
think  it  was  $30,000,  possibly  $40,000— available  proceeds  from  the 
crops  of  1902,  as  a  cash  payment,  and  he  told  me  that  the  board 
expected  to  be  able  to  pay  the  farm  out  in  the  course  of  a  couple 
of  years,  if  they  should  make  the  purchase.  I  do  not  remember 
and  won't  attempt  to  state  the  conversations  I  had  with  him  in 
detail,  but  the  substance  of  them  was  that  I  told  Mr.  Miller  that 
I  thought  the  better  way  would  be  to  make  a  proposition — put  it 
in  the  form  of  a  contract  and  submit  it  to  the  board.  So  I  prepared 
a  contract  embodying  the  provisions.  I  think  Mr.  Miller- had  told 
me  that  he  would  like  to  have  a  substantial  cash  payment,  and  so 
the  cash  payment  was  to  be  $30,000,  and  $10,000  was  to  be  paid 


—  86  — 

on   or   about   the   10th   of  January,    1903,   and   the    residue   of   the 
purchase  money  in  the  fall,  I  believe  about  the  first  of  December, 
1903,  and  the  same  date  in  1904.     Mr.  Miller  told  me  that  Colonel 
Urquhart    was    anxious    to    have    the    matter    secured    so    that    he 
would   have   no   trouble   in   case   there   should   be  no   close   of   the 
trade,  being  that  it  was  a  contract  with  a  public  body,  and  I  told 
him  that  he  could  not  institute  a  suit  against  the  State,  that  he 
would  have  to  rely  upon  such  remedies  as  he  could  acquire  by  his 
ownership  of  the  title  to  the  property.     In  view  of  that  I  prepared 
a  draft  of  a  contract,  -wherein  I  made  provision  in  regard  to  the 
deferred    payments    in    1903    and    1904,    that   if   there    should   be   a 
failure  or  refusal  to  make  the  payments  that  he  would  be  entitled 
to    retake   the    property.     Mr.    Miller    told    me    in    that    connection, 
that  if  the  State  e^ould  surrender  possession  of  the  place  that  the 
labor  would  be  disburcca  and  probably  it  would  be  quite  an  expense 
to  get  it  together,   enough   so   as  to  resume  possession   and   work 
the  place,  and  that  they  would  like  to  have  a  positive  agreement 
by  which   in  the   event   that  the   property   should   be    returned    to 
them  that  the  State  should  rent  them  convict  labor  and  charge  them 
for  it  at  a  low  price,  so  I  made  a  provision  to  the  contract — or  the 
contract  provided  that  in  case  of  the  refusal  of  the  State  to  make 
payment,  and  in  case  that  Urquhart  would  have  to  take  the  place 
back,   the   board   should   hire  him   sufficient  number   of  convio.ts  to 
work  the  place  for  a  year,  I  believe  at  50  cents  a  day.     The  draft 
of   the    contract    that    I    had    prepared    provided    for    the    absolute 
payment  of  the  balance  of  the  purchase  money,  part  of  which  was 
to  be  paid  on  the  first  of  January.  1903,  at  a  period  or  month  later 
in  that  year  and  1904.     I  told  Mr.   Miller  that  I  had  prepared  it, 
but  that  I  had  some  doubt  about  the  power  of  the  board  to  enter 
into  a  contract  of  that  sort,  for  the  reason  that   the  statute  pro- 
vided that  the  payments  should  be  made  out  of  the  proceeds  of  the 
labor  of  the  convicts,  and  that  if  that  was  not  sufficient  to  make  the 
payment,  or  the  amount  that  was  specified  to  be  paid,  and  I  did  not 
know  whether  they  would  be  willing  to  enter  into  a  contract  of  that 
kind  or  not.     I  told  him  that  I  imagined  the  beard  would  ask  the 
opinion   of  the  Attorney  Genera]   on   any  contract,   and   I  thought 
it  would  be  best  to  submit  it  to  the  Attorney  General,   and  have 
his  views  about  it.     And  in  view  of  that  I   went  and  prepared  a 
draft  of  this  contract  from  the  data  he  had  furnished  me,  and  I  went 
to   confer  with   the  Attorney   General,   Mr.   Murphy,    and   ask   him 
if  he  had  any  recommendations  to  offer  in  case  a  provision  of  that 
sort   was  mentioned    in   the   contract — if   he   would    recommend    it. 


—  87  — 

He  called  my  attention  to  the  provision  and  the  validity  of  it,  and 
he  told  me  he  would  not  recommend  the  contract;  and  he  called 
my  attention  to  this  Fit"  ision  of  the  statute  that  the  price  of  the 
farm  should  be  paid  out  of  the  proceeds  of  convict  labor,  and  he 
told  that  he  did  not  think  the  board  had  the  power  to  do  otherwise, 
and  he  would  so  advise  them  as  Attorney  General,  to  make  a  con- 
tract providing  for  the  payment  of  any  definite  ,or  stipulated 
amount,  or  of  any  of  the  deferred  payments,  and  it  should  be  change  1 
in  that  respect  so  that  the  payments  should  be  made  out  of  the 
proceeds  of  the  labor  of  the  convicts.  He  told  me  also  that  hp 
would  not  recommend  the  making  of  a  contract  to  hire  Colonel 
Urquhart  convict  labor  in  case  the  contract  should  fail;  and  that 
he  did  not  believe  that  any  other  member  of  the  board  would  be 
willing  to  do  it.  And  so  I  went  and  talked  with  Mr.  Miller,  and 
told  him  the  result  of  my  conversation  with  Mr.  Murphy,  and  his 
suggestion  that  I  should  re-draft  the  contract.  I  did  re-draft  the 
contract.  I  loft  out  the  provisions  relating  to  convict  labor,  and 
I  inserted  in  the  provision  about  the  payment.  I  stated  that  the 
$50,000  would  be  made,  I  think,  the  3rd  of  December,  1903,  and  the 
same  December  3,  1904;  would  be  made  provided  the  surplus 
proceeds  of  the  convict  labor  was  sufficient  to  justify  it;  and  he 
said  he  was  not  particular  about  the  payment  of  the  amount  so 
he  got  his  interest.  He  did  not  insist  that  the  principal  should 
be  paid  provided  the  interest  was  paid.  I  prepared  a  contract  for 
him  and  wrote  a  letter  of  communication  to  the  board  and  sub- 
mitted the  proposal  of  Colonel  Urquhart  to  sell  to  it  the  Cummins 
place.  That  contract  was  delivered,  I  believe  I  myself  handed  it 
to  the  Secretary  of  State  during  a  board  meeting.  That  is  all  I 
know  about  it.  I  had  no  conversation  with  any  other  member  of 
the  board  but  that  with  Colonel  Murphy,  and  that  conversation  I 
have  given,  or  the  substance  of  it;  except  some  conversation  in 
regard  to  the  abstract  of  title;  I  gave  him  information  in  regard 
to  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  about  the  time  that  contract  was  signed  up. 
Colonel  Mcore? 

A.  The  bid  was  put  in,  handed  in  to  the  board  probably  about 
two  o'clock,  maybe  it  was  two  or  three  in  the  afternoon,  and  was* 
accepted,  and  it  was  signed  up  I  think  that  afternoon,  I  think  in 
the  office  of  the  Secretary  of  State  by  part  of  the  members  and  my 
impression  is  that  then  one  or  two  members  signe-1  it  about  six  or 
seven  o'clock  in  the  evening.  That  is  my  impression  about  it. 


—  88  — 

Q.     When  was  the  payment  of  the  $30,000  made? 

A.     On  the  same  day. 

Q.     What  time? 

A.     After  the  contract  was  signed  up. 

Q.     That  would  have  been  about  seven  o'clock  in  the  evening? 

A.  Well,  about.  I  don't  know.  I  think  it  was  signed  along 
about  seven  o'clock. 

Q.     How  was  it  paid? 

A.  Mr.  Cook  paid  it  by  check  I  think,  delivered  the  check  to 
W.  H.  Miller,  endorsed  by  the  Financial  Agent,  upon  it. 

Q.  He  is  the  penitentiary  Purchasing  Agent,  Mr.  Cook,  he  paid 
it  to  him  you  say? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  it  was  handed  to  Mr.  Miller.  I  am  not  sure 
about  that.  It  may  have  been  handed  to  me  and  I  may  have  handed 
it  to  Mr.  Miller,  I  am  not  sure  about  that. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Colonel,  I  just  want  to  understand  it; 
I  just  want  to  ask  you  whether  I  heard  it  right,  if  I  understand  one 
proposition  that  you  related  in  your  evidence;  did  I  understand  you 
to  say  that  it  was  your  opinion  and  Attorney  General  Murphy's  and 
that  you  explained  to  Mr.  Miller  that  in  the  purchase  of  this  farm 
that  it  could  only  be  paid  for  out  of  the  proceeds  of  convict  labor 
made  on  the  farm? 

A.  No,  you  did  not  understand  me  to  say  that.  I  did  not  say 
that. 

Q.  You  meant  to  say  that  it  was  or  could  be  paid  out  of  any  con- 
vict labor,  upon  that  farm  or  any  other? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  really  I  didn't  know  what  the  Attorney  Gen- 
eral's opinion  was. 

Q.  Well,  was  this  contract  signed  up,  signed  up  by  the  parties 
before  night  on  the  day  that  it  was  presented? 

A.  My  impression  was  that  it  was  perhaps  between  two  or  three 
o'clock,  I  don't  remember;  some  of  the  members  signed  it  just  a 
little  while  after  the  meeting  of  the  board  had  broken  up.  I  carried 
it  myself  to  Governor  Davis  to  get  his  signature.  After  these  other 
members  of  the  board  who  were  present  had  signed  it  I  carried  it 
to  Governor  Davis  and  he  declined  to  sign  it.  But  one,  possibly 
two  of  the  members  signed  it  along  about  night. 

Q.     Along  about  night? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  it  was  after  that  time  then  that  the  Financial  A.gent 
paid  the  $30,000? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


Q.  Now  why  I  ask  this  question,  it  was  stated  in  Governor 
Davis'  message  I  believe  that  the  contract  was  signed  after  night, 
the  deal  consummated  after  night  and  the  money  paid  over  after 
night;  now  when  you  presented  the  contract  to  Governor  Davis  was 
that  after  night? 

A.  No,  it  was  about,  I  should  say  about  four  o'clock  in  the 
afternoon. 

Q.  Was  it  understood  at  that  meeting  had  at  two  o'clock  that 
afternoon  that  the  board  was  to  meet  at  ten  o'clock  the  next  day 
for  the  purpose  of  consummating  that  deal? 

A.  It  was  understood,  at  my  suggestion  now,  that  there  was  no 
hurry  to  close  it  up,  that  it  could  be  done  the  next  morning,  but 
it  was  not  my  suggestion  to  adjourn  the  meeting  over  until  the  next 
morning.  Everything  was  closed  and  some  two  or  three  members 
of  the  board  had  signed  it,  or  some  of  the  members,  I  believe  there 
is  five  members  of  the  board,  and  there  was  two  or  three  of  them  had 
signed  it  in  the  Secretary  of  State's  office  and  Governor  Davis  had 
refused  to  sign  it;  and  there  was  one  or  two  members  were  not  pres- 
ent, and  I  said  it  could  be  closed  just  as  well  the  next  morning;  so 
I  left  the  contract  there  in  the  office  of  the  Secretary  of  State  and 
went  on  up  to  my  office.  Later  on,  I  was  about  ready  to  leave 
my  office,  but  had  not  left  yet,  Mr.  Miller  came  in  and  told  me  that 
Governor  Davis  had  expressed  a  disposition  to  stop  the  trade  or  get 
out  an  injunction,  I  don't  know  how  it  occurred,  whether  Governor 
Davis  had  made  such  expressions  to  Mr.  Miller  or  not,  I  don't  know; 
but  he  had  the  impression  that  Governor  Davis  was  going  to  enjoin 
the — or  get  an  injunction  to  stop  the  sale.  And  he  said  he  wanted 
the  trade  straightened  out,  and  said  if  it  was  not  carried  out  then 
he  would  not  carry  out  the  contract  at  all,  as  he  didn't  want  to  lose 
his  place  or  have  it  involved  in  a  lawsuit,  and  he  wanted  it  closed 
up  at  once  and  thought  it  would  be  better  to  close  it  up  than  to  leave 
it  open  and  run  a  risk  of  that  sort,  and  I  told  him  it  was,  and  on 
that  account  it  was  closed  up  that  evening. 

Q.  Governor  Davis  had  not  told  you  then  that  the  owners  of 
this  farm  would  likely  get  into  trouble  by  injunction  proceedings. 
A.  No,  sir;  Governor  Davis  did  not  tell  me  that;  but  I  think 
he  called  me  up  on  the  telephone  that  evening  or  the  next  morn- 
ing and  told  me  that  he  wanted  to  notify  me,  in  order  that  I  might 
notify  Colonel  Urquhart,  that  he  was  going  to  try  and  prevent  the 
sale;  and  he  was  going  to  do  everything  in  his  power  to  prevent 
the  trade  being  carried  through,  if  he  was  compelled  to  convene  the 
legislature  about  it. 


—  CO  — 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Moora,  did  you  tell  Governor 
Davis  how  it  was  that  the  contract  happened  to  be  prepared,  and 
how  it  was  that  I  had  seen  it  or  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    I  explained  that  to  Governor  Davis. 

Q.  Had  you  explained  that  to  him  before  he  delivered  his  mes- 
sage to  the  Senate  or  after? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  two  or  three  weeks  before.  I  will  tell  you  how 
that  was.  Governor  Davis  called  me  up  on  the  telephone  one  day 
at  my  office,  and  began  to  ask  me  some  questions.  I  recognized  his 
voice  and  knew  who  it  was,  and  by  the  way  he  spoke  I  rather  sus- 
picioned  that  he  thought  I  would  not  be  willing  to  talk  freely  with 
him  about  it;  but  I  asked  him  if  that  was  not  Governor  Davis,  and 
he  said  it  was,  and  he  wanted  to  know  if  there  had  been  any  change 
made  in  the  contract  between  the  time  it  was  submitted  to  the  board 
and  the  time  it  was  executed,  and  I  told  him  there  had  been  no 
change  made  in  it  except  an  interlineation  suggested  by  Mr.  Murphy, 
the  Attorney  General,  providing  that  the  vendor  would  procure  the 
relinquishment  of  his  wife's  dower;  that  it  had  been  omitted  in  the 
drawing  of  the  contract,  and  Colonel  Murphy  represented  that  it 
ought  to  be  put  in,  and  that  was  done  by  interlineation.  Governor 
Davis  then  asked  me  if  there  was  any  other  changes  made  in  it  anl 
I  told  him,  or  if  that  was  the  only  change  made  in  it  and  I  told  him 
yes.  He  then  asked  me  some  other  questions,  asked  if  I  had  any 
conversation  with  some  other  members  of  the  board  and  I  told  him 
I  had;  that  I  had  *  had  a  conversation  with  Colonel  Murphy,  the 
Attorney  General,  and  I  told  him,  not  going  into  the  details,  but  I 
told  him  as  plain  and  fully  as  such  matters  are  generally  done  over 
a  telephone,  of  my  conversation  with  Mr.  Murphy. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  time  Colonel  Urquhart  signed  that 
contract  and  acknowledged  it? 

A.  He  signed  it  I  believe,  he  signed  it  before  it  was  signed  by 
the  members  of  the  board.  I  think  he  signed  it  prior  to,  I  think 
he  signed  it  immediately  after  it  was  accepted  by  the  board.  My  im- 
pression is  that  he  signed  it  immediately  after  it  was  accepted  by 
the  board.  I  am  not  positive  about  it,  but  to  the  best  of  my 
recollection  it  was  then.  The  matter  I  am  hesitating  about  is  this, 
I  do  not  know  what  day  I  had  Colonel  Urquhart's  signature  placed 
to  that  contract,  but  I  know  I  handed  it  in  to  the  board,  and  I  am 
not  certain  just  when  it  was,  I  am  not  clear  about  that. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Had  any  other  member  of  the  board 
Sopn  *>i<3  pontract  before  it  was  presented  that  day? 


—  91  — 

A.  No,  sir;  no  member  of  the  board  had  ever  seen  it  before 
I  presented  it.  Mr.  Murphy  had  seen  the  original  draft  a  day  or 
two  before;  but  I  had  redrafted  it  and  made  some  alterations,  and 
he  had  not  seen  it  after  it  was  redrafted. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  When  you  presented  the  contract  to 
Governor  Davis,  was  it  after  the  other  members  of  the  board  had 
signed  it  or  before? 

A.  I  think  that  two  members  of  the  board  had  signed  it  in  the 
office  of  the  Secretary  of  the  State,  leaving  a  blank  space  for  his 
signature  at  the  top. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  the  board  adjourned,  was  that  about 
the  time  the  contract  was  sign-sd? 

A.  I  was  not  present  when  the  board  adjourned.  I  went  in  ta 
the  Secretary  of  State's  office  at  the  meeting  of  the  board  and  went 
on  back  to  my  office  and  was  afterwards  notified  that  that  propo- 
sition had  been  accepted  and  then  came  over  to  the  Secretary  of 
State's  office  for  the  purpose  of  closing  it  up. 

Q.  That  was  when  the  Governor  told  you  that  the  owners  of 
the  property  were  likely  to  get  into  trouble  by  injunction 
proceedings? 

A.  The  Governor  called  me  up  over  the  telephone  either  that 
evening  or  the  next  morning. 

Q.     After  his  refusal  to  sign  the  contract? 

A.     I  think  so;  yes,  sir. 

GEORGE  W.  MURPHY,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Your  name  is  George  W.  Murphy? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  are  the  Attorney  General  of  the  State? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     As  such  are  you  a  member  of  the  Penitentiary  Board? 

A.     I  am. 

Q.     Were  you  at  the  time  of  the  purchase  of  the  Cummins  place? 

A.     I   was. 

Q.  Please  make  your  statement  in  your  own  language  of  what 
you  know  concerning  the  purchase  of  that  place? 

A.  The  Governor  in  his  message  says  that  a  majority  of  the 
board  were  pledged  about  twelve  months  before  this  purchase  to 
the  purchase  of  the  Beakley  farm.  If  such  is  the  case  I  know 
nothing  of  it.  If  I  am  counted  amongst  the  majority,  then  that  was 
not  the  case.  I  admit  that  I  was  favorably  inclined  towards  the 
Beakley  farm,  having  never  seen  it  in  wet  weather.  There  was  a 


—  92  — 

lake  upon  it  that  would  be  advantageous  and  furnish  facilities 
for  sewerage  and  a  drainage  and  a  basin  for  water,  but  I  never  had 
any  intention  of  purchasing  it  after  I  learned  that  a  large  part  of  it 
was  wet  and  was  not  fit  and  openly  declared  that  I  would  not.  I  had 
seen  it  only  in  the  summer  time.  No  proposition  was  ever  made  to 
purchase  that  farm  by  any  member  of  the  board,  knowing  the  wet 
character  of  it,  although  a  large  part  of  the  land  was  above  the 
average.  Consideration  was  postponed  and  the  only  propositions 
to  purchase  a  farm  after  that  at  all  began  some  eight,  eleven  or 
twelve  months  afterwards,  was  that  of  the  Governor  to  purchase  the 
Altheimer  and  Haywood  farm.  The  majority  of  the  board,  because 
that  was  wet  land,  and  had  no  facilities  or  means  of  drainage, 
refused  to  join  in  the  purchase,  and  there  was  where  the  first  wrang- 
ling that  occurred  in  the  board  about  the  purchase  of  a  farm;  and 
the  Governor  proceeded  to  take  them  to  task  about  it.  There  was  no 
wrangling  over  the  Beakley  farm  at  all.  Some  time  after  that,  some 
months,  or  several  months,  Mr.  Miller  came  into  my  office,  W.  H. 
Miller,  whom  I  understand  to  be  the  son-in-law  of  Mr.  Edward 
Urquhart,  and  expressed  a  desire  to  put  in  a  proposition  to  sell  the 
Cummins  and  Goree  or  Maple  Grove  plantations.  I  asked  him  a 
good  deal  about  it.  where  it  was  situated,  and  so  on,  and  asked  him 
his  price,  and  he  told  me  it  was  $150,000.  He  told  me  that  he  had 
seen  several  members  of  the  board,  and  he  said  he  had  seen  the 
Governor,  and  that  the  Governor  told  him  that  he  thought  the 
Altheimer  place  was  the  one  to  be  bought;  the  only  suitable  place 
for  a  convict  farm,  but  if  he  had  an  offer  to  make  around  $15  an  acre 
that  he  might  see  the  other  members  of  the  board  and  make  an  offer. 
He  again  came  to  me  and  told  me  that  he  had  again  been  to  see 
the  Governor  but  had  not  seen  him  but  had  seen  his  private 
secretary.  I  again  asked  him  what  was  the  lowest  price  he  could 
sell  the  farm.  He  said  at  $150,000;  that  it  paid  ten  per  cent  on  that 
and  that  it  was  a  good  investment  and  that  he  was  wanting  to  sell 
it  on  account  of  deficiency  of  labor.  I  stated  to  him  that  I  doubted  if 
the  board  would  buy  a  farm,  but  if  he  wanted  to  put  in  a  proposition 
to  figure  the  matter  down  to  the  very  lowest  price  that  he  would 
accept  and  not  depend  on  dickering  with  the  board  about  that,  that 
if  they  bought  the  farm  he  would  have  to  sell  it  for  a  reasonable 
price,  and  that  no  price  that  was  not  the  lowest  that  he  would  accept 
under  any  consideration  would  not  likely  be  considered  reasonable. 
I  heard  no  more  about  it  until  in  board  meeting  my  attention  was 
called  to  the  fact  that  he  and  others  had  put  in  propositions.  My 
attention  was  first  called  to  these  propositions  at  the  board  meeting  of 


September  19,  1902.  Governor  Davis  was  not  present  at  that  meeting. 
Judge  Hill  offered  a  resolution  revoking  a  resolution  offered  that  the 
Beakley  and  Altheimer  farms,  that  were  up  for  consideration  before, 
restricting  the  consideration  of  the  board  to  those  farms,  and  the 
proposition  of  W.  H.  Miller  to  sell  the  Cummins  and  Maple  Grove 
places  in  Lincoln  County,  and  that  J.  E.  Turpin  to  sell  34,000  acres 

near  Palarm;  that  of  E.  B.  Houston  to  sell  11,500  acres  in 

County  known  as  the  Simms  place,  were  read.  At  the  following 
meeting  on  the  3d  of  October,  all  the  members  were  present.  The 
minutes  were  read  embracing  the  propositions  of  Miller,  Turpin 
and  Houston,  and  the  Governor  offered  a  resolution,  which  will  be 
found  on  page  320,  and  a  resolution  to  receive  bids  or  propositions 
to  sell  a  convict  farm,  for  an  indefinite  time,  was  passed.  I  say  the 
Governor  was  present  at  that  meeting,  and  I  offered  that  resolution, 
and  that  all  the  minutes  were  read.  You  will  find  this  on  pages  320, 
and  321,  of  the  board's  record.  At  the  following  meeting  on  the 
17th  of  October,  1902,  as  was  the  course,  the  minutes  were  again 
read;  Governor  Davis  was  present  and  offered  another  resolution 
reciting  that  as  a  majority  of  the  board  seemed  disposed  to  buy  a 
convict  farm,  as  we  were  not  farmers,  we  should  appoint  Captain 
R.  R.  Rice,  of  Varner,  Lincoln  County,  Hon.  J.  Smith,  of  Crittenden 
County,  and  Captain  T.  J.  Phillips  of  Jefferson  County,  farmers,  who, 
as  the  resolution  recites,  were  above  the  reach  of  impure  influence 
and  unapproachable,  to  select  a  farm  for  us.  I  contended  that  we 
had  no  right  to  delegate  that  authority,  but  that  we  had  the  oppor- 
tunity to  follow  and  avail  ourselves  of  the  superior  information  and 
experience  of  these  gentlemen  or  any  others;  and  the  resolution 
was  voted  down.  Before  that  time  Judge  Hill  and  I  had  been  and 
examined  the  farms  of  Houston  and  this  farm  that  we  afterwards 
purchased.  That  was  done  under  a  resolution  with  which  Governor 
Davis  was  familiar,  to  which  I  have  failed  to  call  attention.  And  at 
this  meeting  when  Governor  Davis  was  present,  and  our  actual 
expenses  amounted  to  $8.20  were  allowed  as  expenses  incurred  by 
us  in  the  examination  of  the  Cummins  and  Houston  farms,  and  ex- 
pressly so  stated  in  the  order  of  allowance,  and  he  was  present  at 
that  meeting,  and  heard  the  resolution  offered  and  heard  it  passed. 
And  he  WAS  present  at  the  meeting  on  November  7  when  the  minutes 
were  read.  I  get  down  now  to  the  meeting  at  which  the  farm  was 
purchased,  but  before  passing  into  the  actions  of  that  meeting  I 
wish  to  state  to  the  committee  what  was  done,  so  far  as  I  know,  by 
the  members  of  the  board,  in  the  selection  of  the  farm,  or  in  deter- 
mining which  would  be  among  the  various  ones  offered  the  best  the 


—  9i  — 

most  suitable  one.  I  had  gone  to  the  Houston  p'ace  and  from  \v^at 
I  saw  at  all  about  it  I  really  thought,  until  I  got  through,  that  I 
would  prefer  that  place,  the  description  I  had  of  it.  When  1  got 
there  and  saw  it  I  told  Judge  Hill  that  afternoon  we  had  just  as  well 
come  home,  I  would  never  give  my  sanction  to  the  purchase  of  it; 
I  did  not  think  it  was  suitable  at  all.  Mr.  Miller  was  to  meet  us 
at  Varner  on  a  certain  day  and  take  us  out  and  over  his  place.  We 
went  on  to  Varner  and  I  really  hoped  that  he  would  not  meet  us 
there;  I  was  so  disgusted  with  the  first  place  we  had  gone  to  that 
I  just  felt  like  giving  it  up  and  so  stated  to  Judge  Hill.  Mr.  Miller 
did  meet  us,  however,  there  and  we  went  out  with  him.  I  had  in  the 
meantime  heard  that  this  place  had  Johnson  grass  upon  it,  and  I  had 
the  idea  at  that  time  that  people  generally  have,  or  generally  did 
have,  .that  it  practically  invalidated  a  farm  for  cultivation  wher-e  it 
had  taken  possession  of  it,  and  more  only  out  of  a  matter  of  co  irtesy 
than  otherwise  to  Mr.  Miller,  we  went  over  his  farm.  We  saw  where 
it  had  been  well  cultivated  and  where  partially  cultivated  was  as 
fine  cotton  growing  rig!_t  up  to  the  very  edge  of  the  Johnson  grass, 
on  it  as  I  ever  saw  anywhere;  it  was  clean  and  free  from  any 
trouble;  and  I  began  to  consider  that  there  might  be  something 
in  his  statement  that  the  grass  was  not  in  the  way  really.  That  it 
could  be  handled  as  any  other  grass,  and  could  be  exterminated. 
I  devoted  next  day  to  traveling  over  that  land  as  best  I  could,  and 
whenever  I  could  get  any  old  negro  that  was  working  in  it  to  talk 
to  I  would  ask  him  about  it.  I  had  been  cautioned  by  Mr.  Miller, 
or  requested  by  him  not  to  disclose  the  fact  that  we  were  con- 
sidering buying  the  place  at  all,  as  it  would  be  difficult  to  get 
tenants,  and  might  tend  to  drive  the  tenants  away.  I  found  that 
fine  crops  were  growing  upon  that  land;  that  it  produced  on  an 
average  a  bale  of  cotton  to  the  acre  whenever  it  was  worked.  My 
observations  convinced  me  that  with  labor  that  we  could  control, 
or  that  could  be  controlled,  there  would  be  no  difficulty  in  culti- 
vating it,  and  I  left  there  very  favorably  impressed  with  this 
farm.  The  place  is  high,  and  it  was  said  to  be  healthful.  I  could 
see  no  evidence  to  the  contrary.  In  passing  over  the  black  lan-.l 
back  from  the  river,  it  was  just  as  I  had  always  discovered  it  to- 
be — very  fertile.  T  saw  no  objections  to  it  unless  that  Johnson 
grars  was  an  objection.  I  determined  to  investigate  that  further,  and 
I  did.  Soire  weeks  afterwards,  on  coming  up  to  Little  Rock  from 
Pine  Bluff,  I  fell  in  with  Mr.  Leo  Andrews,  a  farmer,  and  one  of  the 
best  and  most  successful  in  the  State,  a  man  who  cultivates  2.000 
acres  of  river  bottom  land,  and  has  made  all  of  his  money,  I  have 


lys  understood,  in  that  way.     But  yet  he  was  in  the  prime  cf 
life,  not  exceeding  thirty-five  or  forty  years  old,  doubtless,  and  h'j 
happened  to  suggest  something  to  me  about  why  we   did  not  buy 
a.  State  convict  farm.     I  told  him  that  we  had  not  been  able  to  find 
a  farm  that  suited  us,  or  that  we  thought  we  could  maintain  as  a 
convict  farm,   off  the  river,   only  on  the  bayous  and   back  in  the 
swamps  where  it  was  wet  and  could  not  be  drained;  and  that  while 
I  felt  if  we  had  a  farm  that  we  thought  it  should  be  on  a  lake  or 
river  in  order  to  get  sewerage,  and  we  were  unable  to  find  a  farm 
on  the  Arkansas  River  that  did  not  have  Johnson  grass  on  it,  and 
I  was  afraid  of  that.     "Why,"  he  said,  "you  should  not  fear  about 
that  at  all;   you  should  not  consider  it;   it  is  not  in  the  way;   you 
can  plant  that  land  with  cotton  and  cultivate  it  for  about  two  or 
three  years,  according  to  the  amount  on  it,  you  give  it  one  or  two 
more  cultivations  just  according  to  the  season — if  it  is  wet  or  dry 
the  first  year,  and  that  will  not  be  in  your  way."     Well,   I   made 
further  investigation  about  it,  and  found  his  statement  corroborated. 
I   got  an   old   report  sent  out  by  the  Agricultural   Department   of 
the  United  States,  in  which  the  experience  of  experts  along  this  line, 
from    the    Gulf   States,   where  this   grass   prevailed,    and    where    it 
was   made,    and   I   found   it   stated   the   same  thing.     Well,    then    I 
wrote    to    Captain   Rice,   to   whom    the    Goverribr   had    proposed    to 
refer  the  matter,  and  to  Colonel  Smith,  and   I   got  a  letter   from 
Rice.     1  haven't  thought  to  bring  it  with  me,  but  I  can  hand  it  to 
the  committee.       Captain  Rice  said  that  he  was  raised  on  a  farm 
adjoining  this,    that  he  had  worked   it   for  ten  years,   and  that   :t 
was  as  healthy  a  place  as  there  was  on  the  river,  and  as  fine  a  body 
of  land  as  could  be  found  in  this  State  or  elsewhere;  and  that  the 
Johnson    grass   was  not   in    the    way.        I    had   mentioned    Johnson 
grass  problem  to  him.     That  that  ought  not  to   be  considered;    it 
was  not  in  the  way.     That  we  could   cultivate  it  out  of  existence 
by  planting  it  in  cctton  and  cultivating  it  well   and  get  rid  of  it 
in  a  very  short  time.     In  my  letter  to  Captain  Rice  I  had  called  his 
attention  to  the  Simmons  Haywood  farm  and  the  Altheimer  farm 
were  offered,  but  that  neither  one  of  the  two  tracts  had  sufficient 
cultivatable  land  for  that  purpose,  and  not  fit  for  that  purpose  at 
all.     He  wrote  me  that  the  Cummins  place  and  the   Maple  Grove 
place  was  worth  one  acre  to  two  of  the  others  at  least.     Colonel 
Smith  wrote  me  two  letters  about  it.     He  said  that  while  he  had 
never  seen  either  farm — I   considered   be   wrote  very   intelligently 
indeed  about  them.     And  about  the  Johnson  grass  proposition,   he 
said  that  if  we  could  get  this  farm  on  the  Arkansas  River  at  $140,000, 


—  96  — 

that  it  would  be  a  good  bargain;  would  be  a  good  investment  for 
the  State.     I  was  invited  by  an  old  friend  and  an  acquaintance,  ani 
perhaps   the   former  associate   of  some   of  these   gentlemen,    down 
in  Crittenden  County,  Judge  Martin,  to  visit  him  and  spend  a  few 
days  in  fishing  and  hunting.     Well,  I  went  down  in  the  fall,  and 
enjoyed  his  hospitality  for  a  few  days.     Something  was  said  there 
about  Johnson  grass,  and  he  said,  "Why  the  seed,  I  brought  here 
and  sowed  it  on  my  farm.  When  I  did  that,  it  was  some  two  or  three 
or  four  years  ago,  they  told  me  that  it  would  take  possession  of  my 
farm,  and  'you  can't  get  rid  of  it.'     Why,"  he  said,  "I  then  conclude  1 
that    I    would   try   and    see    if   that   was    so,    or    if    it   couldn't   b>3 
exterminated,   so   I   moved   in  my   fences  and   I   put  my   plows   to 
going  on  it,  and,"  he  said,  "I  turned  up  that  Johnson  grass  and  I 
planted  it  down,  and,"  he  said,  "it  seems  that  it  had  loosened  up  the 
soil   or  fertilized   it  in   some  way.     The   vegetation   grew   up  very 
rapidly  that  I  planted,  it  out-grew  what  I  had  planted  elsewhere, 
but,"  he  said,   "I  had  to  work   it  hard;    it  was  pretty  hard   work 
until  July,"  and  he  said,  "I  will  go  with  you  in   the  morning  and 
show  you  where  it  was."     In  the  morning  he  took  me  out  and  showed 
me,    and    there    wasn't    a    stalk    of    it    to   be    seen    anywhere.     He 
claimed  to  have  killed  it  out  in  one  season,  by  cultivating  it  in  that 
way,  and  I  think  he  did,  and  I  made  up  my  mind  then  to  vote  for 
the  purchase  of  the  Cummins    and  Maple  Grove  plantations,  that  is, 
if  Judge  Bradford,  whom  I  knew  to  be  a  successful  farmer,  who  was 
to  become  a  member  of  the  board,  approved  of  it,  otherwise  not, 
I  went  afterwards  with  members  of  the  board  and  looked  over  it. 
They  informed  me  that  they  had  made  investigations  by  inquirin?; 
such  as  I  had  done,  both  by  letter  and  verbal  inquiry,  but  probably 
not  so  extensively.     Mr.  Crockett  and  I  had  been  talking  about  a 
farm  before  the  offer  of  this  farm  to  the  State;  and  that  if  we  heard 
that  there  was  probably  Johnson  grass  on  it — we  had  that  idea — 
and  we  just  resolved  then  that  we  would  not  visit  a  farm  that  ha-1 
Johnson  grass  upon  it,  or  look  at  one  that  had  it  on  it  at  all;  I  think 
that  was  about  the  conclusion  we  came  to — that  is  my  recollection. 
But  on  going  over  it,  his  mind  seemed  to  change  about  it;   and  I 
in  my  investigation  changed  my  mind  completely.     On  the  morning 
preceding  the  morning  of  this  purchase  I  think   Colonel  John   M. 
Moore  came  to  me  with  a  contract,  conveying  by  a  letter  a  proposal 
to  the  board  to  sell  it  the  Cummins  and  Maple  Grove  plantations 
on  the  terms  embraced  in  the  contract.     He  said  to  me,  "I  was  asked 
by  Mr.  Miller  to  put  his  proposition  in  form  and  I  thought  the  best 
way  would  be  to  write  out  a  contract  at  his  suggestion  and  one  they 


—  97  — 

would  be  willing  to  make,  and  thinking  that  you  would  probably 
be  called  upon  by  the  board  to  pay  upon  its  terms  submitted,  to 
accompany  it  with  a  letter."  Well,  it  contained  a  provision  that  we 
should  pay  $30,000  cash,  and  $50,000  on  a  given  date,  two  years  after- 
wards, and  $10,000  in  January,  in  all  making  up  the  $140,000.  I 
told  him  the  board  could  not  make  such  a  contract;  that  we  could  not 
buy  that  farm  except  out  of  the  proceeds  of  the  convict  labor,  and 
the  law  would  not  permit  us  to  retrench  upon  it  so  far  as  to  disable 
it  in  conducting  the  penitentiary;  that  we  would  have  to  pay 
expenses  after  that  and  could  only  pay  the  surplus,  and  it 
might  be  that  we  could  not  pay  $50,000  or  any  other  stated  sum; 
that  we  could  only  pay  the  surplus.  That  he  might  name  $50,000 
in  the  contract  if  he  saw  fit,  but  make  the  stipulation  flexible  so  the 
seller  would  have  to  accept  whatever  the  surplus  of  the  penitentiary 
products  would  come  to.  That  he  would  have  to  take  out  that  pro- 
vision that  he  should  have  possession  and  the  contract  be  void  in 
case  we  could  not  pay  the  $50,000  on  the  respective  dates  named — 
the  two  years.  He  had  another  provision  reciting  in  it  that  as  he 
would  lose  his  labor  and  his  tenants  by  the  sale,  that  in  the  event 
he  took  the  place  back,  the  State  would  furnish  him  convict  labor 
enough  to  cultivate  his  farm  for  a  year  at  fifty  cents  per  day  per 
convict.  I  told  him  that  I  could  not  concede  that  point  as  inasmuch 
as  I  would  not  do  it  myself  and  I  would  not  advise  any  member  of 
the  board  to  do  it.  And  I  suggested  to  him  that  after  he  saw  his 
client  he  and  he  would  make  the  contract  flexible  enough  so  that 
he  would  have  to  accept  the  surplus  of  the  proceeds,  even  Chough 
it  be  less  than  stipulated  and  strike  out  the  labor  feature,  that  I 
would  approve  of  the  contract  in  case  the  board  thought  the  Maple 
Grove  and  the  Cummins  plantations  were  suitable  and  the  offer.  He 
went  away  and  I  did  not  see  him  any  more  until  he  came  in  with 
the  contract  that  afternoon  at  the  board  meeting,  and  handed  it  in 
with  a  letter. 

Q.     Colonel,  please  give  us  the  date  of  that  meeting? 

A.  November  21,  1902.  Now  this  contract  which  has  just  now 
been  furnished  me  accompanied  with  a  letter — the  following  letter 
by  Mr.  Moore,  was  handed — not  to  me  as  the  Governor  stated,  but 
to  Mr.  Crockett,  the  Secretary,  and  he  read  it,  and  then  read  the 
contract.  I  give  you  the  letter  accompanying  it: 


Testimony— 4 


—  98  — 

"Little  Rock,  Ark.,  November  21,  1902. 
"To    the  Board    of    Commissioners    for    the    Management    of    the 

Arkansas  Penitentiary: 

"Gentlemen — I  herewith  submit  a  proposition  for  the  sale  to 
your  board,  plantations  known  as  the  Cummins  place  and 
Maple  Grove  place,  which  are  fully  set  out  and  described 
in  the  contract  accompanying  this  communication  to  your  board 
for  a  State  convict  farm.  If  the  contract  is  accepted,  I  am  prepared 
to  carry  it  out  by  delivering  possession  of  the  lands  as  soon  as  it 
can  be  executed  and  the  cash  payment  made,  subject  to  such 
possession,  occupancy  and  delay  as  may  be  necessary  to  enable  me 
to  gather,  gin  and  bale  the  crop  of  cotton  grown  on  the  place  during 
the  present  year.  Respectfully, 

"E.    URQUHART." 

Then  follows  the  contract,  which  I  suppose  it  will  not  be 
necessary  to  read,  or  which  I  suppose  it  will  be  useless 
to  read.  (General  Murphy  to  read  the  contract,  but 

it  is  agreed  by  the  committee  that  the  same  shall  be 
copied  in  the  record,  and  same  is  attached  to  the  deposition  of 
Colonel  Murphy,  and  immediately  follows  his  testimony.)  Now, 
as  I  stated,  this  contract  with  the  communication  was  handed  to  Mr. 
Crockett,  and  he  read  it.  I  found  it  to  have  eliminated  the  objec- 
tionable features  that  I  had  called  Mr.  Moore's  attention  to. 

Q.     Give  us  the  date  of  the  contract,  Colonel  Murphy,  please? 

A.  It  is  dated  the  21st  of  November,  1902.  As  presented  to  tht, 
board  it  was  in  complete  conformity  with  the  idea  I  had  suggested 
to  Mr.  Moore;  the  elimination  of  the  objectionable  features  having 
been  made.  Judge  Bradford  and  myself  were  at  this  meeting  on  the 
21st  appointed  a  committee  to  ascertain  from  Mr.  Miller,  not  from 
the  other  offerers  of  plantations,  the  lowest  price  that  he  would  take 
for  that  farm.  We  called  him  and  we  questioned  him  before  the 
board  and  interrogated  him  there.  He  said  that  $140,000  was  the 
lowest  price  at  which  it  could  be  sold.  He  did  not  state  that  the 
place  was  covered  with  Johnson  grass,  but  he  did  state  that  there 
was  Johnson  grass  upon  it.  He  did  not  state  that  they  were  buying 
Johnson  grass  seed  in  Alabama  for  fertilizer,  but  he  did  state  that 
the  best  land  around  Montgomery,  State  of  Alabama,  was  Johnson 
grass  land.  I  did  not  state  to  Mr.  Miller  that  if  $140,000  was  the 
lowest  price  he  would  accept  for  the  land  that  we  would  buy  it,  as 
the  message  of  the  Governor  says,  for  I  did  not  know  what  the  mind 
of  the  board  would  be.  It  is  untrue  that  we  had  had  a  conference 
before  the  present  conference  of  the  board  at  which  this  purchase 
was  determined  upon.  I  said  nothing  of  the  kind  to  Mr.  Miller. 


but  I  believed  then  as  I  believe  now  that  that  farm  was  a  splendid 
offer  for  the  State,  and  all  things  considered,  by  all  lights,  the  best 
proposition  that  had  been  made  to  it  for  a  convict  farm,  and  I  moved 
the  board  that  we  purchase  it,  and  they  did  purchase  it.  It  is  not 
true  that  I  told  General  Green  before  this  proposal  was  made,  or  at 
any  other  time,  that  we  could  not  make  a  cash  payment.  It  is  not 
true  that  I  told  him  that  the  only  means  we  would  have  for  the 
payment  of  that  or  any  other  farm  if  we  bought  it,  would  be  out  of 
the  proceeds  of  the  farm.  I  did  tell  General  Green,  who  wanted 
either  $180,000  or  $189,000  cash  for  his  body  of  land,  which  it 
seemed  was  owned  by  half  a  dozen  separate  owners,  that  we  could 
make  only  a  proportionately  small  payment  in  cash,  for  the  reason 
that  we  did  not  have  the  money  to  pay  such  a  sum,  and  I  did  tell 
him  further,  when  he  was  asking  me  how  the  price  would  be  paid, 
that  we  could  only  pay  it  out  of  the  proceeds  of  convict  labor.  It 
is  not  a  fact  that  we  members  of  the  board  told  him  to  see  his 
clients  as  quick  as  he  could  and  report  back.  But  my  impression 
is  that  I  probably  told  him  if  he  was  going  to  see  them  at  all,  to 
see  them  as  soon  as  he  could.  I  felt  that  we  never  could  harmonize 
those  five  or  six  owners  on  the  proposition  of  the  different  payments 
out  of  the  surplus  of  the  proceeds  of  the  convict  labor.  Further- 
more, I  thought  this  farm  was  preferable  to  that  land  down  there 
anyway.  It  really  seemed  more  suitable — more  desirable.  Governor 
Davis,  as  a  substitute  to  my  proposition  to  purchase  this  farm, 
offered  that  we  appoint  five  farmers  as  a  committee  to  purchase  it 
for  us,  or  to  purchase  a  farm  for  us;  that  being  voted  down  on  the 
theory  that  we  had  no  power  to  delegate  the  authority  the  law  had 
intrusted  to  us.  He  then  offered  a  resolution  to  postpone  it  alto- 
gether, until  the  meeting  of  the  General  Assembly,  so  that  they 
might  remedy  what  he  called  a  defect  in  the  law,  or  our  power  to 
purchase;  he  claiming  that  we  were  at  a  disadvantage.  The  sub- 
stitutes being  voted  down  upon  the  proposition  to  purchase  the  farm 
carried;  and  I  wish  to  call  the  committee's  attention  now  to  the 
resolution,  and  just  how  it  was,  gentlemen,  in  that  connection. 
(Reading  from  record  book.)  "Mr.  Murphy  moved  that  the  board 
accept  the  proposition  of  Edward  Urquhart,  as  set  forth  in  the  copy 
of  the  contract  read  before  the  board,  to  sell  the  State  the  farms 
known  as  the  Cummins  and  Maple  Grove;  and  to  direct  the  Financial 
Agent  to  pay  the  cash  payment  of  $30,000  on  the  execution  of  the 
contract  and  acknowledgment  of  the  same  by  Edward  Urquhart. 
And  that  the  president  and  secretary  of  the  board  sign  the  contract 
ar,  such,  and  that  all  other  members  of  the  board  who  will  do  so 


-  100  — 

sign  the  same."  Now,  Mr.  Urquhart  acknowledged  it  right  after 
the  board  adjourned.  He  acknowledged  it  within  office  hours.  He 
executed  and  acknowledged  it  before  five  o'clock,  and  my  belief  ir 
was  before  four.  Not  an  office  in  the  State  house,  and  none  of  the 
offices  upstairs,  at  any  rate,  were  closed.  Then  Mr.  Moore  took  it, 
after  it  was  signed  and  acknowledged  by  Mr.  Urquhart,  and  signed 
by  myself  and  Mr.  Crockett,  and  I  think  Judge  Bradford,  also — 1 
am  not  sure  about  that — he  said  he  was  going  to  carry  It  to  the 
Governor's  office,  and  went  there,  for  the  Governor's  signature.  He 
took  it  and  went  into  the  Governor's  office.  What  occurred  there 
I  have  no  personal  knowledge  of.  It  is  not  true  that  any  confer- 
ence was  held  after  that  meeting  of  the  board  had  adjourned.  It 
is  not  true  that  the  Financial  Agent  was  hustled  up.  It  is  so  far  as 
I  know,  not  true  that  any  member  of  the  board  had  one  word  to  say 
about  the  payment  or  any  payment  of  that  money  after  that  meeting 
adjourned.  What  I  know  about  it  and  the  direction  under  which  T 
did  know  is  the  direction  in  this  resolution  that  required  him  to 
pay  the  money  when  Urquhart  signed  and  acknowledged  that  con- 
tract, and  which  I  assert  most  positively  was  done  within  office 
hours,  and  not  after  night.  I  did  not  see  all  the  members  of  the 
board  sign  this  contract.  I  did  not  know  when  Mr.  Monroe  may 
have  signed  it,  but  I  do  say  that  the  signature  of  any  member  of 
that  board  was  not  necessary  to  bind  Urquhart.  If  Mr.  Urquhart 
signed  it  and  acknowledged  it  then  was  when  the  payment  to  be 
made.  It  did  not  matter  whether  all  the  members  of  the  board 
signed  it  or  not.  The  payment  was  not  to  depend  upon  their  signa- 
ture, but  only  on  that  of  Mr.  Urquhart,  accompanied  with  his  acknowl- 
edgment. It  is  not  true  that  the  board  adjourned  for  the  purpose  of 
closing  up  the  contract  the  next  morning.  I  can  better  show  that 
by  the  records.  After  the  motion  to  accept  the  proposition  was 
carried  you  find  the  following  account:  "Mr.  Murphy  moved  that 
Mr.  Urquhart  be  called  on  to  acknowledge  and  sign  the  contract, 
which  motion  was  carried,"  and  right  after  that  he  did  it.  "Ad- 
journed until  ten  o'clock  tomorrow."  Now,  that  adjournment  was 
not  for  the  purpose  of  having  these  papers  signed  up  and  the  deal 
closed.  That  was  done  already.  Nothing  anywhere  was  said 
about  it.  Now,  the  next  entry  is  the  entry  the  following  day.  "A 
majority  of  the  board  being  present  the  minutes  of  the  previous 
meeting  were  read  and  approved.  It  appearing  that  the  contract 
entered  into  with  Edward  Urquhart  for  the  purchase  of  a  convict 
farm  has  been  executed  and  acknowledged,  and  that  the  cash  pay- 
ment of  $30,000  has  been  made  by  the  Financial  Agent  of  the  Peni- 


—  101  — 

tentiary;  Resolved,  that  the  aforesaid  action  of  the  board  and  the 
Financial  Agent  be  approved,  and  that  the  Financial  Agent  file  a 
duplicate  receipt  with  the  board;  and  that  the  same  be  attached 
to  the  contract;  and  that  the  secretary  of  this  board  notify  the 
Superintendent  of  the  Penitentiary  of  the  purchase  to  the  end  that 
he  may  take  steps  to  take  possession  of  the  lands  purchased  for  a 
convict  farm."  And  then  follows  the  adjournment.  I  say  now, 
gentlemen,  that  I  believe  men  never  exercised  more  diligence,  care 
and  prudence  about  their  action  in  this  matter  than  we  did  in  this 
instance.  For  myself  I  know  that  I  should  never  have  voted  for  the 
purchase  had  I  not  been  satisfied  that  it  was  the  thing  to  do.  You 
know,  all  of  you,  that  this  farm  proposition  had  been  agitated,  and 
the  Governor  himself  had  stated  that  if  he  could  get  a  farm,  on  the 
stump,  in  his  speeches,  that  he  would  buy  a  convict  farm.  That  he 
had  been  promising  to  do  it,  and  that  he  had  been  contending  for  it 
all  along.  So  far,  as  the  farm  being  covered  with  Johnson  grass 
and  being  swampy  and  overflowed,  why  it  is  not  ordinarily  any 
worse  than  any  other  Arkansas  River  farm  that  I  know  anything 
about.  This  investigation  convinced  me  that  that  was  a  fact.  I 
have  understood  and  I  was  so  informed  in  making  my  investigation, 
that  every  seven  or  eight  years,  on  an  average,  there  comes  an  over- 
flow in  this  river  bottom,  and  pretty  well  all  the  lands  overflow- 
when  that  comes;  and  that  that  land  is  far  less  subject  to  overflow 
than  most  of  the  land  down  there.  While  it  is  a  fact  that  the  front 
part  of  it  is  on  the  river  it  does  not  become  submerged;  and  that 
the  only  water  that  does  effect  that,  is  when  it  would  break  out  of 
the  river  some  twelve  or  fifteen  miles  above  and  work  itself  into 
cypress  creek  and  so  back  out  on  the  back  part  of  it;  the  part  that 
is  not  cultivated,  and  even  that  was  not  very  extensive.  Now,  the 
board  has  had  a  good  deal  of  trouble  with  Governor  Davis.  We 
have  had  a  great  deal  to  endure  from  him.  He  has  endeavored  to 
force  his  will  right  square  upon  us,  right  or  wrong,  and  without 
consideration,  and  regardless  of  their  feelings  if  they  refused  to 
agree  or  side  with  him.  It  is  his  nature.  It  is  his  disposition.  He 
never  saw  the  Cummins  or  the  Maple  Grove  places,  at  least  he  did 
not  go  to  see  it  when  we  went  to  look  at  it.  I  don't  know  that  he 
ever  did  see  it.  He  didn't  want  to  look  at  it,  because  he  wanted 
to  buy  the  Altheimer  farm,  and  we  went.  That  farm,  if  it  had  other 
merits  for  that  kind  of  a  farm,  was  not  large  enough,  not  fit  for  a 
convict  farm.  It  was  not  suitable,  in  fact  I  was  disappointed  with 
it;  but  that  is  what  he  wanted  to  buy.  He  insisted  upon  it.  And 
all  this  about  our  action  comes  from  the  fact  that  he  was 


disappointed  in  not  getting  the  Altheimer  place — he  was  mad 
because  he  did  not  get  to  buy  the  Altheimer  place.  If  we  had  gone 
with  him  on  that,  it  would  have  been  all  right.  Why,  he  told  me 
that  he  exacted,  or  had  an  execution  from  Colonel  Monroe,  a  writing 
that  he  would  join  him  in  the  purchase  of  the  Altheimer  place,  as 
a  condition  of  his  not  bringing  out  a  candidate  against  him  for  his 
second  term.  He  told  me  that  himself,  the  Governor  did.  Now  I 
am  ready  to  be  asked  any  questions. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  This  second  resolution  introduced  by 
Governor  Davis  that  a  committee  of  farmers  be  appointed  to  pur- 
chase a  farm,  were  the  five  farmers  named  in  the  resolution? 

A.  Not  in  the  second  resolution  of  that  sort;  they  were  named 
in  the  first  resolution  he  made  of  that  nature.  I  think  they  were 
not  named  in  the  other,  I  am  satisfied  they  were  not.  No,  they  were 
not  named  in  the  second  resolution  of  that  nature;  just  a  resolution 
to  appoint  a  committee  of  from  three  to  five  farmers. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  General  Murphy,  the  message  states 
that  the  State's  crop,  or  a  major  portion  of  it — seven  hundred  and 
fifty  bales — was  sold  the  day  or  the  day  before  by  the  Financial 
Agent,  preparatory  for  this  trade,  and  sold  too,  as  he  claims,  unde;- 
an  order  of  the  board,  in  the  lowest  market  that  existed  this  year 
for  the  sale  of  cotton,  what,  if  anything,  do  you  know  concerning 
that  fact? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  that  is  erroneous.  I  do  not  reckon  I  was 
in  the  city  at  the  time  of  that  sale  I  think  that  occurred  when  I 
was  down  at  Judge  Martin's.  I  know  that  Mr.  Cook  came  to  me 
and  asked  my  advice  about  selling  the  cotton  and  wanted  to  get  a 
board  meeting  and  get  the  board's  direction,  but  I  told  him  I  had 
to  go  away,  and  I  think  maybe  Mr.  Monroe  was  at  the  time  absent, 
and  I  told  him  it  was  not  necessary  for  me  to  be  here  and  that  the 
board  I  supposed  would  be  governed  by  his  judgment;  that  he  would 
have  to  see  the  cotton  men  and  learn  the  most  he  could  get  for  it, 
and  he  could  largely  use  his  own  judgment.  That  he  might  ask 
the  board  about  it,  though.  He  might  ask  their  approbation  and 
any  advice  that  he  saw  fit;  but  I  am  satisfied  I  advised  him  to  sell 
or  not  to  sell  it  according  as  he  thought  the  market  good  or  if  it 
was  favorable  to  do  so.  There  was  a  time  when  the  cotton  market 
was  very  uncertain;  I  don't  know,  I  think  it  was  going  down  and 
looked  like  it  would  go  lower.  I  wouldn't  trust  my  own  judgment 
in  such  a  thing  as  that,  I  would  have  gone  to  the  cotton  men;  I 
didn't  know  anything  about  it,  what  changes  or  fluctuations  tho 
cotton  market  might  undergo.  It  was  not  sold  by  any  order  of  the 


—  103  — 

board  so  far  as  I  know;  and  it  was  not*  sold  on  any  suggestion  of 
mine,  unless  that  be  a  suggestion,  I  think  I  told  him  that  he 
ought  to  take  the  best  advice  he  could  get  and  consult  with  the 
cotton  men,  and  sell  when  he  thought  it  best  and  most  prudent. 

Q.  Do  the  minules  of  that  meeting  show  any  order  of  the  board 
to  direct  him  to  sell  that  cotton  for  the  purpose  of  making  this 
payment? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  saw  such  a  record,  and  I  have  gone  over 
them  pretty  careful  since  this  thing  come  up.  If  there  is  any  such 
record  there  it  has  escaped  my  vision. 

Q.     The  minutes  do  not  show  it? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Crutcher)     Colonel,  who  writes  up  these  minutes? 

A.  Mr.  Crockett,  the  Secretary  of  State;  he  is  the  Secretary  of 
the  board.  I  don't  know;  he  generally  writes  them  up  in  our 
presence  there  as  we  are  transacting  the  business. 

Q.     You  don't  know  anything  about  who  does  write  them  up? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  thought  he  did  it.  It  may  be  now  that  one  of  his 
clerks  does  that;  or  else  he  copies  them  on  a  separate  paper  and 
transcribed  them  afterwards;  he  might  do  that,  I  am  not  certain. 
I  never  paid  much  attention  to  that. 

Q.  Now,  about  what  length  of  time,  General,  ensued  during  the 
pendency  of  this  transaction? 

A.  I  can't  tell  you.  I  cannot;  no,  sir.  Yes — no;  I  can't  either, 
because  Mr.  Miller  was  asking  about  this  matter  some  months,  I 
think,  before  he  put  in  his  offer.  I  can't  get  at  it,  some  months 
before — some  months,  something  about  that,  though. 

Q.     Was  his  offer  put  in  before  you  visited  the  farm? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  he  made  it — well,  oh,  several  days  at  least. 

Q.     When  was  his  proposition  put  in,  do  you  know? 

A.  The  proposition  of  Mr.  Miller  was  put  in  there  on  the  19th 
of  September  or  sometime  about  then;  I  am  not  quite  sure — I 
mean  the  offer.  It  was  filed  with  the  Secretary  of  State  or  the  secre- 
tary of  the  board,  and  Mr.  Miller  had  been  to  see  me  about  it  some — 
9h,  at  least  two  or  three  months  before  that.  I  don't  know  whether 
he  had  seen  the  other  members  of  the  board  or  not,  except  what  I 
have  learned  from  his  statement. 

Q.  The  filing  of  that  contract  was  not  the  beginning  of  that 
transaction? 

A.  No,  sir.  You  see  his  offer  was  made  as  early  as  the  19th  of 
September,  and  the  purchase  was  made,  if  I  recollect  right,  on  the 
21st  of  November;  a  little  over  two  months  afterwards. 


—  104  — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Colonel  Murphy,  at  the  time  that 
Urquhart  made  and  acknowledged  this  deed,  did  the  board  have  any 
knowledge  that  this  cotton  had  been  sold,  and  that  the  $30,000 
was  on  hand  to  make  this  cash  payment? 

A.     I  think  I  did  at  the  time,  myself. 

Q.     From  whom  did  you  obtain  that  knowledge? 

A.  I  think  from  the  Financial  Agent,  I  am  not  sure.  I  can't 
recollect  that  only  I  know  that  I  would  not  have  moved  a  cash  pay- 
ment unless  I  had  thought  or  I  had  known  that  we  had  the  means 
to  pay  it  with.  I  think  I  learned  that  the  cotton  was  sold  after  I 
got  back  from  Judge  Martin's. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Colonel,  I  believe  you  stated  that  you 
visited  that  farm  and  inspected  it  in  person? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  down  there  for  the  purpose — I  mean 
on  the  place? 

A.     Something  over  a  day,  I  reckon. 

Q.  About  what  proportionate  part  of  that  farm  was  covered 
with  Johnson  grass,  as  far  as  you  ascertained? 

A.  Well,  now  you  will  have  to  have  a  little  explanation.  Miller 
had  put  in  the  land  in  cotton  and  his  labor  had  left  him  and 
part  of  it  now  we  found  in  Johnson  grass  pretty  thick.  On  that 
that  had  been  cultivated,  I  suppose  you  might  say  on  the  whole, 
probably  there  was  three  or  four  hundred  acres,  that  you  might 
say  was  covered  with  Johnson  grass,  possibly  sodded  in  it;  but  the 
farm  had  all  been  sodded,  so  I  learned,  but  there  was  then  only, 
what  I  suppose  you  might  call  Johnson  grass  sodded  on  it  any- 
where from  two  to  four  hundred  acres  where  the  plow  had  not  been 
put  it  all.  Now,  I  suppose,  if  you  count  that  poorly  cultivated  cotton 
where  the  hands  had  left,  and  it  had  received  but  one  working,  and 
if  you  count  that  covered  in  Johnson  grass,  I  expect  you  would 
have  eight  or  nine  hundred  acres;  because  it  looked  to  me  like 
there  was  that  much  of  the  uncultivated  land  with  the  sodded 
Johnson  grass. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  of  that  farm  is  in  a  state  of 
cultivation? 

A.  I  have  been  told  there  was  twenty-four  hundred  acres,  with 
an  opening  ready  for  cultivation  except  fencing  of  about  two  or 
three  hundred  acres.  I  think  there  is  that  much. 

Q.  Did  you  take  any  notice  of  that  levee  that  has  been  spoken 
of  so  much  in  connection  with  that  place? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  105  — 

Q.     About  what  does  that  levee  amount  to? 

A.  Well,  I  expect  you  could — I  could  only  describe  it  to  you. 
Probably  at  some  places  it  is  about  four  feet  high,  some  not  that 
much  and  others  maybe  a  little  higher.  It  is  a  small  levee,  a  light 
levee. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  country  between  that  farm 
and  the  railroad  station — traveling  condition. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so.  In  wet  weather  the  route  or  the  road 
throughout  is  pretty  bad — to  the  railroad.  It  has  been  neglected, 
and  it  is  this  black  waxy  land,  and  there  is  a  good  deal  of  hauling 
down  there,  or  enough  to  cut  up  the  roads  a  good  deal.  Good  roads 
could  be  made  there,  but  it  has  not  been  done.  They  are  in  a  bad 
condition  now.  It  would  not  be  a  pleasant  job  to  go  from  Varner 
over  that  place,  because  there  is  Cypress  Creek  that  you  have  to 
cross,  and  if  it  has  been  raining  any,  why,  it  is  pretty  bad. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  whether  you  can  go  from 
Varner  to  that  farm  or  not  during  high  water;  or  whether  the  travel 
is  affected — I  mean  the  route  between  Varner  and  the  farm  Is 
affected  so  that  the  high  water  would  make  it  impossible  to 
travel  it? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  how  it  would  be  in  case  the  river  over- 
flowed. But  I  should  judge  it  would  not  be  impassable  at  any  time, 
except  you  might  get  into  deep  mire  when  you  cross  Cypress  Creek; 
but  that  is  from  two  and  a  half  to  four  miles  back  of  the  farm 
towards  Varner,  and  that  runs  through  the  black  land,  and  when 
the  river  overflows  above  there  it  comes  into  that  creek,  I  am 
satisfied.  I  never  saw  it  overflowed,  but  I  know  it  would  from  the 
foundation  of  the  land.  I  guess  the  river  running  into  the  creek 
might  make  it  impossible  to  cross  it,  but  I  don't  think  it  would  at 
any  other  time. 

Q.  Leaving  that  proposition  now  and  going  to  the  consumma- 
tion of  this  deal.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  Mr.  Miller  or 
Mr.  Moore — Mr.  Moore,  I  believe  it  was — had  presented  you  a  draft 
of  that  contract,  or  in  other  words  a  copy  of  that  contract  that  you 
afterwards  consummated,  the  day  or  the  day  before — or  the  day 
you  had  the  meeting  at  two  o'clock? 

A.  I  think  it  was  the  day  before  that  he  presented  me  a 
form  of  a  contract — not  a  copy  of  this,  however,  for  this  was  very 
materially  altered. 

Q.     And  so  you  suggested  certain  alterations  in  that,  did  you? 

A.  I  may  have  stated  it  that  way — it  meant  about  the  same 
thing.  I  told  him  that  I  would  advise  the  board  to  make  a  contract 


— 106  — 

of  that  sort.     That  he  would  have  to  make  some   changes — some 
alterations,  as  I  have  stated  before. 

Q.  Now,  the  day  that  you  met  to  take  into  consideration 
whether  you  would  accept  Miller's  proposition  on  this  farm,  wasn't 
Colonel  Moore  at  that  meeting? 

A.  Colonel  Moore  came  into  the  meeting  while  we  were  in 
session. 

Q.     Did  he  present  that  contract  to  you  then? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  presented  it  to  the  Secretary  of  State.  He  had 
done  that  before,  but  at  that  time  he  presented  it  to  the  Secretary. 

Q.  You  mean  at  the  time  of  this  particular  meeting  he  pre- 
sented it  to  the  Secretary  of  State? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  that  contract,  with  the  alterations,  was  accepted — 
did  I  understand  you  to  say  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  was  one  immaterial  change.  I 
think  there  was  one  alteration  I  suggested  made. 

Q.  I  believe  you  read  from  your  journal  there  that  you  had 
adjourned  from  that  meeting  to  meet  the  next  day  at  ten  o'clock, 
did  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Colonel  Moore  stated  on  the  stand  there — I  believe 
you  heard  him — that  he  suggested  that  you  adjourn  and  sign  it  up 
or  finish  this  contract  matter  the  next  day  at  ten  o'clock.  I  believe 
I  have  stated  that  correct? 

A.     No,  sir;   you  are — 

(Colonel  Moore  here  comes  forward  and  says:  I  was  not  in  the 
meeting  at  the  time  they  adjourned.  I  was  only  in  the  meeting 
several  minutes.  I  had  some  work  in  the  Auditor's  office,  or  the 
Auditor's  room,  and  I  went  in  and  handed  the  papers  to  Mr. 
Crockett,  and  went  out.  I  was  not  present  at  that  meeting  when  it 
adjourned.  After  the  meeting  had  adjourned,  I  learned  that  the 
contract  had  been  accepted,  and  I  went  to  the  office  of  the  Secretary 
of  State  and  I  found  there  Mr.  Crockett,  and  I  believe  Mr.  Murphy 
and  possibly  Mr.  Bradford — I  am  not  sure  about  him,  signing  the 
contract;  and  after  they  had  signed  it  I  took  it  in  to  Governor 
Davis  and  he  declined  to  sign  it.  Mr.  Monroe  was  not  there;  and 
I  am  not  Sure,  as  I  stated  a  moment  ago,  whether  Mr.  Bradford 
was  or  not,  and  the  fact  I  referred  to  is,  that  I  made  the  suggestion 
that  it  could  go  over  to  to-morrow  morning,  I  expect  that  was  the 
suggestion  you  have  reference  to.) 

Q.     Mr.    Moore,   you   knew   nothing   of  the   meeting   the   next 


—  107  — 

morning,  but  you  just  suggested  that  it  could  go  over  to  to-morrow 
morning? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  did  not  understand  that  the  meeting  had  been 
adjourned  until  the  next  morning. 

Q.  (Mr.  Whitley,  continuing  his  interrogation  of  Colonel  Mur- 
phy) Now,  Colonel,  I  want  to  ask  why  the  object  was  for  that 
meeting  adjourning  that  evening  to  meet  to-morrow  morning  at  ten 
o'clock? 

A.  I  have  no  special  recollection,  but  my  supposition  is  that  it 
was  done  for  the  purpose  of  making  arrangements  to  take  posses- 
sion of  the  farm. 

Q.     And  not  to  finish  the  sighing  up  of  this  contract? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  know  outside  of  the  parties  that  signed  that 
contract  in  your  presence,  you  did  not  know  when  the  others  signed 
it — what  time  during  the  evening? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  about,  when  Mr.  Urquhart  signed  it — about 
the  time. 

Q.     When  did  Mr.  Urquhart  sign  it,  what  time? 
A.     Mr.  Urquhart  signed  it  a  very  short  time  after  that  propo- 
sition was  accepted.     Between  four  and  five  o'clock.     It  may  have 
been  as  early  as  four  o'clock.     I  am  certain  it  was  not  as  late  as  five 
o'clock. 

Mr.  Moore — After  I  was  in  formed  that  the  contract  had  been 
accepted  I  took  a  carriage  and  went  to  Mr.  Urquhart's — he  was 

stopping  out  here  at  ,  and  drove  him  down  to 

the  Statehouse  and  he  went  with  me  to  the  Secretary  of  State's 
office  and  signed  the  contract  at  the  very  time  that  Mr.  Crockett 
signed  it,  and  that  was  not  later  than  four  o'clock,  and  probably 
a  little  after  three  o'clock. 

Q.  (Mr.  Whitley,  continuing  his  interrogation  of  Colonel  Mur- 
phy) Did  you  know  during  that  meeting  where  the  Purchasing 
Agent  was,  or  who  it  was  that  instructed  him  to  make  this  payment 
that  evening? 

A.  I  do  not  know  how  I  learned  it,  but  the  board  instructed 
him  in  that  resolution;  but  I  don't  know  who  conveyed  the  fact  to 
him. 

Q.  You  don't  know  when  he  made  the  payment  during  the 
evening? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  don't  know  anything  about  it; 
Q.     Do  you  know  whether  he   made   it  after  night  or  before 
night? 


—  108  — 

A.  I  do  not  know.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge  at  all 
about  it. 

Q.     You  have  no  knowledge  about  the  payment  of  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Weaver)  General,  this  route  that  you  spoke  of 
between  Varner  and  this  farm,  it  is  a  mail  route,  is  it  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  am  told  that  it  was. 

Q.     Do  not  two  mail  carriers  pass  over  it  each  way  every  day? 

A.  I  don't  know,  Mr.  Weaver,  about  that.  You  see  I  was  only 
down  there  one  day  examining  the  farm;  but  I  think  there  is  a  post 
office  down  there,  and  they  are  bound  to  go  with  the  mail  through 
there. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Futrell)  Is  it  usual  or  not  for  the  board  to  make 
an  order  for  the  sale  of  cotton? 

A.  I  had  not  been  on  the  board  but  one  season,  and  I  really 
can't  tell  you  whether  they  made  an  order  or  not,  but  I  think  rather 
the  board  recommended  it.  I  believe  at  one  time  before  he  did  make 
a  sale  that  he  come  and  got  Mr.  Crockett  and  myself  and  some 
other  member,  a  majority,  to  go  and  confirm  his  sale,  thinking  that 
he  had  made  a  good  sale.  I  think  he  came  and  asked  us  to  do  it, 
and  we  did  go  together  at  night  to  do  it,  because  he  said  the 
bidders  would  not  hold  the  matter  over,  that  he  had  to  do  it  then 
or  not  at  all.  It  seems  that  they  were  a  little  bit  cranky  about  it. 
They  wanted  to  make  a  bid  as  I  gathered  from  him,  and  they 
wanted  it  accepted  right  then  or  not  at  all. 

Q.  It  is  largely  left,  then— these  sales,  to  the  judgment  of  the 
Financial  Agent,  subject  to  be  approved  by  .the  board? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir;  it  is  necessarily  left  to  him,  or  almost  neces- 
sarily so,  because  you  see  we  can't  watch  the  market  and  his 
judgment  would  be  much  better  than  ours. 

Q.  Was  there  any  approval  by  that  board  of  the  sale  of  this 
cotton  by  the  Financial  Agent? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  there  is.  I  don't  know  that  any  action 
was  taken  upon  it.  Perhaps  Mr.  Crockett  can  answer  you  that 
question  better  than  I  can.  I  might  overlook  something. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  General,  does  the  Financial  Agent  have 
to  acount  to  anybody  for  his  transactions? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir;  he  has  to  account  to  the  board.  He  is  under 
a  $45,000  bond,  I  believe,  for  his  faithful  conduct.  The  board  has 
to  look  over  everything  that  he  does.  They  bring  in  requisitions 
for  goods  and  things  to  the  board  and  the  board  directs  the  pur- 
chase, and  where  they  buy  those  things  that  are  bought  in  quantity, 


they  advertise  for  bids,  parties  usually  present  their  bids  to  the 
board — that  is  the  custom. 

Q.     Does  he  buy  the  supplies  for  the  penitentiary  on  bids? 

A.  The  way  the  supplies  are  bought,  the  Superintedent  makes 
requisitions  and  they  are  brought  into  the  board  and  read  and  are 
approved  and  then  he  buys  them;  but  he  is  required  to  buy  them 
on  the  lowest  market.  The  board  does  not  always  accept  the 
lowest  bid  that  is  offered,  though. 

Q.  When  this  cotton  was  sold,  do  you  know  what  price  it 
brought? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not.  But  I  am  of  the  impression  that  it  was 
not  of  the  lowest  market  of  the  season  at  all,  but  cotton  has  been 
sold  higher  since.  That  impression  or  opinion  of  mine  is  hardly 
worth  anything  because  I  was  not  here  right  at  the  time.  I  am 
satisfied  I  was  away  when  that  sale  occurred. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Futrell)  Was  the  $30,000  cash  payment  made 
upon  an  Auditor's  warrant  or  a  check? 

A.  I  don't  know  how  it  was  paid.  It  was  paid  when  he  got  the 
man's  receipt  for  it;  but  I  did  not  see  it  paid. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  The  board  had  authorized  that  pay- 
ment? 

A.      Yes,  sir;  had  directed  it. 

Q.     You  say  the  board — 

A.  (Continuing)  You  see  the  board  is  in  a  neglected  shape 
as  to  that;  if  the  board  puts  anything  in  the  treasury  it  can't  get 
it  out  again,  and  while  I  think  it  is  wrong  to  that,  I  think  we 
ought  to  have  some  judicial  determination  of  the  matter;  for  if  it 
should  turn  out  to  be  that  way  the  board  would  have  to  have  some 
legislation  or  else  it  would  run  aground. 

JOHN  M.  MOORE,  being  recalled,  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Colonel  Moore,  can  you  tell  the 
board  what  time  in  the  afternoon  or  evening  that  $30,000  was  paid 
over? 

A.     I  told  you  about  night. 

Q.     About  what  hour? 

A.  I  can't  tell  about  the  hour,  but  I  suppose  it  was  between 
six  and  seven  o'clock. 

Q.     Before  or  after  dark,  do  you  remember? 

A.     Well,  I  should  say  about  dark.     I  think  it  was  about  dark. 

Q.     Where  was  it  paid? 

A.  It  was  paid — my  impression  it  was  paid  with  a  check 
presented  to  Mr.  Miller  at  the  office  of  the  Secretary  of  State. 


110 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  it  happened  that  the  Financial  Agent  was 
there;  was  he  sent  for? 

A.  As  I  told  you  before,  I  think  Mr.  Miller  probably  did,  as 
I  said  Mr.  Miller  came  to  me  after  I  supposed  the  matter  was 
satisfactorily  disposed  of  or  determined,  and  after,  I  think,  I  had 
gone  to  my  office — after  I  had  stated  that  the  matter  could  be  closed 
up  the  next  morning  and  I  had  gone  to  my  office,  and  later — not 
a  great  while  before  I  was  ready  to  go  home  Mr.  Miller  came  to  my 
office  and  made  and  told  me  that  if  he  made  the  sale  he  wanted  to 
get  the  matter  closed  up,  and  I  suppose  he  went  and  hunted  up  the 
Financial  Agent;  that  is  my  supposition,  I  don't  know  personally 
about  this.  But  the  payment  was  made  as  I  have  stated. 

Q.  The  payment  was  made  and  the  transaction  concluded 
before  you  went  home  to  supper? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Mr.  Moore,  you  say  that  was  paid  by 
check? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it  was  paid  by  check  on  the  German 
National  Bank,  or  either  the  German  or  the  Exchange  Bank. 

Q.     It  was  a  bank  here  in  town? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

An  adjournment  was  here  taken  until  7:30  o'clock  on  the  26th 
day  of  February,  1903. 

This  contract  entered  into  on  the  21st  day  of  November,  1902, 
by  and  between  Edward  Urquhart,  of  Little  Rock,  Arkansas,  party 
of  the  first  part,  and  the  Board  of  Commissioners  for  the  manage- 
ment of  the  Arkansas  State  Penitentiary,  labor  of  convicts,  machin- 
ery, buildings  and  all  other  property  thereto  belonging,  composed 
at  present  of  Jeff  Davis,  Governor  of  said  State  of  Arkansas;  T.  C. 
Monroe,  Auditor  of  the  State  of  Arkansas;  Jno.  W.  Crockett,  Secre- 
tary of  the  State  of  Arkansas;  H.  T.  Bradford,  Commissioner  of 
Mines,  Manufactures  and  Agriculture  of  the  State  of  Arkansas,  and 
George  W.  Murphy,  Attorney  General  of  the  State  ofArkansas,  party 
of  the  second  part, 

Witnesseth— 

First.  That  the  party  of  the  first  part  hereby  agrees  and  bonds 
himself,  his  heirs,  executors  and  administrators,  to  sell  and  convey 
to  the  party  of  the  second  part,  for  a  convict  farm  for  the  State  of 
Arkansas,  as  herein  stipulated,  the  following  described  lands, 
situated  in  Lincoln  County,  State  of  Arkansas,  together  with  all 
accretions  thereto  made  by  the  Arkansas  River,  and  now  lying 
between  said  lands,  or  any  part  thereof,  and  said  river,  to-wit: 


—  Ill  — 

All  of  fractional  Section  Seventeen  (17);  the  East  half  of  Sec- 
tion  Nineteen    (19);    the   Southwest  fractional  quarter  of  Section 
Nineteen    (19);   all  of  Section  Twenty    (20);   all  of  fractional  Sec- 
tion  Twenty-one    (21);    all   of   Section   Twenty-one    (21)    South   of 
the  Arkansas  River;  all  of  Section  Twenty-three  (23)  South  of  the 
Arkansas  River;    all   of  Section   Twenty-five    (25);    all  of  Section 
Twenty-six  (26);  all  of  Section  Twenty-seven   (27);  all  of  Section 
Twenty-eight  (28);   all  of  Section  Twenty-nine  (29);  the  East  half 
of  Section  Thirty  (30);  the  Northwest  fractional  quarter  of  Section 
Thirty  (30);  the  North  half  of  Section  Thirty-one  (31);  the  North 
half  of  Section  Thirty-two   (32);  the  North  half  of  Section  Thirty- 
three    (33);    the   North    half   of   Section    Thirty-four    (34);    all   of 
Section  Thirty-five  (35);   all  in  Township  Seven   (7)   South,  Range 
Five  (5)   West,  and  known  as  the  Cummins  plantation;   the  South 
fractional  half  of  Section  Thirty-four   (34);   the  East  half  East  of 
Boone  Lake,  of  Section  Thirty-three   (33);   in  Township  Seven   (7) 
South,  Range  Five   (5)   West;   all  of  the  Northeast  quarter  of  Sec- 
tion  Four    (4);    East   of   Boone    Lake;    the   Northwest   quarter   of 
Section   Three    (3);    the   North    fractional    half   of   the   Northeast 
quarter  of  Section  Three  (3),  and  the  Southwest  quarter  of  Section 
Three  (3),  all  in  Township  Eight  (8)  South,  Range  Five  (5)  West, 
known  as  the  Maple  Grove  plantation,  for  the  sum  of   ($140,000) 
One  Hundred  and  Forty  Thousand  Dollars,  to  be  paid  out  of  the 
produce  of  the  labor  of  the  convicts  as  hereinafter  provided. 

Second.  The  party  of  the  first  part  hereby  covenants  and  agrees 
for  himself,  his  heirs,  executors  and  administrators,  that  he  will, 
when  the  party  of  the  second  part  shall  make  the  cash  payment 
hereinafter  provided  for,  place  them  in  possession  of  said  lands, 
and  that  when  the  party  of  the  second  part,  or  their  successors, 
shall  have  paid  one-half  of  the  purchase  money,  he  will  execute  and 
deliver  to  the  party  of  the  second  part,  or  to  their  successors,  a 
deed  in  fee  simple,  with  conveyance  of  title  and  warranty,  and 
relinquishment  of  dower,  conveying  the  said  land  to  the  State  of 
Arkansas,  or  to  such  other  person  as  may  be  designated  herein- 
after by  law,  if  the  law  should  be  changed  in  this  respect. 

Third.  The  party  of  the  second  part  hereby  agree  to  purchase 
said  lands  from  the  party  of  the  first  part  for  a  convict  farm  for 
the  State  Arkansas,  and  agree  for  themselves  and  their  successors, 
that  they  will  pay  the  party  of  the  first  part  $140,000  therefor  out 
of  the  labor  and  products  of  labor  of  the  said  convicts  under  their 
management,  $30,000  in  cash,  $10,000  on  or  before  the  first  day  of 
January,  1903,  $50,000  on  or  before  the  first  day  of  January,  1904, 


—  112  — 

and  $50,000  on  or  before  the  first  day  of  January,  1905,  with  interest 
on  said  deferred  payments  from  date  until  paid  at  the  rate  of  six 
per  cent  per  annum,  the  interest  to  be  paid  annually  on  the  first 
day  of  December,  and  on  the  first  day  of  December  of  each  suc- 
cessive year  thereafter,  until  all  the  purchase  money  is  paid. 

Fourth.  But  if  the  deferred  payments  herein  provided  for  can 
not  be  fully  made  at  the  times  stipulated  without  reducing  the 
proceeds  of  the  labor  and  products  of  said  convicts  to  such  an  extent 
that  enough  of  said  proceeds  would  not  be  left  over  in  the  hands  of 
said  board,  or  their  successors,  to  support  and  maintain  the  con- 
victs and  the  State  convict  farm,  they,  the  party  of  the  second  part, 
for  themselves  and  their  successors,  agree  and  bind  themselves  and 
their  successors  to  set  apart  and  pay  to  the  party  of  the  first  part 
on  said  several  deferred  installments  or  payments,  as  the  same  shall 
mature,  all  of  the  proceeds  of  the  labor  of  said  convicts  of  the  State 
of  Arkansas  that  may  not  actually  be  needed  to  maintain  and 
support  said  convicts,  and  the  State  convict  farm,  and  carry  on  the 
business  thereof,  shall  not  be  sufficient  in  any  year  to  pay  the 
installment  matured  in  said  year  in  full,  the  party  of  the  first  part 
agrees  for  himself,  his  heirs,  executors  and  administrators,  to  accept 
and  apply  upon  said  installments  of  principal,  in  their  order,  such 
proceeds  not  actually  needed  for  the  support  and  maintenance  -jf 
the  convicts  and  said  farm,  as  the  party  of  the  second  part  and 
their  successors  may  be  able  to  pay  him  from  the  proceeds  or  fund 
arising  from  the  labor  of  the  State  convicts,  as  aforesaid,  and  to 
extend  the  time  for  payment  of  the  residue  of  such  installment 
or  installments  for  such  time  as  may  be  necessary  to  enable  the 
party  of  the  second  part,  or  their  successors,  to  pay  the  same  out 
of  the  surplus  proceeds  arising  from  the  labor  of  the  convicts. 

Fifth.  It  is  agreed  between  the  parties  that  if  the  party  of  the 
second  part  or  their  successors  shall  fail  or  refuse  to  pay  any  annual 
installment  of  interest  on  the  aforesaid  purchase  money  in  full,  at 
the  maturity  thereof,  then,  this  contract  may,  at  the  option  of  the 
party  of  the  first  part,  be  rescinded,  and  thereupon  the  party  of  the 
second  part,  or  their  successors,  will,  immediately  upon  notice  and 
demand  in  writing,  served  upon  its  President,  at  any  time  within 
thirty  days  after  the  maturity  of  said  installment  of  interest,  and 
the  failure  to  pay  the  same  as  aforesaid,  surrender  and  restore  said 
lands  to  the  possession  of  the  party  of  the  first  part,  in  as  good  con- 
dition with  regard  to  the  tillable  lands  and  improvements  thereon 
as  the  same  was  in  when  received  by  the  party  of  the  second  part, 
and  the  party  of  the  first  part  shall,  in  that  event,  be  required 


—  113  — 

to  refund  to  the  party  of  the  second  part,  or  their  successors,  any 
part  of  the  purchase  money  thereof  received  by  the  said  party  of 
the  first  part,  under  the  provisions  of  this  agreement. 

E.  URQUHART, 
T.   C.   MONROE, 
President  of  the  Board  of  Penitentiary  Commissioners. 

JNO.  W.  CROCKETT, 

Secretary  of  the  Board  of  Penitentiary  Commissioners. 
T.  C.  MONROE,  Auditor  of  the  State. 
JNO.  W.  CROCKETT,  Secretary  of  State. 
G.  W.  MURPHY,  Attorney  General. 

H.  T.  BRADFORD,  Commissioner  of  Mines,  Manufactures  and  Agri- 
culture. 

Constituting  the  Board  of  Penitentiary  Commissioners. 

County  of  Pulaski.  ) 

STATE  OF  ARKANSAS,     j   S 

Be  it  remembered,  that  on  this  day,  the  21st  day  of  November, 
1902,  came  before  me,  the  undersigned,  a  Notary  Public,  within  and 
for  the  County  aforesaid,  duly  commissioned  and  acting,  E.  Urquhart, 
lo  me  well  known  as  the  person  whose  signature  appears  on  the 
foregoing  instrument,  and  acknowledged  that  he  had  executed  the 
same  for  the  consideration  and  purposes  therein  mentioned  and  set 
forth,  and  I  do  hereby  so  certify. 

Witness  my  hand  and  seal  as  such  Notary  Public  on  the  day  and 
year  above  written. 

(Seal.)  F.  J.  SCHMUTZ, 

My  Commission   Expires  Notary  Public. 

December  24,  1904. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    fleans   Committee 


ON 


Thursday,  February  26, 
1903 


INDEX. 

JOHN  W.  CROCKETT. 
H.  T.  BRADFORD. 
T.  C.  MONROE. 


—  117  — 
Thursday,  February  25,  1903. 

JOHN  W.  CROCKETT,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  the  Chairman)  You  are  the  Secretary  of  State  of  the 
State  of  Arkansas? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  am. 

Q.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  by  virtue 
of  your  office? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  occupy  the  position  on  that  board  as  Secretary,  do 
you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Crockett,  in  your  own  language,  state  what  you 
know  about  the  purchase  of  the  Convict  Farm,  and  the  circum- 
stances surrounding  it? 

A.  Well,  on  the  19th  of  November,  in  company  with  Judge 
Bradford,  Captain  Monroe  and  Mr.  Hogins,  I  went  down  to  visit 
the  Cummins  and  Maple  Grove  farms.  We  arrived  down  there 
about — well,  I  suppose  sometime  in  the  afternoon,  I  don't  remem- 
ber just  about  the  hour,  and  we  drove  over  a  portion  of  the  farm 
that  afternoon;  and  the  next  morning  I  suppose  about  seven 
o'clock  we  got  horses  and  rode  over  the  farm,  and  came  back  to 
Little  Rock  that  night — getting  back  here  I  suppose  about  eight 
or  half  past  that  night— the  night  of  the  20th.  On  the  afternoon 
about  2  o'clock — the  afternoon  of  the  21st — the  board  met  in  the 
Auditor's  office,  and  the  question  came  up  about  the  purchase  of 
the  farm.  I  think  I  suggested  perhaps  to  the  Auditor,  who  was 
Chairman  of  the  board,  to  appoint  a  committee  composed  of  Colonel 
Murphy  and  Judge  Bradford  to  see  Mr.  Miller,  the  agent  of  Mr. 
Urquhart,  and  try  and  ascertain  his  lowest  price  and  best  figures — 
terms  of  the  sale  of  his  place.  He  appointed  that  committee,  but 
Mr.  Miller  came  in  while  we  were  in  board  meeting  and  he  was 
interrogated  in  open  meeting  by  Colonel  Murphy  as  to  his  lowest 
figures  and  best  terms.  A  little  later  Judge  Moore  came  in  and 
presented  a  proposition  in  the  form  of  a  contract  to  the  board. 
He  handed  it  to  me  and  I  read  it  to  the  board.  Afterwards  Colonel 
Murphy  made  a  motion  that  we  purchase  this  farm,  and  the  four 
members  of  the  board  voting  for  the  purchase  of  the  farm,  Governor 
Davis  having  voted  against  it. 

Q.    All  voted  for  it  except  the  Governor? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     After  the  Penitentiary  Board  adjourned  I  took 


—  118  — 

the  minutes  to  my  office  and  had  my  deputy — I  dictated  the  minutes 
to  him  and  had  him  to  write  them  up;  and  a  little  later  Mr.  Moore 
came  in  my  office  in  company  with,  I  think,  Colonel  Murphy,  and 
Colonel  Murphy,  Judge  Bradford  and  myself  signed  the  contract. 
After  we  had  signed  it  Judge  Moore  then  took  the  contract  to 
Governor  Davis — to  his  office,  and  came  back  and  said  that  the 
Governor  declined  to  sign  it.  Colonel  Monroe  was  not  present  at 
that  time,  having  gone  home,  I  think  he  was  feeling  sick  and  had 
gone  home  after  the  adjournment  of  the  Board;  and  that  night 
after  1  went  home,  or  that  afternoon,  Colonel  Moore  came  to  my 
boarding  house  and  stated  that  he  had  understood  that  Governor 
Davis  was  going  to  take  some  action  against  the  purchase  of  the 
farm  in  some  way,  and  he  would  like  for  me  to  come  down,  as 
Colonel  Monroe  had  agreed  to  com'e  down  and  sign  the  contract 
that  night  after  supper,  and  the  contract  being  in  my  office,  I  told 
him  I  would  do  so.  I  did  go  down  and  Colonel  Monroe  came  into 
my  office  and  signed  the  contract  in  my  office  that  night  after 
supper.  That  is  about  all  I  know  about  it. 

Q.     That  is  a  history  of  the  transaction  so  far  as  you  know? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  will  state  this,  that  before  the  board  meeting 
at  which  it  voted  on  the  purchase  of  the  farm,  I  did  not  know  and 
did  not  have  any  idea  as  to  how  any  member  of  the  board  would 
vote  on  the  purchase  of  the  farm.  I  was  sure  none  of  them  knew 
how  I  was  going  to  vote.  I  had  had  no  agreement  with  any  mem- 
ber about  how  we  was  to  vote  on  this  purchase. 

Q.  It  has  been  charged  Mr.  Crockett  that  there  was  collusion 
between  the  four  members  of  the  board  and  the  owners  of  the 
property  and  his  attorneys,  what  have  you  to  say  to  that? 

A.  I  can  say  positively  and  most  emphatically  that  there  was 
no  collusion  so  far  as  I  know,  and  to  my  knowledge  I  had  never 
heard  that  any  member  of  the  moard  had,  or  how  he  was  going  to 
vote,  and  I  know  that  no  one  knew  how  I  was  going  to  vote  until 
the  motion  was  made  and  the  roll  called  and  each  member  voted  on 
the  proposition. 

Q.     Do  you  know  anything  about  the  payment  of  the  $30,000? 

A.  Why,  no,  sir;  I  do  not.  I  think  that  the  payment  was  made 
that  night;  I  think  the  payment  was  made  that  afternoon  or  night. 
I  don't  know  as  to  when  it  was  it  was  made.  I  did  not  see  it  made. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  go  down  with  the  members  of  the  board  to 
see  this  Cummins  place? 


—  119  — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  before  the  contract  was  signed  up? 

A.  That  was — we  went  down  on  the  19th,  came  back  on  the 
afternoon  or  night  of  the  20th,  and  the  contract — we  voted  to  pur- 
chase the  farm  on  the  21st. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Mr.  Crockett,  how  many  acres  of  land 
is  there  in  that  place? 

A.  The  abstract,  Mr.  Crutcher,  says  a  little  over  8,000  acres. 
That  is,  I  mean  deeded  land.  There  is  something — said  to  be  some- 
thing like  two  or  three  thousand  acres  of  accretions. 

Q.     How  does  this  land  lie,  as  to  the  river? 

A.     Well,  there  is  a  bluff  in  front  of  the  place. 

Q.     A  bluff,  you  say? 

A.  You  might  term  it  a  bluff,  or  rather  high  river  bank  along 
there  in  front  of  the  place. 

Q.  Well,  how  does  the  strip  of  land  lie  up  and  down  the  river 
— does  it  run  up  or  down  the  river? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  makes  a  bend,  I  suppose,  Mr.  Crutcher,  and 
runs  up  and  down  the  river  about  six  miles. 

Q.     Is  it  wider  in  places  than  at  others? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  rather  think  not,  probably  some  two  to  three 
miles  wide. 

Q.     How  far  is  that  place  from  the  station  called  Varner? 

A.     I  think  they  call  it  five  miles — five  or  six  miles. 

Q.    What  is  the  character  of  the  route  from  Varner? 

A.  Right  bad  I  should  judge  in  winter.  It  was  pretty  bad 
when  we  were  down  there. 

Q.     Any  creeks  and  swamps  that  you  have  to  cross? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  probably  one  or  two  swamps  between 
there  and  Varner. 

Q.    In  the  form  of  bayous  or  swamps? 

A.  Two  of  them  slashes,  I  think.  There  is  an  old  cypress 
brake  on  the  place,  I  suppose  probably  containing  something  like 
four  or  five  hundred  acres  in  it,  but  the  cypress  has  been  cut  off. 
They  had  a  sawmill  down  there  at  one  time  and  cut  the  cypress 
all  off. 

Q.     You  say  there  is  four  or  five  hundred  acres  in  that  slash? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Is  there  any  way  in  your  opinion  by  which  that  might  be 
drained? 

A.  I  think  so;  yes,  sir;  I  think  it  could  be  drained  into  the 
river. 


—  120  — 

Q.  How  much  cleared  land  was  there  down  there,  Mr. 
Crockett? 

A.  Between  twenty-four  and  twenty-five  hundred  acres,  I  am 
satisfied. 

Q.     Is  that  entirely  covered  with  Johnson  grass? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  should  judge,  Mr.  Crutcher,  that  possibly  two  or 
three  hundred  acres  is  probably  sodded  in  Johnson  grass. 

Q.     That  is  sodded? 

A.     Possibly,  yes,  sir. 

Q.     Is  that  Johnson  grass  scattered  all  over  it? 

A.  Johnson  grass  in  places,  yes,  sir.  It  is  not  covered  with 
Johnson  grass,  that  is,  Mr.  Crutcher,  all  over  it.  There  is  a  large 
portion  of  it  has  Johnson  grass  on  it,  I  suppose  something  like  four 
or  five  hundred  acres  that  had  been  put  in  a  crop,  but  I  presume 
on  account  of  the  scarcity  of  labor  it  had  been  thrown  out,  or 
rather  abandoned.  The  grass  has  taken  the  crop. 

Q.     Now,  Mr.  Crockett,  do  you  know  anything  about  farming? 

A.  I  have  never  farmed  any,  Mr.  Crutcher;  but  I  have  lived 
in  the  country  nearly  all  my  life. 

Q.     What  is  the  character  of  that  land? 

A.     It  is  a  kind  of  a  black  waxy  land. 

Q.  The  entire  part,  you  say,  that  is  cultivated  now,  you  say 
that  is  black  waxy  land? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   largely  so,  yes  sir. 

Q.     Is  there  any  sandy  land  on  the  place? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   there  is  a  sandy  loam  mixed  with  it. 

Q.  Now,  what  do  you  say  about  the  productiveness  of  that 
soil? 

A.  Mr.  Crutcher,  I  have  lived  in  eastern  Arkansas  and  in  a 
farming  country  all  my  life,  and  I  never  saw  a  better  crop  grown 
anywhere  than  I  saw  on  that  land;  the  vegetation  was  rank  and 
heavy,  and  I  can  be  frank  when  I  say  that  it  is  one  of  the  best 
places  that  I  ever  saw,  and  know  if  it  had  not  been  I  would  not 
have  wanted  to  purchase  it. 

Q.     It  was  in  cotton  when  you  were  on  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  a  part  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  cotton  when  you  see  it,  as  to 
approximating  the  amount  it  will  produce? 

A.  I  think  that  land  will  average  a  bale  of  cotton  to  the  acre, 
Mr.  Crutcher,  easily,  if  properly  worked. 

Q.  How  much  of  that  land  was  in.  I  mean  how  much  was 
planted  or  had  a  crop  on  it  at  the  time  you  went  down  there? 


-121  — 

A.  Well,  I  can't  say  exactly,  Mr.  Crutcher,  that  would  be  hard 
to  estimate— hard  to  estimate — I  don't  know. 

Q.    Did  you  see  any  corn  there  at  the  time  you  were  there? 

A.  Not  much  corn;  no,  sir;  I  saw  some  places  where  it  had 
been  planted  in  corn,  but  it  had  been  abandoned. 

Q.     They  didn't  raise  much  corn? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  they  didn't  say  anything  about  why  it  had  been 
abandoned.  I  think  it  was  on  account  of  the  scarcity  of  labor 
though,  Mr.  Crutcher. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Funk)  Mr.  Crockett,  I  would  like  to  ask  you  in 
regard  to  the  sale  of  this  cotton  that  was  sold. 

A.  I  understood,  Mr.  Funk,  that  it  was  sold  some  four  or  five 
days  before  the  purchase  of  this  farm.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  price  of  cotton  at  that 
time? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not,  Mr.  Funk.  My  recollection  now  is  that 
Mr.  Cook  came  to  me  some  several  days  before — I  can't  say  as  to 
what  day,  because  I  did  not  tax  my  mind  with  the  time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  condition  of  the  market 
when  it  was  sold? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  said  something  to  me  about  selling  the  cotton, 
and  I  said  to  him,  Mr.  Cook,  you  examine  the  market  and  do  the 
very  best  you  can.  I  don't  keep  up  with  the  market  reports  and 
the  price  of  cotton,  so  you  do  the  very  best  you  can.  That  is  about 
what  I  said  to  him  when  speaking  to  him  about  it.  That  cotton, 
I  think,  brought  about — I  think  it  was  seven  and  five-sixteenths. 
That  is  what  I  understood. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Futrell)  Mr.  Crockett,  how  many  hours  did  you 
spend  in  actual  investigation  of  that  place? 

A.  I  suppose  probably  something  like  eight  or  ten  hours.  I 
should  judge,  Mr.  Futrell,  altogether.  We  went  there  in  the  after- 
noon the  day  before,  we  went  over  it,  part  of  it,  and  then  we  went 
over  it,  rode  horseback — started  about  7  o'clock  and  rode  over  it 
until  about  12,  and  then  in  driving  back  to  the  station  we  drove 
over  a  portion  of  it  again. 

Q.  There  has  been  a  good  deal  said  about  the  time  when  this 
contract  was  signed.  What  time  did  Colonel  Monroe  sign  that 
contract? 

A.  I  should  think  about  7  o'clock.  It  was  after  supper.  I  came 
down  just  as  soon  as  I  got  my  supper — down  to  my  office.  That 
afternoon  Judge  Bradford,  Colonel  Murphy  and  myself  signed  the 
contract— that  was  during  office  hours;  Governor, Davis  had  not  left 


-  123    - 

his  office  before  we  signed  it,  for  Judge  Moore  brought  the  con- 
tract back  to  me  and  says,  Mr.  Crockett,  I  will  leave  this  and  let 
it  stay  here  until  tomorrow  morning,  when  Captain  Monroe  can 
come  in  and  sign  it  then.  That  night,  before  supper  I  think,  Mr. 
Moore  came  to  my  house  and  said  that  he  understood  that  Governor 
Davis  was  going  to  try  and  give  us  some  trouble — enjoin  the  pay- 
ment of  the  money  or  stop  the  sale,  and  asked  me  would  I  come 
down  to  the  office,  that  Captain  Monroe  had  agreed  to  come  down 
and  sign  that  contract,  and  so  I  went  down  and  got  it  out  of  the 
safe. 

Q.     That  was  just  simply  to  avoid  any  trouble  about  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  said  that  Governor  Davis  was  going  to  try  to 
enjoin  the  payment  of  the  money,  but  he  said  he  didn't  think  the 
Governor  could  prevent  it,  but  he  didn't  want  any  trouble  about  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Crockett,  as  the  secretary  of  the  board,  was  any  order 
ever  made  for  the  sale  of  that  cotton,  and  you  would  know? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Has  the  sale  of  thta  cotton  been  confirmed  by  the  board? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     This  is  left  largely  with  the  Financial  Agent,  is  it  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   he  makes  his  reports  every  month  to  the  board. 

Q.  There  is  an  order  of  the  board  for  this  money  to  be  paid 
over  for  a  payment  on  this  place? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  order  was  made  in  the  board  meeting  that 
afternoon.  Colonel  Murphy  1  think  read  the  order  last  night. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Was  that  money  to  be  paid  upon  the 
execution  of  that  contract  by  Mr.  Urquhart? 

A.  That  is  what  the  resolution  says,  Mr.  Crutcher.  If  you 
desire  I  will  read  the  order;  I  have  the  record  here.  Colonel  Mur- 
phy's testimony  was  essentially  about  what  mine  would  be,  only  he 
told  it  in  a  better  language  than  I  can  do,  as  he  is  more  accus- 
tomed to  talking  than  I. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Did  you  see  the  contract  that  you  entered 
into  with  Mr.  Urquhart  before  it  was  presented  in  your  board 
meeting  that  afternoon? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  saw  it  until  that  time  when  Mr.  Moore 
handed  it  to  me. 

Q.  Had  you  signed  the  .contract,  Mr.  Crockett,  before  the 
adjournment  of  your  board  meeting  or  afterwards? 

A.     Afterwards. 

Q.  Was  there  any  understanding  arrived  at  as  to  when  you 
should  sign  the  contract  during  that  board  meeting? 


—  123  — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  you  adjourned  at  that  board  meeting  to 
meet  at  any  other  certain  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  to  meet  the  next  day  at  10  o'clock. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  suggestion,  or  was  it  suggested  in  your 
hearing  that  you  would  pass  the  matter  over  until  the  next  day — 
about  executing  the  contract? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  never  heard  Colonel  Moore  suggest  that? 

A.  Well,  Colonel  Moore  suggested  that  afternoon  in  my  office 
that  the  matter  might  go  over  until  the  next  day,  as  Colonel  Monroe 
was  not  there. 

Q.     That  was  after  the  adjournment  for  that  day? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Now  what  day  of  the  month  was  that  board  meeting? 

A.     On  the  21st  day  of  November,  1902. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  time  during  that  afternoon  that 
you  and  Colonel  Murphy,  and  I  believe  you  said  Judge  Bradford, 
signed  that  contract? 

A.  Why  I  should  think  somewhere  about  4  o'clock,  or  proba- 
bly a  little  after  4  o'clock,  somewhere  along  there.  I  know  I  had 
not  left  the  office  yet. 

Q.  Did  your  board  decide  upon  instructing  the  Financial 
Agent  to  pay  that  money  over  that  night? 

A.  The  order  purchasing  the  farm  directed  the  Financial 
Agent  to  pay  the  cash  down  upon  the  execution  of  the  contract  by 
Mr.  Urquhart.  The  resolution  stated  that  Mr.  Urquhart  would  be 
called  on  to  execute  the  contract,  I  believe,  at  once. 

Q.     Was  the  Financial  Agent  present  at  your  board  meeting? 

A.  No,  sir;  1  don't  think  he  was.  I  don't  know  whether  he 
was  there  at  that  time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  informed  him  of  your  instructions  about 
paying  over  that  money? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not.  I  will  state  this,  Mr.  Whitley,  that  he 
was  up  in  my  office  that  night  when  Captain  Monroe  came  to  my 
office-— that  night  when  Captain  Monroe  and  Judge  Moore  and  per- 
haps Mr.  Miller  was  present  there. 

Q.  Was  there  any  understanding  between  you  about  when  you 
should  sign  this  contract  until  Mr.  Miller  had  been  advised  about 
this  prospective  injunction  of  the  Governor's? 

A.  No,  sir;  there  was  no  understanding,  as  I  stated  awhile  ago. 
After  the  board  adjourned  I  took  the  records  and  went  to  my  office 


—  124  — 

and  these  gentlemen,  Colonel  Murphy,  Judge  Bradford  and  I  believe 
Colonel  Urquhart  and  Colonel  Moore — I  believe  Colonel  Murphy, 
Colonel  Moore  and  Judge  Bradford  and  Colonel  Urquhart  were 
there,  and  Judge  Bradford  came  in  and  we  three  signed  the  con- 
tract there.  There  was  no  understanding  as  to  when  we  would 
sign  it. 

Q.  Did  this  suggestion  of  Governor  Davis  to  Mr.  Miller  or  his 
attorney  bring  about  the  signing  of  that  contract  that  evening — 
that  the  sale  would  be  enjoined? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not  know  anything  about  any  suggestion  of 
that  kind. 

Q.  There  was  no  effort  made  to  get  this  contract  signed  up 
until  Mr.  Miller— 

A.  Mr.  Whitley,  I  will  state  this,  that  I  had  heard  nothing 
about  any  threats  of  Governor  Davis  about  enjoining  the  purchase 
of  this  farm  at  the  time  that  Colonel  Murphy  and  Judge  Bradford 
and  I  signed  the  contract.  Later  on,  as  I  said  awhile  ago,  Mr. 
Moore  came  to  by  boarding  house  and  I  understood  from  him  that 
the  Governor  was  going  to  try  and  stop  the  sale,  and  he  wanted  to 
know  if  I  would  go  down  and  get  the  contract,  that  Colonel  Monroe 
had  promised  to  come  down  and  sign  it,  and  I  told  him  I  would  do 
so.  That  was  the  first  I  heard  of  any  threats  of  Governor  Davis 
to  enjoin  the  sale.  The  Governor  made  quite  a  number  of  threats 
during  the  meeting. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  understanding  as  to  what  you  were 
adjourning  over  to  the  next  day  for? 

A.  Adjourned  to  the  next  day  to  arrange  to  take  possession  of 
the  place  and  direct  the  Superintendent  to  take  charge  of  it  and 
so  on. 

Q.  You  don't  know  then  who  instructed  the  Financial  Agent 
or  advised  him  that  the  deal  had  been  consummated,  and  to  pay 
the  money  over? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.     You  say  that  that  was  done  after  night? 

A.  I  do  not  know  when  that  payment  was  made,  Mr.  Whitley, 
I  did  not  sec  that  done. 

Q.  Then  there  was  none  of  the  members  of  the  board  signed 
that  contract  except  Mr.  Monroe — signed  it  after  night? 

A.  All  signed  it  except  Colonel  Monroe,  and  he  signed  it  before 
dark  that  night,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  I  believe  you  stated  that  you  had  not  seen  the  contract 
and  did  not  know  anything  about  it  until  it  was  presented  in  your 
board  meeting? 


—  125  — 

A.  No,  sir.  The  only  thing  I  had  seen  from  Mr.  Miller,  I 
think  it  was  from  Mr.  Miller,  about  selling  that  farm,  was  the  pro- 
posal that  he  had  sent  in — just  simply  a  proposal — and  filed  it  with 
me  as  secretary  of  the  board,  prior  to  the  19th  of  September.  I 
don't  remember  the  date;  I  did  not  put  the  filing  on  the  paper.  Mr. 
Miller  came  into  my  office  with  his  proposition  and  handed  it  to  me, 
and  this  proposal  was  read  to  the  board  on  September  19,  1902 — 
this  proposal  from  Mr.  Miller  to  sell  this  place  to  the  board  at  the 
price  of  $140,000 — that  was  just  his  proposal. 

Q.  Now  in  reference  to  the  sale  of  that  cotton,  I  want  to  ask 
you  one  question  about  that.  I  believe  it  was  stated  that  by  that 
cotton  being  sold  at  the  time  that  it  was,  when  the  price  was  down, 
but  soon  afterwards  went  up  to  such  an  extent  that  there  was  a 
loss  of  about  $1,500  in  that  transaction,  as  stated  by  Governor  Davis 
in  his  message,  I  believe;  do  you  know  anything  about  the  rise  in 
price  of  cotton  after  the  sale,  or  at  what  price  was  it  sold  when  it 
was  sold? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  whether  the  State  saved  or  lost  by 
the  sale  of  that  cotton  at  that  time? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Now,  as  to  that  meeting  that  was  to  be 
had  the  next  day  at  10  o'clock,  did  the  board  hold  that  meeting? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    What  did  you  do  at  that  meeting? 

A.  I  think  the  minutes  will  show,  if  you  would  like  to  have 
them  read. 

Q.     I  don't  care  to  have  them  read — 

A.  The  meeting  the  next  day  was  for  the  purpose  of  instruct- 
ing the  Superintendent  to  take  charge  of  the  farm. 

Q.     When  did  he  take  charge  of  the  farm? 

A.  I  don't  know  when  he  took  charge,  I  can't  state  that.  Mr. 
Hogins  is  here  and  can  testify  as  to  that  himself. 

Q.  Wasn't  there  a  crop  on  that  place  at  that  time  belonging  to 
Colonel  Urquhart? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  in  a  few  days  though  the  Superintendent 
sent  about  fifty  convicts  down  there — a  few  days  later,  I  don't 
remember  what  date,  possibly  the  next  week.  He  sent  about  fifty  . 
convicts  down  there  though.  At  the  next  meeting  the  Governor 
threatened  to  pardon  all  the  convicts  that  were  sent  down  there,  but 
we  kept  sending  them. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)    Mr.   Crockett,  have  you  any  reason-  to 


—  126  — 

offer  why  that  contract  was  not  signed  during  the  board  meeting, 
when  it  was  accepted  by  the  members  of  the  board? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  can  say,  Mr.  Whitley,  that  I  would  have  signed 
it  right  there  just  as  soon  as  I  did  in  my  office  if  I  had  been  called 
on  to,  and  if  I  was  called  on  to  I  would  sign  it  again. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  Do  you  consider  that  you  have  been 
accused  of  collusion  in  the  purchase  of  that  farm,  or  that  you  have 
been  accused  of  having  some  private  understanding  with  the  owners 
for  the  purchase  of  that  farm? 

A.     I  would  judge  so  from  the  Governor's  message. 

Q.  Then  you  consider  that  your  methods  have  been  impugned 
and  your  integrity  has  been  attacked? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  do. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Mr.  Crockett,  it  was  suggested  in  the 
Governor's  message  that  there  was  a  scheme  on  the  part  of  a  ma- 
jority of  the  board,  some  twelve  months  ago  to  purchase  the  Beak- 
ley  farm;  now  go  on  and  state  if  there  was  a  scheme  to  purchase 
that  farm,  or  if  there  was  anything  in  that? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  any  scheme  of  that  kind, 
Judge.  No;  and  no.  I  can't  tell  you  about  it;  if  there  was  any 
scheme  I  was  not  in  the  scheme. 

Q.     Then  there  was  no  scheme  that  you  know  of? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  also  suggested  that  when  the  purchase  of  the  Beakley 
farm  was  disposed  of  that  the  matter  rested  for  many  months, 
now  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  Governor  himself  offered  a  resolution 
about  a  month  after  that  time  to  accept  the  other  farm — the 
Altheimer  proposition? 

A.  Well,  about  that  time,  Judge,  there  was  a  resolution  offered 
by  some  one  to  narrow  the  purchase  down  between  the  Beakley 
farm  and  the  Altheimer  farm. 

Q.     Does  your  record  show  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so.  I  say  that  there  was  a  resolution  of 
that  kind  offered  to  narrow  the  matter  down  between  these  two 
farms,  the  Beakley  and  the  Altheimer  farms;  there  was  a  resolution 
of  that  kind. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Were  you  about  to  purchase  the  Beakley 
farm,  Mr.  Crockett? 

A.  I  don't  know,  Mr.  Whitley.  I  was  not,  because  I  was  never 
in  favor  of  purchasing  the  Beakley  farm.  The  matter  had  narrowed 
down  between  the  two  farms;  Governor  Davis  wanted  to  purchase 
the  Altheimer  farm. 


—  127  — 

Q.  (Br.  Mr.  F.  L.  McCain)  Mr.  Crockett,  is  it  not  a  fact  that 
the  Cummins  place  has  a  river  front  and  a  railroad  bank  of  some 
four  or  five  miles  to  the  railroad,  and  that  you  have  shipping  facil- 
ities from  it  both  by  water  and  by  rail? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  is  an  old  railroad  dump,  Mr.  McCain,  from 
the  Cummins — used  to  be  a  railroad  running  up  from  the  farm,  but 
the  rails  have  been  taken  up,  but  there  is  &,  dump  there  yet,  but 
the  rails  have  been  removed. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  the  convicts  that  went  down  to  the  Cum- 
mins place  did  not  go  by  bpat  from  Little  Rock  down  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  much  cheaper  than  it  would  be  by  rail,  ordi- 
narily, is  it  not? 

A.      I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Is  the  road  from  the  railroad  out  to  the  Cummins  place  any 
worse  than  the  ordinary  country  road? 

A.     I  think  not;   no,  sir. 

Q.  A  question  was  asked  you  as  to  that  land  growing  corn, 
is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  all  the  bottom  land — especially  this  Arkansas 
River  bottom  land — ordinarily  that  corn  is  not  raised  on  it,  but  that 
it  is  devoted  or  the  time  is  devoted  to  raising  cotton  more  or  less? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  That  land  is  just  as  good  and  just  as  productive  as 
anywhere. 

Q.  That  land  is  just  as  good  as  any  land  in  the  Arkansas  River 
or  the  Mississippi  River  bottom  land,  is  it  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  is  a  fact,  is  it  not? 

A:    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  that  particular  locality  and 
all  down  in  that  section  of  the  country  that  this  land  sells  anywhere 
from  $20  to  $50  an  acre,  or  have  you  any  information  as  to  that? 

A.  I  can't  state  about  that.  I  know  they  are  selling  land  on 
the  prairie  at  $25  an  acre,  and  I  wouldn't  give  one  acre  of  this  land 
for  five  of  that  on  the  prairie  as  for  productiveness. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  this  question,  if  you  are  familiar  with  it — 
is  it  not  a  fact  that  where  a  cypress  brake  is  drained  and  put  in  cul- 
tivation that  it  is  the  most  productive  cotton  land? 

A.     I  have  heard  that,  but  I  don't  know. 

Q.     That  is  a  matter  of  general  information? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

-Q.  When  the  crops  are  laid  by  in  the  summer  time  and  the  con- 
victs have  nothing  to  do,  it  would  be  a  comparatively  easy  matter 


—  128  — 

to  fence  and  tile  drain  it  out  into  the  Arkansas  River  wouldn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  that  has  been  done  your  information  is  that  that 
will  make  the  richest  land  on  that  place? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  my  information. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Crockett,  did  or  did  not  Governor 
Davis  offer  a  resolution  to  purchase  the  Altheimer  farm? 

A.     I  don't  remember,  Colonel. 

Q.     Can  you  refer  to  the  record  and  see? 

A.     Possibly  so.     (Refers  to  record.)     Yes,  sir;  I  can;  here  it  is. 

Q.     What  month  was  it  made? 

A.     Made  October  11,  1901. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  at  what  price  the  Altheimer  place  was 
offered? 

A.     My  recollection  is  that  it  was  something  like  $90,000. 

Q.  And  that  farm  was  situated  between  England  and 
Altheimer,  was  it  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  how  far  it  was  from  any  stream  into  whir'^ 
it  could  be  drained? 

A.  There  was  a  bayou,  Colonel,  running  back  of  the  house,  but 
it  was  a  flat  bayou  and  was  dry.  I  don't  know  how  far  it  was  to 
the  river. 

Q.    Do  you  remember  how  we  voted  on  that  proposition? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  I  do;  for  the  proposition,  Governor  Davis; 
negative,  Monroe,  Hill  and  Murphy. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  anybody  ever  made  a  motion  or  a 
proposition  to  purchase  the  Beakley  farm? 

A.     I  don't  think  there  was  ever  any  motion  made  to  buy  it. 

Q.     None  at  all? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  do  remember  that  about  a  month  or  two  afterwards 
that  there  was  a  resolution  restricting  consideration  of  purchasing 
at  all  to  the  Beakley  and  Altheimer  farms? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  something  of  that  kind. 

Q.    Do  you  recall  who  introduced  that  resolution? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not.     I  cannot  say  positively  now. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  whether  it  was  Governor  Davis  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  remember,  though,  that  a  lot  of  witnesses  were 
brought  up  here,  about  thirty-one  or  thirty-two,  after  this  resolution 
to  purchase  the  Altheimer  farm  was  made,  that  there  was  a  lot  of 


—  129   - 

witnesses  brought  up  in  order  to  prove  that  the  Beakley  farm  was 
wet  and  low? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Governor  Eagle  was  before  the  board  and  tes- 
tified. There  were  quite  a  number  of  witnesses  here. 

Q.     Do  you  recall  at  whose  instance? 

A.     At  Governor  Davis'  instance. 

Q.     Do  you  recollect  that  he  examined  them? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  I  stated  that  that  farm  was  wet 
and  low,  and  that  I  would  never  consent  to  buy  it? 

A.     You  said  something  such  as  that,  Colonel. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  I  said  I  wouldn't  want  to  buy  it 
if  it  was  wet  land? 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  you  stated  that  if  it  was  that  char- 
acter of  land  that  you  didn't  want  to  buy  it. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  following  the  refusal  to  purchase 
the  Altheimer  place  that  Governor  Davis  took  us  to  task — those 
who  voted  against  it  and  lambasted  us  freely  about  it? 

A.  I  think  that  was  about  the  time  that  interview  appeared 
in  the  "Globe-Democrat,"  wasn't  it?  We  had  quite  a  controversy 
about  the  "Globe-Democrat"  matter. 

Q.  Yes,  we  had  quite  a  controversy  about  that,  but  didn't  he 
lanibast  us  then? 

A.  I  can't  say  positively,  but  it  is  my  idea  that  you  did  the 
lambasting  at  that  time,  Colonel. 

Q.  Well,  now,  let  me  see  if  I  can't  refresh  your  memory;  do 
you  remember  that  he  said  the  administration  was  his,  and  that 
he  thought  the  board  had  no  respect  for  him,  or  the  majority  of 
the  board,  or  his  views — anything  of  that  sort — in  connection  with 
the  rejection  of  that  resolution  of  his  to  make  that  purchase? 

A.  Colonel,  the  Governor  said  so  many  things  along  that  line 
that  I  can't  remember  all.  I  can't  swear  positively  about  that.  I 
would  be  pleased  to  answer  the  question,  but  I  can't  say  positively. 

Q.  Before  and  after  you  voted  on  the  purchase  of  that  Al- 
theimer farm  you  passed  over  it  several  times,  did  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  always  went  that  way  going  down  to  my  old 
home. 

Q.  Did  you  yourself  after  seeing  the  crops  grown  on  it  and 
the  absence  of  its  productiveness  ever  change,  or  did  it  not  change 
your  mind? 

A.  I  changed  my  mind  about  it;  yes,  sir.  Mr.  Altheimer  came 
into  my  office  sometime  about  the  time  that  we  were  considering 

Testimony— 5 


—  130  — 

it  and  spoke  to  me — sometime  in  September  probably,  about  the 
time  we  were  considering  this  latter  proposition  of  lands  below, 
and  I  stated  to  him  very  frankly  that  I  could  not  vote  to  purchase 
that  farm;  that  I  had  passed  through  it,  and  the  railroad  runs  right 
through  it,  and  I  had  been  over  it  examining  it,  and  I  had  not  seen 
any  crops  growing  on  it.  I  told  him  very  frankly  that  I  could  not 
vote  for  purchasing  his  farm;  that  was  the  time  when  Mr. 
Altheimer  spoke  to  me  about  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Crockett,  this  property  that  we  did  purchase,  and 
the  others  that  you  looked  over,  I  want  to  ask  you  the  question, 
which  of  them  had  the  advantage  in  point  of  productiveness,  loca- 
tion and  suitableness  for  a  convict  farm  in  your  estimation? 

A.  Why,  Colonel,  I  evidently  thought  that  the  Cummins  place 
and  the  Maple  Grove  place  had  the  advantage  or  I  would  not  have 
voted  for  purchasing  them. 

Q.     And  that  takes  into  consideration  the  price — 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  We  went  to  look  at  the  Red  Leaf  plantation  on  the  Missis- 
sippi River,  did  we  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    we  did. 

Q.  And  after  the  investigation  that  you  had  made,  exercising 
your  best  judgment,  you  thought  that  that  was  a  preferable  farm, 
both  in  regard  to  productiveness,  location  and  price? 

A.     Certainly  did;   yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  best  for  the  State? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  Now  you  have  been  asked  about  your  personal  investiga- 
tion of  that  farm,  now  I  want  to  ask  you  if  in  addition  to  your 
personal  knowledge  you  made  it  a  point  or  any  efforts  to  discover 
its  value,  and  its  suitableness  for  this  farm? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     In  what  way? 

A.  I  went  over  it  personally,  and  I  think  possibly  we  had  got 
back  to  Varner  and  I  met  Captain  Bob  Rice,  and  knowing  that  he 
was  one  of  the  men  suggested  by  the  Governor  as  one  of  a  com 
mittee  to  examine  places  with  a  view  of  purchasing  a  farm,  I  made 
inquiries  of  Captain  Rice,  as  to  the  suitableness  and  value  of  that 
farm  as  a  convict  farm,  and  he  told  me  that  he  was  born  and 
raised  in  possibly  five  miles  of  the  place,  and  I  understood  he  said 
that  he  had  hunted  over  every  foot  of  it  when  a  boy,  and  that  he 
thought  it  was  one  of  the  best  farms  in  the  country  for  sale;  and  I 
think  Judge  Bradford  asked  the  question,  did  he  think  that  an 


—  131  — 

average  price  for  that  place  of  $14  or  $15  an  acre  was  too  much 
for  it,  and  he  said  that  he  thought  it  was  a  reasonable  price  for  it. 

Q.  (By  F.  L.  McCain)  I  will  ask  you  this,  Mr.  Crockett,  in 
order  that  it  may  be  made  plain  to  the  committee;  that  when  we 
talk  about  the  Cummins  place,  as  a  matter  of  fact  the  convict  farm 
that  was  purchased  is  composed  of  several  places? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   the  Cummins  place  and  the  Maple  Grove  place. 

Q.     That  is  the  old  Goree  place? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  And  it  is  a  much  larger  tract  of  land  than  is  known  in  that 
part  of  the  country  as  the  Cummins  place? 

A.     Yes,  there  are  two  places. 

Q.  The  Goree  place  is  as  large  most  as  the  Cummins  place, 
is  it  not? 

A.  I  don't  'know.  It  is  large.  But  I  know  it  is  not  as  large 
as  the  Cummins  place.  My  recollection  is  that  there  is  something 
like  seven  or  eight  hundred  acres  in  the  Goree  place. 

Q.  The  abstract  can  be  furnished  to  the  committee  showing 
ixactly? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  think  Colonel  Murphy  has  the  abstract. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Rowland)  Do  these  two  places  join,  Mr.  Crockett? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  that 
stream  is  navigable  during  the  cotton  season  or  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  river  is  nearly  always  navigable  in  the  fall. 
I  think  there  is  a  packet  from  Memphis  to  Pine  Bluff  all  the  time 
during  the  cotton  season.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Mr.  Crockett,  do  you  know  how  much 
of  that  place  has  been  washed  away  in  the  last  few  years? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  levee  being  washed  away 
and  the  land  caving  in  along  the  river? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  do  not. 

,     Q.     (My  Colonel  Murphy)  Did  you  see  any  evidence  of  a  levee 
there  being  washed  away? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  didn't  notice  any,  Colonel. 

Q.  Is  it  or  not  a  fact  that  ih"~"  is  a  regular  packet  from 
Memphis  to  Pine  Bluff  the  year  round? 

A.     That  is  my  understanding,  Colonel;  small  packet. 


—  132  — 

"Little  Rock,  Ark.,  March  28,  1903. 

"Hon.  E.  M.   Merriman,  Chairman,  and  Member  of  the  Ways  and 
Means  Committee: 

"On  my  return  from  Memphis,  having  been  informed  that  Mr. 
Altheimer  had  testified  before  your  committee  in  reference  to  the 
purchase  of  the  Altheimer  place,  that  he  had  filed  with  me  as 
Secretary  of  State  a  proposition  for  the  sale  of  that  place  for  the 
sum  of  $75,000. 

"Now  in  view  of  the  fact  that  I  was  absent  at  that  time  in 
Memphis,  and  unable  to  be  present  and  testify  before  the  commit- 
tee closed  the  taking  of  evidence,  I  now  respectfully  ask  your  per- 
mission to  file  the  following  statement,  which  I  make  under  oath: 

"I  state  positively  that  neither  Mr.  Altheimer  or  any  one  else 
ever  filed  with  me,  or  in  my  office  an  offer  to  sell  the  Altheimer 
place  for  less  than  $87,500.  I  further  state  that  I  never  heard, 
before  this  investigation,  lhat  he  had  ever  offered  to  sell  the  place 
to  the  board  for  less  than  $87,500.  On  the  contrary,  I  understood 
from  both  him  and  Governor  Davis  that  the  place  could  not  be 
purchased  for  less  than  the  price  of  $87,500.  That  this  was  the 
very  lowest  for  which  it  could  be  purchased.  I  further  state  that 
at  one  time  I  voted  with  Governor  Davis  to  purchase 
the  place  at  $87,500,  thinking  it  a  fair  proposition,  but, 
later,  having  passed  through  the  place  several  times 
on  the  railroad  and  having  observed  the  condition  of  the  crops, 
I  concluded  that  the  place  was  not  worth  the  price  asked  and  was 
not  suitable  for  a  convict  farm,  and  I  decided  positively  that  I 
would  under  no  circumstances  consent  to  the  purchase  of  the  place. 
I  will  further  state  that  I  am  perfectly  willing  to  appear  before 
the  committee  and  testify  in  regard  to'  this  matter  at  any  time 
they  may  desire  to  call  me. 

"J.  W.  CROCKETT." 

"Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  28th  day  of  March, 
1903. 

(Seal.)  "J.  C.  MASSEY,  Notary  Public. 

"My  Commission  expires  on  the  12th  day  of  April,  1905." 

Ordered  that  this  affidavit  be  made  part  of  Mr.  Crockett's  testi- 
mony. 

H.  T.  BRADFORD  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Please  state  what  if  any  official  posi- 
tion you  hold  in  the  state  government? 


—  133  — 

A.  I  am  Commissioner  of  Mines,  Manufactures  and  Agricul- 
ture. 

Q.     As  such  are  you  a  member  of  the  Penitentiary  Board. 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Judge  Bradford,  you  have  heard  the  direct  examina- 
tion of  some  of  the  other  State  officials,  I  wish  you.  would  go  ahead 
in  your  own  language  and  tell  what  you  know  about  the  purchase 
of  this  convict  farm? 

A.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  only  came  on  this  board  on  the  31st  of 
October,  1902,  and  prior  to,  that  time  of  course  I  did  not  know  any- 
thing about  the  business  that  had  been  transacted,  or  anything 
that  had  been  done  in  reference  to  purchasing  a  farm  or  any  other 
business.  But  when  I  came  on  the  board — became  a  member  of 
the  board,  I  found  that  they  were  contemplating  buying  a  convict 
farm,  and  that  there  were  several  propositions  to  sell  farms  to 
the  board,  for  the  State.  Coming  directly  to  the  facts  and  the  visit 
to  this  farm  on  the  18th  of  November,  I  think  it  was,  Mr.  Crockett, 
Captain  Monroe  and  myself  agreed  to  go  down  and  look  at 
what  is  known  as  the  Cummins  place.  Neither  one  of  us  had  ever 
seen  it.  We  went  down  to  Varner  on  the  19th  of  November  and 
went  from  Varner  over  to  the  Cummins  place.  We  went  through 
the  farm,  and  through  a  large  part  of  it,  in  making  the  trip  from 
Varner  over  to  the  place,  and  we  went  over  a  good  portion  of  it 
that  evening.  As  stated  by  Mr.  Crockett,  on  the  morning  of  the 
20th,  we  got  horses  and  we  rode  over  a  great  deal  of  the  farm.  We 
stayed  there  until  in  the  afternoon  and  came  back  to  Varner  in 
the  afternoon  and  came  back  to  Little  Rock  that  night.  We  had 
a  meeting  of  the  board  the  next  day  at  2  o'clock — I  presume  about 
that  time — that  is  the  time  prescribed  for  it,  and  I  presume  the 
meeting  was  held  at  2  o'clock.  Now  I  want  to  say  right  here,  for 
fear  I  may  forget  it,  Mr.  Crockett  and  myself  and  Colonel  Monroe 
came  back  on  the  night  of  the  20th.  I  came  to  my  office  the  next 
morning — I  did  not  see  Mr.  Crockett  during  the  day  until  I  met 
him  that  afternoon  in  the  board  meeting.  I  did  not  see  Colonel 
Monroe  during  that  day  until  we  met  in  the  board  meeting,  or  just 
before,  when  Colonel  Monroe  came  to  my  office  and  said  the  board 
will  meet  at  2  o'clock,  or  that  there  would  be  a  meeting  of  the 
Penitentiary  Board  at  2  o'clock.  We  met  and  the  propositions  were 
taken  up  about  buying  a  convict  farm,  the  propositions  to  sell. 
Thereupon  a  motion  was  made  that  a  committee  be  appointed  to 
confer  with  Mr.  Miller  in  reference  to  this  place,  and  the  chairman 
appointed  Colonel  Murphy  and  myself,  and  during  the  meeting, 


—  134  — 

while  we  were  there,  Mr.  Miller  came  in  and  Colonel  Murphy  in- 
terrogated him  before  the  board  in  reference  to  this  place  and  as 
to  what  was  the  lowest  price,  the  lowest  money  that  would  buy  it; 
and  he  said  that  $140,000  was  the  least  money  that  he  would  take 
for  it,  that.it  could  not  be  bought  for  less  than  that.  I  am  not  sure 
that  it  was  before  that  or  after  we  had  talked  with  Mr.  Miller  that 
Mr.  Moore  came  in  and  handed  to  Mr.  Crockett  the  proposition  to 
sell  this  place  to  the  State,  and  he  read  it,  and  it  was  the  contract 
that  has  been  presented  here  during  this  investigation.  Afterwards 
Colonel  Murphy  made  a  motion  that  we  accept  the  proposition  to 
buy  that  place  at  $140,000.  It  was  voted  on;  four  members  voted 
for  it  and  one  member  voted  against  it. 

Q.     Who  was  the  member  that  voted  against  it? 

A.  Governor  Davis.  When  the  board  adjourned  I  went  back 
to  my  office.  I  had  been  there  some  little  time  when  somebody 
came  down  from  the  Secretary  of  State's  office,  I  think  Mr.  McHenry, 
and  stated  that  they  wanted  me  to  come  up  to  the  Secretary  of 
State's  office;  I  went  up  there  and  found  Colonel  Murphy  and  Mf\ 
Crockett  and  Colonel  Moore  and  Mr.  Urquhart  there. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Where  did  you  say  they  came  after  you? 

A.  Came  down  to  my  office.  I  am  not  sure  whether  Colonel 
Murphy  or  Mr.  Crockett  had  either  of  them  signed  the  contract 
when  I  went  up  there  or  not,  but  if  they  had  not  done  so  it  was 
signed  immediately  after,  as  I  signed  the  contract  then — it  was 
ready  to  sign.  After  that  Judge  Moore  took  the  contract  and  car- 
ried it  in  to  Governor  Davis  and  came  back  and  left  the  contract 
with  Mr.  Crockett — gave  it  to  him.  Captain  Monroe  was  not  there, 
and  Mr.  Moore  said  to  Mr.  Crockett  that  he  could  just  keep  that 
contract  until  the  next  morning  and  that  Captain  Monroe  could 
sign  it  the  next  morning.  It  had  been  signed  by  Colonel  Urquhart 
at  the  time  and  it  was  left  there  to  stay  there  until  morning  for  Mr. 
Monroe  to  sign  up.  After  that  I  went  back  to  my  office  and  was 
there  for  a  few  minutes  and  went  out  and  went  home.  On  the 
street  I  heard  some  one  say,  I  don't  know  just  who;  I  met  Mr. 
Crockett  and  Mr.  Ludwig,  and  we  walked  up  Main  street  together 
to  Seventh  or  Eighth  and  Main,  and  Mr.  Crockett  went  home  and 
I  went  home.  That  was  before  dark. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  cash 
payment  on  that  farm,  Judge? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  anything  about  when  the  cash  pay- 
ment was  made. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Weaver)  Governor  Davis,  I  understand  then,  did 
not  go  along  with  you  gentlemen  on  your  visit  to  that  farm? 


—  135  — 

A.     No,  sir;  he  did  not  go. 

Q.  Have  you  visited  there  since  this  sale,  or  has  the  Governor 
ever  visited  there  since? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  been  there  since.  I  don't  know  whether 
he  has  ever  visited  there  or  not;  he  has  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  I  want  to  ask  what  feature  of  that  inves- 
tigation occupied  most  of  your  time? 

A.  Well,  I  was  in  the  timber  part  of  it  most  of  the  time  that 
I  was  there;  during  most  of  the  morning  that  we  were  there  I  was 
in  the  timber  part  of  it. 

Q.  You  spent  a  great  deal  of  your  time,  I  suppose,  in  investi- 
gating the  character  of  the  soil? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     And  the  amount  of  this  Johnson  grass  that  was  on  it? 

A.  I  could  not  say  so  much  about  that  as  I  was  back  on  the 
land  that  has  not  been  put  in  cultivation — the  land  in  the  timber. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  very  particular  attention  as  to  what  amount 
of  land  there  was  in  cultivation? 

A.  I  can't  tell  about  that.  But  on  inquiry  there  was  said  to 
be  about  twenty-four  or  twenty-five  hundred  acres.  I  know  thpre 
is  a  large  tract,  I  suppose  twenty-four  hundred  acres  or  around 
there. 

Q.  Can  you  give  an  idea  of  about  how  much  time  you  spent 
in  investigating  the  timber  portion  of  that  farm? 

A.  Why  we  went  out  early  in  the  morning  and  we  went  right 
into  the  timber  and  was  in  it  until  12  o'clock. 

Q.  While  you  investigated  the  timber  features  of  it  these  other 
gentlemen  were  qn  the  cultivated  portion? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  You  investigated  the  farm  I  suppose  for  its  whole  length 
up  and  down  the  river? 

A.  In  going  to  it,  Mr.  Stockard,  you  go  through  the  farm  from 
Varner  to  get  to  the  dwelling  house.  About  two  miles  from  Varner 
you  strike  it  on  the  southeast  corner  and  there  you  strike  the 
cleared  land,  and  you  go  through  that  on  up  through,  up  on  the 
river  to  where  the  dwelling  houses  are  and  everything  of  that  kind, 
and  we  went  right  up  there  that  afternoon;  we  went  clear  up 
there,  that  far,  I  suppose  three  miles  across,  and  in  going  back  the 
next  day  we  went  around;  you  see  the  evening  before  we  went 
across  here  (indicating  by  motion  of  hand),  and  cut  across  to  the 
northeast  corner  of  the  farm,  and  in  coming  back  the  next  day  I 
cut  around  next  to  the  river  and  around  to  the  outside  of  the  cleared 


—  186  — 

fand;  so  we  went  over  part  of  it  in  going  over  and  another  part  in 
coming  back.  We  came  around  on  the  east  and  south  side  of  the 
cleared  land,  and  so  that  gave  us  a  pretty  good  view  of  all  the 
cleared  land  back  in  there. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  particular  attention  to  the  levee  along  the 
river? 

A.     No,  sir;   not  especially. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  whether  there  had  been  much  of  that  land 
washed  away  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  did  not  notice. 

Q.  Judge,  do  you  consider  that  your  character  has  been  at- 
tacked and  your  integrity  has  been  impugned  in  any  way  in  this 
matter? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  feel  very  much  that  way  about  it,  Mr.  Stockard. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  that  you  have  been  accused  of  being  a  party 
to  a  conspiracy — 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  if  there  was  any  collusion  about  it  I  did  not 
know  anything  about  it. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Funk)  Judge  Bradford,  are  you  a  farmer? 
^A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     Did  you  consider  the  soil  very  fertile  down  there? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  consider  it,  Mr.  Funk,  one  of  the  finest  tracts 
of  land  I  have  ever  seen  in  Arkansas. 

Q.  Now  next  to  the  river,  you  know  about  the  soil  next  to  the 
river,  you  know  the  soil  next  to  the  river  is  really  made  you  know, 
mostly  a  sandy  loam,  loam  land  next  to  the  river — 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  this  land  commences  and  runs  back;  if  you 
know  about  bottom  land  you  understand  that  as  it  runs  back,  you 
get  away  from  the  water  that  sandy  loam  land  gradually  gives  way 
to  a  black  soil,  and  some  of  it  runs  into  buckshot.  I  think  there 
is  some  buckshot  land  down  there.  And  down  in  our  country,  at 
home,  the  buckshot  land  is  considered  the  best  cotton  land  that  we 
have.  But  you  take  that  land  down  there,  that  sandy  soil  next  to 
the  river,  and  it  runs  back,  gradually  back  into  the  timber  land, 
where  the  timber  is  now;  and  some  of  it  is  this  black  stiff  land. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Judge  Bradford,  what  do  you  think  of 
the  charges  made  in  the  Governor's  message,  that  the  board  paid 
an  exorbitant  price  for  that  farm? 

A.  I  don't  think  that  we  did,  Mr.  Chairman.  I  tell  you,  Judge, 
I  do  not  think  we  did.  I  will  tell  you  what  I  know  about  it;  when 
we  came  back  to  Varner  from  the  Cummins  place,  we  had  a  con- 
versation with  Mr.  Rice,  who  lives  at  Varner,  and  Mr.  Rice  says 


—  137  — 

that  he  has  lived  there  all  his  life,  and  he  told  me  as  we  were  going 
to  that  place  that  he  had  been  over  every  foot  of  it,  and  that  he 
had  hunted  all  over  it;  and  when  we  came  back  there  I  had  a  talk 
with  him  about  that  place  and  asked  him  a  whole  lot  of  questions 
about  it,  and  finally  asked  him — I  first  asked  Mr.  Monroe  and  Mr. 
Crockett  if  they  had  any  objections  to  my  asking  about  what  would 
be  a  fair  price  for  that  place,  and  they  said  they  did  not,  and  so  I 
asked  him  as  to  what  he  thought  that  place  was  worth,  and  he 
did  not  say  at  once,  and  I  asked  him  if  he  would  consider  $15  or 
$16  an  acre  for  that  place,  taking  the  whole  of  it  together,  all  over, 
an  unreasonable  price  for  that  place,  and  he  said  it  was  not,  but 
that  the  place  was  worth  it;  that  it  was  very  cheap  at  that  money, 
and  that  was  the  price  I  placed  the  estimate  to  him  at,  some  two 
or  three  dollars  more  than  we  had  been  offered  the  place  at. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Judge,  you  do  not  know  whether  there 
was  any  understanding  between  Colonel  Rice  and  the  parties  own- 
ing that  property  or  parties  to  sell  it  or  not,  do  you? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  think  that  was  the  first  time  that  I  had  ever 
seen  him.  I  and  the  other  gentlemen  wanted  to  get  his  opinion  of 
it.  I  thought  that  Mr.  Rice's  judgment  on  that  would  be  first-class, 
and  I  think  so  yet. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  investigation  as  to  what  that  place  had 
formerly  sold  for? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.     You  did  not  know  that  it  had  been  sold  before? 
A.     No,  sir;    I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  investigation  as  to  what  it  had  been 
renting  for? 

A.  I  understood  that  they  were  renting  that  land — they  were 
not  renting  it  either;  it  was  being  worked  on  the  shares;  but  I 
understood  that  they  were  renting  what  they  were  renting  for 
one  hundred  pounds  of  lint  cotton  to  the  acre;  they  got  one  hun- 
dred pounds  of  lint  cotton  per  an  acre  of  land. 

Q.     Did  you  learn  any  thing  about  the  Willie  brothers — what 
they  paid  rent  for  that  place? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  never  heard  anything  about  that? 

A.  No,  I  understood  from  one  of  the  Willie  brothers — he  told 
me  that  he  worked  the  place  one  time — worked  the  place  for  sev- 
eral years,  and  I  understood  from  him  they  paid  rent  for  it,  but 
I  didn't  ask  what  rent  they  paid.  I  had  seen  one  of  them  before 
and  talked  with  him  in  reference  to  the  place,  but  I  did  not  ask 
him  what  rent  he  paid  for  it. 


—  138  — 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  inquiries  as  to  what  the  place  was 
assessed  at  on  the  tax  books? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  did  not. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  know  what  "it  had  rented  for,  or  what  it 
had  formerly  sold  for,  or  anything  about  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Or  what  it  was  rented  at — 

A.  No,  sir;  up  to  that  time  I  had  never  heard  it  said  for  what 
it  was  ever  sold  for  to  others,  or  it  had  rented  for;  but  I  understand 
that  it  rents  now,  and  had  been  renting  for  years,  for  a  rental  of 
one  hundred  pounds  of  lint  cotton  to  the  acre. 

Q.  You  don't  know  anything  about  that  place  being  offered 
to  the  State  for  a  convict  farm  at  any  time  since  Governor  Fish 
back's  administration? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  do  not. 

Q.  Now  in  reference  to  the  meeting  at  which  the  members 
entered  into  that  contract  at  2  o'clock;  on  the  day  that  that  con 
tract  was  presented,  had  you  seen  it  or  had  an  understanding 
as  to  what  that  contract  was  to  be? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  never  saw  the  contract  before. 

Q.     You  had  not  seen  the  contract? 

A.     No,  sir;  never  had  seen  it  before. 

Q.  Was  that  contract  carefully  looked  into  by  the  board  at  the 
time  it  was  presented  to  it? 

A.     It    was    read    and    considered;    yes,    sir. 

Q.  Did  you  come  to  the  understanding  in  that  board  meeting 
that  you  would  accept  that  contract  and  proposition  to  purchase 
that  farm? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  my  recollection  is  that  there  was  a  resolution 
offered  accepting  the  contract  and  the  purchase  of  the  farm. 

Q.  Did  you  sign  or  execute  that  contract  during  the  board 
meeting? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  offer  any  reason  why  there  was  not  an  agreement 
in  there  in  regard  to  the  contract  being  signed  in  that  meeting? 

A.  There  wasn't  anything  said  about  the  subject  of  signing 
the  contract  during  the  board  meeting.  There  was  the  order,  or 
resolution  made,  and  my  recollection  is  that  it  is  in  the  record,  and 
I  think  the  record  will  show  that  we  accepted  to  take  the  proposi- 
tion— take  the  place  at  $140,000 — and  the  Financial  Agent  was 
directed  to  pay  the  $30,000  of  the  purchase  money  upon  the  execu- 
tion of  the  contract  by  Colonel  Urquhart;  now  that  is  not  an 


—  139  — 

answer  to  your  question;  I  don't  presume  that  any  member  of  the 
board  would  have  signed  that  contract  before  Mr.  Urquhart  had 
signed  it.  I  wouldn't;  and  for  that  reason  I  would  not  have  signed 
it  at  that  time.  I  wouldn't  have  signed  it  at  all  until  he  agreed 
to  it  and  had  executed  the  contract  himself. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  information  from  Colonel  Moore  or  Mr. 
Miller  to  the  effect  that  Governor  Davis  had  threatened  to  enjoin 
the  sale,  and  that  Mr.  Miller  by  reason  of  that  wanted  this  deal 
closed  up  that  night? 

A.  No,  I  did  not  see  Colonel  Moore  but  once,  and  that  was 
when  I  went  up  to  the  Secretary  of  State's  office  to  sign  the  con- 
tract, that  is  after  the  meeting,  and  I  was  not  down  in  town  that 
night  and  did  not  know  about  it. 

Q.     You    were   aware   that   Colonel   Moore   had    been   retained 
to  draw  up  this  contract  and  close  up  the  deal — did  you  know? 
A.     Retained  by  whom? 
Q.     Mr.  Miller? 

A.     I  didn't  know  anything  about  that;    no,  sir. 
Q.     That  Mr.  Moore  was  their  attorney — attorney  for  Mr.  Mil- 
ler— he  was  there  as  the  attorney  for  Mr.  Miller  and  Colonel  Urqu- 
bart  and  presented  the  contract? 
A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  Colonel  Moore's  testimony  here  the  other 
night? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  that  he  stated  that  Mr.  Miller  came  to 
him  and  wanted  it  closed  up  that  night — came  to  him  before  dark 
and  wanted  it  closed  up  before  dark  on  account  of  Governor  Davis 
wanting  or  threatening  to  enjoin  the  sale? 
A.     Yes,  sir;   I  heard  that. 

Q.     Now   is   that  not   the  reason  the   contract  was  closed   up 
and  signed  after  night— the  reason  they  signed  it  that  evening? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Wasn't  that  the  purpose  of  signing  that  contract  that  even- 
ing, that  the  parties  were  fearful  of  being  enjoined,  or  there  had 
been  a  threat  made — 

A.  Why  1  said  I  did  not  know  anything  of  that  kind.  When 
we  three  members  signed  the  contract  I  had  never  heard  of  it. 

Q.     You  signed  that  contract  after  Colonel  Urquhart  signed  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  say  you  signed  it  before  night? 

A.     Yes,  sir.      I  want  you  to  be  clear  about  it.     Colonel  Urqu- 


—  140  — 

hart  signed  it  before  night,  and  I  signed  it  immediately  after  he 
signed  it,  or  the  members  there  did. 

Q.     You   did  not  make   any  investigation   as  to   whether   that 
levee  was  compelled  to  be  kept  up  in  order  to  protect  that  land? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You   don't  know  whether  that  levee  had  washed  away  or 
not  that  had  been  put  in  there? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  make  any  investigation  of  anything  to  know 
about  how  much  of  that  farm  had  washed  away  in  the  last  few 
years  > 

A.     No,  sir;  never  heard  a  word  stated  about  it. 
Q.     The  reason   I  ask  you  these   questions,   is  that  reference 
is  made  to  it  in  the  Governor's  message,  I  think,  by  Governor  Davis. 
I  understood  him  to  say  in  his  message  that  at  the  upper  end  of 
this  place  was  or  had  been  washed  into  the  river? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  understood  him  to  say  that  the  upper  part  of  it 
had  washed  into  the  river.  Now  when  we  went  across  it  there, 
the  levee  came  right  down  to  the  river;  the  levee  is  across  the 
upper  end  of  the  place,  or  what  is  known  as  the  upper  end,  and 
the  levee  was  there  then.  I  don't  know  how  long  it  had  been 
there,  but  I  know  the  levee  is  there  because  we  rode  right  down 
the  levee  when  we  came  from  the  upper  end  of  the  place.  I  saw 
it.  It  may  have  washed  at  some  places  when  it  overflowed,  but 
I  never  heard  anything  said  about  it.  I  know  there  is  a  levee 
there,  and  no  appearance  of  its  having  been  washed  into  the  river. 
Q.  Did  you  make  any  investigation  as  to  whether  that  farm 
is  subject  to  overflow  from  the  river  or  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  they  told  me  that  there  was  no  overflow  on 
it  unless  it  comes  down  through  the  cypress  brake  on  the  west  and 
backs  in  from  Cypress  Creek  that  runs  back  of  that  place  and 
between  the  place  and  Varner;  and  in  talking  with  Captain  Rice 
about  it  he  told  me  when  the  river  got  very  high  and  the  levee 
broke  away  above  there,  something  like  ten  or  twelve  miles,  at 
some  little  station  up  there,  and  it  come  down  and  run  into  that 
Cypress  Creek  and  overflow  that,  and  that  it  would  then  back  over 
some  of  that  land,  but  on  a  very  little  of  the  land,  and  I  under- 
stood that  probably  it  backs  up  some  of  these  sloughs,  but  not 
enough  to  damage  the  place.  And  after  I  asked  him  about  it  and 
learned  it  was  caused  from  the  natural  overflow  I  did  not  presume 
there  was  much  in  it,  or  that  there  could  be  much  damage  done  to' 
the  cleared  land  by  the  natural  overflow.  All  the  water  that  comes 


—  141  — 

on  the  place  is  water  from  the  river  that  runs  into  that  Cypress 
Creek  and  backs  up  that  lake. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Who  is  this  Financial  Agent? 

A.     Mr.  M.  D.  L.  Cook. 

Q.     At  that  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  was  that  cotton  transaction,  when  did  it  take  place 
as  to  the  land  transaction? 

A.  The  cotton  was  sold  a  few  days  before  we  bought  that 
farm.  I  don't  know  just  how  long,  but  it  was  a  few  days  before 
that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  Financial  Agent  being 
instructed  to  sell  that  cotton? 

A.  Nothing  about  it  except  some  little  time  before  that,  before 
we  bought  that  place,  Mr.  Crockett  and  myself  went  out  to  the 
penitentiary  one  day,  and  Mr.  Hogins  said  tat  he  had  quite  a  'lot 
of  cotton  there — I  don't  remember  how  much,  but  I  think  he  said 
one  hundred  and  fifty  bales,  prob'ably  more  thfn  that.  I  said  some- 
thing to  Mr.  Hogins  about  their  holding  the  cotton,  or  something 
about  it;  I  said  to  him  that  I  thought  it  was  bad  policy  to  hold 
that  cotton,  that  it  ought  to  be  sold.  A  day  or  two  after  that — it 
may  have  been  the  same  day  or  the  next  day — I  met  Cook  down 
here  and  I  asked  him  why  it  was  that  he  had  not  sold  that  cotton, 
and  he  said  they  had  been  holding  it  to  get  more  of  it  together; 
that  the  more  cotton  they  got  together  the  better  chance  they  had 
to  sell  it  for  a  better  price,  and  probably  that  was  the  reason  they 
had  not  sold  it.  But  my  advice  to  him  was  that  they  would  not 
make  by  holding  that  cotton  and  it  ought  to  have  been  sold.  I 
concluded  that  cotton  would  still  go  lower  than  it  was  then.  A 
day  or  two  after  that  I  think  it  was,  Cook  came  into  my  office  and 
said  he  had  been  around  to  see  the  members  of  the  board  about 
selling  that  cotton,  and  asked  me  what  I  thought  about  it.  I  said, 
you  know  what  I  think  about  it,  because  1  told  him  before  that  1 
thought  it  ought  to  be  sold.  That  is  all  I  know  about  the  sale  <f 
the  cotton. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  At  the  time  of  the  signing  of  the 
contract  were  you  aware  that  the  cotton  had  been  sold? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  think  I  knew  it  had  been  sold. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Judge,  does  the  Financial  Agent  take 
charge  of  the  money  that  he  takes  in  on  transactions  like  the  sale 
of  that  cotton? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  142  — 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  he  is  allowed  to  carry  on  hand, 
in  amount — the  maximum  amount? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not,  Mr.  Crutcher.  Some  of  these  things  I 
haven't  looked  up;  so  1  can't  tell  you  just  about  these  things.  I 
would  have  to  look  them  up  first. 

Q.  Did  you  know  if  this  $30,000  was  realized  from  the  sale 
of  that  cotton  at  that  time — you  paid  $30,000  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     That  was  the  order  of  the  board  to  pay  $30,000. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  this  $30,000  that  was  paid  to  Mr.  Urquhart 
was  realized  from  the  sale  of  that  cotton  at  that  time? 

A.  I  can't  say  positively  about  that,  Mr.  Crutcher.  Mr. 
Crockett  and  myself  looked  the  matter  up  this  afternoon  to  see 
what  the  cotton  brought,  and  we  went  to  the  Financial  Agent's 
report  that  he  made  in  November,  to  find  at  what  price  that  cotton 
was  sold — what  that  cotton  brought.  Mr.  Moore  was  down  here 
and  we  asked  him  about  it  and  he  said  that  the  cotton  was  sold — 
the  cotton  that  they  sold  at  that  time  brought  something  over 
$30,000— $30,450  or  $30,500. 

Q.  (By  Judge  Merriman)  You  mean  Mr.  Joe  Moore,  do  you 
not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   he  is  the  clerk  out  at  the  penitentiary. 

Q.     What  position   does  this  Mr.   Joe   Moore  occupy? 

A.  He  is  the  clerk  at  the  penitentiary,  or  agent  that  keeps 
the  books.  I  don't  know  just  what  they  call  him.  He  is  the  Com- 
missary Clerk,  I  believe  they  call  him. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Who  does  this  Financial  Agent  have  to 
account  to  for  his  actions? 

A.     To  the  board. 

Q.  Is  it  the  custom  of  the  board  to  look  closely  into  these 
transactions? 

A.     I  don't  know  just  what  has  been  the  custom  of  the  board. 

Q.  Have  you  gone  over  the  books  to  see  what  the  custom  of 
the  board  is  about  it? 

•  A.  No,  sir.  The  Financial  Agent  files  a  monthly  statement, 
or  a  monthly  report  showing  the  receipts  and  disbursements  that 
he  has  made.  Now  I  haven't  gotten  acquainted  very  well  with 
these  things  since  I  have  been  on  the  board;  I  haven't  been  on  the 
board  so  very  long. 

Q.  How  does  he  go  about  to  purchase  supplies  for  the  peni- 
tentiary? Are  there  requisitions  made  for  bids  to  furnish  the 
penitentiary? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  but  he  does  not  have  to  purchase  from  the  lowest 


bidder  or  anything  like  that:  The  State  requires  that  he  shall  not 
buy  unless  it  is  the  best  terms  that  he  can  make.  The  State  does 
not  require  him  to  accept  bids  and  buy  from  the  lowest  bidder  or 
anything  like  that,  but  he  buys  upon  requisitions.  They  file  requi- 
sitions and  he  buys  upon  the  requisitions,  and  the  State  requires 
that  he  buy  upon  the  best  terms  that  he  can  procure.  And  he 
files  his  report  every  month,  at  least  the  State  requires  him  to  do 
it,  showing  his  receipts  and  disbursements. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  At  the  end  of  the  month  I  believe  it  is 
required  of  him  to  turn  in  any  money  that  he  may  have  on  hand? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  at  the  end  of  the  month. 

Q.  Had  that  been  done  at  that  time,  or  at  any  time,  do  you 
know? 

A.     You  mean  having  paid  back  into  the  treasury? 

Q.     Yes,  sir? 

A.     I  think  not;   no,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  If  you  were  going  to  buy  a  farm  of  a 
like  magnitude  and  pay  $140,000,  would  you  buy  it  on  your  own 
account  after  an  investigation  of  twelve  hours? 

A.  Not  if  I  was  going  to  make  the  investigation  all  by  myself, 
Mr.  Stockard,  I  would  not.  I  would  take  more  time  than  that, 
because  it  would  take  more  time  to  go  over  it;  but  in  this  case 
there  was  four  men,  and  each  one  of  us  had  gone  over  it,  and  I 
felt  that  so  far  as  these  gentlemen  was  concerned  I  was  satisfied 
that  the  place  was  worth  what  it  had  been  offered  to  us  at.  Now 
if  I  understood  you,  Mr.  Stockard,  it  was  if  I  had  been  buying  the 
place  myself,  buy  a  place  that  I  never  had  seen,  and  that  I  was 
personally  interested  in,  I  would  have  taken  more  time,  of  course, 
but  in  this  case  here  was  four  men  looking  at  the  same  place  for 
the  same  thing. 

Q.     You  never  had  seen  the  farm  before? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  I  believe  that  it  was  charged  or  intimated  that  you  had 
been  unduly  hasty  in  the  purchase  of  that  farm,  now  I  want  to 
know  if  you  were  going  to  make  a  trade  of  that  magnitude,  if  you 
would  make  it  on  an  examination  of  but  about  twelve  hours? 

A.  I  would  have  taken  some  time  if  I  didn't  have  anybody 
else's  judgment  on  it  except  myself.  I  would  have  looked  it  over 
more. 

Q.  But  if  you  had  three  men  who  you  know  were  competent 
to  advise  you  in  the  matter,  would  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  if  I  had  been  making  that  trade  for  myself,  with 


—  144  — 

the  judgment  of  the  other  three  members  who  had  gone  over  it, 
and  they  had  been  examining  it  and  considering  it  as  I  had,  I  would 
have  been  perfectly  satisfied  to  have  taken  that  land  without  any 
further  investigation. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Now  that  the  fact  has  been  drawn  out, 
concerning  the  purchase  of  the  farm,  and  the  purchase  price  of  it — 
what  is  now  known  as  the  convict  farm — as  a  member  of  the  Pen- 
itentiary Board,  think  you  acted  hastily  in  the  purchase  of  it? 

A.     No,  sir.      I  am  perfectly  satisfied. 

Q.  (By  F.  L.  McCain,  Esq.)  Judge,  I  will  ask  you  if  it  is 
not  a  fact  that  you  somewhat  relied  upon  the  judgment  of  Captain 
Rice  from  the  very  fact  that  Jeff  Davis  himself  especially  men- 
tioned him  as  competent  judge? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  considered  him  as  being  perfectly  reliable,  and 
especially  after  seeing  the  place  as  I  had. 

Q.  Then  you  relied  somewhat  on  Governor  Davis'  own  repre- 
sentations about  the  man? 

A.  I  did  not  take  into  consideration  that  part  of  it  especially. 
I  think  the  Governor  had  offered  to  submit  the  matter — at  least 
I  had  understood  that  he  had  selected  him — had  offered  to  select 
two  gentlemen,  honorable  parties,  to  select  a  place  for  the  board. 
Of  course  I  was  confident  that  what  he  said  about  it  was  true,  or 
believe  he  said  just  what  was  right  about  it,  and  I  think  so  yet. 

Q.  You  have  farmed  a  great  number  of  years,  I  understand; 
been  engaged  in  farming  some  years,  have  you  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  have  been  at  it  all  my  life. 

Q.     And  as  a  farmer  you  have  sold  cotton  from  time  to  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  able — since  the  question  has  been 
brought  out  as  to  advisability  of  holding  cotton — to  ascertain  any 
scheme  by  which  you  could  tell  when  the  price  of  cotton  would 
go,  and  if  so  how? 

A.  No,  sir.  That  is  a  pretty  hard  question.  You  can't  tell 
much  about  it. 

Q.     You  have  been  selling  cotton  all  your  life? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  ever  since  I  have  been  a  farmer — for  myself. 

Q.  Judge,  you  heard  me  ask  Mr.  Crockett  when  they  came 
to  get  their  crops  to  the  market  about  the  two  ways,  and  to  get 
men  and  supplies  to  the  Cummins  place,  now  it  is  a  fact,  I  believe, 
you  can  go  from  here  by  river? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  Boats  run  from  Memphis  to  Pine  Bluff  all  the  seasons  of 
the  year,  don't  they? 


-145- 

A.    I  understand  so. 

Q.  Is  that  true  of  the  Altheimer  and  other  places — do  steam- 
boats go  right  up  to  the  Altheimer  place? 

A.  No,  sir;  you  have  to  depend  on  the  railroad  to  get  to  the 
Altheimer  place;  of  course.  It  is  not  on  the  river. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you,  Judge,  if  it  is  not  a  fact  that  Governor 
Davis — now  why  I  ask  you  this  is  because  it  has  been  brought  out 
by  members  of  the  committee — do  you  consider  the  insinuations 
in  the  message  of  the  Governor,  and  he  seems  to  have  put  that 
same  construction  on  it  himself — now  is  it  not  a  fact  that  he  has 
written  letters  in  the  public  press  in  regard  to  this  purchase  out- 
side of  his  message,  and  that  they  have  been  published,  reflecting 
upon  the  other  members  of  the  board,  and  that  he  had  in  one  letter 
that  he  would  pardon  every  convict  that  you  would  send  down 
there;  have  you  ever  seen  those  letters? 

A.  I  don't  know;  I  don't  think  I  read  any  letter  saying  that 
he  would  pardon  the  convicts.  That  is  the  conversation  that 
he  had  with  the  board. 

Q.     Did  you  not  see  that  in  the  Gazette — in  November? 

A.  I  don't  remember  that  I  did,  Mr.  McCain.  He  told  us 
that  he  would  pardon  all  the  convicts  that  we  sent  down  there.  I 
don't  remember  that  it  was  in  any  letter. 

Q.     Well  he  did  tell  you  that  he  would  do  so? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  told  us  three  members  of  the  board  at  a  meet- 
ing that  we  held  that  he  would  pardon  every  convict  that  we  had 
on  there.  That  we  would  never  work  a  convict  on  it  while  he 
was  Governor. 

Q.     Did  he  do  it? 

A.     No,   sir;    he  has  not,  so  far. 

Q.     Is  there  any  convicts   there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Judge,  one  other  question — it  has  probably  been  asked  by 
one  of  the  members  of  the  board  already — as  a  matter  of  fact 
from  your  experience  as  a  bottom  farmer,  and  having  experience, 
as  I  understand,  in  farming  in  the  bottom — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     In  the  black  land  in  the — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  you  are  familiar  with  the  farming  lands  around  in 
the  country? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  from  what  you  have   heard  about  it  and   from   your 


140  — 

investigation  that  you  have  made,  do  you  think  to-day  that,  taking 
into  consideration  the  terms  upon  which  this  place  was  purchased 
and  the  conditions  of  the  contract,  that  it  was  a  wise  thing  for 
the  State  that  it  was  bought,  and  that  it  was  cheap  at  the  price? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  wouldn't  take  that  for  it  now  if  it  was  mine. 
A  man  couldn't  buy  it  for  that  much  cash  if  it  was  mine  to-night. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Did  you  look  at  any  other  farm  after 
you  became  a  member  of  the  board? 

A.  I  looked  at  the  Altheimer  farm;  yes,sir;  I  went  and  looked 
at  that. 

Q.     You  looked  over  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  comparative  merits  of  the  two  places  in 
your  estimation? 

A.  Well,  I  think  the  Cummins  place  is  very  much  superior 
to  the  other  places.  That  was  my  judgment. 

Q.  Now  did  Mr.  Hogins  also — the  Superintendent  of  the  State 
Penitentiary — look  over  this  farm? 

A.     Which  one  do  you  mean,  Colonel? 

Q.  The  Superintendent — look  over  the  Cummins  and  Altheimer 
farms? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  with  us  when  we  went  to  the  Cummins 
place  and  when  we  went  to  the  Altheimer  place. 

T.  C.  MONROE,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  What  official  position  do  you  hold, 
Colonel? 

A.     State  Auditor. 

Q.     As  such  are  you  a  member  of  the  Penitentiary  Board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  also  President  of  the  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Colonel,  the  committee  would  like  for  you  to  give 
them  in  your  own  language  and  as  clearly  and  completely  as  pos- 
sible what  you  know  concerning  the  facts  surrounding  the  purchase 
of  this  farm? 

A.  You  want  me  to  state  also  in  reference  to  the  circum- 
stances leading  up  to  it? 

Q.     Yes,  sir? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  suppose  in  July  of  last  year,  1902,  I  had  been 
at  my  home  in  the  southern  part  of  the  State  sick  for  some  weeks, 
and  when  I  returned  to  my  office  I  was  informed  that  there  was 


—  147  — 

being  considerable  talk  had  with  regard  to  the  purchase  of  a  farm 
for  a  convict  farm.  I  think  several  parties  talked  with  different 
members  of  the  board  about  their  different  places,  and  a  few 
days  after  my  return  I  think  the  first  man  that  proposed  to  sell  us 
his  farm  was  Mr.  Houston  in  Lincoln  county,  and  then  in  a  few 
days  these  parties — Mr.  Miller,  who  was  representing  Mr.  Urquhart 
in  the  sale  of  the  Cummins  farm — well,  he  came  in  and  talked  some 
and  he  maybe  saw  a  good  many  of  the  members  of  the  board  with 
reference  to  the  purchase  of  the  farm.  We  had  had  some  experi- 
ence formerly  in  trying  to  buy  a  farm  the  year  before,  1901;  had 
some  experience  in  trying  to  look  up  and  decide  upon  a  place,  but 
we  had  failed;  so  after  talking  together  at  some  meeting  of  the 
board,  perhaps  in  August,  I  am  not  certain  as  to  the  dates,  when 
the  Governor  introduced  some  resolution  for  bids  to  be  consid- 
ered, or  propositions,  rather,  for  the  sale  of  places  to  the  State  for 
a  convict  farm,  and  among  others  was  Mr.  Miller  and  Mr.  Houston, 
and  I  have  stated  others,  but  I  do  not  remember  their  names  just 
now;  I  cannot  recall  their  names.  These  parties  had  lands  that 
they  wanted  to  offer,  and  they  would  bring  in  places,  lands,  but 
no  figures  before  the  board,  or  any  member  of  the  board  that  I 
ever  heard  of,  but  nothing  was  done  for  quite  a  while,  and  we  let 
the  matter  go  over  perhaps  until  September;  or  it  may  have  been 
in  September  probably  that  the  Governor  introduced  the  paper 
that  we  would  receive  proposals.  Well,  during  the  time  Mr.  Hous- 
ton made  several  visits,  as  well  as  Mr.  Miller,  and  they  would 
come  in  my  office  and  Mr.  Bradford's  and  Gov.  Davis'  and  Mr. 
Crockett's  to  talk  about  these  places  until  they  kind  of  got  wor- 
rysome  to  me,  and  finally  I  told  them  that  I  couldn't  see  any  sense 
in  their  sitting  down  and  talking  to  members  of  the  board  for  an 
hour  without  figures;  we  wanted  to  know  the  price  and  number  of 
acres  of  land;  you  make  a  price  that  you  may  expect  us  to  pay 
for  the  place  if  we  buy  it.  So  after  a  while  Mr.  Houston  came  in 
with  a  great  rush  and  said  he  had  to  sell  his  place  right  then  or 
else  his  proposal  would  be  withdrawn.  I  told  him  I  did  not  sup- 
pose the  State  meant  to  run  mto  a  sale  without  investigating; 
and  so  a  few  days,  or  some  time  afterward,  it  was  reported  that 
he  had  sold  his  place — had  withdrawn  his  proposition  and  sold  his 
place — and  so  then  it  narrowed  down  to  Mr.  Miller's  proposition, 
the  Cummins  place.  Subsequently  we  three  members  of  the  board, 
myself,  Judge  Bradford  and  Mr.  Crockett,  and  the  Superintendent 
of  the  penitentiary,  went  down  to  look  at  the  Maple  Grove  and 
Cummins  places — and  we  went  on  the  19th,  I  believe;  Judge  Brad- 


—  148  — 

ford  and  Mr.  Crockett  have  testified  as  to  the  dates  already  here — 
on  the  19th  of  November,  and  we  drove  over  a  portion  of  the  farm 
on  the  afternoon  of  the  19th,  going  from  Varner  up  to  the  home 
place  on  the  river.  We  saw  quite  a  good  deal  of  cultivated  land, 
or  the  cultivated  part  of  the  farm  at  that  time,  in  passing  from 
Varner  up  to  the  home  place.  Next  morning  as  early  as  we  could 
get  conveyances  and  could  get  out — I  suppose  it  was  about  7:30 
or  maybe  8  o'clock — we  started  out  on  a  tour  of  inspection,  and 
after  riding  perhaps  a  mile  and  a  half  or  two  miles,  part  of  the 
time  on  the  cultivated  portion  of  the  place  and  part  of  the  time 
in  the  timber — when  we  got  to  the  timber  I  had  to  abandon  that, 
for  I  was  not  able  to  ride  horseback  through  the  timber  on  ac- 
count of  a  wound  during  the  war,  and  I  had  to  ride  over  the  cul- 
tivated part.  I  couldn't  ride  very  much  anyway,  because  I  was  shot 
and  in  such  a  way  that  I  could  not  dodge  the  limbs  on  the  trees, 
and  so  I  took  for  my  part  of  the  inspection  the  cultivated  part  of 
the  farm,  and  Mr.  Crockett  went  with  me;  Judge  Bradford  and  Mr. 
Hogins  went  through  the  timber  part  of  it.  We  expected  to  come 
out  at  the  upper  end  up  by  the  river  above  the  house  and  go  down 
through  the  lower  end — I  don't  know,  the  east  or  the  southeast 
end  of  the  farm.  We  were  principally  on  the  cultivated  part  of  the 
land  where  it  had  been  cultivated  well,  fts  I  saw  as  fine  cotton  as 
I  ever  saw  grown  on  that  which  had  been  cultivated  well,  and  that 
.that  had  not  been  cultivated  so  well  the  crops  were  not  so  good, 
and  that  was  mostly  where  the  Johnson  grass  was;  it  was  in  the 
drills,  where  it  had  not  been  worked.  That  is  about  the  rounds 
and  experience  I  had  in  going  through  the  place.  After  we  had 
gone  through  the  place,  riding  through  the  place  from  probably  8 
o'clock  in  the  morning  until  3  o'clock  in  the  afternoon,  or  until  2 
o'clock  in  the  afternoon,  I  will  say— from  7:30  to  2  perhaps  in  the 
afternoon — we  had  gotten  back  to  the  home  place,  and  we  then 
went  back  to  Varner;  that  was  the  afternoon  of  the  20th.  We 
went  around  the  left  side  of  the  farm  from  the  home  place  upon 
the  river  and  around  southeast— east  and  southeast  end  of  the 
farm — on  the  outside  of  it,  and  coming  back  we  came  on  the  left 
side— for  quite  a  distance  from  the  home  place  in  coming  back  to 
Varner.  We  went  back  to  Varner  that  afternoon  together.  We 
were  in  Capt.  Rice's  store,  and  he  being  an  old  citizen  there,  I 
relied  greatly  upon  his  statement  as  to  the  value  of  the  land. 
Having  known  Capt.  Rice  personally  for  quite  a  good  while,  and 
knowing  of  him  being  a  planter  and  an  old  settler  there,  I  have  a 
great  deal  of  confidence  in  what  he  said  about  the  value  of  land. 


—  149  — 

I  believe  I  stated  I  had  known  him  quite  a  while,  and  he  stated 
that  he  had  known  that  place  all  his  life;  that  he  had  hunted1  over 
it  ever  since  he  was  big  enough  to  carry  a  gun,  and  had  hunted 
bear,  deer  and  anything  else  that  anybody  else  hunted  in  this  coun- 
try; and  he  spoke  very  highly  of  it,  and  I  asked  him  his  opinion 
as  to  the  value  per  acre  of  the  land,  and  stated  did  he  think  it  was 
worth  $15  or  $20  an  acre,  and  my  recollection  is  that  he  said  that 
it  would  be  a  bargain  at  that.  So  we  came  back  on  the  afternoon 
of  the  20th  and  on  the  21st  we  had  a  meeting — it  was  our  regular 
meeting,  board  meeting.  We  have  certain  days  that  we  meet— 
the  second  and  fourth  Monday  in  each  month  or  the  first  and 
third— and  that  being  a  regular  meeting  day  I  called  the  board 
together  at  2  o'clock.  I  made  it  a  point  to  go  around  and  see  the 
Governor  and  find  out  what  hour  suited  him — find  what  hour  was 
most  convenient  for  him — and  I  notified  the  other  members  of  the 
board.  The  Governor  nearly  always  has  some  company  at  his  office 
and  so  I  went  to  him  and  ascertained  from  him  what  hour 
suited  his  convenience  to  have  a  board  meeting,  and  he  said  that 
it  suited  him  better  at  2  o'clock;  he  stated  that  he  had  some  busi- 
ness in  the  forenoon.  So  at  2  o'clock  I  called  the  meeting  to  order 
and  a  motion  to  purchase  the  farm  came  up,  and  upon  the  motion 
of  some  member  of  the  board,  perhaps  Mr.  Crockett,  Col.  Murphy 
and  Judge  Bradford  were  appointed  a  committee  to  confer  with  Mr. 
Miller  and  see  what  he  woud  take  for  his  place.  He  was  agent 
for  Col.  Urquhart  and  represented  him  in  this  proposal  to  sell 
this  place.  Mr.  Miller  came  in  about  that  time  and  we  interrogated 
him,  and  he  said  $140,000  was  the  least  that  the  place  could  be 
bought  for  under  the  circumstances,  condition  of  the  payments  and 
so  on.  In  the  meantime,  however,  after  this,  Col.  Moore  came  into 
the  office  and  handed  to  Mr.  Crockett,  the  Secretary,  a  paper  said 
to  be  a  contract.  Well,  it  was  a  contract — proposition  in  the  shape 
of  a  contract,  and  Mr.  Crockett  read  it  to  the  board,  and  after 
some  little  discussion  pro  and  con  a  motion  was  made  to  accept 
the  proposition,  which  was  carried,  the  vote  being  four  to  one. 
On  our  return  to  Little  Rock  on  the  night  of  the  20th  we  went 
to  our  respective  homes,  and  I  did  not  see  any  member  of  the 
board  the  next  day,  except  to  speak  to  them  when  I  notified  them 
of  the  board  meeting  at  2  o'clock.  I  had  no  idea  of  what  the  mind 
was  on  this  of  any  of  the  members  as  to  accepting  the  Cummins 
place.  Mr.  Crockett  and  I  thought  it  was  a  fine  piece  of  land,  and 
when  Judge  Bradford  and  Mr.  Hogins  returned  and  reported  what, 
they  had  seen  in  reference  to  the  timber  land  that  they  had  rode 


—  luO  — 

over;  tney  said  they  got  to  some  places  they  had  to  back  out  and 
go  around  another  way,  it  was  so  thick  they  could  not  get  through; 
they  had  to  ride  some  times  a  considerable  distance  out  of  their 
way  to  get  through  some  timber;  and  they  reported  it  an  excellent 
gbody  of  land,  in  their  judgment;  and  that  was  all  that  was  said 
between  me  and  any  other  member  of  the  board;  just  speaking  of^ 
it  in  a  general  way,  and  from  our  different  questions  asked;  just 
ask  any  one  we  would  happen  to  see  about  the  place  and  the  cot- 
ton raised,  and  made  our  examination  in  that  way.  Well,  as  to  the 
other  proceedings:  The  board  adjourned  to  meet  at  10  o'clock  the 
next  day.  I  was  not  well  and  have  not  been  for  several  years, 
and  the  trip  down  there  had  worried  me  considerably,  and  so  soon 
after  the  adjournment  of  the  board  I  went  down  stairs  to  my  office, 
staid  there  a  little  while  and  maybe  about  5  o'clock,  or  not  very 
long  after  that  I  went  on  down  to  my  boarding  house.  Mr.  Cook 
came  after  me  and  stated  that  Col.  Moore  was  at  the  Secretary  of 
State's  office  and  he  wanted  me  to  come  down  and  sign  the  con- 
tract. Well,  I  asked  no  questions;  I  just  stepped  into  the  carriage 
there,  and  not  having  anything  to  do,  I  went  over.  It  had  not 
occurred  to  me  t  about  signing  it  in  the  evening,  and  in  fact  did 
not  occur  at  all.  Mr.  Urquhart,  I  believe,  was  the  man  to  make 
the  contract,  and  I  did  not  know  anything  about  our  signing  it. 
So  I  just  went  down  to  my  office  and  dismissed  what  business  I 
had  before  me  at  the  time  and  went  up  to  my  boarding  house,  and 
Mr.  Cook  came  after  me  and  told  me  that  Col.  Moore  was  there 
and  wanted  me  to  sign  the  contract,  and  I  got  in  the  buggy  with 
him  and  came  back  to  the  office.  It  was  getting  perhaps  good 
dusk— after  5  o'clock.  It  was  not  dark  yet— it  does  not  get  good 
dark  that  time  of  the  year  at  that  time.  As  I  was  going  up  to  the 
Secretary  of  State's  office  I  met  Gov.  Davis  out  in  the  state  house 
yard,  in  front  of  the  state  house,  and  he  asked  me  if  I  was  going 
up  to  sign  the  contract,  and  I  told  him  I  was.  He  said,  "Your 
name  is  already  signed  to  it."  I  said,  "I  don't  know  whether  it  is 
or  not,"  but  I  did  not  think  it  was,  but  I  said  I  was  ready  to  sign 
it,  and  if  my  name  was  on  there  it  had  been  put  there  without  my 
authority.  The  Governor  was  very  much  wrought  up  about  my 
having  voted  to  buy  the  place,  and  made  some  pretty  rough  re- 
marks about  it  there.  I  went  on  up  to  the  Secretary  of  State's 
office,  and  I  found  Col.  Moore  up  there,  and  he  said  he  wanted  me 
to  sign  the  contract;  he  said  he  hated  to  ask  me  to  come  down 
there — to  bother  me  at  that  time  of  the  evening— but  he  wanted 
it  wound  up  and  I  had  not  signed  it  yet. 


-151- 

Q.     Was  your  name  to  it  then? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  until  I  put  it  there.  I  had  not  given  any  per- 
son any  reason  for  signing  my  name  to  it,  and  thought  perhaps  the 
Governor  had  seen  another  name  and  mistaken  it  for  mine;  but 
it  may  be  he  was  trying  to  prevent  me  from  going  up  there,  but 
I  know  nothing  about  anything  of  that  kind. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  you  consider  that  the  Governor,  in  his 
message  and  delivered  before  the  General  Assembly,  cast  an  as- 
persion upon  your  personal  and  official  character? 

A.  Well,  yes,  sir;  I  would  take  it  so,  from  the  language  of 
the  message,  that  he  did. 

•  Q.     You  feel,  then,  that  you  are  aggrieved  by  the  language  he 
used  in  that  message? 

A.     I  do;  yes  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  there  was  any  understanding  or  collus- 
ion between  the  parties,  members  of  the  board  for  the  purchase 
of  this  farm,  and  that  it  was  done  in  order  to  antagonize  the  Gov- 
ernor's wishes? 

A.     If  there  was  I  never  heard  of  anything  of  the  sort. 

Q.  Outside  of  the  statements  of  Capt.  Rice,  how  did  you 
arrive  at  the  conclusion  that  the  farm  was  worth  the  price'  asked 
for  it— the  $140,000? 

A.  By  going  to  look  at  it,  and  hearing  other  people  speak  of 
it  that  had  known  it. 

Q.  Col.  Monroe,  I  will  ask  you  if  you  now  consider  that  that 
purchase — if  you  now  state  that  that  purchase  was  for  the  best 
interest  of  the  State  at  the  present  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  certainly  do,  or  I  would  not  have  voted  for  it. 
I  would  not  have  done  it  if  I  did  not  consider  it  was  a  good  thing 
for  the  State  of  Arkansas. 

Q.  Has  anything  since  the  purchase  developed  to  change 
your  mind  in  regard  to  that? 

A.  No,  sir.  It  makes  me  proud  that  I  was  a  party  to  it. 
It  makes  me  proud  to  think  that  I  was  a  party  to  the  purchase 
of  it. 

Q.  Is  there  any  reason  further  than  you  have  stated,  why  this 
contract  was  signed  at  such  a  late  hour  on  that  evening  after  the 
board  had  adjourned? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  of  any  other  reason? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Except  the  statement  that  you  have  already  made  con- 
cerning it? 


r-   152    — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Colonel,  did  Mr.  Moore  tell  you  any- 
thing about  Mr.  Miller  wanting  this  deal  closed  that  evening  on 
account  of  Governor  Davis  threatening  to  enjoin  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

i 

Q.     He  never  told  you  about  that? 

A.     No,  sir.     I  heard  it  talked  about  on  the  street. 

Q.  You  heard  of  it  afterwards  on  the  street,  but  not  at  that 
time. 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  heard  Judge  Moore  state  that  Mr.  Miller  caine  to  him 
and  told  him  he  wanted  the  deal  wound  up  on  account  of  Governor 
Davis  threatening  to  enjoin  the  transaction? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  heard  him. 

Q.     You  had  no  information  of  that? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  knew  nothing  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Now  it  has  been — the  Chairman  asked  you  a  question  a 
while  ago  if  you  thought  your  reputation  or  character  had  been 
impugned  or  reflected  upon  by  the  Governor's  message;  do  you 
consider  that  Governor  Davis — in  other  words,  are  you  familiar 
with  the  Governor's  message  that  he  delivered? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  read  it,  and  I  have  heard  it  discussed  time  and 
again  by  a  number  of  parties. 

Q.  Did  you  discover  in  reading  that  message  any  direct 
charges  against  the  board  except  imprudence  in  this  transaction? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  never  heard  any  word  of  imprudence  mentioned. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  word  used  in  there  charging  you 
with  collusion  with  others  in  this  transaction? 

A.     There  was  one  in  there  charging  me  with  unfaithfulness. 

Q.     Did  you  know  to  what  he  referred  by  that? 

A.     No,  sir;   but  the  purchase  of  the  farm  in  a  general  way. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  it  was  from  the  fact  that  you  had  not 
taken  time  to  investigate  it  thoroughly? 

A.  I  can't  state  exactly  the  words  in  the  message.  I  think 
in  about  'two  or  three  places  in  his  message  was  matter  about  the 
convict  farm  purchase. 

Q.  I  believe  you  stated  that  you  signed  the  contract  after 
night? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  did  not. 
Q.     Along  about  night? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  about  dusk.  I  had  not  had  my  supper.  About — 
well  after  5  o'clock. 

Q.     You    came   from    home    down   town   about   sundown? 


—  153  — 

A.     Yes,  sir.     Mr.  Cook  can.e  after  me  in  his  buggy. 

Q.     At  the  solicitation  of  Mr.  Moore? 

A.     I  don't  know  at  whose  solicitation. 

Q.     Did  Mr.  Moore  come  after  you  or  send? 

A.  No,  sir;  Mr.  Cook  came  after  me  in  his  buggy,  and  when 
I  got  to  there  Mr.  Moore  was  in  the  Secretary  of  State's  office — 
he  was  there  when  I  got  there. 

Q.  Can  you  assign  any  reason  ^why  this  contract  was  not 
signed  by  the  board  at  the  time  of  the  meeting — before  the  next 
morning? 

A.  I  know  only  from  what  I  have  heard.  I  have  heard  it 
testified  to  here  that  they  heard  that  the  Governor  had  said  he 
was  going  to  use  every  effort  he  could  to  thwart  the  sale,  and 
prevent  the  consummation  of  it.  I  don't  know  of  any  reason  for  it 
though.  I  did  not  think  about  signing  it  at  all. 

Q.  I  believe  there  is  language  in  the  message  about  to  this 
effect,  that  there  was  undue  haste  in  making  or  closing  up  this 
transaction? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  this  connection  I  wish  to  ask  you  about  the  time  you 
spent  in  inspecting  or  examining  this  farm? 

A.  1  believe  I  have  stated  that  already  in  my  statement. 
That  we  went  from  Varner  about  2  o'clock  and  we  passed  through 
a  portion  of  it  going  over  there — until  about  5  o'clock — that  was 
three  hours  maybe  coming  up  from  Varner  to  the  home  place,  up 
on  the  river — in  going  over  from  Varner  to  the  .home  place  we 
passed  through  a  great  deal  of  the  cultivated  farm.  We  rode 
around  through  the  cultivated  portion  of  it. 

Q.     What  time  did  you  spend  on  the  farm? 

A.  I  will  say  from  3  o'clock  on  one  day  until  about  the  same 
time  the  next  day,  when  we  started  back  to  Varner. 

Q.     Then  you  were  about  a  day  on  the  premises? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  ypu  had  been  purchasing  a  farm  of  that  magnitude — 
making  the  purchase  for  yourself — would  you  have  purchased  it 
upon  that  investigation? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  should  have  taken  more  time  in  inspecting  it, 
but  there  were  others  with  me  also  inspecting  it.  I  did  not  take 
as  much  time  as  I  would  if  I  had  been  going  to  buy  it  for  myself. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  You  have  been  asked  concerning  what 
you  know  of  the  Governor's  message  making  charges  against  the 
other  four  members  of  the  board,  I  will  ask  you  if  you  do  not 
know  that  the  Governor  says  in  his  message  that  the  members 


—  154  — 

of  the  Penitentiary  Board,  other  than  himself,  had  been  guilty  of 
such  conduct  as  to  deserve  the  censure  and  condemnation  of  the 
people  of  this  state  on  account  of  their  misconduct  in  their  official 
duties? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  Governor  in  his  message  also  said  that  the  place  was 
covered  with  lagoons  and  wet  places  and  miasma,  and  it  was  a 
death  trap? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  said  that,  but  I  do  not  think  he  knew  what 
he  was  saying,  only  from  hearsay,  for  I  have  heard  that  he  never 
saw  that  place  in  his  life. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  the  Governor  in  his  message 
charges  the  other  four  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  as  de- 
serving the  censure  and  condemnation  of  the  people  of  this  state? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  is  that  the  portion  of  the  message  that  you  consider 
as  reflecting  upon  your  personal  and  official  character? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Point  out  the  language  that  you  state 
there  that  is  in  that  message? 

A.  I  can't  point  it  out  now,  Mr.  Whitley.  I  couldn't  read  it  if 
I  had  it  before  me  by  this  light. 

(Mr.  Whitley  here  rises  and  says:  I  want  to  state  right  here, 
gentlemen,  that  I  am  honest  in  this  matter,  and  that  I  have  read 
the  message  and  I  have  no  recollection  of  ever  seeing  any  such 
language  as  that.) 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  Colonel,  do  you  know  anything  about 
the  sale  of  that  cotton? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  don't  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  Or  the  cause  of  its  being  sold  just  prior  to  the  purchase 
of  this  farm? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Colonel  Monroe,  you  investigated  the 
Altheimer  farm  also,  did  you  not? 

A.     I  rode  over  that  about  three  or  four  hours  one  day. 

Q.  In  company  with  Governor  Davis,  Judge  Hill  and  Mr. 
Crockett? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Was  that  the  only  inspection  that  you  ever  gave  to  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  except  in  riding  over  it  on  the  cars. 

Q     Was  that  the  only  inspection  that  we  ever  gave  to  it? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  they  have  ever  gone  over  it  before 
or  since. 


—  155  — 

Q.  That  was  the  only  inspection  that  you  made?  And  then  as 
a  member  of  the  board? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  move  to  buy  the  Altheimer  farm  on 
that  inspection  in  board  meeting  or  not? 

A.  I  don't  know  if  he  urged  it  on  that  inspection,  Colonel,  but 
he  wanted  to  buy  the  Altheimer  farm. 

Q.     If  he  ever  made  any  other  inspection  you  did  not  know  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    That  did  not  embrace  over  three  or  four  hours? 

A.  No,  sir.  We  got  down  there  and  we  got  off  the  train  and 
started  out  and  rode  through  the  upper  end  of  the  farm,  from 
that  station  until  we  got  around  to  what  they  call  Hay  ward 
station. 

Q.     Didn't  we  stop  on  the  way  to  take  dinner? 

A.  No,  sir;  we  stopped  down  at  Hay  ward  and  we  had  break- 
fast down  at  Porto  Rico  they  call  it — it  is  away  down  in  the  woods 
there. 

Q.     Do  you  recollect  when  we  were  voting  upon  it? 

A.     I  don't  just  remember  that  meeting,   Colonel. 

Q.  You  don't  recall  the  meeting,  but  you  remember  about 
what  happened? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  the  Governor's  course  towards  the  members 
of  the  board  who  voted  against  the  purchase  of  the  Altheimer 
farm? 

A.  I  don't  just  remember  the  language,  but  he  seemed  to  be 
indignant  against  them*  for  not  joining  him  in  the  purchase  of  it. 
He  said  he  had  set  his  heart  on  that  place,  and  thought  that  it  would 
make  an  ideal  convict  farm,  and  such  as  that. 

Q.     That  was  during  your  first  term  of  office,  wasnt'  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  now,  about  the  time  that  you  were  a  candidate  for  a 
second  term  did  he  say  anything  to  you  about  the  purchase  of 
that  Altheimer  farm,  make  any  threat  or  offer  to  you  in  that 
event? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 
Q.     What  was  it? 

A.  Oh,  he  just  told  me  or  intimated  to  me  to  join  him  and 
Mr.  Crockett  in  the  purchase  of  that  farm.  I  don't  remember  the 
language  that  he  used,  but  it  is  in  the  contract.  At  that  time  I 
was  sick,  and  was  down  at  home  for  perhaps  three  weeks.  I  sup- 
pose that  is  what  you  are  driving  at,  Colonel? 


—  156  — 

Q.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  it? 

A.  I  was  at  my  home  perhaps  three  weeks  sick,  and  while 
there  I  went  up  to  town,  to  Magnolia,  perhaps  three  times  dur- 
ing the  whole  time  I  was  there.  Some  people  wrote  the  Governor 
a  letter  stating  that  I  was  down  there  working  against  him — 
against  Governor  Davis — that  was  when  he  was  running  for  his 
second  term.  Well,  when  I  got  back  the  Governor  had  sworn  ven- 
geance against  me,  and  had  my  official  associates  here  all  torn  up. 
Now  as  to  that  letter  that  was  written  to  him,  I  did  not  know 
anything  about  it.  The  Governor  sent  to  me  an  obligation  that  I 
would  join  him  in  the  purchase  of  any  farm  that  he  and  Crockett 
might  recommend,  provided  he  would  not  put  out  any  opposition 
to  me  for  a  second  term.  He  wanted  me  to  sign  an  obligation  of 
that  kind.  I  did  not  do  it.  He  sent  down  to  me  that  obligation 
by  my  office  deputy,  Mr.  Colquitt,  who  had  been  with  me  and  a 
friend  of  mine  for  thirty  years.  I  was  not  able  to  get  out  and 
make  a  campaign  and  did  not  have  the  money  to  pay  the  expenses 
that  would  be  necessary,  and  so  I  read  the  obligation  over  and 
erased  a  part  of  it  and  made  some  interlineations  before  I  would 
sign  it,  and  I  put  in  the  obligation  by  interlineation,  "there  being 
no  particular  farm  in  view,"  and  I  erased  that  part  in  reference 
to  his  bringing  out  opposition  to  me.  I  have  a  copy  of  it  now  and 
he  has  a  copy  of  it,  I  reckon,  unless  he  has  destroyed  it. 

Q.     You  each  had  a  copy  of  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  pass  it  in  to  the  committee  indicating 
what  points  you  interlined? 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crockett)  Captain  Monroe,  do  you  know  whether 
I  was  a  party  to  that  transaction? 

A.  You  had  nothing  to  4do  with  it.  You  was  not  up  there 
at  all. 

(Chairman  Merriman  here  reads  the  obligation  aloud,  in  the 
presence  of  the  committee,  which  is  as  follows,  to-wit:) 

"I,  T.  C.  Monroe,  Auditor  of  State,  hereby  state  that  any  inti- 
mation that  I  have  been  opposing  Jeff  Davis  for  re-election  to  the 
office  of  Governor,  is  absolutely  without  foundation,  and  any  state- 
ment that  I  have  worked  against  him  in  my  county,  or  am  doing 
so,  is  also  without  foundation"— the  following  is  by  interlineation— 
"to  the  best  of  my  recollection  and  beliefs."  Then  comes  more  of 
the  letter  as  follows:  "I  believe  that  he  will  carry  my  county  by 
a  large  majority,  and  if  I  can  do  anything  to  assist  him  in  carrying 
it,  it  will  be  a  pleasure  to  me  to  do  so,  and  I  hereby  agree" — then 
follows  this  sentence  struck  out,  "in  consideration  that  Jeff  Davis 


will  not  bring  out  opposition  against  me  for  Auditor" — and  then 
comes  more  of  the  letter  as  follows:  "That  I  will  support  any 
legitimate  policy  of  his,  and  have  absolute  harmony,  so  far  as  I 
am  concerned,  on  the  Penitentiary  Board;  and  I  hereby  agree  as 
soon  as  the  primary  election  is  over  to  vote  to  buy  any  farm  for 
the  use  of  state  convicts  that  he  and  J.  W,  Crockett,  Secretary  of 
State,  may  agree  upon."  Then  comes  the  following  sentence  to 
the  period,  interlined,  to-wit:  "There  being  now  no  particular 
farm  in  view."  And  then  the  rest  of  the  communication:  "Said 
purchase  to  be  made  as  soon  after  the  primary  election  as  in 
the  judgment  of  any  two  of  us  (that  is,  Crockett,  Davis  and  myself) 
it  may  be  expedient. 

"T.  C.   MONROE, 

"State  Auditor." 

Q.     Has  the  Governor  a  copy  of  that  too? 

A.  I  suppose  he  has,  he  had  two  copies  that  I  signed,  and  T 
kept  one  and  Mr.  Colquitt  took  one  back  to  him. 

Q.     Did  Mr.  Crockett  have  anything  at  all  to  do  with  that? 

A.     No,  sir;  he  was  not  present  at  all. 

Q.  Had  you  at  that  time  or  not  discovered  that  Mr.  Crockett 
had  changed  his  mind  about  that  farm  and  that  if  was  not  suitable? 

A.     At  that  time  I  did  not  know  that  he  had,  Colonel. 

Q.     But  you  did  find  out  soon  afterwards? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  found  out  later  on.  Mr.  Crockett  told  me  that 
he  had  noticed  the  crops  growing  on  that  farm  on  passing  through 
it  on  his  visits  to  his  home  in  Arkansas  County  and  that  it  was 
wet,  and  he  did  not  believe  he  could  vote  to  purchase  that  farm  for 
a  convict  farm. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  the  accretions  on  that  land,  Captain  Mon- 
roe, the  Cummins  place? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Are  they  sandbars  or  high  land  covered  with  large  timber? 

A.  Covered  with  good  timber,  high  ground.  Timber  on  it 
three  feet  thick.  There  was  quite  a  large  tract  that  had  been 
deadened  ^nd  ready  to  cultivate. 

Q.  How  much  would  you  judge  the  accretions  to  amount  to? 
That  cottonwood  tract? 

A.  I  don't  know  that,  Colonel,  I  can't  tell — about  two  thousand 
acres  of  accretions  though. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  The  question  I  want  to  ask  Mr.  Monroe 
is  whether  you  have  any  writing  or  communication  from  Governor 
Davis  more  than  that  instrument  to  show  whether  Governor  Davis 
had  required  that  agreement  of  you? 


—  158  - 

A.     No  writing;    no,   sir. 

Q.  Now  I  will  ask  you  if  Governor  Davis'  name  appears  to  that 
document? 

A.     It  is  not  signed  to  it;    no,  sir. 

Q.  Now  as  I  understand,  Colonel  Monroe,  that  you  executed 
that  agreement  and  Governor  Davis  has  a  copy  of  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     I  did  not  give  it  to  him;  I  sent  it  to  him. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  I  want  to  ask,  Colonel  Monroe,  why 
you  signed  this  instrument? 

A.  Because  the  Governor  had  threatened  to  put  out  opposition 
to  me,  Mr.  Holland,  and  I  was  in  no  condition  financially  or  physic- 
ally to  enter  into  a  campaign  of  the  State  and  thought  by  signing 
that  agreement  of  that  kind — with  the  interlineations  and  correc- 
tions as  I  have  made  them  in  it — it  would  keep  me  from  having 
to  campaign  the  State  and  save  me  the  expense  and  worry  that 
I  would  be  at,  and  I  did  it  for  that,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Governor  Davis  did  not  or  had  not 
started  to  put  out  a  candidate  against  you,  had  he? 

A.  No,  sir.  But  I  did  not  know  but  what  he  would,  for  he  was 
talking  about  it.  j^ow  in  connection  with  that,  I  want  to  make  a 
statement  that  I  feel  in  justice  to  myself.  If  you  remember  now 
that  in  this  agreement  it  is  stated  that  as  soon  after  the  primary 
was  over  that  I  should  join  in  he  purchase  of  a  convict  farm;  that 
was  the  language  of  this  instrument  or  a  clause  in  it,  and  I  do  not 
remember  hearing  any  further  talk  about  •  it  until  after  the  cam- 
paign and  the  primary  was  over,  Governor  Davis  called  me  to  his 
office.  I  was  down  in  my  office  and  he  sent  for  me  and  I  went  at 
any  rate,  and  he  asked  me  if  I  was  going  to  join  him  in  the  pur- 
chase of  the  Altheimer  farm;  that  if  I  would  he  would  promise  to 
drain  it,  or  open  it  up  so  that  it  would  be  drained.  I  told  him  I 
objected  to  purchasing  the  Altheimer  farm  because  it  was  too  dry 
in  dry  weather  and  too  wet  in  wet  weather,  and  not  sufficient 
drainage  or  land  for  a  convict  farm,  and  that  I  did  not  think  it 
was  a  proper  place,  and  I  told  the  Governor  I  was  unable  to  do  it; 
that  I  could  not  join  with  him  in  the  purchase  of  that  farm.  The 
Governor  became  angry  and  said  we  had  gone  against  him  and  he 
threatened  to  convene  the  legislature  to  purchase  a  farm,  and  said 
that  if  he  did,  the  burden  of  it  would  lay  upon  me — he  threatened 
me  with  convening  the  legislature  to  purchase  a  farm  and  said 
the  burden  would  be  upon  me.  Well,  I  told  him  if  that  was  so  the 
burden  would  have  to  fall  there,  that  I  could  not  join  him  in  the 
purchase  of  that  place.  Since  that  time  the  Governor  and  I — 


—  159  — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Futrell,  interrupting)  Colonel,  how  long  before  the 
purchase  of  this  farm  was  this  coton  sold,  do  you  know? 

A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  the 
sale  of  the  cotton,  Mr.  Futrell. 

Q.     When  did  the  Financial  Agent  report  the  sale? 

A.  If  he  ever  reported  it  at  all  it  was  in  the  November  sales, 
and  his  vouchers  for  November,  perhaps,  will  show  it — the  Novem- 
ber account. 

Q.     How  much  bond  is  the  Financial  Agent  under? 

A.     His  bond  is  $40,000. 

Q.     How  much  money  is  he  allowed  to  retain  at  any  one  time? 

A.  He  is  not  allowed  to  retain  at  the  end  of  any  month  any 
to  exceed  one-half  of  the  amount  of  his  bond.  That  is  the  law', 
I  think. 

Q.  Well,  did  he  turn  over  one-half  of  the  amount  he  had  in 
his  hands,  or  did  he  turn  over  at  the  end  of  the  month  what  he 
had  left  in  his  hands? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  Does  not  the  statute  say  that  he  shall  not  be  allowed  to 
retain  over  one-half  of  the  amount  of  his  bond? 

A.  Perhaps  that  is  the  language  of  the  statute,  I  don't 
remember. 

Q.  Now  at  the  time  of  the  purchase  of  this  farm  you  knew  that 
he  had  sold  this  cotton,  didn't  you? 

A.  Well,  I  had  been  informed  that  he  had  made  a  sale  of  the 
cotton. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  What  season  of  the  year  was  it  that 
you  went  to  visit  that  Cummins  place? 

A.     It  was  in  November. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  whether  it  was  very  wet  or  dry? 

A.  Well,  it  had  rained— it  was  tolerably  wet  then;  not  bad,  but 
it  was  wet. 

Q.  Was  the  ground  very  soggy  or  wet,  do  you  remember  about 
that,  on  this  farm? 

A.     No,  sir;  not  particularly  so. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  much  attention  to  the  levee  portion  of  the 
farm? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  right  smart,  went  along  the  levee  from  the  home 
place  down  on  our  return  to  Varner. 

Q.     How  far? 

A.     Went  down  it  two  or  three  miles. 

Q.     The  cultivated  portion  of  the  farm  mostly? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  160  — 

Q.  Do  you  know  about  how  much  that  farm,  the  estimated 
value  of  that  farm,  aggregated,  previous  estimates  and  assessments? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not.     I — 

Q.     Do  you  know  what  the  assessed  value  of  it  is  per  year? 
.    A.     No,    sir;    I    never     heard     anything     about    what     it    was 
assessed  at.     I  never  have  heard  about  that  to  this  day. 

MR.  CROCKETT  here  comes  forward  and,  on  recall,  testifies  as 
follows : 

This  is  something  that  I  call  a  personal  privilege  in  this  matter 
that  has  come  up  about  this  agreement  between  Colonel  Monroe 
and  Governor  Davis.  I  want  to  say  that  I  never  heard  anything 
about  this  matter  or  the  agreement  that  was  made  between  Gov- 
ernor Davis  and  Colonel  Monroe.  Governor  Davis  called  me  into 
his  office  one  day  and  handed  me  a  paper — this  agreement — and 
asked  me  to  read  this  agreement  between  he  and  Colonel  Monroe, 
and  I  read  it.  I  was  so  outraged — I  felt  so  outraged  at  the  matter 
that  I  said  to  Governor  JJavis,  I  wouldn't  have  asked  that  old  man 
to  sign  that  for  my  right  arm,  and  I  would  not  have  signed  it  myself 
for  my  life;  that  is  how  I  came  to  know  about  that  agreement,  and 
I  want  the  committee  to  understand  that  I  never  knew  anything 
about  it  until  that  time.  I  didn't  know  anything  about  the  matter 
at  all, 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  This  agreement  between  Governor  Davis 
and  Colonel  Monroe  states  that  he  was  to  join  with  you  and  the 
Governor  in  the  purchase  of  a  farm? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  ever  tell  you  about  it? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  did  not.  ;  There  was  no  such  understanding  so 
far  as  I  was  concerned. 

Adjourned  to  7:30  p.  m.,  February  27,  1903. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Means  Committee 


ON 

t 


Friday,  February  27, 
1903 


Testimony— 6 


INDEX. 

CAPTAIN   MONROE. 
M.  D.  L.  COOK. 


—  163  — 

HON.  T.  C.  MONROE,  being  re  called,  on  oath  testifies  as  fol- 
lows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Captain,  at  the  time  of  the  purchase 
of  this  farm  the  penitentiary  was  working  two  separate  .farms — 
renting  them — cultivating  them,  were  they  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  farms  were  they? 

A.    The  Beakley  and  the  Little  farms. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  long  they  had  been  renting  them? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not  know  how  long  they  had  been  working 
them. 

Q.  Were  the  contracts  renewed  and  in  existence  when  the  pres- 
ent board  was  organized  or  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  know  how  long  they  had  been  working  those 
farms? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    Which  farms  did  you  say  they  were? 

A.  The  Beakley  farm  in  Lonoke  county,  and  the  Little  farm 
in  Lincoln  county. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  rent  we  paid  annually  for  these  two 
farms? 

A.  I  do  not  know  the  rent  price,  General,  but  it  was  estimated 
by  our  board  from  $15,000  to  $18,000  a  year  annually;  I  think  that 
was  what  the  crops  would  amount  to  that  went  for  the  rent. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  had  any  influence  on  the  mem- 
bers of  the  board — to  make  them  want  to  purchase  this  farm? 

A.  It  certainly  did  with  me,  General.  I  had  been  paying  some 
attention  to  the  management  of  the  penitentiary  for  ten  years.  I 
had  been  in  the*  Auditor's  office  for  eight  years  before  I  was  elected 
Auditor  myself,  and  I  was  elected — this  makes  me  four  years,  and 
before  I  had  arrived  at  the  head  of  that  department  and  an  active 
member  of  the  board  I  had  argued  the  purchase  of  a  farm,  and  I 
had  even  talked  with  my  predecessor,  Mr.  Sloan,  about  the  propriety 
of  purchasing  a  farm  with  the  rents  that  we  were  paying  to  some 
one  else,  that  we  could  buy  a  farm  and  pay  for  it  in  a  little  while, 
and  the  convict  farm  would  establish  a  source  of  revenue  for  the 
State.  And  that  certainly  had  quite  an  influence  with  me. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  was  talk  among  the  members  of 
the  board? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  quite  often. 


_  164  ~ 

Q.  Do  you  remember  about  one  of  these  tenants  insisting  wn 
selling  his  part  in  the  crop  to  the  round  lap  bale — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  do  you  recall  that  we  had  to  pass  a  resolution  directing 
the  superintendent  to  bale  them  in  square  bales? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  involved  a  great  deal  of  time  and  labor  in  di- 
viding up  the  cotton  in  the  seed  and  so  there  was  a  resolution 
passed  there  authorizing  the  superintendent  to  have  the  entire  crop 
of  that  farm  ginned  and  have  the  cotton  put  in  the  square  bales. 

M.  D.  L.  COOK,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  tes- 
tifies as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  What,  if  any,  position  do  you  hold  in 
this  State? 

A.  I  am  the  Financial  and  Purchasing  Agent  of  the  State  Pen- 
itentiary. 

Q.  As  such  agent,  did  you  sell  some  cotton  just  previous  to  or 
about  the  time  of  the  cash  payment  on  this  farm? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    When  did  you  sell  that  cotton? 

A.    On  the  18th. 

Q.     Of  what? 

A.     November. 

Q.    On  the  18th  of  November? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Was  it  sold  by  an  order  of  the  board? 

A.  Not  by  an  order  of  the  board,  no,  sir.  I  went  to  each  mem- 
ber of  the  board  and  asked  them  what  they  thought  about  my  sell- 
ing it.  The  price  was — there  was  lots  of  cotton  coming  in,  and 
they  all  advised  me  to  do  as  I  thought  best,  and  I  did  the  best  1 
could  with  it. 

Q.    How  many  bales  did  you  sell? 

A.     About  eight  hundred. 

Q.     How  much  did  you  get  a  pound  for  it? 

A.     Sold  for  seven  and  five  sixteenths. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  the  net  proceeds? 

A.    It  was  about  $30,500  or  $30,600.      Right  at  that. 

Q,     What  time  in  the  day  did  you  make  that  sale? 

A.    Why,  I  think  it  was  late  in  the  afternoon. 

Q.    Wrhat  do  you  mean  by  late — what  hour? 

A.     Between  five  and  six  o'clock. 

Q.     What  did  you  do  with  the  proceeds  of  that 


—  160  — 

A.  I  paid  $30,000  of  that  on  the  purchase  price  of  the  convict 
farm. 

Q.    When  did  you  pay  it? 

A.     On  the  21st  of  November. 

Q.     You  sold  it  on  the  18th? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    What  time  did  you  make  this  payment  on  the  farm? 

A.    I  presume  about — between  six  and  seven  o'clock. 

Q.     To  whom  did  you  pay  it? 

A.     To  Mr.  Miller. 

Q.    Who  is  Mr.  Miller? 

A.  He  was  the  son-in-law  of  Colonel  Urquhart,  the  gentleman 
that  owned  the  plantation;  his  agent. 

Q.  And  Colonel  Urquhart  was  the  party  from  whom  the  board 
purchased  the  farm? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  what  did  that  payment  consist — what  kind  of  money 
was  it? 

A.    Consisted,  of  a  check  made  payable  to  my  order  to  him. 

Q.     On  what  bank? 

A.     The  German  National. 

Q.  How  came  you  to  make  that  payment — had  you  received 
any  instructions  from  anybody? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Who  notified  you? 

A.  I  had  been  out  driving  in  my  buggy  when  I  got  my  first 
notice.  I  had  stopped  at  Second  and  Louisiana  and  Judge  Hill  came 
along  and  said,  do  you  know  that  the  State  has  a  farm? 

Q.     Who  said  that? 

A.     Judge  Hill. 

Q.    What  was  his  official  position? 

A.  He  was  Commissioner  of  Mines  and  Manufactures — Agri- 
culture. I  told  him  no;  and  he  said,  we  have  bought  a  farm — the 
State  owns  a  farm,  and  so  I  started  on  up  here  to  see  about  it.  So 
I  came  on  up  to  Colonel  Murphy's  office  and  asked  him  about  it,  and 
he  said  yes,  and  that  the  board  had  made  an  order  directing  the 
financial  agent  to  make  the  cash  payment. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before  the  time  you  turned  the  money 
over? 

A.    Probably  an  ho  ir,  or  an  hour  and  a  half,  maybe. 

Q.     Did  you  know   while  you  were  in  the  Attorney  General's 


—  166  — 

office  that  you  were  expected,  under  the  order  of  the  board,  to  make 
that  payment? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  do  you  say  about  that? 

A.  He  told  me  that  an  order  was  made  by  the  board.  I  was 
asking  him  some  about  it.  Well,  I  came  down  from  Mr.  Murphy's 
office  andyMr.  Miller  came  to  me — 

Q.     Where  and  when  did  you  meet  Mr.  Miller? 
A.     Right  here  in  the  State  House  yard. 

Q.  Well,  tell  the  committee  what  conversation  you  had  with 
Mr.  Miller? 

A.  He  wanted  me  to  make  the  cash  payment.  I  told  him  that 
the  members  of  the  board,  or  a  majority  of  the  board,  would  have 
to  sign  up  the  contract  and  get  Colonel  Urquhart  to  acknowledge  it 
and  he  would  have  to  furnish  me  a  receipt. 

Q.     Well,  what  did  he  do — tell  us  about  the  transaction? 

A.  He  said  he  would  go  and  get  a  receipt.  I  found  out — some 
one  said  that  Colonel  Monroe  had  not  signed  the  contract  yet; 
well,  I  didn't  want  to  pay  over  any  money  without  the  contract  be- 
ing signed  by  the  president  of  the  board,  and,  to  avoid  considerable 
delay,  I  got  in  my  buggy  and  drove  out  to  where  Captain  Monroe 
was  at  and  told  him  that  Mr.  Miller  wanted  his  money  and  I  had 
agreed  to  pay  it  to  him,  provided  he  would  furnish  me  a  receipt, 
and  that  the  other  three  members  of  the  board  had  signed  the  con- 
tract and  I  understood  they  wanted  the  chairman  of  the  board  to 
sign  it,  too.  I  told  him  that  I  had  agreed  to  pay  Mr.  Miller,  pro- 
vided he  would  sign  the  contract.  He  said  he  had  no  prejudice  to 
signing  it,  and  would  have  signed  it  if  he  had  thought  of  it,  and 
that  he  would  sign  it.  I  told  him  to  get  in  my  buggy  and  come  on 
down,  and  he  did -so. 

Q.  Well,  now,  at  the  time  you  turned  the  money  over  to  Mr. 
Miller,  had  the  contract  been  signed  up? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     By  the  board,  and  had  Urquhart  signed  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  was  Mr.  Miller  when  you  turned  the  check  over  to 
him? 

A.     In  the  Secretary  of  State's  office. 

Q.     Was  there  anybody  else  present  besides  you  and  Miller? 

A.  Captain  Monroe  and  Colonel  Moore  and  Mr.  Miller  and  Mr. 
Crockett;  they  was  all  standing  there. 


—  167  — 

Q.     Captain  Monroe  was  a  member  of  the  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir — chairman  of  the  board. 

Q.     And  this  money  was  turned  over  in  their  presence? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     To  whom  did  you  sell  this  cotton? 

A.     To  the  George  Taylor  Commission  Company. 

Q.     Did  you  ascertain  the  market  before  selling? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  worked  on  the  proposition  all  day  long,  Mr.  Moore 
and  myself  did. 

Q.  Went  around  to  the  different  purchasers — different  cotton 
buyers? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  all  bid  on  it — four  or  five  persons — and  the  men 
you  sold  to  was  the  highest  price  that  you  could  get  for  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  at  the  time  you  made  the  sale  of  this  cotton  I  will 
ask  you  if  it  was  sold  for  the  express  purpose  of  making  a  payment 
on  this  convict  farm,  or  did  you  know  anything  about  that  affair? 

A.  I  didn't  know  anything  about  the  purchase  of  the  farm 
then.  I  did  not  sell  it  for  that  purpose  at  all.  We  had  been  getting 
ready  to  sell  it  for  a  couple  of  weeks.  The  cotton  was  scattered 
around  at  different  places;  had  part  of  it  in  the  yard  and  part  of 
it  was  at  the  farms.  I  had  a  conversation  with  these  gentlemen 
about  ten  days  or  two  weeks  before  the  sale  was  made  about  sell- 
ing it. 

Q.     How  did  you  happen  to  sell  it  at  this  particular  time? 

A.  I  sold  it  when  I  got  it  up  in  such  a  way  that  I  could  present 
the  samples — brought  in  the  samples  as  I  always  did  and  after- 
wards shipped  the  cotton. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  you  got  the  consent  and  permission  some 
time  before  that  then  for  the  sale  of  that  cotton? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  that  is  the  reason  you  made  the  sale  of  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Then  I  laid  out  the  samples  out  there  in  the  room 
so  that  the  bidders  could  come  in  and  look  at  them,  and  at  that 
time  I  come  down  town  and  the  market  was  on  a  little  rise  and  I 
thought  it  time  to  make  a  sale.  The  market  had  been  about  twenty 
points  lower  than  it  was  when  I  sold. 

Q.  You  made  that  sale  on  a  rise  of  about  twenty  points  on  the 
market  price? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  168  — 
i 

Q.  What  had  been  the  condition  of  the  market  just  previous  to 
that? 

A.     It  had  been  on  the  decline  for, some  time. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  the  market  immediately  after 
the  sale,  if  you  remember? 

A.  For  a  few  days  it  was  about  the  same,  then  the  bad  weather 
started  in — the  rains  begun,  and  cotton  come  in  slow;  in  fact,  very 
little  come  in,  and  the  market  began  to  rise  right  along,  and  then 
we  had  no  weather  to  speak  of,  and  have  not  had  since. 

Q.  It  has  been  suggested  that  if  you  had  held  that  cotton  one 
week  longer  that  the  State  would  have  made  $1,500  more  out  of  it, 
can  you  tell  anything  about  that? 

A.  I  say  that  we  could  not  have  made  more  than  twenty-five  or 
fifty  cents  a  bale  more  by  holding  it.  It  had  been  down,  and  before 
I  made  that  sale  it  had  sold  as  low  perhaps  as  six  cents,  and  on 
down.  Cotton  was  coming  in  fast,  and  the  market  had  been  down, 
and  when  I  sold  it  had  taken  a  little  rise,  and  I  concluded  to  sell 
on  that  rise,  and  I  thought  it  was  the  better  policy  to  sell  it  on  a 
rise  than  on  a  decline  of  the  market. 

Q.  (By  General  Murphy)  Mr.  Cook,  how  long  have  you  been 
financial  agent  at  the  penitentiary? 

A.    About  three  years. 

Q.  Then  you  were  financial  agent  before  the  present  board 
came  in? 

A.    Yes,  sir.    About  fourteen  months  before  that. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  many  farms  the  board  was  running? 

A.     Two,  I  believe. 

Q.     What  two  were  they? 

A.     The  Beakley  and  the  Little. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  and  can  you  state,  what  the  annual  rentals 
it  paid  for  each  of  these  farms;  I  do  not  mean  specifical,  but  in  a 
general  way? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  can  hardly  state  that. 

Q.     Have  you  never  investigated  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    but  I  don't  remember. 

Q.     Can  you  approximate  it? 

A.     Somewhere  from  $12,000  to  $15,000  a  year, 

Q.    Upon  each  of  them? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   somewhere  in  that  neighborhood. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  the  State  or  Penitentiary  Board  had 
been  renting  them  on  these  terms? 


—  169  — 

A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not;  part  of  the  consideration  was  clearing, 
I  think. 

Q.     Clearing  up  of  the  land  for  the  use  of  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir.  • 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  many  they  cleared  up  for  the  Beak- 
ley?  , 

A.     I  suppose  about  fifteen  hundred  acres. 

Q.  Did  they  get  anything  for  clearing  it  except  the  wood  they 
got  off  of  it? 

A.     I  believe  the  contract  was  $7.50  an  acre  and  the  wood. 

Q.  What  was  the  other  contract,  the  Little  contract,  with  re- 
spect to  clearing? 

A.  The  wood,  and  leased  the  other,  worked  the  other — part 
of  it  on  the  shares.  They  cleared  the  land  for  the  use  of  it,  I  be- 
lieve, for  five  years.  I  am  not  positive  whether  it  was  for  four  or 
five  years. 

*  Q.    Do  you  know  how  much  they  cleared  up  Inhere? 

A.     Between  eight  and  nine  hundred  acres. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  then,  in  consequence  of  that,  how  much  cot- 
ton they  were  working  on  each  place,  or  can  you  get  at  it  in  any 
way;  the  State's  shares? 

A.     I  can't  state  positively. 

Q.     It  furnished  everything  and  gave  them  a  fourth,  didn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Made  from  fifteen  hundred  to  two  thousand  bales? 

A.  I  believe  the  most  was  from  one  thousand  to  twelve  hun- 
dred bales. 

Q.    And  they  got  a  fourth? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  cotton  was  worth  about  fifty  dollars  per  bale? 

A.     Forty-five  and  fifty,  seed  and  cotton. 

Q.     About  how  much  did  you  make  on  the  Little  farm? 

A.  Last  year  we  did  not  make  so  much.  I  don't  know  how 
much  was  made  -last  year.  I  haven't  figured  on  it,  Colonel. 

Q.     Don't  you  remember  how  much  you  made? 

A.  I  suppose  we  made  a  thousand  bales  up  there  last  year  be- 
fore that,  but  last  year  I  can't  say;  we  didn't  make  so  much. 

Q  Now,  with  respect  to  the  sale  of  that  cotton  that  you  made, 
when  did  you  weigh  up  the  cotton  and  get  the  money  to  make  that 
payment? 

A.     To  make  that  payment? 


—  170  — 

Q.    Yes,  sir. 

A.     Well,  I  didn't  get  it  in  money  at  all. 

Q.  When  you  sell  cotton  in  that  quantity  how  long  does  it  take 
you  to  weigh  it  up  and  get  all  in? 

A.  Balance  up  the  amount  and  get  it  weighed?  Takes  two  or 
three  weeks,  some  times. 

Q.  What  arrangements  did  you  have  with  the  purchasers  about 
payment  during  that  time? 

A.  Well,  we  have  always  been — when  we  make  a  sale  and  need 
any  money  before  it  is  all  weighed  up,  we  just  go  to  them  and  draw 
on  the  sale. 

Q.  And  they  pay  you  what  you  call  for,  when  it  is  within  a 
safe  limit  as  to  the  amount,  do  they? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  if  I  understand  you,  when  this  payment  was  made 
you  had  never  actually  received  the  money? 

A.     No,  sir;  kad  not  received  a  cent  of  it. 

Q.  And  when  was  it  that  you  got  this  check  payable  to  your 
order  which  you  paid  Miller? 

A.  I  went  down  there  and  I  think  I  got  it  about  four  o'clock. 
I  reckon  it  was  somewhere  between  four  thirty  and  five  o'c!6ck, 
on  the  21st,  after  I  learned  that  the  board  had  purchased  a  con- 
vict farm. 

Q.     It  was  after  banking  hours,  then? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  there  and  got  the  check  of  the  Cotton  Company, 
then  after  that  you  found  out  that  the  sale  had  been  made  and  that 
yo\i  had  been  directed  to  pay  it? 

A.  After  I  had  told  Mr.  Miller  that  I  would  make  the  payment 
if  he  would  have  the  contract  executed. 

Q.  Some  one  has  been  asking  about  the  payment  into  the  treas- 
ury of  the  balance  on  hand  at  the  end  of  the  month;  have  you  been 
paying  any  balance  in  there  lately? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Why  not? 

A.     I  haven't  had  any  balance  left. 

Q.  What  you  have  taken  in  has  been  required  to  pay  the  ex- 
penses and  costs  of  the  institution? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Has  the  penitentiary  now  any  funds  in 
the  State  Treasury? 


1T1  —      • 

A.     Yes,  sir;  something  over  $700. 

Q.     How  long  has  that  been  there? 

A.     About  two  or  three  months,  I  don't  remember  exactly. 

Q.  Did  you  announce  the  policy  that  you  would  not  pay  any 
more  money  into  the  state  penitentiary  fund  at  the  State  Treasury? 

A.  I  haven't  put  any  more  in  there  since  they  refused  to  let 
me  have  it  out. 

Q.  Did  you  announce  the  policy  that  you  would  not  put  any 
more  money  in* the  State  Treasury? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  did.  But  I  am  not  going  to  put  it  in 
there  and  stop  paying  the  expenses  of  the  penitentiary;  and  I  can't 
get  it  out  when  I  put  it  in  there. 

Q.  At  the  end  of  each  month  the  law  requires  you  to  turn  in 
the  balance  that  you  have  left  over  to  the  State  Treasury? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Explain  what  you  mean  by  saying  that  you  could  not  get 
it  out  of  the  State  Treasury? 

A.  Well,  Mr.  Moore,  who  is  the  clerk  out  at  the  penitentiary, 
the  commissary  clerk,  went  down  there  and  put  in  $700 — seven 
hundred  and  some  odd  dollars —  and  Colonel  Tipton  told  him,  he 
says,  you  better  not  put  that  money  in  here,  for  you  may  not  be 
able  to  get  it  out,  for  the  Governor  has  made  an  order  for  me  not 
to  pay  it  out  on  any  auditor's  warrant.  He  put  it  in  there,  thougli; 
didn't  think  anything  about  what  he  said,  and  went  right  on  to  get 
a  warrant  for  it  from  the  Auditor  on  the  Treasurer  afterwards,  and 
presented  it  to  the  Treasurer,  and  Mr.  Tipton  wouldn't  let  him  have 
the  money — refused  to  honor  the  warrant. 

Q.     (By  Col.  Murphy)     Why  did  he  refuse? 

A.     On  the  Governor's  request  for  him  not  to. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Futrell)  Does  not  the  section  of  the  statute  say 
that  no  money  shall  be  drawn  out  of  the  Treasury  except  by  a  spe- 
cial appropriation  made  by  the  Legislature? 

A.     I  don't  know  that  I  know  just  the  wording  of  the  law. 

Q.  If  Col.  Tipton  as  Treasurer  should  hold  that  money  in 
bank — the  Treasury  not  being  authorized  to  hold  it— is  there  no 
means  by  which  you  could  go  there  and  get  it  out  of  the  Treasury? 

A.     I  know  nothing  about  it;  only  when  I  went  there  after  it 
he  refused  to  pay  it.    I  didn't  have  any  balance  on  hand  at  the  time, 
or  any  time  after  that.    I  usually  collect  what  I  need  and  pay -it  out. 
The  law  requires  that  I  file  a  statement,  or  a  report,  the  first  of. 
each  month. 


17-2  — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Mr.  Cook,  have  you  examined  the  law 
regulating  or  prescribing  the  duties  of  the  purchasing  agent? 

A.     Well,  a  little;  yes  sir. 

Q.     You  are  familiar  with  the  law  prescribing  your  duties? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  don't  know  that  I  am  very  familiar  with 
it.  I  read  it  when  I  get  to  a  place  where  I  think  there  is  something 
that  I  do  not  understand. 

Q.  But  you  know  it  to  be  your  duty  to  pay  in  the  balance  in 
your  hands  into  the  Treasury  at  the  end  of  each  month? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

.     Q.     Do  you  not  know  that  the  section  prescribes  the  means  by 
which  you  should  draw  the  money  out  on  warrants? 

A.  We  followed  that;  I  did  until  we  were  shut  down  on  by  tne 
Treasurer. 

Q.  Which  did  you  consider  should  be  the  guide  to  you  and  the 
Treasurer,  the  law  prescribing  your  duties,  or  the  personal  state- 
ment or  the  Governor? 

A.  Well,  I  did  that  as  long  as  I  had  any  money.  I  paid  it  in 
as  long  as  I  had  any  money  to  pay  in.  I  didn't  carry  any  money  on 
hand — had  no  bank  account.  I  kept  no  money  on  hand  except  what 
it  took  to  run  us;  at  the  end  of  the  month  if  I  had  any  balance  I 
put  it  in  the  Treasury. 

Q.  You  have  not  put  any  money  in  the  Treasury  now  for  some 
months? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  had  to  pay  expenses,  and  so  I  paid  it  out,  and  I 
usually  try  after  the  first  of  the  month  to  pay  it  out  before  the  end 
of  the  month. 

Q.  Did  you  have  an  order  from  the  Penitentiary  Board  made 
at  the  board  meeting  authorizing  you  to  sell  this  cotton? 

A.     I  did  not,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  board  shall  make  an  order  for  these 
sales?  Don't  the  law  prescribe  that  the  board  shall  make  an  order 
for  these  sales? 

A.     I  don't  think  that  it  is. 

Q.  I  ask  you  purely  for  information,  as  it  seems  to  be  the  im- 
pression that  that  is  the  case. 

A.     I  don't  think  it  is.     I  think  the  Financial  Agent  is  power- 
less in  the  matter.    I  always  go  to  the  board  or  certain  members  of 
the  board,  for  I  am  governed  by  it,  and  see  if  they  wish  it;  and  I 
•  talked  with  the  members  of  the  board  about  this  sale  before  I  made 
it,  and  they  advised  me  to  do  the  best  I  could  with  it;  to  go  ahead. 


—  173  — 

Is  not  that  the  reason  you  go  to  the  members  of  the  board, 
because  the  law  says  they  shall  make  an  order  for  these  sales? 

A.     Well,  I  don't— 

Q.  If  that  was  not  the  law,  why  did  you  go  to  the  board  at  all, 
or  why  should  you  go  to  it? 

A.  If  it  was  not  the  law,  then  I  would  go  to  them  because  i 
am  elected  by  that  board;  and  perhaps  I  would  not  like  to  take  the 
responsibility  without  asking  the  members  of  the  board  in  regard 
to  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  there  is  no  record  of  any  order  author- 
izing you  to  sell  that  cotton? 

A.  I  don't  suppose — I  didn't  get  any  order  from  the  board  or 
at  any  board  meeting;  I  just  went  to  them  individually  and  told 
them  that  the  market  was  a  little  on  the  rise  now — it  had  been  on 
the  decline,  and  I  thought  it  was  a  good  time  to  sell  the  cotton — 
and  they  left  the  selling  of  it  to  my  judgment  in  the  matter. 

Q.     On  what  day  of  the  month  was  it  that  you  sold  that  cotton? 

A.     On  the  18th,  I  believe. 

Q.     Was  that  in  November? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     This  past  November? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  state  awhile  ago  at  what  price  you  sold  that  cot- 
fon  at? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   at  seven  and  five-sixteenths. 

Q.  Have  you  any  memorandum  or  anything  of  that  kind  to 
show  what  cotton  was  selling  for  a  week  before  that? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  believe  I  have.  It  dropped  from  the  first  of 
November  to  the  eleventh  about  forty  points,  and  from  the  eleventh 
on  to  when  I  sold  on  the  eighteenth  it  had  gained  about  twenty 
points.  I  sold  it  on  the  rise  of  the  market. 

Q.  Have  you  any  memorandum  or  record  showing  at  what  price 
cotton  sold  at  for  a  week  or  so  afterwards? 

A.  For  a  week  afterwards,  I  have  got  no  record,  but  my  recol- 
lection is  that  it  went  for  about  the  same  price  for  a  week  after- 
wards. In  all  probability  a  little  rise. 

Q.  You  haven't  got  any  record  or  memorandum  or  circular  to 
show  the  range  of  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     I  believe  that  you  stated  that  you  consulted  several  buyers  . 
about  selling  this  cotton  during  that  day  before  you  sold  it? 


A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  they  advise  you  to  sell  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     I  will  ask  if  you — 

A.  They  stated  that  it  was  a  good  time  to  sell  it;  that  the 
market  was  on  the  rise.  I  know  I  wouldn't  have  sold  on  a  declining 
market. 

Q.  No  cotton  men — or  did  any  coton  men  advise  you  not  to 
sell  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     No  one  of  them? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  having  a  conversation  with  one  of  the 
C.  C.  Burroughs  Company? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     I  wish  you  would  state  what  that  conversation  was? 

A.     He  bid  on  the  cotton. 

Q.     On  this  cotton? 

,  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  talked  to  me  two  or  three  times  during  the 
afternoon,  and  at  the  last  time  he  wouldn't  bid  any  more;  he  just 
said  to  let  the  other  fellow  have  it. 

Q.  And  he  did  not  advise  you  to  hold  that  cotton  for  a  better 
market? 

A.     No,  sir,  he  did  not. 

Q.  And  those  cotton  factors  were  very  anxious  to  buy  this  cot- 
ton, were  they? 

A.  Well,  they  were  not  so  anxious;  I  had  bids  on  it  from  sev- 
eral of  them;  four  or  five  bid  on  it. 

Q.     About  what  time  of  day  was  it  that  you  made  the  sale? 

A.  Rather  late  in  the  afternoon;  possibly  between  five  and  six 
o'clock. 

Q.  Did  any  of  these  cotton  factors  tell  you  that  if  you  did  not 
sell  them  that  cotton  that  night  that  they  would  not  bid  on  it? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that  they  did. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  having  a  conversation  with  any  of  those 
cotton  factors — cotton  men — in  which  they  told  you  that  if  you  did 
not  sell  them  the  cotton  that  night  they  would  not  buy  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     They  had  ro  such  conversation  with  you  as  that? 

'A.     No,   s;r.  ' 

Q.     I  bel'ove  you  stated  awhile  ago  that  if  you  had  held  that 


—  175- 

cotton  a  week  longer  perhaps  you  would  have  saved  the  State  from 
25  to  50  cents  a  bale? 

A.  Something  in  that  neighborhood;  I  don't  remember  ex- 
actly. No,  I  don't  believe  it  would  have  been  that  much  in  a  weefc, 
but  rather  say  two  weeks,  it  would. 

Q.  You  don't  know,  then,  just  what  you  would  have  saved  the 
State  if  you  had  held  it  for  that  matter? 

A.  No;  but  I  know  there  was  not  very  much  change  in  a  weeK 
or  ten  days. 

Q.  Was  there  any  special  or  urgent  reason  why  you  should  sell 
that  cotton  that  evening? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     None  at  all? 

A.  Nothing  pressing  me  on  that  proposition.  It  was  my  judg- 
ment in  the  matter  that  it  'was  the  time  to  sell  it,  after  advising 
with  the  board  members. 

Q.  Were  there  any  State  debts  pressing  you  to  require  you  to 
sell  it  at  that  time 

A.     There  was  not. 

Q.  Then  you  can't  offer  any  reason  why  the  sale  should  have 
been  made  at  that  time? 

A.     I  sold  it  because  I  thought  the  market  was  right  to  sell  it. 

Q.  Now,  I  will  ask  you  how  long  a  time  intervened  from  the 
time  you  made  the  sale  until  the  purchase  of  this  farm? 

A.     From  the  18th  to  the  21st. 

Q.     About  three  days. 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  notice  or  advice  uaat  this  farm  was  to 
be  purchased? 

A.     I  did*  not,  sir. 

Q.    You  did  not  know  anything  about  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  the  money  for  this  cotton,  Mr.  Cook,  when 
you  sold  it? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.    Can  you  state  why  you  did  not  receive  the  money? 

A.     I  didn't  have  it  weighed  or  have  it  counted  up  yet. 

Q.    You  didn't  have  it  weighed  up? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    What  time  did  you  receive  payment  for  the  cotton? 

A.    On  the  21st;  closed  it  about  5  o'clock  in  the  evening. 


—  176  — 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  knowledge  of  the  order  that  the  board 
had  made  on  you  to  make  that  payment — make  payment  of  that 
amount  of  money  on  that  farm  until  late  in  t'he  evening  when  Mr. 
Miller  approached  you  about  it? 

A.     Judge  Hill  told  me— 

Q.  You  did  not  know  that  the  board  had  had  a  meeting  and 
entered  an  order  authorizing  you  to  pay  over  that  $30,000  on  this 
farm  when  you  got  the  check? 

A.     I  did  not— 

Q.  You  did  not  know  at  the  time  you  got  that  money — you 
did  not  know  anything  about  the  board  having  met  that  afternoon 
at  two  o'clock? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  it  was  the  regular  meeting  day. 

Q.     Then  you  wore  present  at  the  meeting,  were  you? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Who  advised  you  of  the  board's  order  to  pay  that  money? 

A.  I  told  you  that  Judge  Hill  had  told  me  that  the  State  had  a 
farm — he  asked  me  did  I  know  that  the  State  had  a  farm,  and  1 
told  him  I  did  not;  and  he  said,  "Yes,  the  State  has  bought  a  farm; 
they  have  bought  the  Cummins  plantation,"  and  I  says,  "Well,  I 
will  go  up  and  see  about  it,"  and  I  went  to  Colonel  Murphy's  office 
and  Colonel  Murphy  told  me  it  was  bought. 

Q.     Did  Colonel  Murphy  tell  you  to  pay  that  money? 

A.  He  told  me  there  was  an  order  directing  me  to  pay  it  over. 
He  didn't  tell  me  to  pay  it  over.  He  told  me  that  there  was  an 
order  directing  me  to  pay  it  over  on  the  execution  of  the  contract 
by  Urquhart. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  to  state  who  was  present  when  you  paid  that 
money  over  and  who  you  paid  it  to? 

A.  To  W.  H.  Miller,  the  agent,of  Colonel  Urquhart,  up  in  the 
Secretary  of  State's  office. 

Q.     Who  was  present? 

A.  Well,  there  was  Mr.  Crockett  and  Colonel  John  M.  Moore, 
Mr.  Miller  and  Captain  Monroe. 

Q.     Was  Colonel  Murphy  present? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    You  paid  that  over  in  the  Secretary  of  State's  office? 

A.     Ye*    s:r. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you,  Mr.  Cook,  about  the  number  of  acres  that 
you  rented  and  worked  on  the  Beakley  and  the  Little  farms;  it  is 
a  matter  that  has  been  brought  out  by  questions  of  Colonel  Mur- 
phy; I  don't  think  they  were  shown? 


—  177  — 

A.  About  two  thousand  acres,  I  believe. 

Q.  {That  you  rented  up  there? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  nineteen  or  twenty  hundred  acres. 

Q.  How  much  on  the  Beakley  farm? 

A.  About  the  same  amount. 

Q.  Now,  then,  what  did  you  pay  rent  for  those  two  farms  a 


year 


A.  They  gave  a  fourth  of  the  crop  on  the  Beakley  place,  and 
had  a  thousand  acres  at  the  Little  place  and  had  a  lease  on  the 
other. 

Q.    You  can't  approximate  what  you  paid? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  could  have  looked  at  the  books  and  give  you  that 
information,  but  I  never  thought  about  being  called  on  for  it. 

Q.  But  you  can't  give  me  any  reason  or  state  any  reason  why 
that  deal  should  have  been  closed  up  that  night  that  you  paid  the 
money  over? 

A.  Mr.  Miller  stated  to  me  that  the  Governor  was  threatening 
to  enjoin  him  in  the  matter,  or  enjoin  the  sale;  and  Mr.  Miller  told 
me  in  this  connection  that  the  board  had  made  an  order  authorizing 
me  to  pay  the  $30,000,  and  I  went  up  then  to  see  Colonel  Murphy 
about  it  and  he  said  the  board  had  made  such  an  order  directing 
me  to  pay  it  on  the  execution  of  the  contract  by  Colonel  Urquhart. 

Q.    So  Mr.  Miller  just  hunted  you  up? 

A.    I  met  Mr.  Miller  as  I  was  coming  in  the  yard  there. 

Q.    Was  that  contract  signed  up  at  that  time? 

A.  He  said  that  three  members  of  the  board  had  signed  it  but 
that  Captain  Monroe  had  not  signed  it. 

Q.  Then  you  refused  to  pay  the  money  over  until  Monroe  had 
signed  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  you  present  when  Captain  Monroe  signed  up  the  con- 
tract? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    You  don't  know  what  time  he  signed  it  up? 

A.     I  suppose  not  later  than  six  o'clock,  probably. 

Q.    That  was  on  November  21st? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Governor  Davis,  I  believe,  has  stated  in  his  message 
that  this  contract  was  closed  and  the  money  paid — or  this  contract 
was  signed  and  the  money  paid  over  after  night;  now  do  you  know 
whether  that  was  the  case  or  not? 


—  178  — 

A.  I  think  it  was  about  six  o'clock;  it  may  have  been  getting 
dark.  The  days  were  rather  short  along  then — getting  shorter. 

Q.  At  that  time  six  o'clock  came  after  sundown,  didn't  it — 
those  days? 

A.    I  suppose  so;  I  don't  remember  exactly. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  You  had  to  give  a  bond,  did  you  not, 
Mr.  Cook?  , 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  much  bond  did  the  law  require  of  you? 

A.     $45,000,  but  my  bondsmen  qualified  for  $155,000. 

Q.     The  law  only  requires  $45,000? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  in  a  large  transaction  like  the  sale  of 
eight  hundred  bales  of  cotton,  if  there  had  been  a  rise  in  the  cotton 
market  within  a  week  or  two  after  that  that  you  would  not  have 
been  apt  to  have  known  it? 

A.  There  was  a  slight  rise,  Judge,  as  I  stated  a  while  ago.  It 
may  have  been  twenty-five  cents  a  bale  rise  inside  of  ten  days. 

Q.  I  meant  to  say,  Mr.  Cook,  that  you  would  naturally  watch 
the  market,  whether  you  had  sold  out  or  not,  wouldn't  you? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  would,  of  course.  I  wasn't  no  weather  prophet, 
of  course,  and  the  condition  of  the  prices  I  understand  is  caused  by 
the  weather. 

Q.  A  member  of  the  committee  has  just  asked  you  why  it  was 
that  you  sold  that  cotton  at  that  hour;  you  testified  In  your  former 
examination  that  you  were  at  work  all  day  in  negotiating  that  sale? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  had  the  buyers  out  there' looking  at  the  cotton  we 
had  in  the  yard,  and  I  had  laid  out  all  the  samples  there  in  the 
office — laid  all  the  samples  out  on  the  table  and  then  i  invited  all 
the  cotton  buyers  to  come  out  and  go  over  these  samples,  and  they 
came  out  there  and  went  through  them  in  their  own  way.  They 
came  out  there  and  graded  the  cotton — looked  it  over,  and  I  'told 
them  later  that  I  was  going  to  sell  the  cotton  so  as  to  give  them 
all  a  chance  to  get  contracts  for  the  cotton,  in  order  that  I  could  get 
a  good  price  for  it. 

Q.  And  after  they  had  examined  the  cotton  you  worked  all  of 
one  day  negotiating  this  sale,  and  as  night  approached  you  got  to 
the  point  where  you  wanted  to  accept  an  offer  and  close? 

A.    Yes.  sir. 

Q.    After  all  bidders  had  an  opportunity  of  raising  their  offer — 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  never  sold  cotton  on  the  streets;  I  went  around 
to  the  offices  of  the  buyers — 


179  — 

Q.  Then  you  got  the  highest  price  that  was  offered  for  that 
cotton  after  working  all  day,  and  you  finally  closed  the  deal  late 
that  evening? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  sale  shows  in  your  report  to  the  Penitentiary  Board? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  My  reports  show  everything  I  received  and  paid 
out,  all  the  way  from  five  cents  to  thirty  thousand  dollars.  The 
vouchers  show  the  amounts  and  what  it  was  paid  for,  and  my  report 
is  filed  each  month  from  the  1st  to  the  10th. 

Q.    Was  this  sale  reported  to  the  board? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  it  receive  their  approval? 

A.    I  suppose  so;  they  never  said  they  did  not  approve  of  it. 

Q.  It  is  charged  against  you  in  the  Governor's  message,  when 
this  purchase  of  this  farm  was  made,  that  the  financial  agent  was 
hustled  up  and  that  the, $30, 000  was  paid  over  after  night;  what 
have  you  to  say  about  being  hustled  out — is  that  a  fact? 

A.     It  is  not  a  fact. 

Q.     What  you  have  stated  here  about  it  is  the  truth? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  also  alleged  by  the  Governor  in  his  message  that  a  ma- 
jority of  this  cotton  of  the  State,  750  bales  or  800  bales,  was  sold 
the  day  before  by  you  preparatory  for  the  purchase  of  this  farm, 
when  you  were  advised  not  to  sell;  is  that  true? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     What  you  have  stated  here  as  to  that  is  true? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Mr.  Cook,  you  would  not  have  paid  this 
money  over  if  Mr.  Miller  had  not  called  on  you  and  asked  you  to 
pay  it,  would  you? 

A.    I  wouldn't  have  hunted  him  up  to  pay  it — no,  sir. 

Q.  So  you  don't  know  how  much  hustling  about  he  did  do  to 
see  you  before  he  did  see  you? 

A.  I  come  up  here,  after  I  had  seen  Judge  Hill,  and  I  met  Mr. 
Miller  out  here  in  the  yard. 

Q.    And  he  asked  you  to  pay  it  that  evening? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  he  said  there  was  an  order  directing  me  to  pay  it. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  how  you  go  about  to  purchase  groceries 
and  the  like  that  is  used  for  the  penitentiary? 

(Objected  to  as  being  incompetent,  and  ruled  out.) 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  Mr.  Cook,  does  your  boolrs  show  the  num- 
ber of  pounds  of  cotton  in  this  entire  number  of  bales? 


—  180  — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  the  amount  paid  for  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Amount  received  for  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Nfw,  what  grade^  was  the  cotton  that  you  sold  as  graded  by 
these  buyers — what  grade  was  it? 

A.     Strict  middling. 

Q.    Did  you  not  sample  it? 

A.  No,  sir;  the  buyers  go  out  and  grade  it  themselves,  each 
buyer  does  his  own  grading. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Did  that  cotton  come  from  different 
farms? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  it  was  all  graded  low,  \\fxsn't  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  very  low  grade;  that  cotton  that  comes  from  Mr. 
Little's  plantation  was  a  very  low  grade. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Holland)  When  does  your  term  expire,  Mr.  Cook? 

A.     The  1st  of  April. 

Q.    Are  you  a  candidate  for  re-election? 

A.    No,  sir;   I  can't  hold  under  the  law  any  longer. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Mr.  Cook,  your  actions  in  that  matter 
was  largely  discretionary  as  to  the  sale  of  the  cotton? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  that  by  the  advice  of  the  board  and  not  by  any* 
order? 

A.  Sometimes  I  may  have  asked  them  for  an  order,  if  I  hap- 
pened to  go  up  when  it  had  a  meeting. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Before  the  message  of  the  Governor,  and 
before  the  disagreement  between  the  Governor  and  the  other  mem- 
bers of  the  board,  had  it  been  a  custom  for  you  to  look  after  the  col- 
lecting and  the  sale  of  cotton  generally? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  ever  object  to  it?  Before  he  fell  out 
and  called  the  other  members  of  the  board  disagreeable  things? 

A.  He  hadn't  been  on  there  very  long — when  he  first  came  on 
the  board  as  Governor  he  wanted  to  have  me  and  Mr.  Hogins  sell  it 
together. 

Q.     You  and  Mr.  Hogin*? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Without  an  order  of  the  board? 

A.    Oh,  yes;  we  had  an  order  of  the  board. 


—  181  — 

Q.  Has  Governor  Davis  been  familiar  with  the  custom  of  the 
financial  agent  in  looking  after  these  matters? 

A.  No,  sir;   I  think  not. 

Q.  Is  he  familiar  with  part  of  your 'custom? 

A.  I  don't  know  if  he  is  familiar  with  any  part  of  it.  He 
don't  try  to  inform  himself  about  it,  I  don't  think. 

Q.  Isn't  he  a  member  of  the  board? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Hasn't  he  the  same  rights  to  be  familiar  with  it? 

A.  Not  only  is  it  his  right  but  it  is  his  duty  under  the  law. 

Q.  Has  he  never  looked  after  it? 

A.  He  has  not — no,  sir. 

Q.  Never  has  devoted  any  time  to  it? 

A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 


TESTIMONY 

TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 

Ways    and    fleans   Committee 

ON 

Monday,  March  2, 
1903 


INDEX. 

T.   H.   HUTCHINSON. 

J.  F.  SMITH. 

R.  B.  HOGINS. 

LETTER   FROM   HON.  G.  W.   MURPHY. 


—  185  — 

T.  H.  HUTCHINSON,  on  oath  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Mr.  Hutchinson,  what  business  are  you 
in? 

A.     I  represent  the  George  Taylor  Commission  Company. 

Q.    Were  you  representing  them  here  last  November? 

A".    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  While  representing  them,  did  you  make  a  purchase  of  cot- 
ton from  the  State  of  Arkansas? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  on  the  18th  of  November. 

Q.     The  18th  of  November? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    How  many  bales  did  you  purchase? 

A.  A  little  over  eight  hundred;  I  think  it  was  eight  hundred 
and  fourteen. 

Q.    With  whom  was  the  purchase  conducted? 

A.    With  Mr.  M.  D.  L.  Cook  and  Mr.  Moore;  they  were  together. 

Q.    The  financial  agent  ar'i  the  clerk  of  the  penitentiary? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    What  did  you  give  for  that  cotton? 

A.     Seven  and  five-sixteenths. 

Q.    For  the  whole  lot? 

A.    Around,  yes,  sir,  F.  O.  B.,  Little  Rock. 

Q.    What  was  the  aggregate  sum — do  you  remember? 

A.  It  was  a  little  over  $30,000.  I  think  it  was  $30,500 — some- 
thing like  that. 

Q.     You  say  you  purchased  that  on  the  18th  of  November? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    What  hour  of  the  day  did  you  make  that  purchase? 

A.  It  was  pretty  late  in  the  afternoon  when  we  closed  the 
trade. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  figuring  upon  it,  Mr.  Hutchinson, 
from  the  time  your  attention  was  first  called  to  it  until  the  trade 
was  consummated? 

A.  I  am  thinking  there  was  about  five  hundred  bales  of  it  was 
inside  of  the  penitentiary  walls,  but  there  was  samples  there  for 
the  whole  lot  laid  out  on  the  tables.  I  had  gone  out  the  previous 
day  and  gone  through  the  cotton  and  classified  it. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  exactly  how  many  days  previous  to  the 
purchase  your  attention  was  called  to  the  fact  that  it  was  going  to 
be  sold? 


—  186  — 

A.  I  was  invited  out  there  several  days  before  the  purchase 
after  the  samples  were  out  there. 

Q.     What  do  you  mean  by  several  days? 

A.  I  suppose  some  three  or  four  days,  that  the  samples  were 
out  there  and  ready  and  that  the  cotton  was  going  to  be  offered 
soon. 

Q.  That  was  to  give  all  the  buyers,  I  suppose,  a  chance  to  ex- 
amine the  cotton? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  and  grade  the  cotton  and  place  orders  east  for, it. 

Q.  Now,  on  the  day  that  this  cotton  was  purchased  from  the 
Financial  Agent,  were  they  in  there  during  the  day  for  bids  on  the 
cotton? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  several  times  during  the  day. 

Q.  About  what  hour  in  the  afternoon  was  this  purchase  con- 
summated? 

A.    I  will  say  at  about  five  o'clock. 

Q.     It  was  before  dark? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  it  was  before  dark. 

Q.  How  did  you  grade  that  cotton — did  you  put  it  all  in  one 
grade  or  several  different  grades? 

A.  I  went  through  the  cotton;  of  course  I  did  not  class  every 
bale,  but  I  just  went  through  it  and  made  up  my  mind  what  it 
was,  just  a  general  average  of  it,  before  I  made  my  bid. 

Q.  And  you  afterwards  made  a  bid  on  the  814  bales  on  the  in- 
formation that  you  had  of  its  quality? 

A.    Yes,  sir.    The  cotton  was  of  various  grades,  you  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  other  cotton  factors  examined 
the  samples  of  this  cotton  with  a  view  of  bidding  on  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Mr.  Ad  Hamburg  of  the  Lesser  Cotton  Company 
went  out  there  with  me  the  day  I  was  out  there. 

Q.     Do  you  know  of  any  other? 

A.  I  think  there  was  another  out  there  and  went  through  it; 
there  was  different  parties  went  through  it.  We  went  out  there  so 
as  to  be  well  advised  when  it  was  sold,  for  we  understood  that  it 
was  going  to  be  sold  soon. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)  What  is  your  name? 

A.     Hutchinson — T.  H.  Hutchinson. 

Q.  Mr.  Hutchinson,  did  you  pay  for  that  cotton  on  the  day  that 
you  bought  it? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     When  did  you  pay  for  it? 

A.   J.  made  the  first  payment  on  it  on  the  21st  of  November. 

Q.     Of  how  much? 


—  187  — 

A.     $30,000. 

Q.    You  paid  $30,000  on  it  on  the  21st  of  November? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    In  cash  or  by  check? 

A.     By  check  on  the  German  National  Bank. 

Q.  Did  you  buy  that  cotton  by  sample  or  upon  examination  of 
the  bales  of  cotton? 

A.     Sample. 

Q.     How  many  bales  of  cotton  were  there  at  the  penitentiary? 

A.  I  think  there  was  five  hundred  and  four — in  that  neighbor- 
hood. 

Q.  That  is  your  recollection  that  they  had  out  there  In  the 
yard  five  hundred  and  four  bales? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Was  that  all  the  cotton  that  they  had  out  there? 

A.     I  presume  it  was. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  five  hundred  and  four  bales  was 
all  the  cotton  that  they  had  out  there? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  that;  that  is  all  they  turned 
out. 

Q.     That  was  all  they  delivered  to  you? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  at  that  time. 

Q.  How  many  bales  of  cotton  did  you  buy  from  the  financial 
agent? 

A.     I  think  it  was  eight  hundred  and  fourteen  bales. 

Q.    Where  was  the  other  bales  of  cotton? 

A.     I  understood  from  him  that  it  was  at  England  and  Conway. 

Q.  Then  the  cotton  that  was  here  was  all  that  he  had — I  mean 
the  cotton  he  had  out  at  the  penitentiary;  the  other  bales  of  cotton 
was  not  here  in  Little  Rock? 

A.  I  presume  that  was  all  and  that  the  other  cotton  was  out 
at  the  other  State  farms.  They  had  not  been  able  to  get  it  all  in  yet 

Q.     Some  of  it  was  at  Conway? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   and  some  at  England. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  that  cotton  at  England  and  Conway 
before  you  bought  it? 

A.  I  did  not  see  any  of  the  cotton  before  I  bought  it.  I  bought 
it  on  the  samples. 

Q.  Did  you  know  that  that  cotton  at  Conway  and  England  was 
all  in  the  bale  when  you  bought  it,  or  bargained  for  it? 

A.     I  did  not  know  whether  it  was  or  not.     I  have  no  idea.     1 


—  188  — 

did  not  care  whether  it  was  or  not,  you  understand.    I  did  not  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  just  how  many  bales  there  were  already  in 
the  bale  and  ready  for  the  market  when  you  bought  it? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    You  did  not  know  how  much  there  was  already  baled? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  but  what  some  of  that  cotton  was  in 
the  field  yet  and  not  gathered,  do  you  not? 

A.  No;  I  did  not  know  whether  it  was  all  gathered  or  not.  I 
understood  that  they  were  selling  the  cotton  that  they  had  out.  — s 
far  as  I  know  they  may  have  delivered  cotton  that  they  had  not 
raised;  I  did  not  know  whether  they  had  or  not,  but  I  understood 
that  they  had  other  cotton  down  there  that  was  already  picked  and 
ready  for  delivery. 

Q.  Did  you  not  know  whether  you  were  bargaining  for  cotton 
that  had  not  been  baled  or  that  was  not  gathered,  but  still  in  the 
field? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  understood  that  it  was  ready  for  delivery. 

Q.  Is  it  the  custom  for  a  company  that  buys  cotton  to  accept 
it  before  it  is  delivered  to  them  or  before  they  have  seen  it,  or  have 
a  bill  of  lading  for  it? 

A.    Most  cotton  that  we  buy  is  bought  that  way. 

Q.     Buy  it  without  having  seen  it? 

A.  I  did  not  say  we  had  not  seen  it;  of  course  we  may  not 
have  seen  the  cotton  in  the  bales,  but  we  have  the  samples  of  each 
bale  of  the  cotton. 

Q.  Is  it  your  custom  to  buy  cotton  before  you  have  seen  it  oy 
sample? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  buy  a  lot  of  cotton  just  by  the  sample,  and  it  is 
delivered  by  some  one  else,  and  without  anything  to  show  that 
these  samples  are  samples  from  the  cotton  that  you  have  bought;  is 
that  your  custom? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  custom. 

Q.  Then  do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  buy  cotton  that  you 
never  saw  and  that  that  is  your  custom? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  that  io  what  I  mean  to  say. 

Q.    Is  that  custom  prevalent  among  the  buyers  of  this  city? 

A.  It  is  the  custom  prevailing  in  every  city  that  I  have  ever 
been  in;  Memphis,  St.  Louis,  Mobile,  Fort  Smith  and  New  Orleans. 

Q.    I  believe  that  you  stated  that  you  paid  $30,000  on  this  cot- 


—  189  — 

ton  that  you  bought;  have  you  paid  any  more  on  that  cotton  since 
then? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  the  balance  was  paid  on  the  delivery  of  the  cotton. 

Q.  Now  is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  just  advanced  $30,000,  with 
the  understanding  that  the  cotton  would  be  delivered  to  you,  the 
balance  of  the  eight  hundred  and  fourteen  bales? 

A.  Well,  I  had  already  received  at  that  time  what  he  had  here, 
we  Jba.d  weighed  up  over  five  hundred  bales. 

Q.    You  had  received  over  half  the  lot? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  then  I  made  a  payment  of  $30,000  on  the  whole 
lot;  Uiat  was  the  transaction. 

Q.  Then  you  advanced  the  $30,000  before  you  had  received  the 
eight  hundred  and  fourteen  bales? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Then  after  you  received  it  you  paid  the  other  amount? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  balance? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  ^Vas  there  any  understanding  as  to  what  you  were  advanc- 
ing this  $30,000  for? 

A.    Not  unless  he  wanted  us  to  make  a  payment. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  or  did  you  understand,  what  you  were  making 
the  payment  of  that  $30,000  then  for? 

A.  I  don't  recollect  that  I  do — no,  sir.  I  don't  remember  that 
anything  was  said  about  it.  Mr.  Cook  came  down  there  and  asked 
me  for  some  money  and  I  gave  him  a  check  for  that  amount  on  the 
cotton  at  that  time.  But  if  he  said  anything  to  me  what  it  was  for 
I  did  not  think  it  worth  while  to  remember  it.  If  he  said  what  he 
was  going  to  do  with  the  money  I  do  not  remember  now  what  he 
said  about  it. 

Q.  Then  you  did  not  know  whether  this  eight  hundred  and 
fourteen  bales  was  gathered  and  ginned  in  the  bale  when  you 
bought  it  or  not? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  can't  say.  Of  course  I  understood  when  I  bought 
it  that  it  was;  that  the  cotton  that  was  being  sold  was  in  the  bale. 
I  didn't  exactly  see  the  bales;  I  saw  the  samples  of  the  bales,  and 
of  course  understood  that  it  was  ready  for  delivery. 

Q.  Well,  you  do  not  say  that  it  is  not  possible  for  a  person  to 
present  a  sample  to  you  for  cotton  that  was  not  there,  or  a  sample 
for  other  cotton  than  is  in  the  bale  they  are  selling? 

A.  I  do  not  say  that — no.  sir;  but  the  sample  is  supposed  to  be 
out  of  the  bale. 


—  190  — 

Q.  Was  it  your  understanding  that  you  was  to  buy  eight  Hun- 
dred and  fourteen  bales  of  cotton  and  advance  $30,000  on  it  and 
then  afterwards  pay  the  balance  when  the  cotton  was  delivered? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  recall  that  there  was  any  understanding  about 
it. 

Q.  When  you  advanced  this  $30,000  had  you  received  the  full 
eight  hundred  and  fourteen  bales? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  thought  the  showing  was  enough  to  warrant  it, 
though;  I  had  not — 

Q.    I  mean — state  what  you  were  going  to  state  just  now? 

A.  I  had  not  received  the  eight  hundred  and  fourteen  bales 
when  I  paid  the  $30,000. 

Q.  You  was  not  to  pay  the  balance  on  that  cotton  until  you  had 
received  the  full  eight  hundred  bales? 

A.  No;  I  just  considered  it  would  be  the  balance — difference  in 
weights.  When  I  paid  this  $30,000  I  just  estimated  what  it  would 
be,  and  then  after  the  cotton  was  weighed  up  and  there  was  a  bal- 
ance due  the  penitentiary  it  was  paid  to  them;  after  we  had  the 
total — detailed  weights  of  the  cotton.  i? 

Q.    Your  books  will  show  this  transaction? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  believe  that  you  have  stated  that  you  bought  this  cotton 
along  about  five  o'clock? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  stated  that  we  had  been  bargaining  for  it  during 
the  day,  but  that  the  deal  was  not  closed  up  until  about  five  o'clock 
in  the  afternoon;  at  least  it  was  late  in  the  afternoon. 

Q,  You  don't  know  whether  it  was  five  or  half  past  four  or 
four? 

A.    I  think  it  was  after  five,  because  it  was  about  dark. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Hutchinson,  whether  the  cotton  market 
had  reached  its  lowest  ebb  at  that  time? 

A.  I  think  it  had  reached  its  lowest  ebb  before  that  time  and 
was  then  on  a  reaction — coming  from  the  bottom. 

Q.  What  was  the  difference  frcmi  the  lowest  price  that  cotton 
had  dropped  to  and  the  price  that  you  gave  for  this  cotton? 

A.     I  think  that  the  low  point  for  December  was — 

Q.    This  was  in  November? 

A.    I  know,  but  it  is  the  current  month  we  figure  on — we  figure. 
a  month  ahead.    Dealing  in  the  cotton  business  is  done  by  contract,  ' 
you  understand,  and  necessarily  you  have  to  figure  a  month  ahead. 
You  can't  buy  November  cotton  here  in  November  and  deliver  it  iD 
November — on  November  contracts. 


—  191  — 

Q.  What  had  cotton  been  selling  for  just  previous  to  your  pur- 
chase of  that,  do  your  books  show? 

A.  It  shows  what  I  paid  for  it— yes,  sir.  Little  Rock  quota- 
tions just  previous  to  that  purchase,  middling  upland  cotton  up- 
ward of  seven  cents. 

Q.     What  was  it  a  week  before? 

A.  I  don't  just  remember  just  a  certain  number  of  days  before, 
but  during  the  week  preceding  I  knew  that  middling  cotton  was 
quoted  as  seven  cents  during  the  week  preceding  the  sale  of  that 
cotton. 

Q.    You  paid  seven  and  five-sixteenths  for  this  cotton? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  bought  a  great  deal  of  cotton;  best  middling  at 
seven  cents  delivered  in  Little  Rock. 

Q.     On  what  road? 

A.     The  various  roads  coming  here. 

Q.  You  don't  say  that  you  bought  cotton  a  week  before  and 
don't  remember  the  price? 

A.  I  don't  remember  just  seven  days  before,  but  during  the 
week  before  I  had  bought  cotton  on  the  Fort  Smith  road — middling 
cotton  at  and  under  seven  cents,  delivered  in  Little  Rock;  that  was 
what  it  actually  cost  to  deliver  it  in  Little  Rock,  about  seven  cents — 
cotton  delivered  in  Little  Rock  for  seven  cents. 

Q.    You  say  you  bought  that  on  the  Fort  Smith  road? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  would  make  it  cost  about  seven  cents  a  pound, 
f .  o.  b.  the  cars  at  Little  Rock. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  ask  what  you  paid  for  cotton  seven  days 
after  you  bought  that  cotton  from  the  State,  or  if  your  books  show 
that  fact? 

A.  I  don't  know;  it  advanced  a  little  after  that  time,  a  slight 
advance,  and  has  been  ever  since.  I  would  say  that  the  Little  Rock 
quotations  a  week  after  that  sale  was  seven  and  a  quarter.  The 
low  point  for  Little  Rock  quotations  was  seven  cents  for  middlings. 

Q.  What  was  this  cotton  quoted  at,  this  same  grade  of  coiton, 
two  weeks  after  you  bought  this  cotton? 

A.  I  think  it  was  seven  and  three-eighths.  Not  on  this  same 
grade;  I  did  not  quote — 

Q.  I  am  talking  about  the  cotton  which  you  bought  from  the 
State  that  you  gave  seven  and  five-sixteenths  for? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  meant  to  ask  you  what  this  same  grade  of  cotton  that  you 
had  bought  from  the  State,  what  it  was  selling  for  two  weeks  be- 
fore; I  have  asked  you  that,  now  I  am  asking  you  what  this  same 


—  192  — 

grade  of  cotton  was  selling  for  two  weeks  afterwards,  or  what  yon 
gave  for  this  same  grade  of  cotton  seven  days  or  a  week  afterwards? 

A.  I  don't  know;  we  got  very  few  middling  bales  then.  This 
cotton  was  worth  just,  I  will  say,  a  shade  more  than  middling  up- 
land cotton;  it  was  graded  just  a  fraction  more  than  upland  strict 
low  middling,  but  on  account  of  the  character  of  the  staple  it  was 
worth  a  fraction  over  the  upland  cotton. 

Q.    You  mean  this  State  cotton? 
*     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  you  gave  for  that  same  grade  of  cotton 
two  weeks  after  you  bought  the  State's  cotton? 

A.     Seven  and  three-eighths. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  with  reference  to  where  this  cotton 
was  raised — I  mean  of  your  own  knowledge — that  that  was  raised 
on  the  Beakley  farm  and  that  raised  on  the  Little  place? 

A.    Well,  we  got  some  cotton  from  Conway. 

Q.     That  was  the  Little' farm,  I  believe? 

A.  That  was  a  very  low  grade;  very  much  lower  than  the 
other. 

Q.    Lower  than  that  from  the  Beakley  farm? 

A.    I  suppose  so. 

Q.    Or  any  of  the  cotton  off  of  this  Beakley  farm? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  or  a  shade  more  undesirable  on  account  of^  lots  of 
bolls  in  it,  and  leaves  and  dirt;  it  had  been  gathered  and  not  picked, 
and  where  it  had  been  ginned  the  huller  wasn't  good  and  permitted 
a  lot  of  bolls  and  hulls  to  go  through,  and  on  that  account  it  dam- 
aged the  cotton  and  made  it  a  little  better  than  strict  low  middling. 
The  other  cotton  wasn't  in  the  same  class  on  account  of  what  we 
call cotton;  that  from  the  Conway  place. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  why  you  delayed  the  payment  of  the  $30,000 
on  this  cotton  for  three  days  after  you  purchased  it? 

A.    Because  they  did  not  ask  for  it. 

Q.    They  had  not  asked  for  it? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    Had  they  delivered  you  the  cotton? 

A.  They  were  making  delivery  of  it  as  fast  as  they  could. 
They,  I  suppose,  were  making  delivery  of  it  from  the  19th  on  until 
the  last  of  it  was  in.  They  had  delivered  part  of  it. 

Q.    When  did  you  get  the  last  cotton? 

A.  I  don't  remember  the  date  exactly.  It  is  a  matter  of  record 
down  there  in  the  office.  I  don't  recollect  the  time. 


— -  193  — 

Q.  Can  you  approximate  about  what  time  afterwards  you  got 
the  balance  of  it? 

A.     I  can't  do  any  more  than  guess. 

Q.  Well,  you  ought  to — making  a  transaction  like  that  you 
ought  to  remember  something  about  the  time  you  wound  up  the 
transaction? 

A.  I  don't  consider  in  collecting  up  a  lot  of  cotton  like  that 
was  any  very  important  transaction. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  when  you  got  the  last  cotton,  whether 
it  was  two  weeks  or  a  month  afterwards? 

A.  If  I  was  guessing  I  would  say  two  weeks.  There  was  noth- 
ing to  call  my  attention  to  it.  There  was  no  unusual  delay  about  it. 
I  never  did  any  hustling  to — 

Q.  You  did  not  have  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Cook  about  It  10 
the  effect  that  some  of  this  cotton  had  not  been  gathered  yet,  did 
you? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     You  had  no  information  in  that  form  at  all? 

A.     I  haven't  yet. 

Q.  You  did  not  know  that  some  of  that  cotton  was  still  in  the 
Held? 

A.  I  did  not  know  whether  any  of  it  was  in  the  field,  or  not.  i 
don't  suppose  it  was. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Are  you  buying  any  cotton  to  be  raised 
next  year? 

A.    No,  sir;  nor  the  following  year,  either. 

Q.     By  the  samples? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    Do  you  know  what  a  cotton  hook  is? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  take  a  cotton  hook  and  go  turn  over  a  bale  of  cotton 
to  see  whether  it  is  there  or  not  when  you  buy  it? 

A.    I  never  have  yet;  no,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Cook,  when  he  offered  you  his  cotton  you  b'ought  it  by 
samples;  you  didn't  go  out  on  the  street  and  cut  the  bales  like  a 
country  buyer  does,  did  you? 

A.  No,  sir.  Our  street  buyer  does  when  a  buyer  comes  in  to 
the  office. 

Q.     I  am  talking  about  this  particular  cotton? 

A.     Never;   no,  sir. 

Q.    You  bought  the  cotton  by  the  samples? 

Testimony— 7 


—  194  — 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  buy  a  great  deal  of  big  amounts — buy  a  great  deal  of 
cotton  in  that  way? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    All  you  do  is  look  at  the  samples  and  grade  the  cotton? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  all. 

Q.    And  classify  it  and  make  your  bid? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  the  other  bidders  do  the  same? 

A.    So  far  as  I  know;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  custom,  and  if  you  are  the  highest  or  higher 
than  the  next  man,  you  get  the  cotton;  if  you  are  not,  you  don't? 

A.    That  is  the  custom;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  What  time  of  the  day  was  it  that  you 
paid  over  that  check  on  the  21st? 

A.  Very  late  in  the  afternoon;  I  suppose  about  five  o'clock. 
That  is  what  I  would  guess. 

Q.    Do  you  remember  at  whose  request  you  paid  it  over? 

A.  To  Mr.  Cook  on  his  own  request.  He  came  after  it  person- 
ally and  got  a  check. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  When  he  came  to  your  office  that  after- 
noon about  five  o'clock,  did  you  know  of  any  reason  why  he  was 
anxious  to  get  that  money  then? 

A.  If  I  did  I  don't  remember  it.  I  have  heard  a  great  deal  of 
talk  about  it  after  I  had  given  him  the  check,  though,  that  was.  I 
don't  know  whether  he  told  me  he  wanted  to  use  it  in  buying  a  farm 
or  making  a  payment  on  it  or  not;  if  he  did,  I  don't  remember  it. 
I  didn't  pay  much  attention,  for  it  was  nothing  to  me  what  he  did 
with  it. 

Q.  I  believe  you  have  stated  in  answer  to,  when  this  cotton 
was  sold  and  what  it  was  sold  for,  that  this  cotton  was  sold  on  a 
rising  market? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  Little  Rock  quotations  were  marked  up  in  the 
Board  of  Trade  one-eighth  that  day. 

Q.    How  much  would  that — 

A.  At  least  twenty  points — it  is  called  points — and  twenty 
points  is  a  dollar  a  bale. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  prior  to  that  day  cotton  had  been  on 
the  decline  for  several  days? 

A.  It  had  been  on  the  decline  from  about  the  1st  of  November; 
from  the  1st  to  the  llth  it  had  declined  about  forty  points;  or 


—  195  — 

rather,  it  was  forty  points  lower  on  the  llth  than  it  was  the  1st, 
and  on  the  18th  it  had  advanced  about  even  with  the  decline. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  lost  from  the  1st  of  November  to  about 
the  10th  or  llth,  when  it  re-acted? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  lost  as  much  as  $2  a  bale,  and  then  it  re-acted  and 
then  it  advanced  about  even  with  where  it  was  before  it  declined. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  You  do  not  know  why  the  financial  agent 
did  not  wait  and  get  the  benefit  of  the  upward  rise  or  not,  do  you,  in 
cotton? 

A.  I  don't  suppose  he  had  any  assurance  that  it  was  going  to 
be  any  better;  he  couldn't  tell. 

Q.    It  was  on  the  rise  then,  wasn't  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcner)  Can  you  give  us  any  reason  why  you  did 
not  buy  this  cotton  a  weeK  prior  to  that  time? 

A.  It  wasn't  offered.  My  recollection  is  that  the  weather  since 
about  the  18th  of  November  has  been  mostly  rainy;  it  has  got  the 
farmers  coming  in  here  and  they  are  doing  a  good  deal  of  howling 
about  how  much  cotton  they  have  lost  I  don't  know  whether  it  was 
lost  or  not,  or  whether  they  are  just  trying  to  put  the  market  up. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge 
whether  the  Financial  Agent  got  any  other  bids  on  that  cotton  be- 
fore he  closed  it  out  to  you? 

A.  I  know  that  Mr.  Moore  did;  I  know  ]Wr.  R.  E.  Murray  bid 
on  it.  I  heard  Mr.  Murray  and  Mr.  Moore  talking,  and  Mr.  Moore 
told  him  that  he  was  taking  bids  on  the  cotton;  this  penitentiary 
cotton;  that  was  in  my  presence,  and  Mr.  Murray  said  to  him  that 
he  would  just  give  him  seven  and  three-sixteenths  for  it.  I  know 
this  of  my  personal  knowledge;  heard  it.  I  made  a  bid  on  the  cot- 
ton and  he  went  to  Mr.  Murray  and  wanted  him  to  raise  the  bid. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Murphy,  the  Attorney  General)  Was  there  any 
cross-lifting  by  the  bidders,  do  you  know — to  make  the  bidders  bid 
up? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  was  cross-lifting.  Mr.  Murray  cross-lifted 
what  he  had  bid — Mr.  Moore  had  been  over  there,  and  he  came  back 
to  me  and  said  that  Murray  had  cross-lifted  me,  and  then  I  took 
a  cross-lift  at  it,  also.  They  try  to  get  other  bids  made  on  it  and 
then  come  back  to  you  to  get  you  to  come  up  on  your  bid;  that  is 
the  usual  way. 

Q.  Well,  now,  what  other  people  sold  their  cotton  here  on  that 
day;  or  did  other  people  sell  their  cotton  here  on  that  day,  do  you 
know? 


—  196  — 

A.  On  the  days  previous  to  that,  on  that  day,  and  in  fact  every 
day,  about  then. 

Q.  I  mean  farmers  were  in  here  selling  their  own  cotton,  were 
they  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Receipts  have  been  very  heavy.  We  were  all 
busy;  had  been  buying  a  great  deal  of  cotton. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  you  bought  any  other  cotton  that 
day  or  not? 

A.  I  don't  remember  any  other  large  lots.  We  were  buying 
other  cotton  that  was  coming  in  there  and  other  cotton  that  was 
act  there;  buying  it  by  the  samples.  We  were  buying  and  paying 
as  low  as  six  and  three-quarters  for  upland  middlings,  and  it  took 
about  an  eighth  of  a  cent  to  put  it  in  here.  Cotton  was  hard  to  get 
moved  on  account  of  block  of  the  roads. 

Q.     This  was  on  account  of  the  block  of  the  railroads? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  roads  could  not  handle  it  all.  It  was  very  dif- 
ficult to  move  cotton  at  that  time  on  the  roads. 

Q.     The  railroads  were  blocked? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   the  railroads — the  Fort  Smith  road  was  blocked. 

Q.    Now  do  you  know  W.  H.  Eagle? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  sold  between  one  and  two  hundred 
bales  of  his  cotton  about  that  time  or  not? 

A.  I  think  that  he  sold  some  cotton  about  that  time,  but  I 
don't  know  how  much  it  was,  though. 

Q.  Do  you  know  or  have  any  information  or  means  of  knowing 
or  determining  reasonably  on  the  18th  or  19th  of  November  that 
there  would  be  a  rise  in  the  cotton  market  very  soon? 

A.  The  only  man  I  can  suggest  to  answer  that  now  would  be 
the  weather  man.  If  he  could  foretell  this  about  the  weather,  he 
would  have  to  go  on  the  road. 

Q.    When  did  the  weather  become  bad? 

A.     I  think  it  set  in  then,  or  a  day  or  so  afterwards. 

Q.  The  wet  weather  set  in  then  and  diminished  the  quantity  of 
cotton,  stopped  them  getting  it  out,  and  that  had  some  influence  on 
the  price? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Mr.  Hutchinson,  can  the  secretary  of  the 
Board  of  Trade,  or  some  one  connected  with  it.  get  the  quotations 
of  the  cotton  market,  or  something  that  will  show  the  exact  price 
that  cotton  was  sold  for  a  week  before  and  a  week  after  that  time? 


M 


—  197  — 

Yes,  sir.  Most  anybody  can  go  there  and  get  it  by  asking 
Mr.  George  Russ  Brown,  the  secretary,  for  it. 

Q.    He  is  officially  in  charge  of  these  reports? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  correct  information  that  is  relied  on  by  the 
cotton  men? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  He  could  supply  you  with  the  condition  of  the 
cotton  the  world  over  about. 

IQ.    That  will  also  show  the  Little  Rock  markets? 
A.     Yes,  sir;   every  market  in  the  world,  for  that  matter. 
Q.     That  would  decide  any  question  as  to  the  price? 
A.    Yes,  sir.     It  is  a  matter  of  record  down  there. 
J.  F.  SMITH  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testi- 
es  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)  What  business  are  you  engaged  in? 

I       A.     Cotton  business. 
Q.     What  firm  are  you  with? 
A.    W.  H.  McMurray  Cotton  Company. 

Q.  Were  you  representing  that  firm  in  Little  Rock  last  Novem- 
ber? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  such  were  you  called  upon  to  examine  the  cotton  of  the 
State  out  at  the  penitentiary? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  day  of  the  month  was  your  attention  first  called 
to  it? 

A.  Some  time.  My  attention  had  been  called  to  it,  I  suppose, 
a  couple  of  weeks  before,  that  the  cotton  was  ready  for  me  to  ex- 
amine; and  occasionally  Mr.  Cook  and  I  would  talk  about  it,  and  I 
told  him  that  I  wanted  a  chance  at  it  when  it  was  put  on  the  market. 

Q.  Can  you  remember  the  date  when  you  first  became  informed 
that  this  cotton  was  on  the  market? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it  was  about  the  16th  or  17th  of  November 
when  I  went  out  there.  They  notified  me  that  the  samples  were 
ready;  the  cotton  was  ready  for  me  to  examine,  and  I  went  out  on 
a  Monday  morning,  and  went  through  the  cotton.  I  spent  half  a 
day  going  through  that  cotton;  went  through  every  bale  of  it  that 
was  there  in  order  to  make  my  classification  on  it. 

Q.    How  many  bales  were  they  there? 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  there  was  some  five  hundred  and 
fifty;  between  five  fifty  and  six  hundred.  I  can't  be  positive  about 
the  number  of  bales  there.  They  were  supposed  to  be  selling  about 


—  198  — 

eight  hundred.  Mr.  Cook  and  Mr.  Moore  told  me  that  they  had  been 
slow  getting  it  in  from  the  farms.  Just  then  it  was  right  hard  to 
get  it  moved.  They  had  not  been  able  to  get  it  all  in  from  the  farms 
yet 

Q.     They  told  you  that  it  was  ready? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  If  I  bought  the  cotton  they  would  guarantee  the 
grade  of  it.  They  said  that  the  cotton  was  ginned  up  and  ready  for 
the  market,  but  they  had  not  been  able  to  get  only  a  part  of  it  in. 
But  I  was  knocked  out  of  it. 

Q.  They  told  you  that  the  cotton  was  ginned  and  ready  for  the 
market? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    The  whole  eight  hundred  bales? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  eight  hundred;  in  round  numbers,  eight  hundred 
bales.  I  wanted  that  cotton  and  I  studied  and  looked  it  over  very 
careful  with  a  view  of  buying  it  in,  and  I  wanted  to  bid  on  it.  i 
had  it  on  my  mind  for  some  time,  and  I  made  a  tabulated  classifica- 
tion of  it  over  at  the  office  and  I  submitted  it  to  Mr.  McMurray — 
he  was  here  then;  came  over  from  Memphis,  and  I  told  him  I 
wanted  to  make  an  offer  on  the  cotton;  and  so  the  next  day,  when 
Mr.  Cook  and  Mr.  Moore  came  down  to  sell  it,  I  started  the  bidding, 
and  I  again  looked  over  my  data.  Mr.  McMurray  told  me  that  I  had 
bid  all  that  it  was  worth,  and  he  thought  it  was  a  sixteenth  more 
than  it  was  really  worth.  In  fact,  he  said  it  was  not  worth  that  at 
that  time.  Mr.  Moore  went  around  to  the  various  concerns  and 
came  back  to  me  with  seven  and  five-sixteenths;  that  was  getting 
along  in  the  afternoon;  so  I  knew  that  was  away  above  me;  but  i 
told  him  I  would  talk  with  Mr.  McMurray,  and  1  went  and  talked 
with  him  again  about  it,  and  he  said  it  was  entirely  too  much;  I 
would  have  to  pass  it  up. 

Q.    What  was  your  bid  on  that  cotton? 

A.  I  think,  I  am  not  sure,  but  I  think  I  made  the  first  bid  of 
seven  and  one-sixteenth,  although  Mr.  McMurray  said  it  really 
wasn't  worth  exceeding  seven  cents. 

Q.    What  grade  was  that  cotton? 

A.  The  cotton  from  my  classification  on  it  was  simply  low, 
strict  low  middling. 

Q.    And  you  think  you  made  the  first  bid  on  it? 

A.  I  think  I  did.  I  am  pretty  certain  I  did,  from  the  fact  that 
I  had  examined  that  cotton  closely,  and  I  had  again  gone  and  looked 
at  it,  and  I  had  spent  a  half  a  day  out  there  going  through  it;  and 
Mr.  Moore  told  me  that  I  had  given  it  more  attention  than  any  one 
else,  and  three  or  four  concerns  had  their  representatives  out  there. 


—  199  — 

Q.     Please  name  them,  if  you  can? 

A.  Mr.  Morris  had  a  man  out  there,  and  I  thinK  Mr.  Jacobson, 
Mr.  Burrough's  man,  was  out  there,  and  Mr.  Ad  Hamburg  was  out 
there. 

Q.    He  represented  the  Lesser  Cotton  Company,  did  he? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  And  Mr.  —  came  out  there,  and  I  don't  re- 
member whether  Mr.  Hutchinson  came  or  not;  I  am  not  sure. 

Q.  Then  nearly  every  firm  had  a  representative  out  there  to 
figure  on  that  cotton? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  pretty  near  the  whole  of  them. 

Q.  Was  it  a  matter  of  general  notoriety  among  the  cotton  men 
that  that  cotton  was  being  offered  on  the  market? 

A.  Oh,  yes;  it  had  been  talked  about  for  a  week  that  it  would 
be  on  the  market  soon,  and  I  think  I  notified  Mr.  McMurray  that  I 
wanted  to  be  on  hand  to  get  that  cotton,  or  to  put  in  a  bid  on  that 
cotton  when  it  was  offered  for  sale. 

Q.  Your  partner,  Mr.  McMurray,  thought  that  seven  cents  was 
the  top  price  for  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  remember  the  condition  of  the  market  at  that 
time? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  I  have  some  recollection  of  it. 

Q.  Please  tell  the  committee  the  condition  of  the  market  at 
that  time,  and  just  '  "evious  and  just  afterwards? 

A.  The  market  had  been,  I  think,  some  twenty-five  points  lower 
before  that  time  than  it  was  at  that  time  that  cotton  was  sold.  It 
had  advanced  some  twenty-five  points,  perhaps  thirty  points  from 
the  start,  and  the  market  had  been  very  weak.  The  factories  were 
not  inclined  to  buy  very  freely,  and  it  was  pretty  hard  to  get  prices. 

Q.  But  soon  after  the  sale  of  this  cotton,  did  cotton  advance 
in  price  very  materially? 

A.  Well,  it  advanced  gradually  along;  in  fact,  ever  since  it  has 
been  advancing  some.  We  were  then  buying  cotton  from  the  coun- 
try over  the  'phone  from  the  merchants,  buying  middling  cotton  at 
from  six  and  three  sixteenths  to  six  and  seven  eighths.  This  cotton 
was  just  quoted  as  nothing  but  strict  low. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  within  a  week  or  ten  days  af- 
ter this  cotton  was  sold  that  there  was  any  perceptible  rise  in  the 
cotton  market? 

A.  Why,  yes;  I  stated  that  cotton  gradually  advanced  a  little; 
on  some  days  as  much  as  five  and  six  points  and  the  next  day  per- 
haps go  down  a  point  or  two. 


—  200  — 

Q.     It  was  in  an  unsettled  condition? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  an  unsettled  condition.  We  were  buying  country 
cotton  or  cotton  on  the  streets  out  of  wagons. 

Q.    Were  you  buying  a  good  deal  of  cotton? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  buying  on  the  streets  here,  and  by  telephone. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  it  is  the  custom  here  with  cotton  fac- 
tors to  buy  cotton  on  the  samples  without  seeing  the  bales  of  cotton, 
but  by  just  seeing  and  grading  the  samples;  is  that  the  custom? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  very  often  the  case  that  we  do  not  see  the 
cotton  at  all;  for  instance,  a  man  at  Dardanelle  had  some  samples, 
or  he  might  telephone  and  say  he  had  so  much  cotton  of  such  a 
grade  and  staple;  you  agree  with  him  upon  a  price,  and  of  course 
he  guarantees  the  grade  and  staple,  and  then  if  it  does  not  come 
up  to  the  grade  you  get  a  rebate  against  him.  And,  as  I  said,  very 
often  we  buy  from  the  samples  and  never  see  the  cotton.  Of  course 
cotton  that  we  buy  on  the  streets  we  see  the  bales;  we  get  them,  and 
we  see  the  actual  bale  of  cotton. 

R.  B.  HOGINS  on  oath,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testifies 
as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Please  give  the  stenographer  your 
name? 

A.     R.  B.  Hogins. 

Q.    What,  if  any  official  position  do  you  occupy? 

A.     I  am  Superintendent  of  the  Arkansas  State  Penitentiary. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  You  are  the  superintendent  of  the  Ar- 
kansas Penitentiary? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  long  you  have  been  such? 

A.  Since  the  1st  of  last  December  a  year  ago.  A  little  over  a 
year. 

Q.  Did  you  and  some  of  the  members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board 
examine  a  farm  or  farms  last  fall? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  went  with  Judge  Bradford;  met  him  up  town 
and  we  got  to  talking  and  we  decided  we  would  go  down  and  visit 
the  Altheimer  farm.  The  balance  of  the  board  had  already  been 
down  and  examined  it,  and  we  went  down;  he  requested  me  to  go 
with  him,  and  I  went  with  him  down  there,  and  we  got  horses  at 
Hayward  station  and  rode  over  the  farm. 

Q.    Well,  any  other  one? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  afterward  we  went,  Captain  Monroe,  Mr.  Crockett 
and  Judge  Bradford  and  I  went  over  the  Cummins  place. 

Q.    And  the  Maple  Grove  place? 


—  201  — 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Well,  what  did  you  see  there? 

A.  We  got  teams  at  Varner  and  drove  over  there — drove  over 
part  of  the  land  from  Varner,  going  over  there  and  over  the  culti- 
vated land,  and  examined  it  until  night,  and  the  next  morning  we 
got  horses  and  rode  around,  Captain  Monroe  and  Mr.  Crockett  rode 
through  the  cultivated  land  and  Judge  Bradford  and  I  went  througn 
the  uncleared  land.  We  spent  about  six  hours;  I  think  Judge  Brad- 
ford and  I  did  riding  through  the  uncleared  land. 

Q.     Well,  what  was  its  quality? 

A.  Well,  it  is  very  fine,  nice  farming  land.  Judge  Bradford 
and  I  found  some  places,  or  got  into  some  places,  where  the  grape 
vines  and  briars  were  so  thick  we  could  not  get  through;  we  had 
to  turn  around  and  ride  around,  retrace  our  steps  and  get  out  and 
take  another  route.  I  don't  think  I  ever  rode  through  any  finer 
land.  There  was  large  gum  trees,  cottonwood,  hackberry,  oak — 
very  fine  timber. 

Q.  We  have  agreed  to  pay  $140,000  for  that  plantation;  what 
do  you  think — is  it  worth  that — that  land? 

A.    I  think  it  is  worth  every  dollar  of  it  or  more. 

Q.  Did  you  not  express  yourself  that  way  in  the  presence  of 
the  board? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  we  were  talking  about  it  coming  back,  and  Mr. 
Crockett  and  I  talked  some  about  it. 

Q.  You  were  talking  about  it  among  yourselves,  and  with  no 
one  in  that  community? 

A.    Yes,  sir, 

Q.    That  was  when  you  were  going  back  to  Varner? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    How  did  it  compare  with  the  Altheimer  place? 

A.  I  wouldn't  give  one  acre  of  that  land  for  five  of  the  Alt- 
heimer land;  yes,  sir.  Out  in  the  woods— they  call  it  Porto  Rico 
down  there;  I  call  it  the  swamp;  there  is  more  crawfish  to  the 
square  acre  than  anywhere  I  ever  rode  over  in  my  life,  I  think. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)  That  is  on  the  Altheimer  place? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy,  continuing)  You  say  you  became  su- 
perintendent of  the  penitentiary  when? 

A.  Last  December  a  little  over  a  year  ago.  The  first  day  of 
December  when  I  went  in — 1901. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  there  until  this  disagreement  came 
up  between  us  and  the  Governor? 


—  202  — 

A.     It  was  three  or  four  weeks. 

Q.     What  was  the  cause  of  it? 

A.  The  Governor  wanted  me  to  appoint  Sam  Thatch  as  electri- 
cian. I  knew  he  was  not  competent  to  fill  the  place  and  I  told  him 
I  wouldn't  do  it.  He  kept  insisting  on  it,  and  I  finally  told  him  I 
wouldn't  do  it  if  every  member  of  the  board  requested  me  to  do  it 

(The  chair  rules  that  any  testimony  relating  to  the  disagree- 
ment between  the  witness  and  the  Governor  is  incompetent,  and 
refuses  to  allow  any  more  of  like  character  adduced.) 

Q.  Mr.  Hogins,  have  you  made  an  estimate  of  the  amount  of 
money  paid  out  on  those  two  farms? 

A.     The  rent  from  1895  up  to  the  present  time? 

Q.    Yes,  sir? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    What  does  it  show? 

A.  Here  is  the  number  of  bales  of  cotton  that  we  paid  as  rent 
from  1895  to  1902  inclusive. 

Q.     Is  the  rent  in  cotton? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  9,185  bales  of  cotton  was  paid  out  as  rent  from 
1895  to  1902  inclusive.  At  $35  a  bale  it  would  amount  to  $321,475. 
And  then  the  cotton  seed  we  estimated  at  ten  dollars  a  ton,  which 
would  make  $45,925,  making  a  total  of  $367,400  paid  out  for  rent 
since  1895. 

Q.     (By  Judge  Merriman)  In  the  last  seven  years? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy,  continuing)  That  is  counting  the  cot-, 
ton  at  $35  a  bale  and  the  seed  at  $10  a  ton? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  your  books  show  that  much  paid  out? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    That  much  cotton? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Mr.  Hogins,  you  are  a  practical  farmer, 
ire  you  not? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Prior  to  your  appointment  as  superintendent  of  the  penl- 
:entiary? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Depended  upon  it  for  your  living,  did  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  except  a  few  years  when  I  was  sheriff  and  clerk  of 
my  county. 


._  203  — 

Q.  You  say  you  made  an  investigation  of  this  Cummins  place 
down  there? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Upon  that  investigation,  Mr.  Hogins — of  your  own  investi- 
gation, and  from  what  had  developed  since  that  time,  I  will  ask  you 
if  you  consider  that  a  proper  place  for  a  convict  farm? 

A.    Yeg,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reason  why  it  is  particularly  adapted 
to  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  sandy  land  and  it  is  entirely  different  from 
the  Altheimer  place  or  the  Beakley,  and  it  has  a  lot  of  wood  land 
and  water  on  it.  Now,  we  have  nearly  a  hundred  bales  of  cotton 
in  the  field  at  England  that  we  can't  gather  at  all,  and  .we  will  not, 
if  it  rains  two  or  three  days,  but  down  there  on  the  Cummins  place, 
if  it  rains  one  day,  you  can  get  right  back  in  the  field  the  next  day 
and  work,  for  it  is  sandy  soil  and  the  water  sinks  right  in. 

Q.    What  about  the  natural  drainage  of  that  farm? 

A.  It  could  be  drained.  That  cypress  brake  could  be  drained, 
by  cutting  a  ditch  about  three-quarters  of  a  mile  and  it  would  drain 
that  brake  into  a  bayou.  It  could  be  drained  very  easy.  Mr.  Little 
drained  a  worse  cypress  brake  up  on  his  plantation  than  that. 

Q.  You  are  aware,  as  the  superintendent  of  the  penitentiary, 
that  where  seven  or  eight  hundred  convicts  are  kept  that  it  will  re- 
quire a  large  amount  of  drainage,  does  it  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  would  seem  so;  and  on  this  place  it  is  right  on 
the  river;  we  have  about  seven  miles  of  river  front — drainage  on 
the  river  front.  The  river  runs  around  in  a  kind  of  a  horseshoe  or 
bend  there. 

Q.  What  could  you  say  about  the  health  of  that  place  down 
there,  whether  it  would  be  a  healthy  location  for  a  convict  farm  or 
not? 

A.  I  think  it  would.  We  have  only  had  the  doctor  in  twice, 
and  we  have  one  hundred  and  sixty  men  down  there  now. 

Q.    And  you  have  only  had  to  call  a  doctor  in  twice? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  haven't  been  back  there  since  the  first  fifty  men 
went  down  there,  but  of  course  I  keep  track  of  them. 

Q.  And  the  doctor,  you  say,  has  only  been  called  in  twice  since 
they  have  been  down  there? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Mr.  Hogins,  you  were  raised  up  here  in 
the  hills  around  in  Polk  county? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  204  — 

Q.     You  don't  know  much  about  bottom  land,  do  you? 

A.  I  think  so.  T  have  collected  taxes  in  that  county  for  four- 
teen years,  and  it  has  a  right  smart  of  bottom  land  in  it,  and  I  had 
to  ride  all  over  it.  / 

Q.    Do  you  know  this  farm — have  you  seen  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  saw  the  place  one  time.  I  haven't  been  back 
since. 

Q.    Do  you  know  anything  about  this  Johnson  grass? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Did  you  ever  have  any  trouble  with  it? 

A.  I  never  knew  where,  I  used  to  live,  of  their  having  any 
trouble  with  it. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  any  of  that  Johnson  grass  around  on  that 
place? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  there  was  some  Johnson  grass  on  the  place. 

Q.  That  does  not  destroy  the  usefulness  of  the  land  where  it  is 
sodded  on? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not,  from  the  information  that  I  got  while 
I  was  down  there.  There  was  some  scattered  over  about  the  place. 
There  was  an  old  negro  there  who  had  bought  three  hundred  acres 
for  $15  an  acre,  because  they  thought  it  was  ruined  with  this  John- 
son grass;  it  was  sodded  down  in  Johnson  grass,  and  he  told  me  to 
ride  around  over  his  place  with  him  some  and  see  what  could  be 
done  with  it.  I  rode  around  over  it  with  him,  and  I  never  saw  but 
one  bunch  of  Johnson  grass,  about  as  large  as  my  hat,  on  the  place. 
He  said  it  was  as  thickly  sodded  on  his  place  as  it  could  be  and  he 
just  plowed  it  up,  turned  it  over  and  he  had  killed  it. 

Q.     You  claim,  then,  that  it  can  be  killed  out? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  I  am  satisfied  that  it  can  be. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  on  that  place — do  you  know?  I  mean 
this  Cummins  place? 

A.  I  went  over — went  over  on  the  morning  train  and  went  out 
there  and  spent  three  or  four  hours  the  first  day  and  the  next  morn- 
ing we  got  an  early  start  and  went  horseback.  Mr.  Crockett  and 
Colonel  Monroe  going  through  the  cultivated  land,  and  Judge  Brad- 
ford and  I  went  through  the  timber  land,  wooded  and  deadened 
land. 

Q.    What  time  of  the  year  did  you  say  that  was,  Mr.  Hogins? 

A.    It  was  along  in  November  some  time. 

Q.    Did  you  notice  the  crops  on  the  place? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Of  what  did  they  consist? 


—  205  — 

A.  Cotton  mostly.  They  don't  pay  much  attention  to  corn  down 
there. 

Q.    Do  you  know  how  many  acres  there  is  in  that  tract  of  land? 

A.    I  don't  know;  only  what  I  have  heard  it  was. 

Q.     How  much  did  you  hear  there  was? 

A.     Something  like  eleven  thousand  acres,    accretions    and    all. 

Q.  You  say  that  this  cypress  brake  or  slash  can  be  drained  by 
about  three-quarters  of  a  mile  or  a  mile  of  ditch? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     If  that  could  be  drained,  would  it  be  tillable  land? 

A.  They  tell  me  that  it  is  the  best  cotton  land  anywhere.  I 
am  satisfied — up  on  the  Little  place  last  year,  where  they  drained 
that  brake — I  am  satisfied  that  we  made  a  bale  of  cotton,  and  per- 
haps a  bale  and  a  half,  to  the  acre  there,  if  we  had  been  able  to 
gather  it.  The  finest  cotton  was  grown  there  in  that  brake  that  I 
ever  seen  grow  anywhere.  \Vhen  I  took  charge  in  December  I  went 
down  and  looked  things  over — 

Q.  You  don't  know  how  many  acres  was  in  cultivation  down 
there? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  I  think  there  is  from  twenty-four  to  twenty- 
five  hundred  acres;  that  is  what  they  told  me. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Hogins,  do  you  really  think  that  farm  is  worth 
what  they  paid  for  it? 

A.     I  do;  yes,  sir. 

Q.    Upon  what  do  you  base  your  opinion? 

A.  Well,  just  from  the  price  of  bottom  land;  you  can't  buy  cot- 
ton land,  such  land  as  that  is,  for  less  than  $40  an  acre. 

Q.  You  don't  mean  to  say  that  that  is  first-class  bottom  land, 
•lo  you? 

A.  I  do;  yes,  sir.  The  five  or  six  hours  that  Judge  Bradford 
and  I  rode  over  it,  I  don't  think  I  ever  rode  over  finer  land  than  that. 

Q.    That,  you  say,  was  not  in  cultivation? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  there  was  about  six  hundred  and  forty  acres  of 
it  deadened — had  been  deadened  several  years,  and  had  grown  up 
some.  There  is  a  great  deal  of  timber  on  that  land. 

Q.  Is  there  a  great  deal  of  that  land  that  is  in  cultivation, 
then — sandy  land? 

A.  Mo,  sir:  I  didn't  see  any.  There  may  have  been  some  in 
spots  around,  but  when  I  was  there  I  saw  cotton  growing  on  that 
cultivated  land  that  would  make  a  bale  to  the  acre,  I  am  satisfied. 
I  saw  some  very  fine  cotton  there,  with  Johnson  grass  standing  up 
between  the  drills. 


-  206  — 

Q.  What  would  you  consider  it  would  generally  average  per 
acre? 

A.  It  ought  to  make  twelve  hundred  pounds  or  a  bale  to  the 
acre. 

Q.    You  think,  then,  that  it  ought  to  make  a  bale  to  the  acre? 

A.    Yes,  sir;   I  think  it  would. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  it  is  worth  per  acre,  the  land  that  Is 
in  cultivation? 

A.     Oh,  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Basing  it  upon  your  own  knowledge  of  farm  lands,  bottom 
lands,  that  you  have  had,  about  what  would  you  think  it  was  worth? 

A.  I  stated  a  while  ago  about  one  kind  being  $30  and  $40  an 
acre.  I  have  known  some  land  around  there  to  sell  as  high  as  $50. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Mr.  Hogins,  do  you  know  how  long  that 
place  is? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.    Did  you  go  through  one  end  and  the  other  parties  the  other? 

A.  We  went  through;  you  go  in  one  way,  going  up  from  Var- 
ner,  and  we  come  out  another.  Judge  Bradford  and  I  went  down  to 
the  lower  end  of  this  land  and  come  clear  back  up  the  river.  I 
and  Judge  Bradford  noticed  the  wood  land  part  of  the  farm. 

Q.    Did  you  go  through  the  swamp  land? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  going  from  Varner  and  coming  back;  we  went  a 
different  road  going  and  coming  from  the  farm  back  to  Varner. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  levee  up  on  the  upper  end 
of  the  farm  there? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  I  saw  a  levee  along  there  in  front  of  it. 

Q.    A  levee  all  along  in  front  of  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Is  that  levee  necessary  to  protect  the  farm  from  overflows? 

A.    I  suppose  so,  or  it  wouldn't, be  there. 

Q.  That  levee  will  have  to  be  kept  up  at  the  expense  of  the 
State,  won't  it? 

A.  It  is  in  the  levee  district,  I  understand,  and  the  State  will 
not  have  to  keep  it  up  alone.  I  don't  think  they  would  have  to 
where  it  is  in  a  levee  district. 

Q.  Then  in  the  absence  of  that  levee  the  land  would  be  subject 
to  overflow;  wouldn't  it? 

A.  High  water,  yes,  sir.  In  1892,  I  believe,  Captain  Rice  told 
me  was  the  only  time  he  knew  of  it  getting  over  that  bottom;  that 
was  in  1892,  when  the  levee  broke  about  eight  or  nine  miles  above 
there. 


Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  living  on  that  levee  having  been 
washed  away  at  that  time? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  three  hundred  acres  of  that 
land  caving  into  the  river? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Did  you  hear  anything  about  that? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Then  you  don't  know  if  that  is  the  case? 

A.  I  do  not;  no,  sir.  There  is  a  levee  up  in  front  and  clear 
around,  as  far  as  I  went  up  to  the  upper  end.  We  just  went  througn 
the  farm;  I  don't  know  how  much  further  that  levee  went. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  land  or  farm  overflows  by  the 
river  backing  up  into  that  Cypress  Creek? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.    You  don't  know  anything  about  that? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  did  not  make  any  inquiries  as  to  these  features  of 
that  farm,  did  you? 

A.    I  did  not;  no,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  about  going  down  through  the  wooded  land  and 
getting  into  cane  and  thickets,  brush  and  turning  around  and  going 
back  another  way,  you  had  to  do  that  to  get  out  of  those  lagoons 
and  sloughs,  didn't  you? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.  Was  there  any  lagoons  or  sloughs  there  besides  that  cypress 
brake? 

A.    I  didn't  see  any,  but  I  am  informed  that  they  are  there. 

Q.    On  which  side  of  the  farm  is  that  cypress  brake? 

A.  It  runs  along  about  the  center,  I  guess,  between  the  culti- 
vated land  and  the  timber  land. 

Q.    On  the  southwest  side  of  the  farm? 

A.    Of  that  cultivated  land,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  water  in  that  cypress  brake  be- 
comes stagnant  during  the  summer  or  not? 

A.     I  think  it  dries  up  in  the  summer? 

Q.     But  at  no  other  season  of  the  year? 

A.  I  think  it  dries  up  during  the  summer.  I  think  it  dries  up 
in  the  summer,  but  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Well,  I  will  ask  you  this  question,  don't  the  winds  in  this 
State  generally  come  from  the  southwest,  and  that  takes  the  disease 


£erms  and  tiie  malaria  from  that  swamp  over  into  the  improved 
«and? 

A.  i'es,  all,  T  suppose  so;  but  1  can't  tell  you  anything  about 
that. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Hogins,  in  a  country  that  is  more  or  less  infected 
with  uialaiia,  you  have  more  or  less  stagnant  water  or  swamps,  do 
you  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  the  Arkansas  river  bottom,  during  the  heated 
months,  we  are  more  or  less  subject  to  it. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  ask  you  another  question  in  relation  to  that 
farm  matter;  did  you  ever  hear  any  one  say  anything  about  what 
that  farm  had  previously  sold  for? 

A.     No,  sir;   no  one. 

Q.    You  didn't  make  any  inquiries  along  that  line? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  had  no  one  to  inquire  from. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  one  say  what  that  farm  had  been  renting 
for  before  the  State  purchased  it? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    You  didn't  make  any  inquiries  along  that  line? 

A.  I  heard  this  man  Willie  say  that  he  once  cultivated  it — he 
has  charge  of  the  Altheimer  place  now.  He  was  showing  us  around 
over  it;  he  sent  a  negro  with  us  tor  a  while  over  part  of  it,  and  we 
got  around  and  I  said  there  is  a  thousand  acres  up  there  in  the 
woods  that  I  wouldn't  give  fifty  cents  an  acre  for  it;  it  was  nothing 
but  this  craw-fish  land,  and  I  asked  him  if  he  knew  anything  about 
that  Cummins  place,  and  he  said  yes,  that  he  had  commenced  there 
and  had  made  all  of  his  money  on  that  place. 

Q.  You  did  not  know  that  the  Willie  brothers  rented  that 
land  for  $1,300  or  about  fifty  cents  an  acre? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  did  not  know  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  they  refused  to  rent  any  more  at  that 
same  price — pay  that  price  any  longer  for  it? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  I  know  that  Mr.  Willie  told  me  that  he  didn't 
know  a  farm  in  Arkansas  more  suitable  for  a  convict  farm  than 
that  place.  Well,  I  was  looking  at  Mr.  Altheimer's  place,  and  he 
was  the  manager  for  Mr.  Altheimer,  but  of  course  I  didn't  know 
whether  he  was  interested  in  our  buying  the  Altheimer  place  or 
not. 

Q.     You  don't  know  then  that  the  place  sold  for  $43,000? 

A.     I  do  not;  no,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  inquiries  as  to  what  that  farm  was 
listed  at  on  the  tax  books? 


A.  No,  sir;  but  that  wouldn't  have  changed  my  mind  as  to 
that  for  I  know  of  land  that  is  put  down  on  the  books,  farms,  for 
about  one-fifth  of  what  they  are  worth. 

Q.     You  don't  know  what  this  land  is  listed  at? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Whether  it  was  listed  at  $25,000,  or  more  or  less? 

A.  I  expect  $25,000  would  be  a  pretty  good  value  for  it  on 
the  tax  books.  I  judge  that  to  be  a  fair  value  of  it  on  the  tax 
books. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  much   it  rented   for? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  much  accretions  there  is  to  it? 

A.  No,  sir.  Outside  of  the  levee,  I  suppose  that  is  the  accre- 
tions that  you  speak  of. 

Q.     You  don't  know  whether  it  is  subject  to  overflow? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not.  I  expect  it  overflows  in  high  water 
times;  yes,  sir,  it  is  lower  than  the  levees. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  three  thousand  acres  of  the  accretions 
there  is  valuable,  fit  for  cultivating  as  a  farm? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  if  the  river  don't  get  up.  I  think  there  is  sev- 
eral hundred  acres  in  there  that  would  make  very  fine  crops,  unless 
the  river  gets  up  over  it,  of  course  he  would  take  a  chance  of  get- 
ting his  crop. 

Q.  You  are  not  sure  but  what  the  State  would  lose  several 
crops  on  it? 

A.  I  don't  think  it  is  very  likely  too;  there  is  cotton  wood 
trees  on  it  three  and  four  feet  through.  Of  course  it  would  be  a 
hard  proposition  to  say  whether  it  would  overflow  or  not. 

Q.  You  were  interested  in  the  State  buying  that  place — you 
were  interested  in  the  convict  farm  matter? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  but  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  buying  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  take  notice  as  to  what  extent  the  Johnson  grass 
had  covered  the  farm? 

A.  Well,  yes;  I  rode  pretty  much  all  over  the  cleared  land. 
There  once  in  a  while  you  would  see  five  or  six  acres  in  cotton 
where  some  negro  had  not  worked  it  very  well,  while  there  would 
be  sometimes  more  or  less  Johnson  grass  in  the  drills,  generally 
the  cotton  was  clean  and  a  very  fine  crop.  You  frequently  see  that 
though  in  a  negro's  crop,  cuckle-burrs  or  crab-grass,  but  here  it 
was  r  Johnson  grass.  Johnson  grass  would  grow  taller  than  the 
cotton,  but  in  it  you  would  see  as  I  said,  some  very  fine  cotton. 


Q.  If  you  were  going  to  buy  a  farm  for  yourself,  would  you 
buy  a  farm  covered  with  Johnson  grass? 

A.  Well,  from  what  I  learned  down  there  I  don't  think  it  is 
any  disadvantage.  It  is  harder  to  cultivate  the  first  two  years, 
takes  some  work;  and  the  old  negro  showed  me  where  he  had 
killed  it  out,  and  conversations  I  had  convinced  me  that  it  was 
not  so  bad. 

Q.  Where  a  person  is  sent  to  the  penitentiary  and  sentenced 
to  hard  labor  do  you  think  that  this  Johnson  grass  would  make 
the  labor  any  harder? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  would  think  so. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  law  would  be  more  nearly  meted  out 
if  there  was  any  Johnson  grass  there? 

A.  I  think  they  would  work  a  little  harder  and  a  little  longer 
in  July. 

Q.  Now  Mr.  Hogins,  if  you  were  going  to  buy  a  farm  to  cost 
$140,000,  would  you  buy  it  just  on  a  half  a  day's  or  ten  or  twelve 
hour's  inspection;  would  that  suit  you  if  you  were  going  to  buy  a 
farm  and  pay  $140,000  for  it;  put  $140,000  into  that  farm? 

A.  If  I  knew  that  three  or  four  men  should  go  around  with  me 
like  this  was  and  each  looking  at  it  like  I  did  for  his  own  and 
I  knew  it,  I  would.  But,  I  haven't  got  $140,000  to  pay  for  a  farm. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  buy  a  farm  and  have  men  to  pass  their  judg- 
ment on  that  farm  for  you? 

A.     Well,  I  never  bought  but  one  farm  in  my  life. 

Q.  But  before  you  would  make  a  trade  wouldn't  you  want  to 
pass  your  own  judgment  on  it? 

A.  Well,  I  might  take  a  neighbor's  word  for  a  great  many 
things.  And  I  have  done  that  in  a  great  many  instances. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Crutcher)  Mr.  Hogins,  what  do  you  say  as  to  the 
Johnson  grass  as  compared  with  crab-grass? 

A.  Well,  I  expect  it  is  a  little  harder  to  kill  out  than  crab- 
grass  is. 

Q.     Is  it  possible  to  kill  crab-grass  at  all? 

A.  It  is  almost  impossible  to  kill  it.  If  the  weather  is 
dry  you  can  kill  it,  but  if  it  rains  you  can't  kill  it  at  all  hardly. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Fletcher)  Is  the  Cummins  place  accessible  to  the 
sapitol  of  the  State,  Mr.  Hogins? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  by  railroads.  Of  course  there  are  times 
when  the  roads  are  very  bad.  Up  in  the  hills  where  I  lived  the 
roads  on  the  mountain  side  would  get  so  bad  they  would  wreck 
a  wagon  nearly.  From  Varner  out  to  the  farm  there  is  a  mile 


—  211  — 

and  a  half  or  two  miles  of  this  black  waxy  land  and  they  tell  me 
it  is  right  hard  work  for  four  horses  to  get  through  there.  It 
used  to  be  logs  cross-laid  and  in  places  there  will  be  three  or  four 
rotted  out  and  that  makes  chuck-holes. 

Q.     That  is  from  Varner  out  to  the  farm? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  after  you  get  over  this  there  is  good  sandy 
roads. 

Q.     How  many  acres  of  timber  land  is  there  on  this  place? 

A.  I  think  there  is  several  thousand  acres  of  it.  I  under- 
stand so. 

Q.     What  kind   of  timber? 

A.     Oh,  gum,  large  gum,  hackberry,  cotton  wood  and  pecan. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  relative  number  of  acres  of  each,  how 
many  of  acres  of  cotton  wood? 

A.    All  over  it,  about  the  same. 

Q.     Is  there  large  timber  then  on  the  place? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  and  a  good  many  small  trees. 

Q.     Is  it  not  a  fact  that  that  timber  is  very  valuable? 

A,    Yes,  sir.    It  has  good  timber  on  that  place. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  worth  per  thousand  feet 
of  cotton  wood  timber? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  do  not. 

Q.  (By  Mr  Whitley)  There  was  something  said  by  somebody, 
I  believe  by  the  Governor,  that  it  took  from  four  to  six  mules  to 
pull  two  men  over  that  road  from  the  farm  to  Varner,  and  I  De- 
iieve  you  said  the  road  is  bad? 

A,  It  wasn't  when  we  was  there,  but  I  think  at  other  seasons 
of  the  year  it  would  be.  I  rode  out  in  a  buggy  with  Mr.  Crockett, 
and  there  was  four  in  the  other  rig. 

Q.  You  don't  know  how  many  mules  it  takes  to  pull  two  men 
across  there? 

A.     I  don't  know  that;  no,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Hogins,  would  that  farm  without 
the  levee  overflow  except  from  high  water  that  would  overflow  the 
other  surrounding  farms? 

A.     I  don't  think  so. 

Q.  You  have  been  asked  about  sand  bars,  I  want  to  ask  you 
if  that  accretion  land  is  a  sand  bar? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  call  it  a  sand  bar.  There  is  big  cotton 
wood  trees  on  it.  I  estimated  that  they  were,  I  think  they  are  three 
and  four  feet  in  diameter. 

Q.     So  that  would  not  overflow  except  from  the  flat? 


—  213  — 

A.  Back  out  in  that  flat  during  high  water  and  overflow  it 
maybe. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  Do  you  know  anything,  Mr.  Hogins,  about 
the  sale  of  this  cotton  to  the  George  Taylor  Commission  Company? 

A.  I  only  know  that  it  was  sold,  and  that  it  had  been  figured 
on  several  days  by  different  persons. 

Q.  You  don't  know  anything  of  the  circumstances  surround- 
ing the  sale  of  it? 

A.     No,    sir. 

The  following  letter  was  received  by  the  chairman  and  read  to 
the  committee: 

"Office  of  the  Attorney  General,  Little  Rock,  Ark., 
March  2,  1903. 

"Hon.  E.  M.  Merriman,  Chairman  of  Ways  and  Means  Committee, 

Little  Rock,  Ark.: 

"My  Dear  Sir: — Some  days  since  I  sent  to  your  committee 
a  list  of  witnesses  embracing  the  names  of  thirteen  persons  re- 
siding in  Jefferson  county,  eighteen  residing  in  Lincoln  county, 
and  three  residing  in  Pulaski  county.  All  these,  with  the  excep- 
tion of  one.  are  thoroughly  familiar  with  the  Cummins  and  Maple 
Grove  plantation,  its  location,  its  fertility,  and  healthfulness,  sev- 
eral of  them  having  worked  the  farm,  cultivated  it  for  a  number 
of  years,  one  having  been  reared  on  it,  others  near  it.  By  all  of 
them,  except  Mr.  Moore,  it  was  expected  to  prove  that  the  planta- 
tion is  worth  at  the  lowest  estimate,  the  price  at  which  the  board 
purchased  it.  They  estimate  its  value  at  from  $15  to  $25  per  acre 
all  the  way  through,  and  say  that  there  is  no  more  fertile  body  of 
land.  I  thought,  and  think  yet,  this  an  important  matter  in  vin- 
dication of  the  purchase.  The  evidence  on  this  line,  as  shown  by 
the  affidavits  of  these  parties  and  others,  is  not  less  favorable  than 
I  have  stated  it.  Indeed,  the  consensus  of  their  opinion  places  it 
higher  than  a  medium  between  the  two  extremes  of  $15  and  $25 
per  acre. 

"While  I  do  not  wish  to  interfere  with  any  line  of  procedure 
the  committee  thinks  proper  to  adopt,  I  would  like  to  have  this 
testimony  introduced. 

"I  was  also  requested  by  the  committee,  in  connection  witn 
Messrs.  Crockett,  Monroe  and  Bradford,  to  furnish  counter-charges 
against  the  Governor,  which  was  done. 

"Upon  these  no  evidence  has  as  yet  been  introduced,  the  in- 
vestigation having  been  confined  to  the  purchase  of  the  farm  and 


—  213  - 

other  matters  not  embraced  iii  our  specifications.  All  these  speci- 
fications I  deem  susceptible  of  proof,  and  that,  too,  without  going 
to  any  great  length  in  consumption  of  time.  The  sources  of  the 
evidence  will  be  furnished  when  the  committee  indicates  a  desire 
for  it,  with  a  statement  of  the  points  expected  to  be  established 
by  each  witness,  if  desired. 

"There  is  also  available  evidence,  which  I  will  furnish  the 
committee  on  request,  of  the  receipt  by  the  Governor  and  the  Sec- 
retary of  the  Charitable  Board,  following  sales  to  some  of  the 
charitable  institutions,  of  gifts  which,  it  has  been  very  authorita- 
charitable  institutions,  of  gifts  which,  it  has  been  veryauthorita- 
tively  said,  'blindeth  the  eyes  of  the  wise  and  perverteth  the  judg- 
ment of  the  just.'  This,  however,  with  any  other  information  as 
to  witnesses  I  may  obtain,  I  have  no  desire  to  thrust  upon  the 
committee,  thereby  creating  confusion,  until  they  are  ready  for 
its  use,  or  nearly  so. 

"Yours   respectfully, 

"G.  W.  MURPHY." 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    rteans   Committee 


ON 


Tuesday,  March  3, 
1903 


NDEX. 

COL.    COLQUITT. 


-  217  — 
jedings  Tuesday,  March  3. 

Colonel  G.  W.  Murphy — Mr.  Chairman,  Senator  Cotton  is  here, 
and  I  wish  to  prove  by  him  that  Governor  Davis  told  him  last  week 
that  he  (Davis)  had  never  seen  this  Cummins  farm. 

Governor  Davis — I  will  admit  that  I  have  never  seen  it. 

COLONEL  J.  C.  COLQUITT,  being  recalled,  testified  as  follows 
to-wit: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  You  were  sworn  when  you  testified 
heretofore? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  the  vouchers  with  you  with  reference  to  the  Gov- 
ernor's contingent  fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Please  turn  to  Voucher  No.  5389,  issued  in  1901. 

A.  I  have  it;  it  is  a  voucher — Western  Union  Telegraph  Com- 
pany. 

Q.     Lay  it  aside  for  the  present. 

Q.    No.  5876? 

A.    It  is  a  telegraph  voucher  also — telegraph  bills. 

Q.  Well,  lay  it  aside  also.  No.  6616.  Is  that  a  telegraph  or  a 
telepnone  voucher?  I  have  no  means  of  knowing,  as  I  only  have 
the  numbers  to  call  from. 

A.    It  is  a  telegraph  bill  also. 

Q.    No.  6114? 

A.     This  is  not  a  telegraph  nor  a  telephone  bill. 

Q.    What  is  it? 

A.  Additional  expenses  to  St.  Louis  to  select  a  site  for  the  Ar- 
kansas building  at  the  Louisiana  Purchase  Exposition — $50. 

Q.    No.  4529? 

A.     That  is  telephone  messages. 

Q.    Please  read  it,  Colonel. 

A.     Do  you  want  the  items  read? 

Q.    Yes,  sir. 

A.  It  is  dated  May  29—1  mean  the  bill,  but  it  was  paid  on  the 
31st.  The  first  item  was  on  the  7th,  Barnes  at  Fort  Smith,  sent  by 

,  85  cents.  On  the  10th,  Davis,  Russellville,  sent  by 

Mrs.  Davis,  25  cents.  On  the  llth,  Davis,  Russellville,  senders  name 
is  blank,  25  cents.  On  the  llth,  Davis  at  Russellville,  by  Jacobson, 
55  cents;  on  the  14th,  Davis  at  Russellville,  by  blank,  25  cents.  On 
the  15th,  message  to  Jobe,  Hope,  sent  by  Davis,  90  cents;  15th,  Ma- 


—  218  -- 

honey  at  El  Dorado,  Cam.  7;  Mr.  Chairman,  I  don  t  know  what  that 
means — 25  cents,  and  it  is  extended  out  45  cents.  There  is  one  item 
of  45  cents  in  the  column;  I  don't  understand  what  that  is. 

On  the  17th,  Davis,  Russellville,  sent  by  Davis,  25  cents;  20th, 
Humphreys,  Arkadelphia,  name  of  the  sender  is  blank,  40  cents; 
23d,  Mrs.  A.  T.  Davis,  Russellville,  sent  by  Davis,  30  cents;  25th, 
Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  sent  by  Davis,  45  cents;  27th,  Judge  Da- 
vis, Russellville,  sent  by  Davis,  40  cents;  28th,  Judge  Davis,  Rus- 
sellville, sent  by  Mrs.  Davis,  25  cents;  31st,  Judge  Davis,  Russell- 
ville, sent  by  Jeff  Davis,  25  cents.  That  is  all.  The  amount  of  that 
bill  is  $5.80. 

Q.    Is  that  all  of  it? 

A.  No,  here  is  three  items:  29th,  Governor  Davis,  Memphis, 
sent  by  Acting  Governor — I  suppose  by  Huddleston — message,  7:lb, 
but  there  is  only  the  15  cents  counted  in.  Governor  Davis,  Mem- 
phis, by  Watkins,  75  cents;  Governor  Davis,  Memphis,  by  A.  B.,  75 
cents. 

Q.    On  what  fund  was  that  drawn? 
A.    On  the  Governor's  contingent  fund. 
Q.    Was  it  paid  by  an  Auditor's  warrant? 
A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Well,  we  will  pass  to  the  next  voucher,  No.  6061? 
A.    That  is  not  a  telegraph  nor  a  telephone  message,  Mr.  Chair- 
man; it  is  expenses  to  St.  Louis  to  locate  a  site  for  the  Arkansas 
Building  at  the  Louisiana  Purchase  Exposition — $50. 

Q.  The  next  one  is  5397,  but  that  one  has  already  been  before 
the  committee,  I  believe,  that  is  the  voucher  for  $25  that  the  Gov- 
ernor is  accused  of  drawing  out  of  two  funds.  No.  5247? 

A.  That  was  a  telephone  bill,  but  it  seems  that  the  itemized  bill 
was  never  filed. 

Q.  Let  me  see  that,  please,  Mr.  Colquitt.  Please  read  that 
voucher. 

A.  Office  of  the  Governor,  Little  Rock,  August  5,  1901.  State  of 
Arkansas  to  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Telephone  Company, 
services  Governor's  office,  $15.55.  I  certify  that  the  above  account  is 
correct  and  payable  out  of  the  appropriation  to  pay  the  contingent 
expenses  of  the  Governor's  office,  signed,  Jeff  Davis,  by  Charles  Ja- 
cobson.  Received  a  warrant  for  the  amount  of  the  aDove  account, 
this  the  5th  of  August,  1901;  signed,  Southwestern  Telegraph  and 
Telephone  Company,  by  A.  V.  Johnson,  their  chief  collector. 

Q.     Is  it  not  necessary  that  these  vouchers  should  be  itemized? 
A.     Yes,  sir;   the  law  requires  it.     I  will  state,  Mr.  Chairman, 


—  219  — 

lat  Mr.  Jacobson  presented  that  particular  voucher  at  that 
time,  or  at  least  it  was  sent  down  and  he  said  he  would  send 
down  the  statement,  and  he  went  back  to  get  the  statement,  and,  as 
I  remember  it,  he  said  that  this  was  only  a  partial  payment;  that 
when  the  full  statement  was  sent  in  he  would  bring  it  down,  and  I 
think  perhaps  it  was  sent  down,  but  that  it  has  got  mixed  up  with 
some  of  these  other  vouchers,  or  out  of  pocket  somewhere.  I  think 
it  was  brought  down  afterwards,  when  the  final  statement  was  ren- 
dered. 

Q.    Pass  to  Voucher  No.  6056. 

A.    That  is  a  Western  Union  Telegraph  bill,  Mr.  Chairman. 
Q.     Lay  it  aside— No.  6361? 

A.    That  is  a  telephone  message — long  distance  bill,  I  mean. 
Q.    Please  read  it,  Colonel? 

A.     Message,  Governor  Davis  at  Stuttgart  and  DeWitt,  I  believe 
that  is  the  two  places  named  in  that  line — 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  What  month  is  that  for,  Colonel? 
A.  It  was  paid  for  October  31,  1901,  or  rather  the  bill  was 
made  out  for  then,  but  it  was  not  paid  until  the  14th  of  November. 
If  it  was  paid  in  November  I  suppose  it  was  a  bill  for  October — 
sent  by  Mr.  Jacobson,  25  cents.  On  the  2d,  Governor  Davis  at  Stutt- 
gart, sent  by  Mrs.  Davis,  25  cents.  On  the  2d,  message  to  ex-Gov- 
ernor Clark,  Morrilton,  sent  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  3d,  Mrs.  Ed  Ba- 
ton, Searcy,  sent  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  3d,  Judge  Bonds,  Russell- 
ville,  sent  by  blank,  40  cents — I  can't  make  out  who  sent  it;  3d, 
Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  does  not  indicate  who  sent  it,  40  cents; 
3d,  Governor  Clark,  Russellville,  does  not  state  who  sent  it,  55  cents. 
4th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  sent  by  Jacobson,  40  cents;  4th,  Sam 
Cohn,  Holly  Grove,  sent  by  Jacobson,  35  cents;  6th,  Judge  Maho- 
ney,  El  Dorado — don't  indicate  who  sent  it,  25  cents,  and  extended 
45  cents;  7th,  H.  K.  Toney,  Pine  Bluff — don't  say  who  sent  it,  yes, 
Jacobson — 25  cents;  8th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  sender's  name 
blank,  60  cents;  9th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  sender's  name  blank, 
25  cents;  llth,  Dr.  Mason,  Jefferson  Springs,  don't  say  who  it  was 
sent  by,  30  cents;  llth,  Newton,  Camden,  45  cents;  llth,  Judge  Davis, 
Russellville,  25  cents;  12th,  A.  B.  Gordon,  Prescott,  50  cents;  12th, 
Governor  Davis,  Conway,  sent  by  blank,  25  cents;  16th,  Rainwater, 
Morrilton,  sent  by  blank,  25  cents;  16th,  it  looks  like  Lankford, 
Pine  Bluff,  does  not  state  who  sent  by,  25  cents;  16th,  sheriff,  Ai- 
kansas  City,  30  cents,  and  it  is  extended  out  40  cents;  18th,  Judge 
Davis,  Russellville,  sender's  name  blank,  25  cents:  19th,  Judge 
Davis,  Russellville,  sender's  name  not  given,  25  cents;  19th,  I  guess 


—  220  — 

it  is  Whittaker,  Pine  Bluff,  25  cents;  22d,  Davis,  Russellville,  send 
er  blank,  25  cents;  25th,  Davis,  Russellville,  sender  not  given,  25 
cents;  26th,  Davis,  Russellville,  sender's  name  not  given,  25  cents, 
that  sheet  makes  $8.75. 

The  26th,  Barker,  Atkins,  40  cents;  28th,  Oldham,  Russellville, 
30  cents;  28th,  Davis,  Russellville,  30  cents;  28th,  Jelks,  Hot 
Springs,  30  cents;  total,  $11.30;  6th,  Jim  Richardson,  DeValls  Bluff, 
35  cents;  30th,  Davis,  Hazen,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  31st,  Davis,  at 
Hazen,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  30  cents,  making  a  total  of  $15.25. 

Q.    This  voucher  was  drawn  on  his  contingent  fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  paid  by  an  Auditor's  warrant? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  11-14,  to  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Tele- 
phone Company,  to  W.  W.  Doty,  collector. 

Q.    Now,  take  4967? 

A.  That  is  a  telephone  bill.  Bill  was  rendered  June  30th.  On 
June  3d,  I  suppose  it  is  Ed  Barker,  Atkins,  sent  by  Darr,  it  looks 
like,  30  cents;  4th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  30  cents; 
6th,  Mrs.  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  25  cents;  7th,  message,  Mrs. 
Davis  at  Russellville,  by  blank,  25  cents;  15th,  Governor  Davis,  by 
Mrs.  Davis,  30  cents;  15th,  Governor  Davis  at  Russellville  by  Jacob- 
son,  45  cents;  15th,  Mrs.,  looks  like  Spatch,  Spadra,  by  Mrs.  Davis, 
30  cents;  18th,  C.  C.  Reid,  Morrilton,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  22a, 
Senator  Price,  Stuttgart,  by  Davis,  25  cents;  24th,  Buck  Bloom, 
Pine  Bluff,  by  Davis,  35  cents;  24th,  Lankford,  Pine  Bluff,  by  Davis, 
25  cents;  24th,  Lytle,  Pine  Bluff,  by  Davis,  40  cents;  25th,  Watkins, 
Hot  Springs,  by  Watkins,  20  cents;  26th,  J.  V.  Walker,  Port  Smith, 
by  Davis,  70  cents;  26th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  25  cents; 
26th,  Barker,  Camden,  by  Davis,  45  cents;  28th,  John  Hatley,  Rus- 
sellville, by  Davis,  60  cents;  29th,  Rembert,  Helena,  by  Jacobson,  75 
cents.  Making  a  total  of  $7.20. 

Q.    How  was  that  bill  paid? 

A.  Paid  out  of  the  Governor's  contingent  fund  by  Auditor's 
warrant. 

Q.    You  say  it  was  paid  by  Auditor's  warrant? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  G.  W.  Murphy)  Did  you  receive  any  of  these  tele- 
phone messages? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    You  don't  know  anything  about  what  they  were  about? 

A.     No,  sir;   of  course  not. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Take  Voucher  No.  6599 


—  221  — 

A.  That  is  a  telephone  bill.  This  bill  is  dated  November  30th. 
1st  message,  Mrs.  Oldfield,  Cotton  Plant,  it  seems  to  be  only  5  cents, 
and  that  has  not  been  extended  out.  On  the  1st,  Judge  Davis,  Ru&- 
sellville,  30  cents;  2d,  A.  L.  Johnson,  Brinkley  and  Augusta,  by 
Governor  Davis,  35  cents;  3d,  Crenshaw,  Texarkana,  no  name  ol 
sender,  $1.05;  4th,  Governor  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Jacobson,  55 
cents;  4th,  to  Governor  Davis  at  Russellville,  by  Jacobson,  35  cents 
— no,  it  is  not  dittoed,  does  not  mention  who  sent  it.  On  the  4th, 
Jacobson  at  Russellville  by  blank,  25  cents;  5th,  Governor  Davis  at 
Russellville  by  blank,  30  cents;  5th,  Governor  Davis  at  Russellville 
by  Mrs.  Davis,  30  cents;  6th,  Governor  Davis  at  Russellville  by  Ja- 
cobson, 60  cents;  6th,  Governor  Davis  at  Russellville,  by  Jacobson, 
40  cents;  7th,  Colonel  Altheimer  at  Pine  Bluff  by  Davis,  25  cents; 
8th,  Brinklet  at  Atkins  by  blank,  30  cents;  9th,  Hatey  at  Russell- 
ville by  blank,  15  cents,  extended  out  25  cents;  10th,  Bolton  at  Con- 
way  by  blank,  25  cents;  10th,  0.  B.  Gordon  at  Prescott  by  blank,  25 
cents;  10th,  Richardson,  Texarkana,  no,  it  is  Conway,  by  blank,  25 
cents;  10th,  Sanders,  Texarkana,  by  blank,  45  cents;  llth,  Bullock, 
Russellville,  45  cents;  llth,  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30 
cents;  14th,  Newton,  Camden,  by  blank,  don't  seem  to  have  been  ex- 
tended;  16th,  Hart,  Dardanelle,  by  blank,  40  cents;  16th,  Moose, 
Russellville,  by  blank,  40  cents;  16th,  Davis  at  Russellville,  by 
blank,  40  cents;  16th,  Newton  at  Camden,  by  blank,  65  cents;  18th, 
Mayor,  Gurdon,  by  blank,  40  cents;  19th,  Davis,  Gurdon,  by  Jacob- 
son,  70  cents;  22d,  Manning,  Clarendon,  by  Jacobson,  35  cents;  22d, 
Davis,  Gurdon,  by  Jacobson,  60  cents;  22d,  Davis,  Gurdon,  by  Jacob- 
son,  40  cents;  23d,  Davis  at  Gurdon,  by  Jacobson,  40  cents;  23d, 
Davis,  at  Gurdon,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  40  cents;  24th,  Cooper,  W.  N., 
Malvern,  by  blank,  15  cents,  extended  30  cents;  24th,  Jim  Nelson,  Dar- 
danelle-Ola,  by  blank,  40  cents;  25th,  Newton,  Camden,  by  blank,  60 
cents;  25th,  Price,  Stuttgart,  by  blank,  45  cents;  25th,  Solomonson, 
Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  30  cents;  26th,  Newton,  Camden,  by  blank,  15 
cents,  extended  30  cents;  27th,  Davis  at  Russellville  by  blank,  45 
cents;  27th,  Pindall,  Arkansas  City,  by  blank,  30  cents;  27th,  Whit- 
more,  Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  25  cents;  28th,  Senator  Price,  Stuttgart, 
by  blank,  30  cents;  28th,  Newton,  Camden,  by  blank,  45  cents;  28th, 
Newton,  Camden,  by  blank,  60  cents;  28th,  Perriman,  Russellville, 
by  blank,  60  cents;  29th,  Buck  Bloom,  Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  25 
cents;  29th,  Senator  Price,  Stuttgart,  by  blank,  35  cents;  29th,  Davis, 
Russellville,  by  blank,  45  cents;  29th,  Wooten  at  Russellville  oy 
blank,  40  cents;  29th,  Jones,  Searcy,  by  blank,  30  cents;  29th,  Davis, 
Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  25  cents,  making  a  total  of  $30.70. 


—  222  — 

Q.  That  was  paid  by  Auditor's  warrant  on  the  contingent  fund, 
was  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  office  of  the  Governor,  Little  Rock,  December 
5,  1901 — just  like  the  other  receipts,  by  the  Southwestern  Telegrap* 
and  Telephone  Company,  by  H.  W.  Taylor,  Collector. 

Q.     No.  5566? 

A.  It  is  dated  August  31,  1901.  3d,  Miss  Bessie  Davis,  Russell- 
ville, by  blank,  40  cents;  5th,  R.  B.  Hogins,  Russellville,  by  blank. 
45  cents;  6th,  Meeks,  Russellville,  by  blank,  40  cents;  10th,  Henry, 
Redfield,  sent  by  blank,  25  cents;  10th,  Davis,  Russellville,  sent  oy 
blank,  25  cents;  llth,  Davis  at  Russellville,  sent  by  blank,  40  cents; 
12th,  Wallace  at  Russellville  sent  by  blank,  40  cents;  12th,  Collins, 
Texarkana-DeQueen,  sent  by  blank,  90  cents;  13th,  Davis  at  Russell- 
ville by  blank,  40  cents;  21st,  Judge  Bourland,  Ozark,  by  blank,  8u 
cents;  26th,  Governor  Davis,  Magnolia,  by  Watson,  60  cents;  27th, 
Ed  Homer,  Fort  Smith,  by  blank,  70  cents;  27th,  Sharp,  Darda- 
nelle,  25  cents,  extended  40  cents;  30th,  Mrs.  Davis,  Fort  Smith,  by 
blank,  35  cents;  30th,  Watkins,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30  cents; 
31st,  Sheriff,  Van  Buren,  by  blank,  85  cents;  31st,  Davis,  Russell- 
ville, by  blank,  25  cents;  5th,  seems  to  be  Epps  Brown,  Lonoke,  15 
cents,  extended  45;  8th,  Brown,  Lonoke,  15  cents,  extended  45  cents; 
12th,  Brown,  Lonoke,  by  blank,  50  cents;  14th,  Robinson,  Lonoke, 
by  blank,  30  cents;  16th,  Robinson,  Lonoke,  by  blank,  25  cents. 
That  ends  that,,  but  there  is  a  local  bill  in  that  account,  I  suppose — 
$11.55.  It  has  the  same  voucher  of  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  and 
Telephone  Company. 

Q.     Take  No.  5558. 

A.     It  is  a  Western  Union  Telegraph  bill. 

Q.    No.  6726? 

A.  That  is  voucher  for  expenses  to  St.  Louis— Louisiana  Pur- 
chase Exposition — $40. 

Q.    No.  6234? 

A.    That  is  a  Western  Union  bill. 

Q.     No.  6121? 

A.  That  is  a  telephone  bill.  Dated  September  30,  1901.  I  sup- 
pose it  is  a  claim  for  that  month.  1st,  Williams,  Hot  Springs,  send- 
er's name  blank,  30  cents;  3d,  Kirtley,  Texarkana,  by  blank,  75 
cents;  5th,  Ozark  Sanitarium,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  25  cents;  5th, 
J.  T.  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30  cents;  5th,  Davis,  Russellviile, 
by  blank,  55  cents;  6th,  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30  cents;  6th, 
No.  7,  I  reckon  it  is,  Russellville,  by  blank,  55  cents;  7th,  Davis,  Rus- 
sellville, by  blank,  30  cents;  7th,  Leigh,  Fordyce,  by  Jacobson,  40 


—  223  — 

cents;  7th,  L.  Altheimer,  Pine  Bluff,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  8th,  Car- 
ter, Texarkana,  by  blank,  75  cents;  9th,  T.  J.  Henderson,  England, 
by  blank,  25  cents;  9th,  Jim  Wilson,  Dardanelle-Ola,  by  blank,  30 
cents;  10th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  45  cents;  13th, 
Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  25  cents;  13th,  Stayton,  New- 
port, by  blank,  45  cents;  16th,  Governor  Davis,  Russellville,  oy 
blank,  45  cents;  16th,  Governor  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis, 
55  cents;  22d,  Bourland,  Ozark,  by  blank,  55  cents;  23d,  Mrs.  Ball, 
Russellville,  by  blank,  not  extended;  23d,  W.  J.  Stanfield,  Rison,  by 
blank,  50  cents;  24th,  Judge  Evans,  Ozark,  by  blank,  55  cents;  24th, 
Emma  Bonds,  Russellville,  by  blank,  25  cents;  25th,  Sheriff,  Cam- 
den,  by  Jacobson,  60  cents;  25th,  Rainwater,  Morrilton,  by  Jacob- 
son,  25  cents;  26th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  40  cents; 
27th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  25  cents;  27th,  Judge 
Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  70  cents;  28th,  Will  Lankford, 
Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  25  cents;  28th,  J.  E.  Martin,  Con  way,  by  blank, 
25  cents;  30th,  Governor  Davis  at  Atkins,  by  blank,  30  cents.  Mak- 
ing a  total  of  $12.25.  Paid  to  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Tele- 
phone Company — 

Q.  Paid  in  the  same  manner  of  Auditor's  warrant  on  the  con- 
tingent fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     No.  4560? 

A.    That  is  a  Western  Union  bill. 

Q.    4175? 

A.  Telephone  bill.  This  bill  is  dated  April  31.  2d,  Message  to 
Jobe,  Helena-Washington,  sent  by  blank,  $1.25;  5th,  Davis,  Russell- 
ville, sent  by  blank,  30  cents;  5th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  30 
cents;  7th,  Mrs.  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  55  cents;  9th,  Judge 
Elliott,  Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  25  cents;  9th;  Major  McCoy,  Pine  Bluff, 
by  blank,  25  cents;  llth,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  25  cents; 
18th,  Lancaster,  Dardanelle,  by  blank,  40  cents;  18th,  Judge  Davis, 
Russellville,  by  blank,  30  cents;  29th,  Garrison,  Texarkana,  by  Ja- 
cobson, 40  cents;  29th,  Tom  Cox,  Dardanelle,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents; 
29th,  Buck  Bloom,  Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  25  cents;  1st,  this  is  two 
or  three  bills  together,  it  seems.  Here  is  March  1st,  Sam  Thatch, 
Dardanelle,  by  blank,  30  cents;  4th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  40 
cents;  6th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  40  cents;  8th,  Bush,  Hel- 
ena, by  blank,  55  cents;  12th,  Sam  Thatch,  Dardanelle,  by  blank,  40 
cents;  14th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  45  cents;  15th,  Davis,  Rus- 
sellville, by  blank,  25  cents;  17th,  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  25 
cents;  18th,  John  Lee,  Fordyce,  by  blank,  40  cents;  18th,  Gordon, 


—  224  — 

Prescott,  by  blank,  50  cents;  18th,  Bush,  Helena,  by  Jacobson,  75 
cents;  21st,  Scroggins,  Helena-Nashville,  by  Jacobson,  75  cents, 
22d,  Mrs.  W.  A.  Ramsey,  Texarkana,  by  blank,  75  cents;  22a, 
Strong,  Pine  Bluff -Lake  Village,  by  blank,  30  cents;  23d,  Yancy,  Rus- 
sellville,  by  blank,  25  cents;  27th,  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30 
cents;  30th,  Ragin,  Prescott,  by  Jacobson,  70  cents;  30th,  Hotel  Ha- 
zel, Newport,  by  blank,  25  cents;  30th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank, 
25  cents;  30th,  Abrams,  Arkauelphia,  by  blank,  45  cents;  here  is 
one,  February  1,  Dr.  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by  Davis,  25  cents;  1st. 
John  Lee,  Fordyce,  by  Davis,  40  cents;  4th,  Jim  Barker,  Atkins,  by 
blank,  25  cents;  5th,  J.  M.  Barker,  Atkins,  by  Davis,  50  cents;  9th: 
Stainer,  Hope,  by  blank,  75  cents;  9th,  Rainwater,  Morrilton,  by 
blank,  25  cents;  10th,  Norwood,  Texarkana-Lockesburg,  by  blank, 
75  cents;  10th,  Armstrong,  Morrilton,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  llth, 
Bradley,  Plummerville,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  13th,  Rainwater, 
Morrilton,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  13th,  Gus  Jones,  Newport,  by 
blank,  35  cents;  16th,  Nichols,  Helena,  by  blank,  75  cents;  21st, 
Hardy,  Pine  Bluff-Monticello,  by  blank,  25  cents;  21st,  Cleveland, 
Atkins,  by  blank,  30  cents;  6th,  January,  Dr.  J. P.  Jelks,  Hot  Springs' 
by  Davis,  30  cents;  7th,  J.  M.  Barker,  Atkins,  by  Davis,  60  cents; 
8th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  40  cents;  9th,  Dixon,  Morrilton, 
by  Davis,  30  cents;  12th,  Hollis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  40  cents; 
October  7th,  Burnstein,  Newport,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  January 
19th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Governor  Davis,  40  cents;  20th, 
Dr.  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  25  cents;  26th,  Ed  Hanger,  Fort 
Smith,  by  blank,  70  cents;  26th,  A.  H.  Carinton,  Cabin  Creek,  by 
Davis,  60  cents;  28th,  B.  A.  Hardy,  Fordyce-Monticello,  by  Davis, 
45  cents.  Amount  of  voucher,  $27.10.  and  amount  of  warrant  the 
same,  paid  out  of  the  Governor's  contingent  fund  on  tne  same  blank 
as  the  others  already  read,  and  receipted  by  the  Southwestern  Tele- 
graph and  Telephone  Company. 

Q.     That  is  for  several  different  months? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  April,  March,  February  and  January. 

Q.     No.  5358? 

A.  This  is  not  a  telephone  voucher,  Mr.  Chairman,  it  is  for  a 
cut  of  James  F.  Rector,  $2.50. 

Q.    Lay  it  aside.     No.  5071? 

A.     That  is  a  Western  Union  voucher. 

Q.     No.  2407? 

A.  That  is  a  telephone  voucher,  and  it  is  dated  August  30. 
1901.  On  the  2d,  Mrs.  Yateman,  by  Eva  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  70 
cents;  3d,  Walker,  Newport,  by  Charles  Watkins,  60  cents;  4th. 


—  225  — 

Green,  Searcy,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  6th,  Navara,  Searcy,  by  Ja 
cobson,  45  cents;  6th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents; 
8th,  Lucy  Bush,  Russellville,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  8th,  Navara: 
Searcy,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  9th,  Jacobson^Hot  Springs,  by  Jacob 
son,  $1.50;  12th,  Jacobson,  Perryville,  by  Jacobson,  55  cents;  12th 
Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  60  cents;  13th,  Jacobson,  Hoi 
Springs,  by  Jacobson,  50  cents;  14th,  O.  B.  Gordon,  Prescott,  bj 
Davis,  80  cents;  14th,  Bourland,  Van  Buren,  by  Davis,  $1.10;  14th. 
Parks,  New  Lewisville,  by  Davis,  75  cents;  14th,  Belding,  Hot 
Springs,  by  Watkins,  35  cents;  15th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by 
Davis,  25  cents;  15th,  Judge  Mahoney,  El  Dorado,  by  Davis,  5C 
cents;  15th,  Laura  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  50  cents; 
15th,  Morrow,  Pine  Bluff,  by  Davis,  10  cents;  16th,  Buck  Bloom.. 
Pine  Bluff,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  18th,  Parks,  New  Lewisville,  by 
Davis,  $1.05;  19th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville, by  Davis, 60  cents;  19th. 
O.  B.  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  60  cents;  27th,  sheriff,  Van  Buren, 
by  Davis,  70  cents;  28th,  James  Merlew,  by  Watkins,  35  cents;  27th, 
Governor  Davis,  Prescott,  by  Jacobson,  80  cents;  27th,  Jacobson, 
Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  29th,  Emily  Walker,  Newport, 
by  Watkins,  60  cents;  29th,  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  60 
cents;  30th,  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  45  cents;  30th, 
Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  60  cents.  Making  a  total  of  $15.80.  But 
the  voucher  is  only  for  $5.35. 

Q.    What  is  the  sum  total  of  that  bill? 

A.  $15.80.  But  that  voucher  was  paid  on  that  bill  before,  I  ex- 
pect. I  certainly  only  paid  $5.35  on  it. 

Q.    What  is  the  number  of  that  voucher? 

A.     2407. 

Q.     Take  Voucher  No.  1628? 

A.  That  is  dated  May  31,  1900.  1st,  Judge  Mahoney,  El  Dorado, 
by  Davis,  70  cents;  1st,  Mrs.  Martin,  Austin,  by  Davis,  40  cents, 
1st,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  40  cents;  3d,  Rainwater,  Morril- 
ton,  by  blank,  25  cents;  3d,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  60  cents;  3a, 
Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  60  cents;  4th,  Judge  Mahoney,  Camdeis- 
El  Dorado,  by  Davis,  75  cents;  6th,  Hamby,  Prescott,  by  Jacobson, 
50  cents;  7th,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  70  cents;  8th,  Southern 
Club,  Hot  Springs,  by  Belding,  50  cents;  9th,  Miss  Jacobson,  Hot 
Springs,  by  Jacobson,  70  cents;  10th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by 
Davis,  25  cents;  12th,  Judge  John  Hatley,  Russellvile,  by  Davis.  45 
cents;  12th,  Judge  Bourland,  Ozark,  by  Davis,  70  cents;  16th.  .Mc- 
Coy, Pine  Bluff,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  16th,  sheriff,  Pine  Bluff,  by 
Davis,  25  cents;  17th,  Governor  Davis,  Big  Lake,  by  Davis,  30  cents; 
Testimony- 8 


17th,  Mrs.  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  18th,  Har- 
ris, Harrisburg,  by  Governor  Davis,  50  cents;  19th,  Gordon,  Prescoti, 
by  Davis,  60  cents;  24th,  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  90 
cents;  26th,  Lankford,.Pine  Bluff,  by  Davis,  30  cents;  26th,  Mrs.  Ja- 
cobson, Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobscn,  80  cents;  30th,  Mrs.  Jacobson, 
Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  31st,  Bob  Newton,  Camden,  by 
Davis,  25  cents;  31st,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  60  cents.  On  ^e 
6th  of  May,  I  suppose,  there  is  an  item  there  of  Hugh  Thompson, 
Carlisle.  Total  amount  of  the  bill  is  $13.20.  Now,  I  don't  know 
whether  that  includes  the  twenty-five  cents  on  the  other  sheet  or 
not,  but  the  amount  of  the  voucher  is  $16.55. 

Q.    What  was  the  amount  paid  by  the  State? 

A.     $16.55. 

Q.    That  is  the  amount  of  the  voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    How  is  it  that  you  paid  more  than  the  bill  called  for? 

A.  I  paid  what  was  certified  down.  I  didn't  examine  it;  I  just 
took  the  total  amount  of  the  statement  for  it,  and  I  paid  the  amount 
that  was  certified  down. 

Q.     It  may  have  been  a  mistake  in  the  addition? 

A.     It  may  have  been;  I  didn't  add  it  up. 

Q.     Take  No.  970? 

A.    That  is  a  Western  Union  voucher. 

Q.    No.  416? 

A.     Western  Union. 

Q.    No.  1775? 

A.  I  don't  see  that  voucher,  but  we  have  had  it  up  before;  u 
was  dated  June  14,  1902,  that  is  the  trip  to  Fayetteville  University. 

Q.     No.  2230? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  here  it  is.  It  is  a  telephone  voucner,  and  it  is 
dated  July  31.  7th,  Ben  Bourner,  Helena,  55  cents;  9th,  Mayor  Beld- 
ing,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30  cents;  9th,  Mrs.  Jacobson,  Hot 
Springs,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  9th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by 
blank,  40  cents;  12th,  Armstrong,  Morrilton,  by  Davis,  40  cents; 
15th,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  70  cents;  15th,  Hardy,  Prescott, 
by  blank,  50  cents;  16th,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  blank,  80  cents;  17th, 
Gordon,  Prescott,  by  blank,  60  cents;  17th,  Heatley,  Russellville.  by 
blank,  40  cents;  17th,  Foreman,  Texarkaria,  by  blank,  45  cents;  17th, 
Gordon,  Prescott,  by  blank,  50  cents;  17th,  Foreman,  Hot  Springs, 
by  blank,  25  cents;  18th,  Belding,  Benton,  by  blank,  25  cents;  18th, 
Williams,  Fort  Smith,  by  blank,  70  cents;  18th,  Belding  at  Benton, 
by  blank,  25  cents;  20th,  Jacobson  at  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  70 


—  227  — 

cents;  21st,  Senator  Price,  Stuttgart,  by  blank,  30  cents;  23d,  Gov- 
ernor Davis,  Stuttgart,  by  Jacobson,  35  cents;  24th,  Governor  Davis, 
Brinkley,  by  Jacobson,  55  cents;  24th,  Mrs.  Jacobson, Hot  Springs, by 
Jacobson,  90  cents;  25th,  McMullan,  Arkadelphia,  by  Jacobson,  40 
cents;  25th,  Martin,  Conway,  by  blank,  10  cents;  25th,  McMullan, 
Arkadelphia,  by  Jacobson,  40  cents;  27th,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  blank, 
80  cents;  29th,  Martin,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  60  cents;  31st,  Ja- 
cobson, Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  60  cents;  17th,  blank  by  Governor 
Davis,  25  cents;  31st,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  30  cents, 
there  is  something  there,  I  don't  know  what  it  is;  31st,  Gordon, 
Prescott,  by  blank,  70  cents.  Total  amount  of  bill,  $13.05,  or  seems 
to  be,  and  there  is  the  local  bill  added  to  that. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Adding  them  both  togetner  would  be 
how  much? 

A.    To  the  $13.05,  adding  this  other  voucher,  makes  $19.65. 

Q.     There  was  a  little  over  $ deducted,  wasn't  there? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  What  is  the  number  of  that  local 
'phone? 

A.    Now,  I  declare,  I  don't  know. 

Q.    Can  you  find  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  the  directory  would  show. 

Q.     That  don't  show  it? 

A.  No,  sir;  just  to  bills  payable,  telephone  Governor's  office. 
Debtor  to  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Telephone  Company, 
from  the  1st  of  June  to  July  31,  1901.  That  is  the  June  bill.  I 
think  the  old  'phone  rents  for  $3  and  the  new  'phone  for  $3.50,  I  am 
not  positive,  but  I  am  pretty  sure  that  that  is  the  rental  of  the 
old  'phone. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Funk)   How  long  have  you  been  Deputy  Auditor? 

A.  Why,  two  years  the  18th  of  January  last,  I  think.  Since 
January  18,  1901. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  What  was  the  number  of  that  last 
voucher  that  you  read? 

A.     2230. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Colonel  Colquitt— just  let  me  have 
one  of  these  vouchers,  please  sir.  Now,  what  is  your  duty  in  regard 
to  this— it  is  your  duty  to  audit  that  account,  is  it  not — that  is  the 
Auditor's  duty? 

A.    Well,  yes;  I  suppose  so,  Governor. 

Q.    What  do  you  mean  by  auditing  an  account? 

A.    Well,  I  presume — 


—  228  — 

Q.     Just  pay  it,  no  matter  what  it  is? 
A.    No,  sir;  I  have  turned  several  of  them  down. 
Q.    Well,  what  do  you  mean  by  auditing  an  account? 
A.    I  mean  by  auditing  it  to  see  if  it  is  drawn  out  of  the  proper 
appropriation,  I  do  not  consider  that  it  is  my  duty  to  add  it  up. 

Q.  Is  it  not  the  duty  of  the  Auditor  to  see  that  the  demands 
for  money  to  be  drawn  is  not  for  improper  purposes — is  not  that 
one  of  the  duties  of  the  Auditor  in  auditing  an  account? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  instance,  I  would  present  a  voucher  there  for  twenty- 
five  pounds  of  flour  and  fifty  pounds  of  bacon,  would  you  pay  that? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     Out  of  the  contingent  fund? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  You  then  audit  the  account  for  that  purpose;  is  that  your 
understanding  of  auditing  an  account? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  that  for  the  purpose  of  seeing  if  the  items  are  prop- 
er items  to  be  paid  out  of  the  contingent  fund? 

A.  If  the  items  are  subject  to  be  paid  out  of  the  contingent 
fund. 

Q.  Then  you  pass  on  it  in  reference  to  the  correctness  of  the 
voucher  and  issue  your  warrant? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  at  the  time  you  did  that  you  must  have  thought  that 
it  was  a  proper  charge  to  be  made  against  the  contingent  fund,  or 
it  would  have  been  turned  down,  didn't  you? 

A.  To  be  perfectly  frank,  Governor,  I  pay  very  little  attention, 
you  might  say,  to  the  issuing  of  these  warrants — 

Q.    But  it  is  your  duty,  isn't  it — 

A.  I  take  it  for  granted  that  they  are  correct.  I  thought  those 
charges  were  right  then  and  I  think  they  are  yet. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  to  say  that  you  thought  at  that  time  that 
that  was  a  proper  charge  against  the  contingent  fund? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  I  did. 

Q.     Then  you  audited  that  account  and  issued  a  warrant  on  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  if  it  had  been  an  improper  charge  you  would  not 
have  allowed  it? 

A.  I — no,  sir.  I  took  it  for  granted  that  whatever  is  certified 
down  for  contingent  expenses,  especially  by  the  head  01  that  depart- 
ment, is  a  just  expense — that  was  the  way  I  looked  at  it  and  didn't 
scrutinize  the  accounts  very  closely. 


—  229  -- 

Q.    You  judged  the  law  correctly  for  once. 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  what  I  considered  my  duty. 

Q.  And  if  that  was  wrong,  if  there  was  an  improper  charge  on 
that  account  that  was  paid  out  of  this  fund — if  there  was  an  im- 
proper charge  you  have  simply  let  an  improper  charge  slip  through 
and  issued  a  warrant  on  it,  have  you?  You  don't  mean  to  say  that 
you  would  knowingly  let  an  improper  charge  go  through  there,  do 
you? 

A.     I  did  not  consider  it  an  improper  charge  if  it  went  through. 

Q.    You  thought  then  at  that  time  that  it  was  a  proper  charge? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  did  not  examine  the  account  very  closely,  and 
even  if  I  had  examined  it  I  might  not  have  known  that  it  was  an 
improper  charge. 

Q.  Then  you  examined  it  at  the  time  to  see  if  it  was  a  proper 
charge  to  be  paid  out  of  the  contingent  fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir— 

Q.  Then  you  did  think  at  that  time  that  it  was  a  proper 
charge? 

A.    Yes,  sir.     If  it  had  not  been  1  would  have  turned  it  down. 

Q.  If  it  was  an  improper  charge,  then,  you  have  improperly 
audited  this  account  and  issued  a  warrant  that  you  ought  not  to 
have  issued — 

A.    Yes,  sir;  if  there  was  an  improper  Service. 

Q.  Now,  have  I  ever  got  a  dollar  out  of  my  contingent  funa 
without  an  Auditor's  warrant? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  No,  sir;  that  is  a  fact;  I  can't  touch  the  funds  without  a 
voucher  passing  through  the  Auditor's  office — 

A.    No,  sir.     I  don't  think  it  is  possible.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Don't  the  statute  require  you  to  stop  all  Improper  items? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Yes,  sir;  and  that  statute  makes  the  duty  of  the  Auditor 
very  plain.  Now,  I  couldn't  have  gotten  a  dollar  out  of  the  trea&- 
ury  except  through  an  Auditor's  warrant,  could  I? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  when  that  claim  passed  the  muster  of  your  office,  its 
passing  through  meant  that  you  thought  it  was  a  proper  charge? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  why  is  this  change  of  front  in  the  Auditor's  office  on 
this  subject — what  has  caused  the  Auditor's  office  to  change  front? 

A.     Was  nothing — 

Q.  Then  if  there  was  a  warrant  issued  on  that  voucher,  you 
issued  it  because  you  thought  it  was  proper? 


—  230  — 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  tell  me  that  you  did  that  for  me — 

A.  If  you  certified  that  down,  of  course  I  don't  see  why  I  shoulu 
have  questioned  it,  for  it  was  your  judgment  on  it,  and  I  was  not 
in  a  position  to  know  whether  it  was  wrong. 

Q.  And  you  state  that  you  would  issue  a  warrant  on  that  evi- 
dence? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  did? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  that  you  meant  by  that  that  was  a  proper  charge? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  you  say  you  do  now? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  do. 

Q.  Now,  Colonel  Colquitt,  turn  to  the  Auditor's  books  showing 
the  report  of  Governor  Jones,  will  you  please.  That  was  in  1899 
and  1900? 

A.     Here  it  is. 

Q.  Turn  to  the  contingent  fund  and  see  how  much  he  spent 
in  two  years,  the  sum  total,  for  telegrams  and  telephones.  Just  add 
it  up  and  give  us  the  sum  total,  if  you  please.  Governor  Jones'  last 
two  years? 

A.  The  Western  Union  Telegraph  Company,  $236.35 — there  was 
a  deficiency — 

Q.  Didn't  Mr.  Jacobson  and  Dr.  Moore  come  down  in  your  office 
and  figure  up  the  deficiency  that  went  to  the  Governor's  office,  and 
wasn't  it  $106? 

A.     They  were  down  there,  but  I  don't  know  the  amount. 

Q.  Don't  you  know,  or  don't  you  remember,  that  they  made 
the  total  $1,718.39? 

A.  I  know  that  it  was  reported  to  be  something  over  a  hundred 
dollars. 

Q.  $128.24  is  what  is  shown  according  to  the  books,  and,  in  in- 
cluding that  you  have  in  this  deficiency  bill  $543.09  for  two  years 
for  telegrams  and  telephones? 

A.     Yes,  sir— 

Q.  And  if  you  include  the  $106  with  the  telegraph  and  tele- 
phone account  it  would  make  it  $649.09? 

Q.     Now,  what  is  the  sum  total  of  my  bills  for  two  years? 

Governor  Davis — I  will  ask  Colonel  Colquitt  to  go  to  his  office 
and  get  Voucher  No.  6159. 

Q.     Mr.  Colquitt,  before  you  read  that  voucher,  turn  to  my  con- 


—  231  — 

tingent  fund  and  find  the  amount  I  have  spent  for  telegrams  and 
telephones? 

A.  Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Telephone  Company,  $387.76; 
Western  Union,  $202.43,  making  a  total  of  $590.19. 

Q.  Now,  let  us  go  back  to  1883;  turn  to  the  Governor's  contin- 
gent fund  and  see  how  much  was  appropriated  to  Governor  Berry, 
and  see  how  much  money  he  spent  and  tell  me? 

A.  There  was  $5,000  appropriated,  and  amount  appropriated 
for  deficiencies  $37.75,  making  $5,037.75. 

Q.  For  two  years,  how  much  did  he  spend  out  of  his  contingent 
fund? 

A.  He  had  a  balance  of  $2,909.54;  that  from  the  total  amount 
appropriated  shows  the  amount  he  spent. 

Q.  Well,  how  much  would  that  be?  Over  two  thousand  dollars, 
wouldn't  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir.   " 

Q.     And  my  contingent  fund  was  only  $2,000,  wasn't  it? 

A.    I  think  so. 

Q.  Just  read  that  letter  and  voucher  of  Governor  Eagle's.  You 
say  you  haven't  the  vouchers  of  Governor  Berry — that  far  back? 

A.  They  are  there  somewhere,  but  they  are  out  of  pocket,  ana 
[  will  have  to  look  further  to  find  them. 

Mr.  Colquitt  reads  letter,  as  follows: 

"LITTLE  ROCK,  ARK.,  December  22,  1892. 

"A  telephone  at  my  residence  was  a  necessity  in  the  discharge  of 
my  official  duty.  It  has  also  been  used  by  my  family.  Having  paid 
for  the  entire  service  from  my  private  means,  and  knowing  it  to  be 
but  a  just  account,  for  half  the  service  is  made  against  the  State — 
$78.  "JAMES  P.  EAGLE,  Governor." 

Q.    Read  the  certificate? 

A.  Executive  Office,  Little  Rock,  November  21,  1892.  State  of 
Arkansas,  due  to  James  P.  Eagle,  for  one-half  amount  paid  for  resi- 
dence telephone  rents  from  October  1,  1889,  to  December  30,  1892, 
$78.  From  October  1,  1899,  to  the  31st  of  December,  1892,  39  months 
at  $4  per  month,  equals  $156.  One-half  of  $156,  equals  $78.  I  certify 
that  the  above  amount  is  correct  and  payable  out  of  the  contingent 
fund  appropriated  to  pay  contingent  expenses.  Signed,  James  P. 
Eagle,  by . 

Received  a  warrant  from  the  Auditor  for  the  above  amount  on 
the  20th  day  of  December,  1892.  James  P.  Eagle,  Governor. 


—  232  — 

Q.  That  was  for  rent  on  a  private  telephone  at  Governor 
Eagle's  private  house? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  it  so  appears. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  Governor  Jones  had  similar  use  of  a 
private  telephone  at  his  house? 

A.    I  can't  say  of  my  own  knowledge.    I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Now,  just  take  this  book,  Colonel — it  is  the  report  showing 
how  that  committee  spent  their  contingent  fund — the  Ways  and 
Means  Committee  of  the  United  States  Senate.  Just  read  througn 
there  some  and  down  to  here? 

A.    June  16th,  number  of  Voucher,  10 — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  What  ift  that  you  are  reading  from, 
Governor? 

Governor  Davis— It  is  the  report  of  the  Ways  and  Means  Com- 
mittee of  the  Senate  showing  how  they  construed  their  contingent 
fund. 

Colonel  Colquitt,  continuing — June  3d,  two  cans  military  dress- 
ing, 50c,  $1;  June  8,  1,000  2  grain  quinine  pills,  $2.50;  June  8,  1,000 
3  grain  quinine  pills,  $3.50;  June  8,  2  bottles  bromo-seltzer,  at  75c, 
$1.50;  June  8,  2  bottles  Abbey's  salts,  at  75c,  $1.50;  June  16,  52 
grains  of  -  — ,  at  15c,  $7.80;  June  21,  1,000  2  grain  quinine  pills, 
$2.50;  June  21,  1,000  3  grain  quinine  pills,  $3.50;  2  bottles  bromo- 
cafine  at  85c,  $1.70;  1  pound  of  brown  mixture  lozenges,  50c;  1  dozen 
boxes  Smith  Brothers'  cough  drops,  50c;  1  dozen  mentholated  cough 
drops,  50c;2  large  bottles  caphalgine,  85c,  $1.70;  1  pint  sweet  oil, 
15c;  1  dozen  lamp  wicks,  lOc;  1  graduater,  20c;  5  gallons  witch 
hazel  at  85c,  $4.25;  4  7-8  gallons  alcohol  at  $2.70,  $13.16;  1  gallon 
Coke's  Dandruff  Cure,  $4.50;  5  gallons  wood  alcohol,  $5;  1,000  2 
grain  quinine  pills,  $2.50;  1,000  3  grain  quinine  pills,  $3.50;  1  ounce 
antikamnia  tablets,  $1.25;  2  large  bottles  caphalgine  at  85c,  $1.70; 
2  large  bottles  Abbey's  salts  at  75c,  $1.50;  2  large  bottles  bromo- 
seltzer  at  75c,  $1.50;  1  whisk  broom,  50c;  6  cases  Babbitt's  soap  at 
$4.25,  $25.50;  1  dozen  bottles  Hunyadi  water,  $3;  1  pound  soda  mint 
tablets,  70c;  3  dozen  Baby  Elite  shoe  polish  at  $1,  $3;  100  one-tenth 
grain  calomel  tablets,  25c. 

Q.  (By  Judge  Merriman)  Colonel  Colquitt,  what  is  that  you  are 
reading  from? 

Governor  Davis — Mr.  Chairman,  that  is  the  report  of  the  United 
States  Senate  Ways  and  Means  Sub-Committee. 

Q.    That  was  under  a  Republican  administration,  wasn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    but  this   sub-committee  was  a  Democratic  body. 


—  233  — 

Mr.  Jones  aiid  Colonel  Berry  and  other  Democrats  composed  that 
sub-committee. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  We  would  like  to  ask  if  Governor  Davis 
investigated  these  proceedings  before  he  spent  his  contingent  fund? 

A.     (By  Governor  Davis)  That  is  none  of  your  business. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Means  Committee 


ON 


Friday,  March  6, 


1903 


INDEX. 

LETTER   FROM   ELLIOTT. 
COLONEL    COLQUITT. 


—  237  — 

Proceedings  Friday,  March  6. 
Chairman  Merriman  read  the  following  letter: 

"Wabbaseka,  Ark.,  March  3,  1903. 
"Judge  Merriman,  Little  Rock,  Ark.: 

"Dear  Sir — I  know  the  Cummins  place  and  have  been  very 
much  interested  in  your  investigation.  It  is  very  strange  to  me 
that  record  evidence  on  the  Cummins  place  has  been  in  existence 
now  for  twenty-three  years,  settling  conclusively  one  main  feature 
in  value  of  the  place,  that  no  one  has  ever  mentioned  it.  If  we 
assume  that  board  who  purchased  Cummins  place  acted  in  bad 
faith  then  it  is  very  clear  that  they  would  not  bring  it  up,  and 
since  they  are  accused  of  exercising  very  bad  judgment  they  could 
not  be  expected  to  bring  it  up  and  condemn  themselves.  This 
would  not  be  human  nature.  But  as  it  affects  over  half  of  land 
embraced  in  Cummins  purchase  it  is  rather  remarkable  that  the 
other  side  does  not  bring  it  up.  There  are  some  people  who  think 
that  Wes  Crockett  and  Monroe  ought  to  have  told  what  they 
are  now  telling  long  ago,  and  some  think  Davis  was  counting  very 
surely  on  Crockett  when  he  went  so  far  as  to  stipulate  in  his 
requirement  that  Monroe  was  to  go  whichever  way  he  and 
Crockett  went;  although  people  think  Monroe  did  wrong  he  has 
sympathy  of  the  people  to  a  very  large  extent,  but  they  do  think 
that  Crockett  should  not  have  kept  the  thing  in  the  dark  even  if 
he  had  to  have  lost  the  second  term,  he  being  a  young  man.  I 
have  always  done  all  I  could  to  defeat  Davis,  and  partly  through 
my  influence  in  my  township  the  vote  was  27  Rector,  9  Davis,  but 
honesty  compels  me  to  side  with  him  in  purchase  of  Cummins 
place.  I  own  900  acres  of  Arkansas  Delta  lands,  and  am  a  cotton 
planter  and  hope  the  state  will  reject  the  sale.  I  wish  to  dis- 
claim any  desire  to  cast  any  reflection  on  the  board  in  the  purr 
.  chase  of  the  place,  but  there  are  many  people  who  claim,  and  I 
think  a  large  majority,  that  the  price  was  enormous  and  in  the 
minds  of  those  who  hold  the  price  enormous  (a  part  of  them), 
the  suspicion  has  been  raised  and  sometimes  asserted,  that  there 
was  something  wrong  in  the  purchase.  I'  will  be  in  Little  Rock 
on  the  5th  or  6th  and  would  like  to  give  you  a  list  of  questions 
[  would  like  to  have*  asked,  if  the  physical  features  of  the  Cum- 
mins place  are  to  be  inquired  into.  These  questions  will  be  based 
upon  the  record  evidence. 

"Yours  very  truly, 

"R.   L.    ELLIOTT. 


—  238  — 

"I  am  glad  to  know  that  the  son  of  my  lifetime  friend,  Judge 
William  S.  McCain,  is  making  a  fine  young  lawyer." 

COL.  J.  C.  COLQUITT,  resumes  the  chair  as  a  witness. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Colonel  Colquitt,  I  wish  you  would 
just  read  a  little  bit  further  from  this  report  of  the  Ways  and 
Means  Committee  in  the  senate.  There  is  a  long  list  of  items, 
just  run  over  so  that  we  can  see  what  that  is  for.  * 

A.  (Reading  from  report)  Engraving  100  cards  and  plates  at 
$1.75.  This  was  on  the  2d  of  April.  Engraving  100  cards  and 
plates,  $1.75.  Engraving  100  cards  and  plates,  $1.75;  that  was 
on  the  5th  of  April.  Stamping  250  envelopes,  50  cents;  same  date. 
250  papers,  50  cents;  and  on  the  6th,  engraving  300  cards — 

Q.  Well,  that  whole  column  relates  to  engraving  cards  and 
such  as  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  turn  right  here,  Mr.  Colquitt,  and  read  item  No.  22 
there  down  this  far. 

A.  July  19,  item  No.  22,  J.  H.  Berry,  for  commutation  of  allow- 
ance for  stationery  and  newspapers  for  the  fiscal  year  ending 
June  30,  1902,  $66.71. 

Q.  Shows  that  he  got  that  matter?  Now,  Colonel  Colquitt, 
just  read  that  column;  it  relates  to  what? 

A.  The  item  of  the  whole  column  relates  to  memorandum 
books. 

Q.     Entirely? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  does  this  column  relate  to? 

A.     Relates  to  penknives. 

Q.     About  how  many? 

A.  There  is  1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  8,  9,  10,  11  11%,  12,  12y2,  13 
dozen  penknives. 

Q.     What  does  this  column  relate  to,  pocket  books,  don't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   and  card  cases,  combination  pocket  books— 

Q.     What  does  this  column  relate  to,  pocket  books,  too,  don't  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  card  cases,  pocket  books,  purses,  letter 
cases,  writing  tablet,  ink  stand,  desk  eraser— 

Q.     This  column,  I  believes,  relates  to  scrap  books? 

A.  Yes.  sir;  Mark  Twain  scrap  books,  two  dozen  Mark  Twain 
scrap  books. 

Q.     This  is  literature.     What  is  this  item,  No.  33? 

A.  For  Literary  Digest  furnished  James  K.  Jones,  from 
January  1,  1901,  to  January  31,  1901,  $3.00. 


—  239  — 


Q.     And  paid  for  out  of  the  contingent  fund. 
A.     Yes,  sir. 


A. 
Q. 
A. 


01 


Here  is  this  item,  photograph  album? 
Yes,  sir. 

And  read  this,  that  relates  to  pocket  books  also,  don't  it? 
Yes,   sir;    it  is  pocket  books,   8  pass  cases,  $1.50;    6  pass 
one  pair  of  scissors,  one  card  case  and  so  on. 

Q.     Here  you  may  read  this  line  of  items — read  here? 

A.  One  gallon  Neat's  foot  oil,  $1.00;  9  pound  horse  powders, 
at  30  cents,  $2.70;  1  bottle  gargling  oil,  20  cents;  1  bottle  Mustang 
Liniment,  75  cents;  5  pounds  petrolatum,  at  12  cents,  60  cents; 
1  gallon  castor  oil,  one  bottle  Mustang  Liniment,  and  so  on. 

Q.     (By    Colonel    Murphy)    Colonel    Colquitt,    in   reading   over 
these  books,  I  want  to  know  if  you  have  found,  or  did  you  find  a 
charge  for  a  telephone  message  sent  to  Flave  Carpenter,  to  return 
lark  county  for  Davis — and  Jones — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  find  in  that  report  with  reference  to  Jones' 
account  for  telephones  and  telegrams  the  last  two  years  of  his 
term,  what  amount  was  paid  out  for  telegrams? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  notr  know  as  a  matter  of  fact  that  the  Spanish- 
American  war  was  then  going  on  and  that  he  did  considerable  tele- 
graphing and  telephoning  in  relation  to  that  matter? 

A.     Why— 

Q.  I  am  asking  about  Governor  Dan  W.  Jones,  I  mean  if  he 
was  telegraphing  and  telephoning  considerably  in  connection  with 
the  troops  that  was  to  be  furnished  by  the  State  of  Arkansas 
for  that  war? 

A.     Well,  I  dont  know  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.     For  the  last  two  months  of  his  administration? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  overflow  came  during  the  last  two 
years  of  his  administration  and  that  he  was  telephoning  and 
telegraphing  to  the  overflowed  district  and  in  sending  aid  and 
relief  and  to  get  information  in  regard  to  it? 

A.  Well,  I  know  that  he  was  working  on  that,  but  I  haven't 
examined  his  telegraph  and  telephone  vouchers. 

Q.  Have  you  examined  his  expenditure  of  his  contingent  fund 
for  the  first  two  years  in  relation  to  telegraph  and  telephones? 

A.  I  never  have  noticed  that  a  great  deal,  Colonel;  I  would 
Just  look  at  the  footings  in  making  out  the  warrant. 


—  240  « 

Q.  Can  you  tell  the  difference  in  the  deficiencies  between 
Governor  Davis'  expenditures  during  the  first  two  years  of  his 
term  of  the  first  two  years  of  Governor  Jones' — the  first  two  years 
of  his  term  was  when  there  was  no  war  and  no  overflow? 

A.  I  could  by  referring  to  the  vouchers  or  the  Auditor's 
report. 

Q.     How  long  would  it  take  you  to  do  it? 

A.  It  wouldn't  take  me  a  great  while.  I  don't  know  that  I 
can  lay  my  hand  on  it  right  away. 

Q.  Now  you  have  testified  as  to  one  particular  voucher  of 
Governor  Eagle  during  one  of  his  terms? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  that  was  the  first  of  the  second 
term? 

A.  I  don't  know,  sir.  I  never  noticed  the  voucher  closely. 
I  just  read  it;  but  it  was  rendered,  that  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  tell  this  committee  what  his  expenditures 
out  of  his  contingent  fund  were  for  telephone  and  telegraph  mes- 
sages during  the  last  two  years  of  his  term? 

A.     I  can't  without  referring  to  the  report. 

Q.     How  long  would  it  take  you? 

-  A.     It  wouldn't  take  long.  % 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  tell  the  committee  what  his  expenditures 
on  this  account  were  during  the  first  two  years  of  his  term? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  cannot  without  referring  to  the  records. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  tell  this  committee  whether  these  accounts, 
from  which  you  have  read  in  the  report  of  the  United  States  Senate, 
were  approved  or  disapproved? 

A.     I  cannot. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  tell  the  committee  whether  it  is  an  excuse 
for  one  man  to  misappropriate  the  funds  because  another  man  or 
another  body  has  done  it? 

(Governor  Davis  objected  to  the  foregoing  question,  and  the 
Chair  sustained  his  objections.) 

•  Q.'    Now,    with    reference    to    Governor    Berry's   term,    do    you 
know  as  a  matter  of  fact  that  during  his  term  other  expenses  that 
he  •  had  incurred,  or  that  was  incurred  in  this  executive  office  had 
to  be  paid  out  of  the  contingent  fund? 

A..  I.  know  thiB,  Judge — this  is  my  recollection, ,  and  I  am 
pretty  sure  that  I  arn  correct — that  only  the  salaries  were  provided 
for,,  and  then .  there  , was  >  an  appropriation  for  all.  other  expenses 
of  the  Governor's  office.  It.  was  not  itemized,  it  was  just  .an- appro- 


—  241  — 

priation  to  cover  all  other  items  for  salary  provided  for.  But  all 
expenses  of  the  governor's  office  were  just  provided  for  in  one 
appropriation.  They  were  all  bunched  up  together. 

Q.  Do  you  know  as  a  matter  of  fact  that  all  the  expenses  in- 
curred in  connection  with  his  office  during  his  two  terms  were 
paid  out  of  his  own  contingent  fund? 

A.  That,  I  think,  will  show,  Judge,  from  the  reports,  and  T 
would  have  to  refer  to  the  records  to  see. 

Q.     Did  they  have  a  chair  fund  or  a  repair 'fund  for  his  office? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  of  anything  of  that  sort.  It  has 
just  come  to  my  recollection  and  so  for  fear  I  will  let  it  slip  out  of 
my  mind,  in  addition  to  the  salary  there  was  allowed  $1,000  for 
rent  of  mansion,  but  all  other  expenses  not  therein  provided  for 
was  so  much  appropriated  for. 

Q.  So  that  his  salary  and  his  mansion  rent  was  all  that  was 
provided  for  except  what  is  embraced  in  the  contingent  fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Governor  Berry  didn't  keep  his  fam- 
ily here,  did  he? 

A.     1  don't  know,  Governor. 

Q.     He  drew  the  mansion  rent,  didn't  he? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    he  drew  the  mansion  rent. 

Q.    Governor  Fishback  didn't  keep  his  family  here,  did  he? 

A.     I  don't  know  that  either. 

Q.     But  he   drew  the  mansion  rent,  didn't  he? 

A.     I  would  presume  so,  although  I  never  looked  it  up. 

Q.  (By  Charles  Jacobson)  Will  you  please  examine  this 
toucher,  No.  195,  and  state  to  the  committee  when  it  was  drawn 
and  for  what  purpose? 

A;  Well  this  is  a  warrant  that  was  drawn  by  Governor  Jones, 
January  17,  1900,  for  $10.50. 

Q.     Read  out  for  what  purpose  it  was  drawn  for? 

A.  To  a  horse  and  R.  T.  buggy,  $2.50.  September  25,  horse 
and  R.  T.  buggy,  $2.50.  November  15,  saddle  horse,  $2.50.  June  22, 
hc-rse  and  buggy,  $3!.00.  Total  amount,  $10.50. 

Q.  Please  read  this  voucher,  Governor  Davis  has  referred — 
Mr.  Colquitt,  what  is  that,  is  that  a  telephone  message? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   it  seems  to  be  two  receipts  for  rental  of  'phone. 

Q.  Does  the  bill  there  disclose  that  it  was  a  local  'phone  at 
the  Governor's  residence — Governor  Jones'  residence?  That  is 
what  I  wanted  to  ask  you  about  that — they  have  sent  one  for  Gov- 
ernor Dan  W.  Jones,  one  for  the  office  and  one  for  the  residence? 


—  242  — 

A.  Yes,  sir;  one  for  the  Governor's  office  and  the  other  is  to 
/ones,  Governor  Dan  W. 

Q.     They  are  for  the  same  month,  are  they? 

A.     Yes,   sir;    same  month — 31st. 

Q.  Now,  Colonel,  this  is  voucher  No.  1111;  what  does  that 
disclose? 

A.  Here  is  one  bill,  Jones,  Governor  Dan  W.,  March  31,  rental 
of  telephone  instrument  May  30,  $3;  April  1,  $6.00;  both  paid  out 
of  the  contingent  fund  on  the  same  voucher. 

Q.  This  voucher,  No.  5953,  what  does  the  body  of  that  say 
that  was  drawn  for  and  for  what  amount? 

A.     Hire  a  horse  to  draw  son  to  Major  Schaer's  funeral,  $5.00. 

Q.     This  is  voucher  No.  5419;   what  was  that  for? 

A.  Playing  drum  at  Dewey  celebration,  $3.00.  State  .making 
bond,  70  cents. 

Q.  Here  is  voucher  No.  5428;  that  was  for  what  and  what  was 
it  drawn  out  of? 

A.  Potash  Sulphur  water,  $4.50.  A.  C.  Read  by  S.  Mayer, 
Potash  water  for  September,  1899,  $4.50. 

Q.     Take  this  voucher,  No.  5970:  what  is  it  for? 

A.     Lodging  sixteen  men — band  it  seems — $8.00. 

Q.    This  voucher,  No.  5063;  what  is  that  for? 

A.  Potash  Sulphur  water,  $5.15,  September  5,  bought  of  A.  C. 
Read. 

Q.  Here  is  voucher  No.  4568;  what  is  that  and  what  is  the 
amount  of  it? 

A.     Expenses,  trouble  and  so  on  in  reference  to — 

Q.  Here  is  No.  3534,  Western  Union  bill;  what  is  the  amount 
of  that  bill,  Colonel? 

A.  May  31,  1899,  message  sent  by  and  received  by  this  office 
for  March,  1899,  April,  1899,  February,  1899— three  months,  $51.55. 

Q.  Here  is  voucher  4709,  Western  Union;  what  is  the  amount 
of  that  bill? 

A.     Bill,  Fort  Smith,  Washington,  and  so  on,  $3.46. 

Q.  Here  is  voucher  No.  6094;  what  are  the  items  shown  on 
that  bill? 

A.  This  is  a  Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Telephone  bill. 
Long  distance,  rental  for  the  month  of  November,  1899,  $4.85,  dated 
December  1,  1899.  November  3,  calling  for  coal,  Dardanelle,  40 
cents;  6th,  Manning,  Clarendon,  95  cents;  10th  November,  25  cents; 
10th  November,  25  cents;  12th,  Manning,  45  cents;  15th,  Jones, 
Memphis,  60  cents;  16th,  Mrs.  Davis,  Dardanelle,  40  cents;  17th, 


—  243  — 

New, • — ,  25  cents;  20th,  same,  45  cents;  21st,  same,  35  cents; 

27th,  same,  45  cents;  29th,  same,  45  cents;  making  a  total  of  $4.85. 

Q.  Here  is  voucher  No.  5594  and  5208;  will  you  kindly  state 
what  they  are? 

A.  This  is  dated  September  14,  expenses  trip  to  St.  Louis  to 
attend  the  Anti-trust  Convention  called  by  Governor  Sayers,  $75.00. 
October  16,  1899,  share  of  expense  printing  the  proceedings  at  St. 
Louis,  $20. 

Q.     Here  is  voucher  No.  5962;  please  read  that? 

A.  Expenses,  trip  to  Memphis,  to  Western  Waterways  Conven- 
tion, November  14  and  15,  1899,  in  the  interest  of  the  State,  $17.00. 

Q.  Here  is  voucher  No.  5506;  please  read  that  and  the  bill 
attached? 

A.  Jones,  Dan  W.,  Governor,  rent  of  'phone,  $2.35;  Governor's 
office,  rental  of  'phone,  $4.00. 

Q.  Colonel  Colquitt,  will  you  kindly  read  what  the  amounts  of 
Governor  Jones'  telegraph  and  telephone  bills  were  for  the  last  two 
years  of  his  administration? 

A.     This  in  1899? 

Q.     Yes,  up  to  1901? 

A.     Well,  here  is  the  aggregate  here,  $716.59. 

Q.     The  sum  total? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  haven't  compared  it,  but  I  see  they  have  been 
checked  down  as  I  glanced  over  them,  and  they  are  probably  right. 
They  appear  to  be  right. 

Q.  Here  is  the  deficiency,  Colonel,  that  you  have  seen  and 
compared  the  original  vouchers  to.  This  is  the  deficiency  of  the 
Southwestern  Telegraph  and  Telephone  Company,  $44.75,  and  the 
Western  Union,  $106. 

Q.  Does  not  that  show  then  that  Governor  Jones  expended  in 
telegraph  and  telephone  messages  for  the  last  two  years  of  his 
administration  the  total  sum  of  $716.59? 

A.  I  haven't  compared  the  additions,  but  I  think  they  are  cor- 
rect; they  seem  to  check  up. 

Q.  Can  you  verify  it  right  quick  so  that  we  won't  have  to  go 
through  that  account  again,  and  we  can  get  it  in  the  record? 

A.  (After  adding  up  column  of  figures  before  him)  Yes,  sir; 
the  addition  is  correct. 

Q.    Then  the  sum  total  is  what? 

A.     $716.59. 

Q.  There  wasn't  any  Spanish-American  war  during  his  last 
administration  was  there,  his  last  two  years? 


—  244  — 

A.  I  really  don't  remember;  I  think  not,  though.  I  haven't 
thought  of  it.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  This,  then,  is  the  sum  total  for  the  last  two  years  of  his 
administration? 

Ar     Yes,  sir;  the  $716.59. 

Q.  (By  Judge  Merriman)  Colonel  Colquitt,  refer  to  voucher 
No.  5358. 

A.     Here  it  is,  sir. 

Q.     Please  read  that  voucher? 

A.  Little  Rock,  August  14,  1901.  State  of  Arkansas  to  Sanders 
Engraving  Company,  St.  Louis,  making  one  cut  of  James  F.  Rector, 
$2.50;  and  the  certificate  is  attached. 

Q.     That  was  paid  from  the  contingent  fund,  was  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     No.  587? 

A.     That  is  a  Western  Union  Telegraph  bill. 

Q.     Pass  it  by — No.  118? 

A.     That  is  a  long  distance  telephone  bill. 

Q.     Read  it,  please? 

A.     Judge  Davis,  sent  by  Mrs.  Davis,  25  cents. 

Q.     Where  from? 

A.     Sent  to  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis. 

Q.     From  where? 

A.  This  point,  of  course.  It  does  not  state,  but  the  bill  is 
made  out  here.  1st,  George  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  sent  by  blank,  50 
cents;  2d,  Governor  Davis,  Rison,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  35  cents;  2d,  Gov- 
ernor Davis,  Rison,  by  Jacobson,  35  cents;  3d,  John  Hatley,  Rus 
sellville,  by  blank,  40  cents;  4th,  Cooper,  Malvern,  by  blank,  25 
cents;  4th,  McHenry,  Morrilton,  by  blank,  40  cents;  4th,  Mrs.  Bol- 
ton,  Conway,  by  blank,  25  cents;  5th,  Judge  Bourland,  Ozark,  by 
blank,  55  cents;  7th,  Major  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30  cents; 
7th,  Keel,  Newport,  by  blank,  60  cents;  12th,  Barker,  Atkins,  by 
blank.  30  cents;  12th,  Crenshaw,  Texarkana,  by  blank,  75  cents; 
12th,  Montgomery,  Texarkana,  by  blank,  $1.05;  12th,  Belding,  Hot 
Springs,  by  blank,  45  cents;  13th,  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  50 
cents;  13th,  Bloom,  Pine  Bluff,  by  blank,  25  cents;  15th,  Judge 
Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  45  cents;  16th,  Belding,  Hot  Springs, 
by  blank,  35  cents;  16th,  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30  cents; 
16th,  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  30  cents;  16th,  Barton,  Searcy, 
by  blank,  30  cents;  18th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  25  cents; 
21st,  Davis,  Cabot,  by  blank,  25  cents;  21st,  Williams,  Arkadelphia, 
by  blank,  60  cents;  21st,  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  45  cents; 


—  245  - 

21st,  Walker,  Newport,  by  Watkins,  40  cents;  22d,  Sam  Thatch,  Dar- 
danelle-Ola,  25  cents;  23d,  Sheriff,  Camden,  by  blank,  50  cents; 
23d,  Peiler,  Russellville,  by  blank,  40  cents;  24th,  Mrs.  Davis,  Rus- 
sellville,  by  blank,  45  cents;  24th,  Grayson,  Arkadelphia,  by  blank, 
40  cents;  25th,  Governor  Davis,  Hot  Springs,  by  blank,  40  cents; 
27th,  J.  J.  Marbe,  Wynne-Harrisburg,  by  blank,  50  cents;  27th, 
Bessie  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis',  25  cents;  27th,  Parks, 
New  Lewisville,  by  Huddleston,  80  cents;  28th,  Jacobson,  Russell- 
ville, by  blank^  25  cents;  28th,  Thatch,  Dardanelle-Ola,  by  blank, 
25  cents;  29th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  blank,  40  cents;  30th, 
Judge  Moose,  Morrilton,  by  blank,  25  cents;  30th,  Judge  Davis,  Rus- 
sellville, by  blank,  60  cents;  31st,  Barnes,  Fort  Smith,  by  blank, 
85  cents;  total  amount  of  the  bill  is  $24.40. 

Q.     The  next,  Colonel,  is  No.  2016. 

A.  That  is  dated  June  30,  1902.  On  the  2d,  Jim  Bush,  Helena, 
by  Governor  Davis,  75  cents;  2d,  O.  B.  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Gov- 
ernor Davis,  50  cents;  2d,  Nell  Davis,  Arkadelphia,  by  Mrs.  Davis, 
40  cents;  3d,  Bush,  Helena,  by  Governor  Davis,  55  cents;  3d,  Bush, 
Helena,  by  Governor  Davis,  30  cents;  3d,  Alex  Martin,  Searcy,  by 
Miss  Martin,  30  cents;  3d,  W.  P.  Wooten,  Russellville,  by  Governor 
Davis,  40  cents;  3d,  Belding,  Hot  Springs,  by  Davis,  40  cents;  4th, 
Bush,  Helena,  by  Davis,  $1.60;  5th,  O.  B.  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis, 
'  70  cents;  6th,  L.  W.  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  25  cents; 
7th,  Governor  Davis,  Russellvile,  by  Jacobson,  40  cents;  8th,  Gov- 
ernor Davis,  Russellville,  by  Jacobson,  40  cents;  9th,  O.  B.  Gordon, 
Prescott,  by  Davis,  50  cents;  llth,  Dr.  J.  P.  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by 
Davis,  45  cents;  llth,  Dr.  J.  P.  Jelks,  Hot  Springs,  by  Davis,  30 
cents;  13th,  Mrs.  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  $1.00;  14th, 
Wooten,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  40  cents;  19th,  Mrs.  Jacobson,  Hot 
Springs,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  23d,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  50 
cents:  27th,  Lower,  Hot  Springs,  by  Milan,  30  cents;  29th,  Bob  New- 
ton, Camden,  by  Davis,  30  cents;  29th,  Bob  Newton,  Camden,  by  Da- 
vis, 45  cents;  16th,  Jacobson,  Pine  Bluff,  by  Jacobson,  55  cents;  17th, 
Jacobson,  Pine  Bluff,  by  Jacobson,  45  cents;  total  amount  of  bill, 
$15.25. 

Q.     No.  1336. 

A.  It  is  dated  April  31,  1902.  1st,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville, 
by  Jacobson,  45  cents;  2d,  Stevens'  Stables,  Searcy,  by  Governor 
Davis,  35  cents;  3d,  Hotchkiss,  Hot  Springs,  by  Davis,  25  cents;  3d, 
Hatley,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  60  cents;  3d,  Judge  Davis,  Russell- 
ville, by  Davis,  30  cents;  4th,  John  Hatley,  Russellville,  by  Davis, 
40  cents;  5th,  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  25  cents;  5th,  Miss 


—  246  — 

Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  $1.30;  6th,  Wilson,  Arkadel- 
phia,  by  Davis,  60  cents;  7th,  Bourland,  Ozark,  by  Davis,  70  cents; 
8th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  30  cents;  9th,  Heer- 
well,  Morrilton,  by  Davis,  30  cents;  10th,  Hotchkiss,  Hot  Springs,  by 
Davis,  30  cents;  13th,  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  45  cents; 
14th,  Governor  Davis,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  60  cents;  14th 
Stuckey,  Newport,  by  Haynes,  60  cents;  15th,  Keel,  Newport,  by 
Jacobson,  90  cents;  15th,  Gordon,  Prescott,  by  Davis,  60  cents;  15th, 
Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  40  cents;  16th,  Mayor  Belding, 
Hot  Springs,  by  Davis,  45  cents;  16th,  Lankford,  Pine  Bluff,  by 
Davis,  25  cents;  16th,  Bourland,  Ozark,  by  Davis,  55  cents;  17th, 
Bob  Newton,  Camden,  by  Davis,  75  cents;  18th,  Judge  Davis,  Rus- 
sellville, by  blank,  40  cents;  17th,  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacob- 
son,  55  cents;  18th,  Davis,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  18th, 
Miss  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson,  30  cents;  18th,  Mrs.  Tuck- 
er, Camden-El  Dorado,  Davis,  65  cents;  18th,  Jim  Richmond,  Texar- 
kana,  by  Davis,  75  cents;  19th,  Miss  Craig,  Camden-El  Dorado,  by 
Davis,  45  cents;  19th,  Miss  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Jacobson, 
60  cents;  21st,  Arthur  Scroggins,  Nashville,  by  Huddleston,  60 
cents;  25th,  Miss  Jacobson,  Hot  Springs,  by  Miss  Jacobson,  35 
cents;  28th,  Judge  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Mrs.  Davis,  55  cents;  28th, 
Mrs.  Davis,  Russellville,  by  Davis,  30  cents;  30th,  Jeff  Davis,  Rus- 
sellville, by  Mrs.  Davis,  30  cents;  1st,  Miss  Baum,  Memphis,  by  Ja- 
cobson, $1.20;  1st,  Screeton,  Carlisle,  by  blank,  25  cents;  3d,  Miss 
Baum,  Memphis,  by  Jacobson,  50  cents;  21st,  Thompson,  Carlisle, 
by  Jacobson,  25  cents;  23d.  Jim  Thompson,  Jr.,  Carlisle,  by  blank, 
25  cents.  The  total  amount  of  that  bill  is  $29.84,  including  ths 
local  'phone  rent  from  May  1  to  the  31st,  $1.00;  February  1  to  May 
31,  $12. 

Q.  Colonel,  with  reference  to  voucher  No.  2016,  which  you  just 
read,  what  is  the  total  amount  of  the  long  distance  calls? 

A.  It  seems  to  be  $12.05,  and  adding  this  $1  for  the  local 
'phone  makes  it  of  course  one  dollar  more. 

Q.     How  much  is  that,  then? 

A.     $13.05,  and  adding  $4.00  for  local  'phone,  it  makes  it  $17.50. 

Q.     Tbat  is  the  total  of  that  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q,     What  was  paid  on  it  by  the  State? 

A.     $15.25. 

Q.     So  that  is  $2  less  than  the  bill,  isn't  it? 

A.     Well,  hardly,  $1.75  I  think. 

Q.    Voucher  No.  27. 


^347  — 


A.     That  is  a  Western  Union  bill. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Will  you  look  on  this  voucher  that 
Mr.  Jacobson  called  your  attention  to  the  deduction.  How  much  is 
it  for  the  local  'phone? 

A.     $11.60,  and  $1.00  makes  $12.60. 

Q.     How  much  was  paid  on  that  bill,  Colonel,  by  the  State? 

A.     $29.84. 

Q.  How  much  deduction  was  taken  off  that  bill  from  its  orig- 
inal amount? 

A.     $3.47. 

Q.  Well,  then,  since  that  was  taken  off,  that  voucher  would  be 
for  something  like  $3.47  less  than  that  amount? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman,  continuing)  No.  5358,  I  think  that  has 
been  read  once? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  it  is  for  the  cut  of  James  F.  Rector,  $2.50. 

Q.     Well,  I  find  one  here  No.  6726? 

A.  That  was  expenses  to  the  Louisiana  Purchase  Exposition, 
$40.00. 

(Several  more  vouchers  were  called  for,  Nos.  6061  and  6114, 
but  they  could  not  be  found.) 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    fleans   Committee 


ON 


Monday,  March  16, 


1903 


INDEX. 

J.  W.  McLOUD. 

A.  BRIZZOLARA. 

J.  H.  PAGE. 

JOS.  W.  IRWIN. 

FRANK  DESHON. 

H.  W.  DOUGHERTY". 

T.  L.  POWELL. 

J.  H.  PAGE,  Recalled. 

CHAS.  JACOBSON. 

J.  G.  WALLACE. 

R.  B.  HOGINS,  Recalled. 


—  251  — 

Proceedings  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  of  the 
House  of  Representatives  of  the  State  of  Arkansas,  on  the  16th  day 
of  March,  1903. 

Charge  No.  20. 

J.  W.  McLOUD,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as 
follows: 

Q.  (By  General  Murphy)  Mr.  McLoud,  please  state  your  name 
and  what  position  you  occupy? 

A.  J.  W.  McLoud,  and  I  am  general  attorney  for  the  Choctaw, 
Oklahoma  &  Gulf  Railroad. 

Q.     You  know  Governor  Davis? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you   know  Mr.   Eugene  Jett? 

A.  I  think  I  have  met  Mr.  Jett,  but  I  don't  know  that  I  know 
him,  or  that  I  would  know  him  if  I  saw  him  now. 

Q.     Do  you  know  Mr.  Brizzolara? 

A.  I  may  have  seen  him,  but  I  don't  know  whether  I  know  him 
or  not. 

Q.     Do  you  know  Mr.  Rother? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  Governor  Davis'  son? 

A.  I  have  seen  one  of  his  boys,  but  I  don't  know  which  one  it 
was.  I  don't  know  his  name. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  it  was  not  a  fact  that  Governor  Davis 
sometime  during  last  year — I  believe  last  fall — requested  you  to 
furnish  transportation  for  a  party  to  go  out  to  the  Indian  Terri- 
tory, or  to  take  a  hunting  party  out  there  on  a  hunting  trip? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Will  you  please  state  what  you  know  about  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Sometime  last  fall — in  September,  I  think,  may 
have  been  October,  but  I  think  it  was  in  September — Governor 
Davis  had  a  talk  with  me  about  going  on  a  hunting  trip  out  in 
Oklahoma  or  Texas,  and  he  requested  transportation  for  a  number 
of  his  friends  to  take  the  trip,  and  the  parties  that  I  remember 
particularly  were  Mr.  Page  and  Mr.  Brizzolara;  I  do  not  now 
recall  any  of  the  other  names.  He  consulted  with  me — had  a  talk 
with  me  about  where  would  be  a  good  place  for  hunting  and  I 
recommended  that  he  go  out  in  the  Texas  Pan-Handle — on  the  line 
out  there — Texas  plains,  and  they  decided  to  go  out  there.  It  was 
out  in  a  country  whehe  there  was  hardly  any  accommodations,  and 
i  suggested  to  Governor  Davis  to  take  one  of  our  coaches  up  there 


—  252- 

to  sleep  in  and  told  him  I  could  furnish  it.  and  afterwards — a  day 
or  so  afterwards,  perhaps — they  left.  But  some  days  before  the 
party  left  Governor  Davis,  I  think,  left  to  go  up  where  his  family 
was — his  family  was  up  at  Sulphur  Springs  as  I  understood — and  the 
party  started  without  him;  his  wife  was  sick  and  he  left.  I  believe, 
with  the  intention  of  joining  the  rest  of  the  party  at  Howe,  Indian 
Territory;  this  was  along  about  the  middle  of  the  week,  and  the 
car  left  here  the  following  Sunday,  I  think  it  was.  I  furnished  the 
coach  to  the  party  to  take  along  their  baggage,  guns,  dogs,  etc., 
and  so  they  would  have  a  place  to  sleep. 

Q.  Mr.  McLoud,  this  car  then  that  was  used  by  the  Governor 
was  hauled  over  the  Choctaw  road  for  him  out  to  the  end  of  the 
line — 

A.  No,  sir;  it  was  not  taken  out  to  the  end  of  the  line;  it  was 
about  half  way  between  Oklahoma  and  Amarillo,  the  place,  as  I 
recall  now,  was  at  Ramsdell,  a  little  station  where  there  was  no 
houses  or  nothing  but  a  siding;  it  was  away  out  on  the  prairie 
where  there  was  no  accommodations  at  all. 

Q.  You  did  then  furnish  a  car  for  the  use  of  Governor  Davis 
and  his  party? 

A.  We  furnished  this  car,  but  I  did  not  say  that  Governor 
Davis  was  one  of  the  party  on  it;  I  don't  know.  I  understood  that  he 
was  going  to  meet  the  party  at  Howe.  I  suggested  to  him  that  they 
take  a  coach  along  to  sleep  in;  he  and  a  party  of  his  friends  were 
going  out  there  on  a  hunting  trip.  Mr.  Page  and  Mr.  Brizzolara 
wera  to  be  members  of  the  party;  these  other  parties  I  can't  name, 
and  so  they  just  took  an  old  coach;  but  as  I  said,  I  had  some  under- 
standing that  Governor  Davis  intended  to  join  the  other  members  ol 
the  party  in  the  Indian  Territory,  but  I  don't  know  whether  he  did 
or  not. 

Q.     You  did  that,  however,  on  Governor  Davis'  request? 

A.  I  did  it  at  his  request;  yes,  sir.  I  wish  to  state  this,  how- 
ever, that  I  did  not  furnish  any  transportation  to  Governor  Davis 
and  none  was  asked  for  by  him. 

Q.  He  wanted  the  car  for  the  use  of  the  members  of  the 
party? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  asked — his  talk  with  me  was  for  transportation 
for  some  of  his  friends  to  go  on  a  hunting  trip,  and  I  understood 
that  it  was  to  be  used  by  Mr.  Page  and  some  others 


—  253  — 

Q.  But  this  car  was  hauled  over  the  roads  out  there  and  this 
party  that  went  in  the  car  out  there  came  back  in  it — 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  that,  but  I  understood  that  he 
wanted  arrangements  made  for  some  of  his  friends;  but  whether 
the  car  went  out  there  and  returned  with  them  or  not  I  don't  know 
of  my  own  knowledge,  but  I  suppose  that  it  did. 

Q.     It  went  out  there  and  came  back?  » 

A.     I  suppose  it  did,  but  I  don't  know. 

Q.  And  these  parties  that  went  in  it  were  Mr.  Page  and  Mr. 
Brizzolara  and  a  few  others  that  Governor  Davis  had  in  the  party? 

A.     I  suppose  so,  for  it  was  furnished  for  them  to  go  in. 

Q.     Did  they  pay  anything  for  that  car? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  stated  that  Mr.  Page  and  these  other  par- 
ties that  went  from  here  did  not  pay  anything;  they  were  the 
parties  that  the  transportation  was  asked  for  and  it  was  furnished 
them;  tney  were  furnished  that  old  coach  or  car  in  that  way. 

Q.     The  Choctaw,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  Railroad  did? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  whether  Governor 
Davis  was  one  of  that  party? 

A.     No,  sir.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  anything  as  to  whether  he  was  or  was 
not? 

A.  It  was  my  understanding  that  he  joined  the  party  at  Howe, 
and  went  with  them.  Of  course,  though,  that  is  only  hearsay  on  my 
part. 

Q.     At  Howe.  I.  T.? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  went  out  from  there  with  them? 

A.     That  is  my  understanding; 

Q.     Did  he  tell  you  he  did,  himself? 

A.     I  don't  know  that  he  ever  did. 

Q.     Did  he  ever  talk  to  you  about  it  afterwards? 

A.     Not  particularly  about  this. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  tell  you,  Mr.  McLoud,  that  he  had  been  on  that 
hunting  trip? 

A.     I  think  probably  he  did. 

Q.  Well,  it  was  generally  understood  that  he  joined  the  party 
on  that  trip? 

A.     That  is  my  understanding,  that  he  joined  them. 


—  254  — 

Q.     And  went  out  and  came  back  with  them? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  was  that  car  out? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  How  did  you  go  about  to  get  this  car  for  Governor  Davis 
and  his  party;  to  get  the  Choctaw  Railroad  to  furnish  this  car  to 
take  them  out  there  from  Little  Rock  and  bring  them  back? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  requested  the  transportation,  but  I 
spoke  to  Mr.  Phillips,  who  was  then  the  chief  clerk  of  the  Superin- 
tendent's office — that  was  some  four  or  five  days  before  they  went — 
and  told  him  what  I  wanted. 

Q.  It  is  a  fact  is  it  not  that  your  road  is  always  taxed  by  the 
Commission  Board,  composed  of  Governor  Davis  and  the  Auditor  and 
Secretary  of  State? 

A.     I  suppose  so. 

Q.     They  compose  the  taxing  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  known  Governor  Davis  at  the  time 
that  they  made  that  hunting  trip? 

A.  I  have  known  him  ever  since  I  came  to  Little  Rock — about 
three  years. 

Q.     Have  you  known  him  intimately? 

A.  I  can't  say  that  I  know  the  Governor  intimately.  Governor 
Davis  and  I  are  very  good  friends — very  good  personal  friends.  I 
would  see  him  probably  a  dozen  times  a  year. 

Q.  Now  how  many  times  did  you  ever  furnish  a  private  citizen 
with  transportation  over  the  Choctaw  road? 

A.     I  have  done  it  lots  of  times;  I  don't  know  how  many. 

Q.  Outside  of  the  members  of  this  party,  did  you  ever  furnish 
any  private  citizen  transportation  or  a  Choctaw  car  over  the  Choc- 
taw Railroad  from  Little  Rock — 

A.     Yes,   sir,  a  number  of  them. 

Q.     Who  to? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  can't  recall  just  who.  But  Mr.  Joe  Irwin.  I 
don't  just  remember  any  others  now.  But  I  furnished  him  trans- 
portation. 

Q.     Did  you  furnish  him  a  car? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    You  just  furnished  him  transportation,  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  255  — 

Q.     But  not  a  car? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  furnish  Joe  Irwin  transportation  for  a  large 
party  of  friends? 

A.  No;  I  don't  think  there  was  a  large  party,  but  I  think  there 
was  some  two  or  three  with  him. 

Q.     You  just  gave  them  passes;  that  was  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     But  you  gave  them  no  car? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     Now  what  other  instances  did  you  ever  give  anybody  a  car? 

A.  They  just  had  the  car  along  to  sleep  in,  as  I  knew  it  was  an 
open  country  and  no  accommodations  out  there,  and  I  did  it  as  a 
matter  of  courtesy. 

Q.  You  furnished  that  to  this  party  from  Little  Rock  out  to 
the  Pan-Handle  in  Texas? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  what  other  occasions  have  you  ever  furnished  a  car  to 
anybody — I  mean  a  private  party  or  parties — 

A.     I  don't  recall  anybody  except  railroad  men. 

Q.     Well,  they  had  a  kind  of  a  privilege,  didn't  they? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  yourself  could  go  on  a  trip  or  a  hunting  trip  and  take 
whoever  you  wanted  to  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  Governor  Davis  is  the  only  one  you  can  remember  except 
the  time  you  gave  Mr.  Irwin  a  pass? 

A.  There  was  a  party  that  went  out  there  last  winter,  but  I 
would  not  say  positively  that  they  were  or  were  not  railroad  people. 
But  they  went  in  a  car  from  here,  I  know. 

Q.  Where  did  you  see  Governor  Davis  when  you  had  this  talk 
with  him? 

A.  I  don't  recall  whether  in  his  office  or  on  the  street,  but 
I  think  it  was  in  his  office. 

Q.     Did  you  approach  him  or  did  he  approach  you? 

A.  I  think  he  opened  the  matter  to  me  by  asking  about  a  good 
place  to  hunt  prairie  chickens;  that  was  how  the  conversation 
came  up. 

Q.  Now  what  time  did  you  say  that  the  conversation  came  up 

the  conversation  that  you  had  with  Governor  Davis,  when  you  told 
him  that  you  would  furnish  him  a  car? 


-256  — 

A.  As  I  stated,  that  was  along  about  the  middle  of  the  week,  as 
near  as  I  can  recall,  and  the  party  were  to  leave  the  next  Sunday. 

Q.  Now,  then,  what  steps  did  you  take  to  get  a  car,  Mr. 
McLoud? 

A.  I  simply  went  to  the  Superintendent's  office  and  told  him 
what  I  wanted — 

Q.     Who  was  the  Superintendent  at  that  time? 

A.     Mr.  Wentz. 

Q.     He  is  the  Vice  President  of  the  road  now,  is  he  not? 

A.     No,  sir;  he  is  simply  the  General . 

Q.     His  office  is  here,  or  was  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  My  conversation  was  with  his  assistant — or  Mr. 
Phillips,  his  clerk. 

Q.     It  was  procured  through  Mr.  Wentz  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Won't  that  office  show  the  records  in  regard  to  this  car? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  don't  know  what  the  number  of  the  car 
was.  I  can't  tell  you  anything  about  it. 

Q.     What  did  you  tell  Mr.  Wentz? 

A.     About  this  party  wanting  to  go  up  to  the  Territory  to  hunt? 

Q.  Well,  what  did  you  tell  him  in  regard  to  the  party — about 
why  you  wanted  this  car — 

A.  I  told  him  I  had  suggested  to  the  Governor  that  they  have 
a  car  and  asked  him  for  it.  I  suggested  to  the  Governor,  so  I 
told  him,  that  we  could  let  him  have  a  car,  and  told  him  if  he  had  ? 
car  to  let  him  have  it. 

Q.     And  he  said  he  would? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And   he  got  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  Governor  agree  to  take  the  car  or  did  he  object 
to  taking  it? 

A.  1  have  told  you  the  arrangements  I  had  with  the  Governor, 
that  I  would  try  to  get  a  car  for  these  parties,  and  I  made  the 
arrangements  and  advised  him  of  it.  That  was  all  my  own  sugges- 
tion and  without  his  solicitation. 

Q.     Your  road  has  never  received  any  pay  for  that  car? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  McLoud,  I  want  to  ask  you  one 
or  two  questions.  You  say  that  I  told  you  that  Mr.  Page  and  Mr. 
Brizzolara  and  some  other  parties  wanted  to  go  on  a  hunt? 


—  257  — 

A.     Yes.  sir— 

Q.  And  asked  you  a  good  place  out  there  in  the  western 
country  for  hunting  prairie  chickens? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  thought  it  was  a  good  place  out  about  this  place 
Ramsdell  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  I  asked  you:  if  you  could  state  where  there  was  a  good 
place  to  hunt  out  there — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  did  not  ask  you  for  any  transportation  for  myself, 
nor  did  you  receive  any  pay  for  it? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  did   not. 

Q.  This  matter  of  the  car,  now  wasn't  that  just  an  ordinary 
old  day  coach  that  was  down  there  on  the  side-track  and  you  told 
me  that  you  could  furnish  that  so  the  parties  could  have  some 
place  to  sleep  when  they  got  out  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  there  was  no  accommodations  out  there  and  they  would 
have  had  to  sleep  out  on  the  prairie — 

A.     Yes,  sir;  nothing  out  there  in  the  way  of  accommodations. 

Q.  And  didn't  you  ask  me  if  I  was  going  in  the  party  and  didn't 
I  tell  you  that  my  wife  was  sick  and  I  did  not  know  whether  I 
could  leave  or  not,  but  that  I  would  like  to  go,  but  I  did  not  know 
whether  I  could  leave  or  not — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  went  on  home  and  you  arranged  the  matter  for  these 
parties — these  other  parties? 

A.     Yes.  sir/ 

Q.     Now,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  did  you  all  furnish  any  liquors — 

A.     No,  sir.  we  did  not. 

Q.     Did  you  furnish  anything  to  eat? 

A.     We  did  not  furnish  anything. 

Q.  And  so  you  furnished  me  no  transportation  upon  fhis  occa- 
sion at  all? 

A.    TCo,  sir. 

Q.  I  only  asked  you  for  it  for  a  party  of  friends  from  the  State 
and  you  stated  that  you  could  furnish  it,  or  could  arrange  it  for  me? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     And  that  is  all  there  is  to  it? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 
Testimony— 9. 


—  258  — 

Q.  And  I  didn't  pay  you  for  that  car,  and  it  was  just  an  old 
day  coach  that  you  furnished  for  the  party,  just  simply  for  the 
accommodation  of  the  parties  while  out  there — just  let  them  have  it 
— just  an  old  day  coach  to  drag  out  there  to  sleep  in? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  tiiat  is  all  there  is  to  it  about  this  special  car  over 
the  Choctaw  road? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Farrar  L.  McCain,  Esq.)  After  Governor  Davis  asked 
you  for  that  car  then  you  went  and  arranged  with  Superintendent 
Wentz  for  Mr.  Page  and  these  others  and  arranged  that  they  should 
not  have  to  pay  any  fare  for  it? 

A.  I  didn't  make  any  arrangements  for  Governor  Davis  in  ask- 
ing for  the  car. 

Q.  You  just  intimated  that  he  wanted  a  car  for  a  party  of 
friends? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Wentz  could  tell  who  came  and  went  in  the  car 
couldn^t  he? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  You  asked  for  that  car,  however,  on  the  request  of  Gov- 
ernor Davis? 

A.     Asked  for  transportation,  yes,   sir. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  the  other  gentlemen  of  this  party? 

A.     I  think  I  have  stated  several  of  them. 

Q.     Did  you  ever  have  any  conversation  with  them  about  it? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  had  with  them;  I  think  I  had  a  conversation 
with  Mr.  George  Lee  about  it,  or  about  what  was  repeated  about  it. 
[  don't  think  we  talked  much  about  it. 

Q.  The  only  member  of  that  party  then  that  you  talked  to 
about  this  car  was  Governor  Davis  himself? 

A.     That  is  all  to  my  recollection. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  about  the  accommodation — did  you  furnish 
the  car  to  accommodate  Governor  Davis? 

A.  I  say  I  furnished  a  car  at  my  request  to  Governor  Davis; 
or  rather  at  my  suggestion.  It  was  merely  a  courtesy  that  I 
would  do  to  anybody  else  under  the  same  circumstances. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  What  personal  knowledge  have  you 
that  Governor  Davis  was  to  benefit  by  that  accommodation? 

A.  Nothing  for  Governor  Davis,  only  that  the  party  would  hare 
the  use  of  the  car  to  sleep  in  on  this  hunting  trip. 


—  259  — 


Q.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  personal  knowledge  that  Governor 
Davis  was  a  beneficiary  of  that  accommodation? 

A.  I  do  not  know  of  my  own  personal  knowledge  that  Governor 
Davis  was  ever  in  the  car  or  had  anything  to  do  with  it,  only  what 
I  know  from  general  information. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Was  there  an  understanding  with  Gov- 
ernor Davis  what  disposition  he  was  to  make  of  the  use  of  that 
car;  who  he  was  going  to  take  with  him;  or  that  he  could  take 
whoever  he  saw  proper? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  don't  know  of  such  an  understanding,  and  as  to 
who  went  I  can't  say.  I  can't  say  that  the  Governor  mentioned 
the  names  of  the  parties  or  all  of  them  that  were  going  with  him. 
He  said  a  number  of  his  friends  wanted  to  go  out  a  hunting  and 
asked  me  where  was  a  good  place.  That  is  all  I  know  on  that.  I 
want  to  say  this,  however,  I  have  never  once,  nor  has  the  company 
to  my  knowledge,  ever  asked  Governor  Davis,  or  any  other  State 
official  for  any  favor  at  any  time. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  The  specification  here  says  some- 
thing about  I  got  this  accommodation  from  the  Choctaw  &  Memphis 
Railroad.  There  is  no  such  road  as  that,  is  there? 

A.  No,  sir;  no  such  road  as  that.  It  is  the  Choctaw,  Oklahoma 
&  Gulf  Railroad  Company,  a  corporation  organized  under  the  laws 
of  the  United  States. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Is  not  the  Choctaw  &  Memphis  Rail- 
road the  same  as  the  Choctaw,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf? 

A.     No,  sir;  never  was. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  I  make  no  point  on  that  as  to  the 
name  of  the  road.  If  I  got  a  car  at  all  it  come  from  Mr.  McLoud's 
road.  That  is  the  Choctaw,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf. 

Q.  (By  Oolonel  Murphy)  Mr.  McLoud,  you  knew  that  Gover- 
nor Davis  was  one  of  the  three  members  that  had  the  taxing  power 
of  the  road,  didn't  you? 

A.  I  of  course  knew  that  there  was  four  or  five  members  of 
that  board  and  that  he  was  one  of  them. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  you  would  have  given  that  car  to  just 
anybody  that  would  have  come  along  and  asked  you  for  it? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  would  to  anybody  that  just  came  along  and 
asked  for  it;  no,  sir. 

Q.  Then  I  will  ask  you  if  the  position  that  Governor  Davis 
held  didn't  have  some  influence  with  you  in  letting  him  have  it? 


•260  — 

A.  It  may  have  done  so;  but  I  considered  it  merely  as  an 
accommodation^  and  would  have  done  the  same  with  you  or  any  other 
man. 

Q.     You  don't  mean  to  say  that  you  would  have  given  ft  to  me? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  do  mean  to  say  that  I  would  have  extended  the 
same  courtesy  to  you. 

Q.     Or  to  any  other  man  here — a  private  citizen  or  officer? 

A.     I  did  not  say  that. 

Q.  TBy  Governor  Davis)  Colonel  Murphy  asked  you  if  you 
didnrt  know  that  I  was  one  of  the  members  of  the  taxing  board; 
now  I  want  to  ask  you  if  two  of  the  prosecutors  in  tliis  action,  Mr. 
Monroe  and  Mr.  Crockett,  are  also  members  of  that  taxing  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    They  are,  aren't  they? 

A.     Yes,  sir.  I  think  so. 

Q.  And  that  they  and  the  other  two  members  of  the  board 
represent  the  majority  and  they  have  the  balance  of  power — they 
are  the  majority  on  that  taxing  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir.  no  doubt  about  that. 

Q.  You  did  not  furnish  anything  and  never  have  to  me  at  my 
request,  but  it  was  for  these  other  gentlemen? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Now  Mr.  Crockett  or  Colonel  Mon- 
roe never  have  asked  you  for  a  car  over  your  road,  have  they? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.    IBy  Governor  Davis)     Neither  have  I.  have  I? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  understood  that  the  car  was  to  be  furnished  and  was 
furnished  for  the  accommodation  of  these  other  gentlemen? 

A.     That  is  the  case.     So  far  as  I  know  that  is  the  actual  fact. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Well  pray  tell  us  what  the  Governor 
did  ask  for? 

A.  For  transportation  for  some  of  his  friends  to  go  hunting 
and  I  furnished  it  in  the  shape  of  this  car, 

A.  BRIZZOLARA,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  General  Murphy)     What  is  your  name? 

A.     A.  Brizzolara. 

Q.     Where  do  you  live? 

A.     Little  Rock,  Ark. 


—  S81  — 

Q.     Do  you  know  the  Governor  of  this  State? 
A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     Did  you  ever  take  a  trip  with  him  out  West  in  a 
a  hunt? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Where  to? 

A.     To  some  place  in  Texas;  I  can't  tell  you  now  the  nai 
I  don't  know. 

Q.     Over  what  road? 

A.     Over  the  Choctaw. 

Q.     DM  you  have  a  car  of  your  own  to  go 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Your  party  did? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  did  you  obtain  it? 

A.    I  don't  know,  sir. 

Q.    Do  you  know  who  solicited  it? 

A.     I  do  not. 

Q.    How  did  you  learn  that  there  was  such  a  convenience  to 
be  furnished  over  the  road? 

A.    Why,  Mr.  Page  invited  me  to  go  along,  and  I  usually  go 
whenever    I    have  the  opportuntiy. 

Q.     How  long  before  you  started  was  it  that  Mr.  Page  invited 
you? 

A.    I  couldn't  say;  several  days  possibly. 

Q.    Well,  did  Mr.  Page  tell  you  how  you  were  to  go  out,  what 
conveniences  had  been  furnished? 

A.    No,  sir,  I  did  not  know  that. 

Q.     Did  you  ascertain  that  it  was  going  to  be  or  was  to  be 
a  cosQess  trip  so  far  as  transportation  was  concerned? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  didn't  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.     He  didn't  tell  you  whether  you  would  be  charged  railroad 
fare  or  not? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    Did  he  tell  you  who  was  going  in  the  party? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Did  he  tell  you  how  many? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  tell  you  at  the  time  that  you  were  going  out  on 
a  hunt? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


.      _  262  — 

Q.    And  you  say  you  had  your  own  car? 
A.     Yes,  sir,  there  was  a  coach  there. 
Q.    You  went  out  to  the  Pan-Handle  in  Texas? 
A.     Yes,  sir,  Ramsdell,  I  think. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  stay  our  there  with  that  car? 
A.     Five  or  six  days.  , 

Q.    Who  was  with  you? 
A.     When  we  left  here? 

Q.  Who  was  with  you  anywhere  from  the  time  you  left  here 
or  anywhere  in  the  territory  out  there,  going  or  coming  back,  or 
while  there — the  whole  business  of  it? 

A.    I  can't  recall  the  names  of  some  of  them;   but  Mr.  Page 
and  Governor  Davis  was  out  there  and  Mr.  Rother  and  myself. 
Q.     Any  others? 

A.  There  was  three  or  four  gentlemen  from  different  parts  of 
the  State. 

Q.    Who  were  they? 
A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     Did  you  understand  whose  party  it  was  to  be? 
A.    Why,  it  was  Mr.  Page's,  so  far  as  I  know. 
Q.    Did  you  understand  how  he  had  gotten  the  conveniences? 
A.     I  did  not,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  pay  any  transportation  yourself  out  there? 
A.     I  did   not. 

Q.     Neither  there  nor  back? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Do  you  know  who  did  pay  it? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Where  did  Governor  Davis  join  your  party? 
A.    At  Howe,  I  believe. 
Q.    Going  out  or  coming  back? 
A.     Going  out. 

Q.  Was  that  the  second  or  the  first  day  after  you  left  here, 
or  what  day  on  your  trip  out  there? 

A.  We  left  here  in  the  afternoon,  and  it  must  have  been 
the  next  morning,  but  I  don't  remember  about  that,  however — 
whenever  the  train  gets  to  Howe. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  how  long  the  trip  was  from  Howe  on 
out  to  where  you  finally  stopped  the  car? 
«         A.    No,  sir,  I  don't  remember. 


—  263  — 


Q.    Was  it  a  day,  or  more  than  a  day,  after  you  left  Howe? 
A.    A  day  after  that,  I  believe.    I  believe  we  got  there  in  the 
afternoon;  might  have  been  possibly  a  day — something  like  a  day, 
I  think. 

Q.    Did  you  stop  and  live  in  the  car  while  you  were  there? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  you  stayed  out  there  five  or  six  days? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 
Q.     Then  you  returned? 
K.    Tes,  sir. 

Q.    Who  returned  as  members  of  the  party? 
A.    Well,  all  those  that  went  out  there. 

Q.    That  is  just  what  I  want  to  get  at;   name  all  who  went 
out  there  with  you,  if  you  can? 

A.     I  can't  name  all  of  them.     There  was  Mr.  Page  and  Mr. 
Rother   and    myself   and    Governor   Davis'    son,    I   think,   and   Mr. 
Cowling,  and  some  gentlemen — however,  I  did  not  know  their  names. 
Q.     When  they  got   ready  to  come  back  did  they  not  notify 
the  train  to  hitch  that  car  on  to  it? 
A.     Yesi  sir. 

Q.    Who  notified  the  company  that  you  were  ready  to  have 
your  car  hitched  on  to  a  train  and  pulled  out? 
A.    I  can't  tell  you. 

Q.     You  don't  know  who  gave  that  order? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    You  don't  know  whether  a  telegraph  message  was  sent  or 
that  some  local  official  out  at  Ramsdell  was  ordered  to  do  it? 
A.     I  don't  know,  I  can't  tell  you. 

Q.    Who  did  you  pay  in  coming  back  from  your  trip  in  the 
way  of  fare? 

A.     Paid  no  one. 

Q.    Did  you  see  the  conductor  coming  back? 
A.     Yes,  sir.  I  believe  he  was  in  the  car  on  several  occasions. 
Q.    Did  he  collect-  anything  from  the  party  or  not? 
A.     If  he  did  I  didn't  know  it. 

Q.    Do  you  know  whether  the  conductor  at  the  time  he  was  In 
there — did  you  see  him  collecting  anything  from  any  of  them? 
A.     No,  sir;   he  didn't  collect  any  from  me. 
Q.     Wasn't  it  the  understanding,  or  wasn't  it  your  understand- 
ing all  the  way  through,  that  you  were  to  pay  no  transportation — 
no  fare? 


I   264  — 

A.  I  was  an  invited  guest,  and  I  presumed  that  part  of  it  had 
been  attended  to.  No,  I  paid  none  and  wasn't  asked  for  any. 

Q.  What  was  your  understanding  in  the  beginning — that  you 
was  not  to  pay  any? 

A.     There  was  no  understanding  at  all,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  When  you  left  here  did  you  leave  with  the  impression  on 
your  mind  that  you  would  have  to  pay  fare  for  your  trip  or  not? 

A.  I  had  no  impression  about  it  at  all.  If  the  conductor  had 
come  along  and  asked  me  for  my  fare  I  would  have  paid  it.  But 
he  didn't  ask  for  it  and  I  didn't  pay. 

Q.  You  didn't  have  any  means  of  knowing  as  to  whether  you 
was  to  have  a  separate  car  to  go  in? 

A.     Not  then— I  did  before  we  left. 

Q.  You  didn't,  when  you  were  invited,  know  that  your  party 
was  going  to  have  a  separate  car  to  go  in? 

A.     I  didn't  know  that  but  the  day  before. 

Q.  Did  you  know,  or  did  you  understand  before  you  had  left, 
or  just  before,  that  your  party  was  to  have  a  separate  car  to  go  in? 

A.     I  understood  it  the  preceding  day — the  day  before. 

Q.  Did  you  understand  that  you  and  your  party  were  to  pay 
for  that  separate  car  or  not? 

A.    No,  sir,  I  didn't  understand  it  at  all. 

Q.     (By  Farrar  L.  McCain,  Esq.) You  just  didn't  pay  anything? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  were  just  an  invited  guest  of  Mr.  Page's? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Davis  ever  talk  to  you  about  this  since  then  or  before 
that  time?  (Put  tkat  Governor  Davis.) 

A.    Well,  he  did,  yes,  sir;  we  had  a  little  talk. 

Q.    What  did  he  say  about  it? 

A.  He  spoke  of  having  made  arrangements  for  a  hunting  trip. 
I  didn't  "know  when  nor  where  nor  how  we  was  going,  or  anything 
of  the  kind;  but  I  didn't  have  any  objections  to  going  whenever 
the  opportunity  offers  itself. 

Q.  When  Mr.  Page  informed  you  about  the  trip  then  you 
understood  that  it  was  the  same  hunting  trip  that  Governor  Davis 
had  spoken  to  you  about? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  consequence  of  these  conversations  with  Governor 
Davis  and  Mr.  Page  you  went  along  considering  yourself  a  guest 
to 


A.  Yes,  sir,  a  guest  of  Mr.  Page's.  He  was  the  man  that 

invited  me  to  go. 

Q.  WEo  first  spoke  to  you  about  it? 

A.  I  can't  tell  you. 

Q.  Governor  Davis  had  told  you  about  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  then  as  his  guest? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Went  as  a  guest  because  it  didn't  cost  you  anything? 

A.  I  didn't  say  it  didn't  cost  me  anything. 

Q.  I  am  talking  about  the  arrangements  on  the  transportation, 
.Mr.  Brizzolara?  I  don't  mean  as  to  refreshments,  etc.? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Didn't  Governor  Davis  invite  you  to  go  himself? 

A.  No,  sir;    Mr.  Page  invited  me  to  go. 

Q.  Didn't  Governor  Davis  talk  to  you  about  it? 

A.  We  talked  about  a  trip,  one  before  that  and  since. 

Q.  Did  Page  ever  speak  to  you  about  it? 

A.  I  can't  say  that  he  did,  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  ever  talk  to  you  about  this  particular 
trip? 

A.  He  talked  to  me  about  taking  a  trip  hunting  out  in  the 
Territory. 

Q.  "(By  Governor  Davis)  Now  you  spoke  of  this  place  Rams- 
dell;  is  it  not  just  a  little  station — depot  away  out  on  the  bald,  bare 

prairie  without  any  houses  close? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  the  party  would  have  been  compelled  to  sleep  out 
on  the  ground;  there  was  no  accommodations  there,  w1-  ihe-*e? 

A.  No,  sir,  no  houses  there. 

Q.  It  is  not  a  town? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Just  out  in  the  prairie? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  whatever  we  had  to  eat,  and  things  of  that  kind,  we 
carried  or  was  carried  by  the  party? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  we  cooked  out  there  on  the  prairie  (I  didn't  do  much 
«of  the  cooking,  but  the  party  did)  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  an  old  pot? 

A.  Tes,  sir. 


—  266  — 

Q.    And  eat  off  of  boards,  or  a  plank? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  slept  in  the  car? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  We  didn't  have  any  special  car  with  porterhouse  steaks 
and  a  negro  waiter  with  white  apron  furnished  us  did  we? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  just  an  old  day  coach  hauled  out  there  for  us  to 
sleep  in? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  say  you  were  invited  by  Mr.  Page  and  not  by  me? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  considered  yourself  a  guest  of  Mr.  Page  and 
not  my  guest? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     I  joined  you  at'  Howe,  Indian  Territory,  didn't  I? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  "Whatever  eatables  and  things  of  that  kind  we  had.  the 
party  carried  with  them? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  railroad  furnished  nothing? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  And  there  is  no  truth  in  this  specification  that  we  had 
a  negro  cook  with  a  white  apron  and  porterhouse  steaks  and 
champagne? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  If  you  hadn't  had  this  car  you  would 
have  to  have  had  big  tents  and  things,  which  you  would  have 
carried  as  baggage? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  either  done  that  or  slept  out  in  the  air  or  on  the 
ground.  There  was  no  accommodations  whatever. 

J.  H.  PAGE,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Farrar  L.  McCain,  Esq.)  What  is  your  position  and 
your  name,  please? 

A.  My  name  is  J.  H.  Page,  I  am  secretary  of  the  Board  of 
Charitable  Institutions. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Char- 
ities? 

A.     About  two  years,  I  think. 

Q.     Where  do  you  live? 

A.     Little  Rock. 


—  267  — 

Q.  Where  did  you  live  before  you  came  to  Little  Rock? 

I  lived  at  Dardanelle;    I  am  34  years  old  and  have  bewi 
vaccinated. 

Q.  You  came  from  Bradley  County  also,  did  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  go  on  a  hunting  trip  with  the  Governor? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  went  on  one  in  the  Pan-Handle. 

Q.  Was  the  Governor  along? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  he  was  out  there. 

Q.  Who  made  the  arrangements  for  that  trip,  you  or  the 
Governor? 

A.  Well,  in  what  respect? 

Q.  About  getting  the  car  to  go  out  there? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Didn't  you  invite  a  lot  of  guests  to  go  with  you? 

A.  I  invited  some  parties,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  invite  them  if  you  didn't  know 
who  made  the  arrangements  for  the  coach? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  just  happened  to  invite  them. 

Q.  How  and  why? 

A.  Verbally. 

Q.  At  whose  instance? 

A.  Why,  I  invited  Mr.  Brizzolara  at  my  own  instance. 

Q.  Who  invited  you? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  was  invited. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  that  you  were  going  then? 

A.  I  wanted  to  go. 

Q.  Who  with? 

A.  I  asked  the  other  parties  as  guests  to  go  out  there. 

Q.  With  Governor  Davis? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  must  have  been  invited  to  go? 

A.  No,  sir;  must  not  have  been. 

Q.  Then  you  just  took  the  authority? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  assumed  the  authority  to  go  along  with  the  party? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  went? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  not  asked  to  go? 

A,  No,  sir. 


—  268  — 

Q.  By  Governor  Davis? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Didn't  you  go? 

I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  any  transportation? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.  Are  you  in  the  habit  of  riding  over  the  railroads  free  of 

charge  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  that  transportation? 

A.  That  is  my  business. 

Q.  Well,  yes,  and  it  may  be  the  committee's  business.  I  would 

like  to  konw.  Did  you  ride  on  a  pass? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  got  that  pass? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Who  issued  it  to  you? 

A.  Mr.  George  H.  Lee. 

Q.  Did  the  other  members  of  the  party  have  a  pass? 

A.  I  think  some  of  them  did. 

Q.  Did  all  of  them  have  passes? 

A.  I  can't  say  about  that. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  have  a  pass? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  know  that  that  particular  car  was 
going  on  that  trip? 

A.  I  had  been  advised  that  it  was. 

Q.  Who  advised  you? 

A.  Mr.    Williams. 

Q.  Of  the  Choctaw,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  road  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  he  happen  to  advise  you? 

A.  You  will  have  to  ask  him  that. 

Q.  Well,  sir,  we  will  ask  him,  but  we  are  asking  you? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Where  does  Mr.  Williams  live? 

A.  I  don't  know  that. 

Q.  Wh~ere  did  he  live  at  the  time  he  advised  you? 

A.  In  Little  Rock. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  known  him? 

A.  I  didn't  know  him  at  all. 


—  269 


Q.     How  did  he  advise  you? 

A.     Over  the  telephone,  I  thin,,. 

Q.     You  didn't  know  him  at  all? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  had  never  seen  him? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  to  aid  ycur  memory  a  little,  Mr.  Page:  This  was  a 
trip  in  which  it  has  been  admitted  that  Governor  Davis  requested 
transportation  to  go  out  to  the  Indian  Territory.  Now  I  will  ask 
if  you  went  along  at  Governor  Davis'  request  or  invitation? 

A.    Are  you  asking  me? 

Q.     I  am  asking  you  if  you  did  or  not? 

A.    Ko,  sir. 

Q.  You  just  went  as  one  of  the  party  then?  Now,  you  will 
not  say  that  the  first  that  you  knew  about  the  trip  was  when  Mr. 
Williams  telephoned  you  about  it? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     How  did  you  happen  to  know  about  it? 

A.  I  think  I  had  talked  it  over  with  some  of  tKe  other 
members  of  the  party. 

Q.     With  who;  just  tell  us  who? 

A.  Over  with  the  Governor  and  talked  it  over  with  quite  a 
number  here. 

Q.     What  was  your  conversation  with  the  Governor? 

A.     I  can't  tell  you  what  it  was. 

Q.  What  did  you  talk  about  in  that  conversation,  about  that 
hunting  trip  and  the  old  day  coach;  what  was  your  conversation? 

A.     Why,  I  don't  know  that  I  can  recall  what  it  was. 

Q.     A\bout  what — not  the  exact  language? 

A~.  Well,  it  was  to  the  effect  that  we  were  going  out  there 
on  a  hunting  trip. 

Q.     That  we  were  going  out  there? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     How  were  we  going? 

A.     Why,  we  were  going  on  the  railroad. 

Q.  How  were  we  going  on  the  railroad — walk  the  ties  or  in  a 
coach,  or  how?  How  did  you  talk  about  going;  the  way  you  would 
get  out  there? 

A.  We  talked  about  going  out  there  and  making  a  trip.  Going 
nit  there  and  hunt  prairie  chickens. 

Q.     Did  you  talk  about  a  party? 

A.     Talked  about  taking  three  or  four  friends. 


—  270  — 

Q.  You  talked  about  it  before  you  made  your  arrangements 
to  go? 

A.  I  made  my  arrangements.  I  had  no  arrangements  to  make, 
practically. 

Q.     You  invited  Mr.  Brizzolara? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  made  that  just  on  your  own  authority? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  didn't  arrange — 

A.     I  had  authority  to  invite  Mr.  Brizzolara  to  go. 

Q.     From  whom  did  you  have  authority? 

A.     From  Mr.  George  H.  Lee. 

Q.    What  is  his  official  position? 

A.     General  Passenger  Agent  of  the  Choctaw. 

Q.     Mr.  Wentz,  didn't  he  give  you  authority  to  invite  anybody? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Didn't  Governor  Davis? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  Mr.  Lee  made  the  arrangements  to  take  the  party 
out  there? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     Who  did? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     Well,  do  you  know  that  Mr.  Lee  did  not  do  it? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  he  did  not  make  the  arrangements  for 
•'he  party. 

Q.     But  you  don't  know  whether  he  did  or  did  not? 

A.     No.    sir. 

Q.     You  don't  know  whether  Governor  Davis  did  or  not? 

A.  It  would  have  been  possible  for  him  to  have  made  a  good 
many  arrangements  that  I  didn't  know  anything  about. 

Q.     Do  you  know  who  asked  for  the  car? 

A.  No,  sir.  My  understanding  was,  though,  that  Mr.  McLoud 
had  directed  the  car  to  be  sent  up  for  the  party  to  go  out  there. 

Q.     What  party? 

A.    Well,  a  party  of  our  friends. 

Q.  Who  was  in  charge  of  that  party;  just  give  the  names  of 
the  members  of  the  party? 

A.  Is  there  any  one  particular  person  that  you  want  to  ask 
about? 


—  271  — 

Q.  I  want  to  know  all  of  them? 

A.  Each   one? 

Q.  Yes.     There  was   Mr.   Brizzolara? 

A.  Yes,   sir.     And   Governor  Davis. 

Q.  Yes.     And  you  went? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  who  else  went? 

A.  Governor  Davis'  son. 

Q.  Now  who  else  was  there? 

A.  There  was  Mr.  Morehead. 

Q.  Of  Malvern,  Hot  Spring,  Ark.? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  else? 

A.  Mr.  Cowling. 

Q.  Where  was  Mr.  Cowling  from? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  think  he  lived  down  in  the  southern  part 
of  the  State. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  his  first  name  was? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  what  his  initials  were. 

Q.  Were  the  arrangements  made  with  Mr.  Cowling  about  the 
car? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Was  he  interested  in  the  road  in  any  way? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Were  the  arrangements  made  with  Mr.  Williams  about  the 
car? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Governor  Davis? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  With  you? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  was  advised  by  Mr.  Williams  that  the  car 
would  be  there. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  be  advised  by  Mr.  Williams? 

A.  Because  Ee  advised  me. 

Q.  He  advised  you  about  it  when  he  never  had  seen  you,  or 
rather  you  never  had  seen  him? 

A.  Certainly;  that  is  nothing  impossible. 

Q.  How  did  he  happen  to  know  about  advising  you? 

A.  You  will  have  to  ask  Mr.  Williams  about  that. 

Q.  You  stated  that  you  did  not  know  Mr.  Williams  personally. 

A.  I  do  not. 


—  272  — 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  out  there? 

A.  Four  or  five  days. 

Q.  You  didn't  pay  any  railroad  fare? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Either  going  or  coming? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  party  had  a  car  to  themselves? 

A.  Not  necessarily. 

Q.  The  car  was  sent  out  for  you  folks  to  sleep  in? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  out  and  came  back  in  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  actually  did  have  it  to  yourselves? 

A.  I  don't  know.     Not  necessarily. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact  you  have  stated  that  you  did. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  other  parties  rode  in  it  also. 

Q.  Who? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  can't  tell  you. 

Q.  Joseph  Irwin  is  the  only  one  together  with  your  party,  isn't 
he? 

A.  I  don't  remember  whether  he  did  or  not. 

Q.  What  do  you  remember  about  that  trip,  Mr.  Page? 

A.  Very  little.     I  don't  think  I  can  tell  you. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  that  you  went  on  the  trip  at,  all? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  certain  about  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  eat  while  you  were  out  there? 

A.  Sometimes  in  the  coach  and  sometimes  out  on  a  plaijk. 

AiX'Und  where  the  cooking  was  done. 

Q.  Who  did  the  cooking? 

A.  I  think  Mr.  Brizzolara  did  most  of  it. 

Q.  You  are  certain  that  you  went  on  that  trip? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  so  you  don't  know  anything  at  all  as  a  matter  of  fact 
about  this  trip  except  that  Mr.  Williams  telephoned  you  that  there 
would  be  a  car  down  there  or  a  coach  for  this  hunting  praty  and 
you  went  down  there  and  went  aboard  that  car  and  went  out  there 
and  came  back,  and  these  parties  were  on  there;  now  isn't  that 
about  all  you  know  abo'jt  that  trip? 

A.  I  don't  think  that  I  have  given  any  such  testimony  as  that. 


—  273  — 

Q.  What  have  you  testified  to?  You  can  now  just  tell  the 
stenographer  what  your  recollection  is  about  that  trip? 

A.  If  you  will  ask  the  questions  intelligently  instead  of  the 
way  you  have  of  questioning  me — asking  me  things,  so  far  as  I 
know  I  will  tell  you.  I  have  no  disposition  or  want  to  evade  any- 
thing or  get  around  anything. 

Q.  I  see  that  very  readily,  Mr.  Page.  How  did  you  happen  to 
get  into  that  party  after  Mr.  Williams  telephoned  you,  or  how  did 
you  know  they  were  going  on  a  hunting  trip  until  he  telephoned 
to  you?  How  did  you  know  who  was  going  on  it? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  knew  definitely  at  the  time  who  was  going  on 
it. 

Q.    How  did  you  know? 

A.  I  had  seen  some  of  the  parties;  talked  with  some  of  them: 
seen  some  of  them  that  morning,  and  seen  others  from  time  to  time 
and  talked  with  them  about  it. 

Q.    Who  had  you  seen? 

A.     Mr.  Morehead. 

Q.     Where  did  you  see  him? 

A.    n  was  at  the  Statehouse. 

Q.    WEat  did  he  state  about  it? 

A.     He  said  he  was  going. 

Q.    Where  did  you  see  him? 

A.     At  the  Statehouse.  I  said. 

Q.    Where  abouts? 

A.     Right  there  in  front  of  the  Treasurer's  office. 

Q.     "What  did  you  say? 

A.    T  can't  remember  what  I  said. 

Q.    Who  invited  Mr.  Morehead,  do  you  know? 

A.    No,  sir,  I  don't  know. 

Q.    Did  you  invite  him? 

A.     I  did  not. 

Q.    Didn't  he  say  anything  about  who  invited  him? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  don't  think  he  told  me. 

Q.     Did  he  know  that  Governor  Davis  was  going? 

A.    I  can't  say  whether  he  did  or  not. 

Q.     You  knew  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Didn't  you  say  anything  about  it? 

A.     I  don't  know  whether  I  did  or  not. 


—  274  — 

Q.  This  Is  the  same  Jim  Morehead  who  is  the  sheriff  of  Hot 
Spring  County  now? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  don't  know  who  invited  him? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     He  was  invited,  however,  by  someone,  you  don't  know  who? 

A.  He  just  came  by  me  and  said  he  was  going  with  the  hunt- 
ing party. 

Q.     Did  you  tell  him  that  you  were  going? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  When  were  you  going — when  did  you  leave  here;  on  Satur- 
day or  Sunday? 

A.     I  think  on  Sunday. 

Q.    How  did  he  say  he  kiiew  you  all  were  going? 

A".  I  don't  think  he  specified  exactly  how  he  come  to  get  the 
information;  I  don't  recollect  whether  he  told  me  how  he  heard  it. 

Q.     How  long  had  you  known  Jim  Morehead? 

A.    I  don't  know;  about  three  months. 

Q.    Perhaps  three  months? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  known  the  rest  of  the  party  excepting 
Governor  Davis? 

A.  That  is  an  indefinite  question.  I  don't  know  definitely 
which  one  of  them  you  mean. 

Q.    Why  how  long  had  you  known  Brizzolara? 

A.    A  year  or  more. 

Q.    How  long  the  rest  of  the  party — just  on  an  average? 

A".    Never  knew  Mr.  Cowling  at  all  before. 

Q.  Now  then,  Mr.  Page,  didn't  you  go  on  another  trip  with 
Governor  Davis,  going  the  other  way,  with  a  considerable  party? 

A.     I  have  been  on  a  good  many  with  him. 

Q.     How  many  trips  have  you  been  with  him? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

The  chair  here  cautioned  the  respective  parties  to  keep  their 
testimony  within  the  limits  covered  by  charge  No.  20. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  I  wasn't  in  town  the  time  you  started 
was  I? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Where  did  I  join  the  party? 

A.     Al  Howe.  I.  T..  I  think. 


Q.     My  family  during  that  summer  were  in  Sulphur  Springs  and 
didn't  I  go  up  there  first? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  did  you  not  tell  me — write  me  a  letter  telling  me  that 

party  would  pass  Howe,  I.  T.,  on  a  certain  day? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  didn't  you  understand  that  my  wife  was  sick  and  it  was 
ibtful  whether  I  could  go  at  all  or  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  you  said  that  when  you  left  here  to  go  up  there. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)     I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  had  a 
pass? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     On  whose  account  did  you  ride  on  that  pass? 

A.    Why  that  is  rather  a  difficult  question  to  answer,  I  think. 

Q.    Well,  perhaps  I  can  put  it  in  a  different  way;  in  collecting 
the  fares  of  the  passengers  did  the  conductor  examine  that  pass? 

A.     I  don't  remember  whether  he  did  or  not.     They  knew  the 
number  of  the  pass  and  frequently  they  did  not  see  it  at  all. 

Q.     Were  you  acquainted  with  the  conductor  on  that  train? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that  there  was  a  conductor;   I  presume 
there  was,  though. 

Q.     You  don't  remember  whether  he  approached  you  for  the 
transportation  ticket  or  the  pass? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Did  you  pay  anything? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Did  any  other  members  of  that  company  have  any  trans- 
portation ticket  or  pass  or  pay  anything? 

A.     I  don't  know.     I  can't  say. 

Q.     Did  you  see  them  paying  anything? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     Could  you  have  seen  them  if  they  did? 

A.     Not  necessarily  so.     I  don't  presume  that  they  did,  though. 

Q.    Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  there  was  other  passengers 
besides  your  party  riding  in  that  car? 

A.     There  was  some  outside  of  the  party  came  in  there  and 
talked  with  some  of  the  party;  yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  any  of  them  leave  Little  Rock  outside  of  your  com- 
pany? 

A.    No,  sir. 


—  276  — 

Q.  Did  any  return  with  you  to  your  point  of  destination  from 
your  point  of  departure  except  your  party? 

A.  No,  sir,  no  one  else.  It  was  just  a  side-track  out  there. 
There  is  one  thing  that  I  would  like  to  state  about  that  pass ;  I  want 
to  say  that  I  have  a  pass  as  the  editor  of  a  newspaper  and  have  one 
all  the  time  but  at  present  is  at  home.  I  get  them  on  advertising 
account. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  If  Mr.  McLoud  says  that  he  furnished 
this  transportation  who  is  mistaken,  you  or  him;  you  say  that  you 
furnished  transportation  to  two  or  three  of  your  friends  on  that 
trip;  did  you  furnish  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  are  positive  about  that? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not  furnish  the  transportation.  I  didn't  have 
any  transportation  except  niy  own ;  consequently  I  could  not  furnish 
it  to  two  or  three  others. 

JOSEPH  W.  IRWIN  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testi- 
fies as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  McCain)     Your  name  is  Joseph  W.  Irwin? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  are  the  manager  of  the  Capital  Hotel? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  a  hunting  trip  last  fall  that  Governor 
Davis  and  a  party  of  friends  went  on  out  in  the  Texas  country? 

A.  I  was  on  the  train  coming  from  Texola  and  Oklahoma  and 
Governor  Davis  and  his  party  were  on  the  same  train. 

Q.    What  time  did  you  see  them  and  where  did  you  see  them? 

A.     I  saw  them  the  next  morning  at  breakfast  at  Sayre. 

Q.    Was  there  a  party  of  them  together? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Were  they  on  a  coach  of  their  own? 

A.  They  were  on  the  train  when  I  seen  them;  and  it  was  my 
impression  that  they  had  a  car. 

Q.     There  is  no  question  but  what  Governor  Davis  was  there? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.    Who  else  was  on  there — Mr.  Page? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  and  Mr.  Brizzolara  and  Mr.  Rother  and  Mr.  More- 
head,  I  think,  and  I  think  there  was  two  or  three  little  boys  in  the 
part?. 


—  277  — 

Q.    Was  that  on  the  trip  returning  home? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     There  can  be  no  doubt  but  what  Governor  Davis  was  along? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Governor  Davis — And  I  don't  reckon  I  have  ever  disputed  that 
Governor  Davis  was  not  along. 

FRANK  DESHON  on  oath,  being  by  the  chairman  first  duly 
sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Testimony  adduced  relating  to  Charge  No.  13. 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Deshon? 

A.    Little  Rock. 

Q.    What  is  your  business? 

A.  Manager  of  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  &  Telephone  Com- 
pany. 

Q.     The  long  distance  as  well  as  the  local? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     In  this  city? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  arrangement  with  Governor  Davis  by 
which  he  was  to  have  a  reduction  on  the  amounts  of  his  long  dis- 
tances messages,  or  a  rebate  on  them  ? 

A.  Nothing  more  than  that  he  is  a  large  user,  has  a  large 
business  and  he  wrote  me  a  letter  asking  for  a  reduction  the  same 
as  I  give  on  other  large  users,  and  it  was  granted  him. 

Q.    What  was  the  amount  of  that  rebate? 

A\    Fifteen  per  cent. 

Q.    Who  has  the  letter? 

A.  I  suppose  the  officials  have  it.  I  forwarded  it  to  the  head- 
quarters at  Dallas. 

Q.     Tou  don't  know  whether  it  is  there  now  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir,  but  I  suppose  it  is. 

Q.    Who  did  the  collecting  for  the  long  distance  messages? 

A.  The  collector  did  it;  I  don't  know  who  he  was;  whoever  hap- 
pened to  be  on  tliat  route;  we  had  a  number  of  collectors,  and  I 
presume  that  they  all  done  the  collecting  at  different  times. 

Q.  Can  you  give  the  names  of  the  persons  who  did  the  collect- 
ins? 

A.  We  had  a  Mr.  Brickhouse  and  Mr.  Dougherty  and  Mr.  Glea- 
son  and  Mr.  Brown;  they  all  collected  from  there,  and  I  presume 
a  dozen  others 


—  278  — 

Q.  Have  you  got  books  in  the  office  showing  the  collection  of 
these  accounts? 

A.    We  have  a  day  book  that  the  chief  collector  writes  up. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  these  long  distance  telephone  messages 
were  paid? 

A.     I  presume  they  were  paid  like  any  other  account. 

Q.  Are  you  not  able  to  tell  us  anything  about  how  these  bills 
were  paid  that  were  paid  to  Mr.  Dougherty  and  these  other  collec- 
tors that  presented  them? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

Q.  You  don't  know  whether  they  were  paid  by  voucher  on  the 
Auditor  and  then  by  a  warrant  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  then  say  that  you  are  unable  to  tell  anything  about 
it  yourself? 

A.  I  did  not  say  that;  I  said  that  We  send  the  bills  out  and  get 
the  money. 

Q.    Do  you  know  anything  about  how  the  accounts  were  paid? 

A.  No,  sir,  nothing  more  than  the  collector  turns  in  his  report 
of  the  collections. 

Q.     You  donrt  make  out  the  bills? 

A.     The  clerk  makes  them  out;   he  makes  out  all  the  bills. 

Q.     You  are  not  able  to  tell  us  then  anything  about  it? 

A.  Nothing  further  than  I  would  notice  generally  as  to  how 
the  business  is  handled. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  state  to  the  committee  whether  the  private 
telephones  of  Mr.  Jacobson  and  Governor  Davis  at  their  mansions 
were  merged  in  with  these  long  distance  telephone  bills  and  paid 
or  not  in  that  way? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  cannot. 

Q.     Could  your  collector,  Mr  Dougherty,  or  anybody  else? 

A.  I  don't  know.  They  were  given  the  bills  and  went  out  and 
collected  them  and  brought  in  what  he  collected,  and  I  don't  know. 
I  never  asked  any  questions  only  in  a  general  way  or  about  some 
bill. 

Q.  You  did  know  that  there  was  a  reduction  granted  to  him, 
though  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  we  did  with  him  as  with  any  other  large  user. 


—  279  — 

Q.    Was  the  reduction  on  the  long  distance  messages  and  the 
local  phone  as  well? 
A.    "Long  distance. 

Q.  Did  you  send  them  all  out  together?  All  the  bills  that  per- 
tained to  that  office? 

A.  I  presume  the  clerk  gave  the  bills  to  the  collector  that  had 
that  route  for  collecting.  I  presume  so. 

Q.  (By  Farrar  L.  McCain)  What  is  your  custom  down  there 
about  presenting  your  bills  for  the  telephones  and  messages  on  long 
distance  phones? 

A.  Well,  if  the  customer  desires  it  we  make  a  monthly  bill, 
otherwise  we  make  a  daily  bill  and  send  it  at  the  end  of  the  month; 
they  are  then  all  sent  out  together;  this  has  been  in  force  about 
a  year;  prior  to  that  we  tried  to  keep  them  separate. 

Q.     Prior  to  one  year — 

A.     I  can't  say;  it  was  some  time  back. 

Q.     Your  books  will  show  that,  however? 

A.  Well  the  books  show  as  to  who  did  the  collectingg.  We  keep 
no  books  here;  no  regular  books;  we  send  in  our  daily  reports  to  the 
general  office  at  Dallas.  Reports  from  the  branch  offices  are  all 
sent  in  there  daily. 

Q.    Who  is  your  manager? 

"A.     Mr.  Farnsworth. 

Q.    Where  is  he? 

A.    Dallas,  Texas. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  keep  any  of  the  original  memorandums  o;' 
your  credit  business  in  your  office? 

A.  No,  sir,  they  are  made  up  and  sent  to  Texas  where  the 
general  books  are  made  up;  we  send  a  list  there  of  the  charges  and 
credits  from  this  office. 

Q.    What  day  was  it  that  this  discount  went  into  effect? 

A.  I  can't  remember;  it  has  been  in  effect  for  some  time;  along 
about  June.  I  wouldn't  say;  probably  a  year.  It  was  nothing 
more  than  an  ordinary  discount  that  we  give  other  large  users  on 
their  bills. 

Q.  Then  you  gave  this  reduction  to  the  Governor  because  he 
was  a  large  user? 

A.  On  account  of  the  business;  he  made  a  request  stating  that 
he  could  not  buy  coupons  because  he  was  an  official  of  the  State 
and  although  he  knew  that  was  the  custom,  yet  he  was  prohibited 


—  280  — 

from  Buying  them,  and  asked  that  he  be  given  a  reduction  on  the 
iccount  of  his  business. 

Q.     Who  has  that  letter  of  the  Governor,  requesting  a  reduction? 

A.  It  was  sent  on  to  the  headquarters  with  a  statement  of  the 
imount  of  business  and  a  request  that  it  be  granted,  like  we  do  any 
Dther  large  users. 

Q.     Did  you  keep  a  copy  of  that  letter? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  for  you  to  get  a  copy  of  that  letter 
for  the  committee? 

A.     I  don't  know.     It  has  been  a  long  time  back. 

Q.  Now  what  information  did  you  give  the  .collector  who  made 
this  collection  about  giving  a  rebate  on  his  bills,  how  were  those 
bills  collected? 

A.  We  charged  the  bill  in  full — charged  the  messages  in  full 
and  took  a  rebate  voucher  in  payment  for  the  discount. 

Q.  Then  when  you  presented  the  Governor  a  bill  say  for — here 
is  a  copy  of  one,  six  items  on  it;  now  that  was  figured  up  and 
charged  on  your  books  now  at  $28.15;  that  is  the  total  amount  of 
the  bill,  isn't  it? 

A.  I  don't  remember.  The  books  would  show  the  amount  of 
the  bill  and  the  date  of  it. 

Q.  Well  then  when  your  collector  went  around  to  collect  that 
he  just  gave  a  discount  on  it  and  took  a  voucher  for  it — 

A.     Took  a  voucher  for  it;  yes,  sir. 

Q.    Profm  whom? 

A.  From  .Governor  Davis.  After  he  discounted  it  he  had  to 
either  turn  in  the  money  or  a  voucher  for  the  entire  amount  of 
that  bill  less  the  discount,  for  which  he  took  a  receipt. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Deshon,  is  it  not  possible  that 
the  letter  that  you  referred  to  was  written  by  Mr.  Jacobson? 

A.     I  don't  know,  Governor;  it  was  from  the  Governor's  office. 

Q.  Well  now,  Mr.  Deshon,  for  an  illustration,  we  will  take  a 
bill  for  $30— the  face  of  the  bills  amount  to  $30— and  you  have  your 
chief  collector  go  to  the  office  for  the  $30  and  he  would  get  a 
voucher  for  the  $30  less  the  fifteen  per  cent  discount — $4.50 — for 
$25.50,  wouldn't  he? 

A.  I  don't  know,  but  the  ordinary  business  way  of  doing  it 
would  be  for  him  to  get  a  voucher  for  the  $25.50  and  have  the 
receipt  of  Governor  Davis  for  the  $4.50  for  the  discount. 


—  281  — 

Q.     Then  the  State  got  the  benefit  of  that  discount,  didn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    How  could  I  steal  anything  that  way? 

A.    I  don't  see  how  you  could. 

Q.  That  is  the  same  way  the  merchants  do  is  it  not,  only 
the  reason  as  you  say  the  letter  stated,  the  reason  I  did  not  buy 
coupons  in  advance  is  because  I  could  not.  the  law  would  not  allow 
me  to,  and  there  is  no  money  provided  for  me  to  buy  these  things 
in  advance  and  I  just  asked  you  for  a  reduction. 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  in  your  letter  you  stated  that  the 
law  would  not  allow  you  to  buy  coupons  and  you  just  asked  for  the 
reduction  that  we  granted  other  customers. 

Q.  Yes,  sir;  now  you  carry  a  bill  to  a  merchant  and  he  owes 
you  $30,  but  he  has  got  the  coupons  and  you  give  him — the  mer- 
chant would  have  to  buy  coupons  and  he  would  pay  $4.50  rebate  in 
his  coupons,  and  he  got  the  rebate  when  he  purchased  the  coupons, 
and  so  on  a  bill  for  $30  when  it  was  presented  my  office  would 
simply  send  you  a  receipt  for  the  $4.50 — that  would  be  the  business 
like  way  to  do  it — and  send  a  voucher  for  the  $25.50? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  nobody  would  be  the  loser  except  the  telephone 
company? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  give  this  rebate  according  to  the  amount  of  bus- 
iness? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Now  is  that  stealing  anything? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.    Could  it  be  possible  to  steal  anything? 

A.     I  don't  think  so. 

Q.  The  only  way  on  earth  for  me  to  get  anything  out  of  it 
for  me  to  get  a  dollar  by  that  transaction  would  be  by  the  collector 
giving  me  back  the  money  on  the  rebate? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  collector  would  be  supposed  to  get  the  difference, 
v/ouldn't  he,  from  the  amount  of  the  bill  and  the  rebate — less  the 
rebate? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  282  — 

Q.  He  would  have  to  make  return  in  your  office  for  the  amount 
of  the  Bills  less  any  reduction,  would  he  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    That  is  true? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  All  I  know  about  it  is  that  Governor  Davis  asked 
for  tliis  rebate,  and  we  presumed  it  was  given  to  Governor  Davis 
for  the  benefit  of  the  State. 

Q.  CGovernor  Davis  reading)  "The  Governor  early  in  the  year 
1902  made  an  arrangement  with  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  & 
Telephone  Company  whereby  he  was  to  receive  a  rebate  of  fifteen 
per  cent  on  long  distance  telephone  communications"— That  is 
true? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  "Thereafter  had  the  vouchers  for  the  payment  thereof  made 
out  for  the  full  amount  and  sometimes  even  larger,"  is  that  true? 

A.     Not  that  I  know  of.  sir. 

Q.  "And  instead  of  giving  the  State  the  benefit  of  the  reduc- 
tion made  use  of  it  in  paying  for  the  private  telephones  in  use  by 
himself,  his  private  secretary  and  others,  at  their  private  residences 
and  elsewhere,"  now  was  it  possible  for  me  to  do  that?  I  would 
have  to  give  you  a  receipt  for  it  wouldn't  I? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  for  me  to  use  that  receipt  in  paying 
for  my  private  telephone? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     It  would  not  be  possible? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  "His  private  secretary  and  others,  and  their  private  resi- 
dences and  elsewhere;"  now  would  it  be  possible  for  me  with  this 
discount  to  pay  for  my  telephone  at  my  private  residence? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  That  discount  was  given  on  long  distance  business  and  could 
not  be  used;  would  it  be  possible  for  me  to  pay  for  my  private 
'phone  at  my  residence  with  that  kind  of— 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     That  is  your  opinion  of  the  matter? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  "The  usual  course  being  to  have  the  vouchers  made  for  the 
long  distance  messages,  and  without  reference  to  the  private  'phones 
and  messages,"  now  when  you  sum  that  all  up  there  is  absolutely 


—  283  — 

nothing  in  it  is  there,  except  that  you  gave  a  reduction  to  me  just 
like  you  give  to  merchants  and  everybody  else  that  have  a  large 
amount  of  business? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  face  of  the  bill  was  reduced,  the  fifteen  per  cent  reduc- 
tion on  the  full  amount  of  the  bill  would  be  made  and  he  would  get 
a  voucher  for  the  balance? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  would  bring  you  the  money  or  the  voucher  for  that 
balance? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  generally  brought  the  money. 

Q.    He  would  return  you  the  money  with  his  receipt — 

A.    He  would  return — make  returns  for  the  full  amount — 

Q.    T^ess  the  reduction — 

A.     Return  the  receipt  for  the  reduction — 

Q.    And  the  money  for  the  balance? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Then  you  got  the  full  amount  of  the  bill  then,  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  now  would  it  be  possible  for  me  or  anybody  else  to  have 
stolen  anything  in  that  transaction? 

A.  I  don't  see  how  it  could  be  done.  I  merely  know  that  we 
sent  the  bill  out  in  full— 

Q.    When  he  took  it  in  there — 

A.    Yes.  sir. 

Q.  And  this  receipt  and  the  money  or  voucher  was  for  the 
full  amount  of  the  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Now  if  somebody  in  the  Governor's 
office  owed  a  $4.50  bill  for  private  telephone  and  there  was  a  $30  bill 
for  long  distance  telephone  messages  and  the  collector  went  there 
and  accepted  $30  in  payment  of  both  and  carried  the  money  back 
to  you,  you  would  get  the  same  amount  of  money  thai  you  would 
if  the  deduction  was  made,  wouldn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  now,  if  the  collector  will  swear  that  he  did  do  it  that 
way  can  you  say  that  he  did  not  do  so? 

A.  I  don't  know;  he  was  given  the  bills  and  went  out  and 
collected  them  and  made  the  returns. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Do  you  think  Governor  Davis  got  this 
fifteen  per  cent  of  these  bills — this  reduction  in  money? 


-254  — 

A.     No ;   discount. 

Q.     Was  it  your  understanding  that  this  fifteen  per  cent  deduc- 
tion went  to  the  benefit  of  the  State? 
A.     That  was  my  understanding. 

H.  W.  DOUGHERTY,  on  oath  being  by  me  first  duly  sworn, 
deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Where  do  you  reside? 

A.     Hot  Springs,  Ark. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  collector  for  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  & 
Telephone  Company  here  in  Little  Rock? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  arrangement  in  Governor 
Davis'  office  by  which  he  received  a  reduction  of  ten  per  cent  on 
long  distance  messages? 

A.    He  received  fifteen  per  cent. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  do  the  collecting  for  the  telephone  company 
for  its  'pnones? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  collect  from  his  office? 

A.     Governor  Davis? 

Q.     Yes.  sir. 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  tell  the  committee  what  the  course  was 
with  reference  to  the  collecting  for  the  private  'phones  in  use  in 
the  office  and  residences  and  the  long  distance  messages? 

A.  All  the  bills  would  be  presented  to  the  secretary  and  they 
would  be  left  there  and  I  would  come  back  and  get  a  voucher  for 
the  amount  and  credit  that  up  and  take  the  voucher  to  the  Auditor 
and  get  a  warrant. 

Q.  Then  you  went  there  with  the  long  distance  messages — the 
long  distance  bill,  and  you  also  had  a  bill  against  Mr.  Jaoobson  or 
anybody  else  for  a  private  'phone,  how  would  they  settle  it? 

A.     It  was  presented  with  the  others  and  was  paid. 

Q.     All  paid  with  the  voucher? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     On  whom? 

A.     On  the  Auditor. 

Q.     The  Auditor  of  State? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  285  — 

Q.  How  long  were  you  the  collector  for  the  Telephone  Com- 
pany? 

A.     In  Little  Rock  about  eight  months. 

Q.     In  what  year? 

A.  I  am  not  quite  sure.  I  think  I  started  about  November  1901, 
and  from  that  time  up  to  July  this  last  year. 

Q.  How  many  'phone  bills  for  private  residences  or  the  resi- 
dence of  Mr.  Jacobson  were  merged  into  these  long  distance  'phone 
bills  that  were  paid  during  that  time  by  a  voucher  on  the  Auditor? 

A.  I  can't  say  without  the  books.  I  think  they  were  paid  every 
month.  I  can't  be  positive. 

Q.    At  the  end  of  every  month? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  the  Governor's  private  'phone  bill  paid  or  not  in  that 
same  way? 

A.     I  can't  say  exactly,  but  it  was  paid  sometimes  that  way. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  pay  for  'phones  for  any  of  them  used  in  their 
private  residences  or  for  'phones  used  in  their  private  office  during 
the  time  you  were  collector  there  otherwise  than  by  a  voucher  on 
the  Auditor? 

A.  There  was  one  check  for  $8  on  Governor  Davis'  residence; 
the  rest  was  all  paid  by  voucher. 

Q.  Now  when  you  went  there  with  a  bill,  say  for  $30  for  long 
distance  messages  and  had  for  collection  in  addition  to  that  for 
the  company  a  bill  for  private  'phones  for  $4.50,  how  would  it  b© 
paid;  would  you  deduct  the  fifteen  per  cent  from  the  long  distance 
messages — long  distance  bill,  or  would  you  just  lose  sight  of  the 
other  bill  and  put  the  whole  thing  in  there  and  take  an  Auditor's 
warrant  for  the  $30? 

A.  'When  I  went  there  I  would  leave  the  bills  with  the  secre- 
tary and  come  back  in  several  days  to  get  them  from  him;  they 
would  already  be  attached  together  with  a  warrant  attached;  the 
long  distance,  general — local — with  warrant  attached. 

Q.  Then  the  rebate  of  fifteen  per  cent  would  just  be  lost  sight 
of? 

A.  The  warrant  would  pay  me  for  the  full  amount  of  the  long 
distance  and  the  residence  'phones  and  I  would  take  a  receipt  for  the 
discount,  and  would  credit  up  the  full  amount  of  the  bills. 

Q.  You  say  that  that  was  the  course  that  they  had  of  paying 
their  other  telephone  bills,  by  merging  them  along  in  with  their 
long  distance  bills? 


—  286  — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  looked  over  any  of  the  vouchers  to  refresh  your 
memory  recently? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  recall  what  vouchers  they  were? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.     Would  you  know  them  if  you  saw  them? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     What  is  your  name . 

A.     H.  W.  Dougherty. 

Q.     Where  do  you  live? 

A.     Hot  Springs. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  the  prosecutor  or  prosecutors  in  this 
case  since  you  came  to  town? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Gone  over  the  subject  with  them? 

A.    They  asked  me  and  I  told  them  what  I  knew  about  it. 

Q.    Where  did  they  ask  you  about  it? 

A.     In  Colonel  Murphy's  office. 

Q.  Then  you  were  catechised  about  this  matter  before  you 
were  put  on  this  stand? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  let  us  get  right  down  to  the  bed-rock  and  understand 
where  we  are.  There  is  a  reduction  of  fifteen  per  cent  given  on 
all  long  distance  bills  since  a  certain  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  same  per  cent  that  is  given  to  the  merchants 
who  buy  coupons? 

A.  Different  per  cents  are  allowed  merchants.  There  is  a  dif- 
ferent rate  given. 

Q.  Well  then,  if  Mr.  Deshon  says  it  is  the  same  don't  he  know 
more  about  it  than  you  do? 

A.  I  don't  know  what  it  is.  I  don't  know  what  per  cent  is 
given  them.  There  is  a  per  cent  of  ten,  fifteen,  twenty  and  twenty- 
five  per  cent  given  merchants  on  long  distance  telephone  messages. 
There  is  a  rebate  given  to  merchants;  on  a  twenty-dollar  book  it  is 
ten  per  cent,  on  a  fifty-dollar  book  it  is  fifteen  per  cent,  on  a  one 
hundred-dollar  book  twenty  per  cent  and  on  a  one  hundred  and  fifty- 
dollar  book  twenty-five  per  cent. 


—  287- 

Q.     It  is  according  to  the  size  of  the  book  then? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  when  you  bring  a  bill  to  the  office  say  for  $30  there 
would  be  a  fifteen  per  cent  reduction  given  to  the  office,  now  how 
much  would  you  get  for  your  money — what  would  be  the  amount  of 
your  voucher? 

A.     Owing  to  the  different  bills  I  left. 

Q.  Just  assuming  that  you  brought  a  set  of  bills  for  $30  for 
long  distance  messages;  well,  then,  you  would  get  $25.50  in  a 
voucher,  wouldn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  give  the  reduction  of  fifteen  per  cent,  which  would  be 
$4.50,  wouldn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  you  would  take  a  rebate  voucher  for  that  $4.50? 

A.     What  do  you  mean  by  that? 

Q.  A  rebate  voucher — the  same  thing  as  a  receipt;  it  is  a 
voucher  that  your  company  gets  out — they  furnish  the  blank? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  now,  when  you  go  ba'ck  to  the  office  you  have  got  to 
account  for  $30,  the  amount  of  the  bill  you  carried  out? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  do  account  for  it  by  this  voucher  for  $25.50  and  this 
receipt  for  $4.50? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  that  would  be  the  case  where  I  just  took  a  long  dis- 
tance bill. 

Q.     That  would  be  where  you  had  a  long  distance  bill — 

A.  Yes,  sir,  that  would  be  the  way  if  I  just  had  a  long  distance 
bill,  but  I  never  done  that — 

Q.  We  are  just  using  that  to  get  at  the  facts — now  wouldn't 
that  have  been  the  case? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  if  I  had. 

Q.  Well,  then,  how  would  it  be  possible  for  anybody  to  get  any- 
thing out  of  that  transaction? 

A.  I  didn't  say  that  anybody  got  anything  out  of  that  trans- 
action. 

Q.  Would  it  have  been  possible  for  me  to  have  gotten  a  cent 
of  that  $20— 

A.     No,  sir;  not  on  that — 

Q.    That  rebate  was  not  cash,  was  it;  it  was  just  a  receipt? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  288  — 

Q.  Now  Colonel  Murphy  asked  you  ix  the  private  messages — 
that  is  something  that  is  not  strictly  official — were  put  in  these  long 
distance  Mils  and  would  be  paid  just  like  anything  else;  now  do 
you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  whether  there  was  one  private 
telephone  communication  in  those  long  distance  bills  or  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  do  you  know? 

A.  I  only  know  from  the  way  it  was  written  in  the  collection 
books. 

Q.     From  whom? 

A.  Well,  I  would  go  in  there  and  get  an  order  from  your  pri- 
vate  secretary  and  take  it  town  to  the  Auditor  and  get  a  warrant 
and  cash  it. 

Q.    What  do  you  mean  by  an  order? 

A.  I  don't  know  what  you  call  it,  an  order  or  a  voucher,  or 
whatever  it  is  called,  and  take  it  to  the  Auditor.  I  suppose  it  was 
an  order  or  a  voucher. 

Q.     For  what? 

A.     For  the  amount  of  the  bills. 

Q.  I  am  not  talking  about  that — do  you  know  about  any  pri- 
vate item  that  is  on  any  bill  that  you  could  say  was  a  private 
message  and  not  an  official  message? 

A.  I  can't  say  positively,  but  I  don't  think  that  his  private 
residence  would  be  official ;  but  that  I  can't  say  positively. 

Q.    Whose  private  residence? 

A.     Charles  Jacobson's. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  have  collected  for  his  private  residence 
in  that  way? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  do. 

Q.     When  was  that  done? 

A.  I  can't  say  without  the  books;  several  months,  though  I 
think.  I  think  about  eight  times. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  collect  for  the  telephone  at  my  residence  in 
that  way? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  collected  for  it  in  that  way? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.     Will  you  please  show  the  voucher  showing  that? 

A.    Why  the  Auditor  has  the  vouchers. 


—  289  — 

Q.  Now  do  you  say  that  you  could  take  those  vouchers  and 
show  us  that? 

A.  I  could  take  the  books  and  show  what  is  credited  up  on 
the  books  from  the  vouchers. 

Q.     You  say  I  did  not  attach  the  bills  to  the  vouchers? 

A.     No.     The  residence  'phones  wasn't. 

Q.  Now  you  are  stating  that  for  the  truth  and  expect  that  to  be 
believed,  do  you? 

A.     I  am  swearing  to  it. 

Q.     You  swear  to  it? 

A.     I  do. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Dougherty,  I  want  to  ask  you  is  it  not  a  fact  that 
Mr.  Jacobson  paid  you  for  my  private — for  my  residence  telephone 
and  for  his  residence  telephone  in  actual  cash? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     That  is  not  true? 

A.  I  do — I  can't  remember  without  seeing  the  books.  Have 
you  got  the  books  here? 

Q.     What  books? 

A.  The  company's  books;  the  voucher  would  show  the  total 
amount  paid,  but  the  books  would  show;  the  amounts  to  make  up 
the  voucher  would  be  credited  up  on  the  books. 

Q.     You  can  say  so  if    you  had  the  books? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     The  committee  could  get  them. 

Q.  Well,  suppose  you  tell  the  committee  how  it  could  get 
them. 

A.     I  suppose  the  committee  could  get  them. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Dougherty,  you  just  limber  up  and  tell  them  how 
to  prove  it. 

A.  You  ask  me  what  I  can  prove  and  I  told  you  what,  or  per- 
haps I  misunderstood  your  question. 

Q.  I  understood  that  you  were  swearing  to  the  truth  about 
what  you  knew  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  that  you  expected  that  statement  to  be  believed? 

A.  I  understand  it.  It  is  the  truth;  yes,  sir.  What  statement 
do  you  refer  to? 

Q.     You  stated  that  Mr.  Jacobson  paid  for  my  residence  tele 
phone  and  for  his  residence  telephone  by  a  warrant  upon  the  Treas- 
urer of  the  State? 
Testimony— 10. 


—  290  — 

A.  I  do  except  this  $8  that  I  spoke  of,  Governor;  he  gave  me 
your  check  once  for  $8. 

Q.  And  the  rest  was  paid  by  voucher? 

A.  I  suppose  you  call  it  a  voucher. 

Q.  Well,  you  went  to  the  Auditor's  office  and  got  the  money? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  got  a  warrant  from  him. 

Q.  So  that  had  no  reference  to  this  fifteen  per  cent;  that  had 
nothing  to  do  with  the  fifteen  per  cent,  it  was  just  paid  straight 

and  no  fifteen  per  cent  was  taken  into  consideration  in  that  item? 

A.  In  which  item? 

Q.  The  private  residence  'phone — 

A.  I  think  it  did. 

Q.  How  was  that  if  he  paid  you  the  money  out  of  the  Treasury 
on  an  Auditor's  warrant  how  would  the  fifteen  per  cent  rebate 
come  in? 

A.  If  there  had  been  any  fifteen  per  cent  there  wouldn't  have 
been  enough  to  cover  the  warrant  and  the  Auditor  would  not  have 
allowed  it — there  wouldn't  have  been  enough  bills  to  cover  the 
warrant — the  amount  it  was  made  out  for.  That  is  if  the  fifteen 
per  cent  had  been  deducted — 

Q.  When  were  you  discharged  from  the  Long  Distance  Tele- 
phone Company's  services? 

A.  February  11.  I  believe. 

Q.  What  was  it  for? 

A.  The  letter  did  not  state. 

Q.  It  did  not  state? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  you  were  discharged  for  stealing? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  dishonesty? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  lying  and  general  disreputable  conduct? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  the  company  discharged  you  for  that? 

A.  No,  sir;  the  letter  does  not  state — it  don't  say  what  the  facts 
are. 

Q.  Well,  no  matter  what  the  letter  states — what  were  the 
facts? 

A.  The  facts.  I  don't  know  what  it  was  for. 


—  291  — 

Q.    Now  wasn't  it  because  you  were  dishonest  and  lied? 

A.  Nothing — no.  sir — 
Q.  To  this  company? 
A.  I  never  did;  no,  sir. 

Q.     Youi  were  not  discharged  for  that — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  the  letter  state — read  the  letter-  -your  discharge. 
(Witness  produces  letter  when  Governor  Davis  says:  "Just  let  me 
read  the  letter,  if  you  have  no  objections."  Witness  hands  the  letter 
to  him,  and  after  reading  same— but  not  aloud— hands  it  back  to  the 
witness.) 

Q.     The  letter  don't  state? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)     Read  the  letter  out,  Mr.  Dougherty. 

A.  r'To  whom  it  may  concern:  The  bearer,  W.  H..  Dougherty, 
has  been  in  the  employ  of  this  company  during  the  past  twelve  years. 
I  consider  him  a  competent  telephone  man,  and  his  handling  of  the 
moneys  of  the  company  entrusted  to  his  keeping  has  been  entirely 
satisfactory.  (Signed)  J.  F.  Farnsworth,  General  Manager  South- 
western Telegraph  &  Telephone  Company,  Dallas,  Texas.  I  most 
cheerfully  endorse  the  above.  T.  L.  Powell,  Local  Manager." 

Q.    What  is  the  date  of  that  letter? 

A.     March  2.  1903. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  What  one  of  the  company's  books 
would,  by  comparison  with  the  vouchers  in  the  Auditor's  office, 
enable  you  to  say  that  these  long  distance  telephone  and  the  private 
telephone  items  of  the  Governor  were  merged  in  the  same  bill? 

A.  The  collector's  daily,  where  they  were  written  down  in 
there  and  then  copied  onto  the  day  book — either  one  would  show. 

Q.    Where  are  they  kept,  please,  Mr.  Dougherty? 

A.     In  the  manager's  office — Mr.  Deshon's. 

Q.     Now  here  is  voucher  No.  6599? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  I  collected  that. 

Q.     State  the  total  amount  due? 

A.     Total  amount  of  the  voucher  is  $30.70. 

Q.  How  was  it  paid — what  is  the  long  distance  and  what  is  the 
local  'phone  bill  on  it? 

A.     The  long  distance  shows  $22.70:  nothing  else — 

Q.     What  is  the  local  bill  on  the  face  of  it  there  in  pencil? 

A.     Shows  local  $8. 


—  292  — 

Q.     What  does  that  "local  $8"  mean — if  you  know  you  can  state? 

A.     I  can't  say;  those  are  not  my  figures. 

Q.     Whose  are  they;  do  you  know? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     What  is  the  total  amount  of  the  warrant? 

A.     $30.70. 

Q.     And  the  long  distance  is  how  much? 

A.     $22.70. 

Q.  Then  if  that  "local  $8"  means  that  it  is  for  local  'phones, 
that  means  that  $8  had  been  added  to  that  $22.70 — which  is  fhe  long 
distance  telephone  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  whether  that  $8  was  for  the  residence  or  not? 

A.     I  can't  say  from  that. 

Q.  Could  you  testify  positively  that  it  was  not  for  the  local  tel- 
ephones of  the  office? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  cannot. 

T.  L.  POWELL,  on  oath,  being  by  the  chairman  first  duly  sworn, 
deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Do  you  know  this  young  man, 
Dougherty,  who  has  just  testified? 

A.     I  do. 

Q.     Was  he  discharged  from  your  company? 

A.     He  was. 

Q.     What  for? 

A.     Well,  I  prefer  not  to  say  what  he  was  discharged  for 

Q.     I  want  to  know. 

A.  I  rather  not  answer  that  question,  Governor;  but  I  will  say 
it  was  not  for  dishonesty;  but  1  would  rather  not  give  the  reason 
for  his  discharge. 

Q.  Well,  I  just  want  to  ask  you  if  it  was  because  of  his 
attempted  or  improper  relations  with  some  of  the  young  ladies  in 
your  office? 

A.     I  would  rather — 

Q.     If  that  is  not  true? 

A.  I  had  a  report  that  there  was  improper  conduct  going  on 
In  our  ofnce. 

Q.     From  this  young  man? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 


—  293  — 

Q.     From  that  he  was  discharged? 

A.     Yes.  sir,  he  was. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  You  heard  that  letter  that  has  been  read 
here  ? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     And  you  signed  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  And  so  far  as  being  honest  he  was  an  honest  and 
capable  man.  Yes,  I  signed  that  letter  of  recommendation. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  You  discharged  him  because  you 
simply  heard  that  there  was  some  improper  relations  going  on  in 
your  office  with  some  of  the  young  ladies — 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

J.  H.  PAGE,  on  oath  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testi- 
fies as  follows: 

Examination  of  Mr.  Page  in  regard  to  the  charges  made  in 
charge  No.  17. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Murphy)  You  are  the  secretary  of  the  Board  of 
Charities? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  go  on  a  trip  to  New  York  in  last  April? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q.     You  did  not? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  start  on  a  trip  that  was  to  embrace  New  York,  or 
Buffalo,  Tacoma,  Seattle,  San  Francisco,  Mexico  City  and  return? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  did  not  . 

Q.     You  were  not  on  that  trip  at  all? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  never  made  that  trip. 

Q.    Were  you  invited  to  make  it? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  go  on  a  trip  anywhere  in  April  in  company  with 
Governor  Davis,  Judge  Mahoney  and  Charles  Jacobson? 

A.     No,  sir.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Well,  then,  at  any  time  within  the  last  two  years,  if  it  was 
not  in  last  April? 

A.     No,  sir,  not  at  all. 

Q.     You  have  taken  no  trips  of  that  sort  at  all? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  have  not. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Do  you  know  who  went  on  that  trip, 
Mr.  Page? 


—  294  — 

A.     What  particular  trip? 

Q.  The  trip  that  Governor  Davis,  Judge  Mahoney  and  Charles 
Jacobson  were  on.  I  say  have  you  been  on  any  trip  within  the  last 
two  years  with  them? 

A.     No,  sir.  I  have  not. 

Q.     With  the  four  of  them? 

No,  sir. 

Q.    You  have  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

CHARLES  JACOBSON,  on  oath  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  testifies  as  follows : 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Jacobson,  did  you  not  in  last 
April  go  on  a  trip  to  New  York  with  Governor  Davis? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  we  went  some  time  last  spring.  I  don't  remember 
exactly  what  day  it  was. 

g.    Who  was  with  you? 

A.  Judge  Mahoney  and  Wallace  Davis  and  the  Governor  and 
myself. 

Q.     Who  is  Wallace  Davis? 

A.     That  is  the  Governor's  little  boy. 

Q.     You  four  including  his  son? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  all  that  was  there. 

Q.     Well,  from  where  did  you  start  on  that  trip;  what  place? 

A.  I  started  from  St.  Louis  with  them  myself.  I  met  the  party 
at  St.  Louis. 

Q.    You  were  in  St.  Louis  and  met  the  special  car  there  then? 

A.  I  was  in  St.  Louis  and  met  Governor  Davis  and  Judge 
Mahoney  at  the  Lindell  Hotel. 

Q.  You  had  had  information  of  that  contemplated  trip  for  some 
time,  hadn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  for  some  days. 

Q.  Was  it  to  extend  from  St.  Louis,  by  the  way  of  Washington 
to  New  York  City,  Buffalo,  Tacoma,  Seattle,  San  Francisco  and  the 
City  of  Mexico  and  return? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     It  never  was  planned  any  further  than  New  York  City? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     To  where? 

A.    We  planned  to  go  west. 

Q.     To  what  points? 


—  295  — 

A.    To  somewhere  in  Washington. 

Q.  Well,  now  do  you  konw  anything  about  the  arranferyr«-cnts  by 
which  the  transportation  was  furnished  for  going  from  Poplar 
Bluff? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  met  the  party  in  St.  Louis. 

Q.  Well,  you  may  have  done  that  and  you  yet  may  know  some- 
thing about  the  arrangements? 

A.  I  know  nothing  about  how  they  got  to  St.  Louis  except  from 
what  they  told  me  and  from  general  information — that  is  that  they 
took  the  Cannon  Ball  and  went  there. 

Q.     How  did  you  go  out  of  St.  Louis,  in  a  special  car? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  in  a  special  car;  I  bought  the  transportation 
myself  and  paid  for  it — over  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio. 

Q.  Then  if  Sam  West  said  that  he  furnished  it  and  paid  $802 
for  it  fie  tells  what  is  not  true,  does  he? 

A.     Absolutely. 

Q.  From  what  points  to  what  points  did  you  buy  transporta- 
tion? 

A.     From  St.  Louis,  Missouri,  to  New  York  City. 

A.     How  did  you  buy  it — in  the  form  of  tickets,  or  how? 

A.     Yes,  sir.  in  the  form  of  tickets. 

Q.     How  many  tickets  did  you  buy? 

A.  One  for  Judge  Mahoney,  one  for  Governor  Davis  and  one  for 
myself. 

Q.    How  much  did  you  pay  for  them? 

A.     I  don't  remember  exactly  what  it  was  now. 

Q.    Give  us  about  what  it  was. 

A.  I  could  sit  down  and  figure  it  out,  but  I  never  had  thought 
about  it. 

Q.     Through  what  important  points  did  you  go? 

A.  We  stopped  in  Washington  for  three  days.  When  we  got 
there  I  took  the  tickets  that  I  had  and  deposited  them  with  the 
agent  of  the  Pennsylvania  Railroad,  and  when  we  got  ready  to 
leave  Washington  1  went  there  and  got  new  tickets  for  them  at 
Washington,  from  Washington  to  New  York. 

Q.  Did  you  stop  anywhere  else  except  Washington  and  New 
York? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Then  it  is  not  a  fact  that  you  went  in  a  special  car? 


—  296  — 

A.  No,  sir;  we  went  in  the  ordinary  coach.  The  morning  tnai 
we  left  St.  Louis  we  did  not  know  which  way  we  were  going;  that  is 
to  say,  on  what  road  we  were  going — which  way,  and  I  asked  the 
Governor  if  he  had  any  preference  and  he  said  no,  he  would  just 
leave  it  to  me;  for  me  to  go  and  get  the  tickets  over  the  most 
convenient  road. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  a  fact,  or  it  is  not  true  that  one  of  the  party 
got  lost  and  the  Governor  insisted  on  running  the  train  back  for 
him,  after  it  had  passed  him? 

A.  No,  sir;  nothing  like  that  ever  happened,  or  nobody  was  ever 
left  that  1  have  any  recollection  of  it.  But  1  will  say  this  much, 
that  after  we  left  St.  Louis  we  didn't  have  any  sleepers,  there  was- 
nothing  for  us  but  upper  berths,  and  I  remember  the  conductor 
did  us  a  favor  and  wired  to  Cincinnati  to  reserve  three  lower  berths 
for  us,  and  when  we  got  there  I  had  an  argument  with  the  conductor. 
We  all  wanted  berths  in  the  same  car  together,  but  we  finally  had 
to  take  berths  in  different  cars;  we  couldn't  get  them  together. 

Q.  You  haven't  gone  there  then  on  any  trip  where  a  specials 
car  was  furnished? 

A.     General,  I  never  was  in  a  special  car  in  my  life. 

Q.     This  was  no  special  car — answer  my  question? 

A.  I  said  that  I  never  had  been  in  a  special  car  in  my  life;  I 
have  never  stepped  so  much  as  my  foot  in  one. 

Q.     Who  else  were  in  the  sleepers  with  you? 

A.  Just  travelers  generally.  We  had  to  take  separate  berths. 
I  remember  the  next  morning  Governor  Davis  came  and  woke  me 
up  and  told  me  he  wanted  me  to>  look  at  the  mountains ;  I  told  him  to 
go  on  away  and  let  me  alone,  1  wanted  to  sleep,  but  he  kept  on 
jollying  me  until  I  finally  got  up. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Where  did  you  buy  your  tickets  from,, 
St.  Louis? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  to  New  York  City. 

Q.     Did  you  travel  first-class — 

A.     Yes,  sir,  traveled  first-class  all  the  way. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go — what  were  the  most  important  points 
that  you  passed  through  besides  Washington  in  going  to  New  York? 

A.  In I  took  little  Wallace  down  to  the  street  and  got 

him  a  glass  of  soda  water — 

Q.     That  was  not  charged  to  the  contingent  fund,  was  it? 

A.     Might  have  been — 


Q.     Vhere  else  did  you  stop? 

A.  Went  right  straight  through  to  Washington  and  stayed 
there  three  days;  we  were  traveling  on  the  train  most  of  the  time. 

Q.     You  say  you  were  traveling  on  the  train  most  of  the  time — 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     What  road  did  you  take  when  you  went  from  Washington — 

A.     Went  over  the  Vandalia  Railroad. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  stay  in  New  York? 

A.     Two  or  three  days. 

Q.     Well,  you  went  there  in  a  first-class  train? 

A.     Most  assuredly. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go  next;  back  to  St.  Louis?     Right  straight? 

A.  No,  we  stopped  one  day  at  the  Niagara  Falls.  We  stopped 
in  Buffalo,  and  I  wanted  to  see  the  Falls;  we  went  from  New  York 
to  Buffalo  on  the  New  York  Central  and  I  expressed  a  desire  to 
see  the  Falls  while  I  was  there,  and  the  Governor  said  he  would 
arrange  it — I  understood  that  our  tickets  were  not  stop-over  tickets, 
and  I  saw  the  conductor  about  it  and  we  had  a  long  talk;  so  when 
we  got  to  Buffalo,  I  think  it  was,  I  went  to  the  General  Offices  of  the 
the  New  York  Central  and  we  got  stop-over  privileges. 

Q.     Did  you  go  to  Buffalo? 

A.  We  were  not  in  Buffalo  very  long;  we  took  a  street  car  and 
went — no,  we  were  not  in  Buffalo  but  fifteen  or  twenty  minutes. 
We  took  a  street  car  and  went  out  to  Niagara  Falls — 

Q.     How  long  did  you  stay  in  Buffalo? 

A.  I  stayed  only  fifteen  or  twenty  minutes.  When  we  got  back 
that  afternoon  or  night  we  went  over  the  Lake  Shore  and  Michigan 
Central  from  there;  went  over  that  road  to  Cleveland,  over  the  Big 
Four  track.  And  when  we  got  to  St.  Louis  we  then  came  on  home. 
While  we  were  in  the  New  York  Central  &  Hudson  River  station  in 
New  York  I  bought  three  and  one-half  tickets;  the  Governor  gave 
me  the  actual  cash  to  get  them  with— handed  me  a  hundred  dollar 
bill— 

Q.     t)id  you  get  a  receipt  for  the  tickets? 

A.  Tickets,  straight  tickets.  I  remember  one  thing;  while  I 
was  standing  there  I  laid  the  hundred  dollar  bill  down  on  the 
counter  and  a  Chinaman  was  standing  right  on  my  left,  and  he 
asked  me  where  I  was  going  and  I  told  him  to  San  Francisco,  and 
he  asked  me  to  let  him  go  along;  I  remember  that.  I  think  the 
hundred  dollar  bill  attracted  his  attention. 


Q.  Do  you  remember  going  with  the  Governor  on  any  other  trip 
to  Buffalo? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  ever  go  himself  on  any  other  trip? 

A.  Yes  sir — from  St.  Louis  to  Buffalo  in  a  private  car  as  I 
understood  it. 

Q.     When? 

A.  Why  I  don't  remember  the  date,  Mr.  McCain;  I  know  that 
it  was  tne  day  when  the  Governors  met  there  for  the  benefit  of 
the  Louisiana  Purchase  Exposition,  whatever  day  that  was.  He 
went  on  the  invitation  of  Governor  Francis. 

Q.     When? 

A.  I  don't  remember.  I  tell  you  it  was  the  day  of  the  Louisi- 
ana Purchase  Exposition,  their  day,  whatever  day  that  was  at  the 
Buffalo  Centennial. 

Q.     Governor  Davis  didn't  take  you  along  that  time? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Did  anybody  go  with  him  from  Arkansas? 

A.     No,  I  would  like  to  have  gone. 

Q.     Was  that  last  summer  or  last  spring? 

A.  I  don't  remember,  Farrar.  You  can  find  out.  It  was  the 
Louisiana  Purchase  Exposition  day  at  the  Pan  American  Centen- 
nial. I  know  that  Governor  Francis  wired  Governor  Davis  asking 
him  to  go  to  Buffalo  with  him  and  represent  Arkansas  there,  and  he 
wired  back  and  said  yes. 

Q.  These  are  the  only  two  trips  that  you  know  of  the  Governor 
taking  east? 

A.  No,  he  went  to  New  York  before  that  once.  I  went  to 
New  York  with  him  once  before  that. 

Q.    When? 

A.  Oh,  he  went  with  Governor  Clark;  went  there  to  take  some 
depositions. 

Q.     While  he  was  Governor  ? 

A.     No,  sir;  while  Attorney  General. 

Q.     Well,  those  are  the  only  three? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  know  about  what  your  expenses  were  on  this  trip? 

A.  No,  but  I  think  it  cost  the  Governor  nearly  $500  and  cost 
Judge  Mahoney  something  over  that  amount  and  it  cost  me  about 
$200.  I  know  this  from  the  reason  that  when  we  were  in  Washing- 
ton and  were  all  in  our  rooms — I  was  in  bed — Governor  Davis  and 


—  299  — 

Judge  Mahoney  got  to  discussing  what  their  expenses  had  been 
and  they  made  me  get  out  of  bed  and  sit  down  at  a  table  and  take 
a  lead  pencil  and  paper  and  figure  up  the  entire  expense  of  the 
trip— transportation  and  everything  else— what  we  had  spent,  the 
total  for  all  bills,  and  said  they  would  pro-rate  it  among  the  three. 
I  know  that  the  transportation  was  paid  for  for  I  bought  it  myself. 

Q.     It  cost  you  then  about  $1,300  for  that  trip? 

A.     Mighty  near  that;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  heard  about  Mr.  Bourland  being  invited  to  go  on 
a  trip  with  the  Governor,  did  you? 

A.  I  heard  that  Mr.  Bourland  was  asked  to  go  and  he  said 
he  did  not  have  any  money  to  spare,  and  that  he  couldn't  leave 
his  practice — something  of  that  kind. 

Q.     Then  you  heard  of  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  I  heard  of  it. 

Q.    What  broke  up  the  trip  going  west? 

A.     The  Baptist  Church  here  at  Little  Rock  broke  it  up. 

Q.     How  was  that? 

A.  Well,  Mr.  Ginnochio  wired  the  Governor  that  the  Baptist 
Church  had  preferred  charges  against  him  and  the  Governor  con- 
cluded he  had  better  come  home  and  see  about  it;  he  didn't 
know  what  they  might  do  here. 

Q.  Then  if  it  had  not  been  for  that  you  would  have  started 
on  your  western  trip? 

A.  Well,  we  were  talking  about  that  matter  when  this  thing 
come. 

Q.     So  you  had  to  declare  your  western  trip  off? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  And  this  trip  had  already  cost  you  three  about  $1,200  or 
$1.300? 

A.  Somewhere  in  that  neighborhood;  I  don't  recollect  just  the 
cents. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  This  statement  about  having  a  pri- 
vate car  to  ride  upon  and  champagne  and  fine  wines  and  liquors  is 
absolutely  without  foundation— nothing  of  that  kind  occurred? 

A.  No,  sir,  there  wasn't  anything  on  our  car  except  a  couple 
of  bottles  of  Wizard  Oil  and  a  bottle  of  soothing  syrup;  that  was 
all  the  bottles  it  had  on  it  that  I  know  of.  I  remember  they  gave 
me  or  made  me  take  a  dose  of  the  soothing  syrup — 

Q.  No,  Charlie,  that  wasn't  soothing  syrup;  it  was  Syrup  of 
Figs. 


—  300  — 

A.     Yes,  that  is  what  it  was. 

Q.  This  statement  that  has  been  flaunted  all  over  the  country 
that  I  went  in  a  private  car  loaded  down  with  champagne  and 
fine  liquors,  and  that  some  of  the  crowd  got  so  drunk  they  fell  off 
the  train,  and  that  it .  was  a  disgrace — brought  disgrace  on  the 
State— 

A.     There  was  nothing  of  the  kind — 

Q.  There  was  no  private  car  and  nothing  in  the  car  except 
what  any  other  person  would  carry — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     And  there  is  nothing  to  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     And  we  were  just  ordinary  passengers? 

A      Yes.  sir. 

Q.     And  rode  with  the  other  passengers? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     And  paid  our  fare  just  like  other  white  folks,  didn't  we? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     (By  Parrar  L.  McCain,  Esq.)     What  is  your  salary? 

A.     $135  a  month. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Do  you  know  what  was  in  the  special 
car  that  he  went  to  Buffalo  on  or  not? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  it,  Colonel.  I  suppose  they  had 
everything,  though,  that  they  wanted;  they  were  foolish  if  they 
didn't. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  That  was  a  trip  of  Governor  Francis 
and  some  other  people  from  St.  Louis,  and  he  simply  invited  me  to 
come  and  go  along  to  Buffalo  with  him  as  a  representative  of  the 
State  of  Arkansas? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  To  help  for  the  Louisiana  Purchase  Exposition.  I 
know  you  wired  him  at  first  that  you  could  not  go,  but  you  after- 
wards went. 

Q.  They  a-ked  me  if  Sam  West— I  will  ask  you  if  Sam  West 
said  that  he  gave  me  $817  if  he  told  that  which  was  not  true;  now 
have  you  any  understanding  that  he  ever  did  such  a  thing? 

A.     No,  sir. 

JUDGE  J.  G.  WALLACE,  on  oath.,  being  first  duly  sworn,  de- 
poses and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Judge  Wallace,  where  do  you  reside? 
A.     I  reside  at  Russellville  in  this  State. 


—  301  - 

Do  you  know  Governor  Davis? 
Yes,  sir;    very  well. 
Do  you  know  R.  B.  Hogins? 
I  do;  yes  sir. 

Were  you  ever  at  a  meeting  between  Governor  Davis  and 
R.  B.  Hogins  in  the  Governor's  office  where  you  were  trying  to 
adjust  a  difference  between  them  in  consequence  of  his  insistence 
upon  Mr.  Hogins  appointing  Mr.  Sam  Thatch,  his  brother-in-law,  to 
a  position  on  the  penitentiary  service? 

A.     I  was;  yes  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  state  to  the  committee  what,  if  anything,  Governor 
Davis  said  to  Mr.  Hogins  in  his  office  to  induce  him  to  appoint  his 
brother-in-law  to  such  a  position  in  the  penitentiary  service? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  whether  I  can  reproduce  the  language 
— I  can't  reproduce  the  language  in  its  parts,  but  I  can  produce  the 
substance  of  it.  I  would  not  be  certain  about  that,  even.  It  hap- 
pened, I  think  it  may  have  been  before,  or  probably  directly  after — 
I  remember  it  was  in  the  afternoon  some  time  last  spring;  I  can't 
fix  exactly  what  month  now,  but  it  was  in  March,  perhaps.  Well, 
in  the  first  place  I  will  state  that  Goveronr  Davis  had  asked  Mr. 
Hogins  to  appoint  Mr.  Thatch,  who  was  his  brother-in-law,  as  elec- 
trician at  the  penitentiary.  Mr.  Hogins  made  the  point  that  Mr. 
Thatch  was  not  competent,  and  I  was  spoken  to  by  e£,ch  one  of 
them,  perhaps  on  two  or  three  different  occasions,  and  on  one 
occasion,  myself,  Judge  Davis,  who  is  the  father  of  Governor  Davis, 
and  also  a  friend  of  Mr.  Hogins,  as  well  as  myself,  we  undertook  to 
— well  that  is.  I  don't  know  that  we  undertook  it  particularly,  but 
undertook  it  at  their  suggestion,  perhaps,  to  see  if  we  couldn't 
bring  about  a  settlement  of  the  matter.  At  that  time  Mr.  Hogins 
and  Governor  Davis  were  on  good  terms,  as  I  understood  it.  So 
Mr.  Hogins  came  up  in  the  office — 1  think  I  went  to  see  Mr.  Hogins, 
maybe,  and  had  a  talk  with  him  there  at  the  time  or  a  short  time 
before  about  the  matter — and  Judge  Davis  was  in  the  office.  I  was 
also  in  the  office  and  Mr.  Hogins  came  in  pretty  soon  after,  and 
the  subject  was  broached,  but  just  by  whom  I  don't  remember  now; 
perhaps  we  were  talking  about  it  when  Mr.  Hogins  came  in.  Well, 
Judge  Davis,  I  think  it  was,  remarked  that  he  did  not  believe  that 
Sam — that  is  Mr.  Thatch,  the  brother-in-law  of  Governor  Davis — 
was  competent  to  fill  the  place.  Well,  then  Governor  Davis  said 
that  he  would  withdraw  him  for  the  postiton — substantially  said 
that,  and  askecl  Mr.  Hogins  then  to  give  him  Joe  Moore's  place. 


—  302  — 

and  Mr.  Hogins  remarked,  "I  am  going  to  give  that  to  Kufe,"  or 
"I  have  reserved  that  for  Rufe,"  or  something  to  that  effect — the 
son  of  Mr.  Hogins;  and  I  think  Mr.  Davis  remarked  that  the  board 
could  create  another  office  for  Rufe  and  that  Sam  could  attend  to  the 
duties  of  the  office  of  Mr.  Moore,  and  then  I  think  Mr.  Hogins  agreed 
to  give  Sam  Mr.  Moore's  place,  provided  the  board  would  consent  to 
it,  so  they  parted  with  that  understanding.  After  that,  in  the  ab- 
sence of  Mr.  Davis,  I  talked  with  Mr.  Hogins  and  I  asked  him  about 
it — I  don't  just  know  how  the  matter  was  brought  about  or  spoke  of 
between  us,  and  he  told  me  that  he  had  been  to  see  vou  (Colonel 
Murphy)  and  Mr.  Crockett,  and  that  while  you  had  said  to  him 
that  you  were  willing  to  approve  any  appointment  that  he  would 
make,  yet  you  did  not  believe  that  Moore  ought  to  be  removed,  and 
so  he  had  declined  to  remove  Mr.  Moore  under  the  circumstances. 
That  is  about  all  I  know  about  it.  I  don't  think  I  ever  had  any 
further  conversation,  or  was  present  when  any  was  had  about  it. 

Q.  Did  or  did  not  Governor  Davis  state  to  Mr.  Hogins  what 
position  he  expected  and  the  amount  of  the  monthly  salary  he 
would  have  the  board  create  for  his  son  if  Hogins  would  appoint 
Sam  Thatch  to  the  place  that  he  wanted  him  to  have? 

A.  Well,  he  may  have  done  so,  but  I  don't  think — I  don't 
remember  it.  I  don't  say  that  he  did  not  state  it,  but  I  canl  remem- 
ber about  that. 

Q.  But  do  you  say  you  remember  that  he  said  the  board  would, 
or  he  would  have  the  board  create  a  place  for  Hogins'  son  if  he 
did  it? 

A.  I  don't  know;  he  said  he  would  have  the  board  do  it  or  the 
board  would  do  it,  or  the  board  could  do  it,  or  it  would  do  it. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Judge  Wallace,  did  you  not  hear 
Mr.  Hogins  say  at  the  talk  that  we  had  at  my  office,  that  he  meant 
to  discharge  Joe  Moore  anyhow? 

A.    Well,  I  can't  recollect  that  he  made  that  statement. 

Q.     Or  that  he  had  made  up  his  mind  to  discharge  Joe  Moore? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  wanted  to  reserve,  or  was  reserving, 
that  place;  I  remember  that  distinctly. 

Q.  And  didn't  I  tell  him  this,  that  Mr.  Crockett  had  a  brother- 
in-law  out  there  that  was  an  assistant  bookkeeper,  a  place  for  which 
there  is  no  provision  made  for  at  all  in  the  statute,  with  the  knowl- 
edge and  consent  of  the  board,  and  that  another  place  like  it  might 
be  raised  for  Rufe? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  think  that  was  said. 


—  303  — 

Q.  I  told  him  that  Mr.  Crockett  had  a  brother-in-law,  a  Mr. 
Gibson,  an  assistant  bookkeeper  in  a  place  out  there  that  was  not 
provided  for  in  the  statute,  and  that  the  board  might  make  another 
place  of  that  kind? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  something  was  said  about  something  of  that  kind, 
but  I  don't  remember  whether  it  was  about  Mr.  Gibson  or  somebody 
else. 

Q.  You  know  this  or  understand  it  so,  that  Mr.  Gibson  is 
Mr,  Crockett's  brother-in-law? 

A.     That  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  And  that  there  is  no  such  place  as  an  assistant  bookkeeper 
provided  for  in  the  statute? 

A.     I  have  never  had  occasion  to  examine  it  closely. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  Mr.  Hogins  did  not  have  his  son-in-law 
down  here  in  a  job  who  has  the  reputation  of  being  a  sot — drunkard 
—I  am  speaking  of  Mr.  White? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  Andrew  White.  I  don't  know  that  I  ever  saw  him. 
I  understood,  however,  that  he  did  have  a  son-in-law  here  as  cotton 
weigher. 

Q.  Didn't  Mr.  ask  you  whether  or  not  if  Andrew 

White  was  a  drunkard;  he  sent  him  off  down  here  about  England 
as  a  cotton  weigher? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  he  spoke  something  about  it. 

Q.  And  didn't  they  have  to  discharge  White  on  account  of 
drunkenness  ? 

A.  Well,  I  tell  you,  I  can't  say  whether  White  was  a  drunkard 
or  not.  I  think  he  sometimes  drank  whiskey,  but  whether  he  was. 
an  inebriate  or  not  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Well,  they  never  have  said  anything  as  long  as  it  was 
Crockett's  brother-in-law,  or  Hogins'  son-in-law,  that  was  was  being, 
appointed  to  some  place,  but  that  was  when  I  wanted  my  brother- 
in-law  appointed — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  the  Gov- 
ernor and  Mr.  Hogins  was  on  friendly  terms  at  that  time? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.     Did  they  become  unfriendly  soon  after  that? 

A.  Well,  that  is  my  understanding.  I  can't  just  state  anything 
but  afterwards  they  became  unfriendly. 

Q.     Well,  do  you  know  of  anything  that  could  have  caused  it? 

A.  Well,  yes;  I  think  I  do.  I  think  it  was  about  this  appoint- 
ment in  some  way.  I  can't  state  that  though  as  a  fact. 


—  304  — 

Q.     rBy  Governor  Davis)     I  will  ask  you  if  I  spoke  to  him  about 
this  Dickinson  contract  — 
A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  And  didn't  I  tell  Mr.  Hoggins  then  that  I  would  not  allow 
my  brother-in-law  to  hold  a  place  under  it,  and  that  he  had  not 
kept  a  single  promise  'that  he  had  made  to  me  when  I  appointed 
him  as  superintendent  out  there' at  the  penitentiary? 

A.    You  stated  something,  but  I    couldn't  say  just  what — 
Q.     Don't  you  remember  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  think  you  stated  that  in  substance;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  didn't  I  state  to  Mr.  Hogins  right  there  in  that  con- 
versation, and  Mr.  Hogins  said  that  I  had  gotten  him  the  place  as 
superintendent  of  the  penitentiary? 

A.  Well,  yes,  I  am  inclined  to  think  he  did;  I  would  not  be  pos- 
itive. 

Q.  And  then  I  told  him — told  Mr.  Hogins  right  in  your  pres- 
ence that  I  had  agreed  to  do  so  if  he  would  consent  to  certain 
conditions? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  That  he  had  promised  to  do  when  he  had  gone  in  there 
as  superintendent? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  And  didn't  I  tell  him  that  he  had  agreed  to  not  drink  any 
more  liquor? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  That  he  had  agreed  to  break  up  the  boarding  house  out 
there  at  the  penitentiary? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  didn't  I  tell  him  if  he  found  anybody  acting  crooked 
that  I  wanted  him  to  help  me  to  catch  him? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  he  had  agreed  to  help  me  overthrow  the  Dickinson 
contract? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  didn't  I  tell  him  that  he  had  not  done  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  didn't  I  tell  him  at  the  time  that  he  had  not  kept  a 
single  one  of  those  promises? 

A.     I  think  he  at  that  time  made  some  excuses  for  not  keeping — 

Q.     Didn't  he  acknowledge  that  he  had  not  kept  a  one  of  them? 
•   A.     Yes,    sir;    he   said   the   courts   had   upheld   the   Dickinson 
contract  and  he — 


—  305  — 

Q.  And  didn't  he  now  substantially  tell  ne  that  he  had  not 
kept  a  one  of  those  promises? 

A.  Well,  I  can't  say  whether  he  did  or  not,  except  the  Dick- 
inson contract;  he  told  you  that  he  had  not  kept  that  for  the  reason 
he  was  afraid  he  would  be  enjoined. 

Q.    Well,  didn't  he  creep  out  of  them — try  to  get  out  of  them? 

A.  I  understood— and  in  fact  there  was  a  coolness  between  you 
previous  to  that  time. 

Q.  Didn't  I  tell  him  then  and  there  in  the  persence  of  you  and 
my  father — you  were  both  there  and  heard  that  statement,  did 
I  not  teH  him  that  I  would  not  allow  my  brother-in-law  to  hold  a 
place  under  him  as  long  as  that  Dickinson  contract  was  there  when 
he  said  that  he  had  made  up  his  mind  to  discharge  Joe  Moore, 
but  that  he  wanted  to  save  that  place  for  his  son  Rufe? 

A.  Well,  I  understood,  while  I  can't  reproduce  anything,  the 
substance  of  what  occurred,  I  know  when  Mr.  Hogins  said  he  was 
going  to  give — you  wanted  him  to  give  the  place  to  Sam  and  when 
he  raised  the  point  that  Sam  was  not  competent  then  you  wanted 
him  to  give  Sain  Joe  Moore's  place,  and  he  said  he  wa.«  giong  to 
give  that  to  Rufe. 

Q.  IBy  Colonel  Murphy)  Was  that  conversation  you  speak 
of  there  in  March  or  in  April? 

A.  I  wouldn't  be  positive,  but  I  think  some  time  about  the  first 
part  of  March. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Hogins  ever  show  you  a  letter  that  the  Governor 
wrote  him  from  New  York? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  before  this  or  after,  that  he  showed  you  this 
letter? 

A.     This  was  before  he  showed  me  the  letter. 

The  following  was  introduced  by  consent  of  the  parties,  both 
the  board  and  Governor  Davis",  as  supplementary  to  the  foregoing 
testimony  of  Judge  J.  G.  Wallace: 

"When  Governor  Davis  remarked  to  Mr.  Hogins  that  the  board 
could  create  another  place  for  Rufe,  Mr.  Hogins  replied,  'I  do  not 
believe  in  that,'  to  which  Governor  Davis  replied, 'If  the  board  cre- 
ates the  place,  what  is  that  to  you?'  " 

R.  B.  HOGINS,  being  recalled,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 
Q.     (By   Colonel  Murphy)      Mr.   Hogins,  you  are  the   Superin- 
•endent  of  the   Penitentiary? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  306  — 

Q.     Do  you  know  Governor  Davis? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  just  state  to  the  committee  in  your  own  way  how  the 
trouble  between  you  and  him  originated — the  cause  of  it? 

A.  The  first  bitterness  between  us  after  he  appointed  me  in 
December,  1901,  was  a  few  days  after  I  took  charge.  He  tele- 
phoned for  me  to  come  over  to  the  office,  and  I  went  over,  and  he 
said  he  wanted  John  Young  and  S.  Henry  to  go  in  as  wardens 
in  place  of  Nichols  at  the  stockade  and  Barton  at  England.  I 
told  him  they  were  both  good  men  and  I  would  do  so.  John  Young 
took  charge  and  so  did  Mr.  Henry,  and1  about  three  weeks  after- 
wards Mr.  Young  took  sick  and  died,  and  then  he  wanted  me  to 
put  in  a  man  by  the  name  of  Patterson  over  at  Augusta,  and  I 
told  him  that  he  was  a  good  man,  I  knew  him,  and  I  had  no  objec- 
tions to  Mr.  Patterson,  and  so  I  advised  him — he  was  the  sheriff 
of  Woodruff  County,  or  is  now;  and  I  notified  him,  and  he  \vjmted 
to  know  what  it  paid,  and  I  told  him,  and  he  said  he  could  not 
leave  his  business  for  $75  a  month,  and  I  told  the  Governor,  and 
he  said  the  board  would  raise  the  salary  to  $100,  and  1  said  I 
objected  because  we  could  get  good  men  for  $75,  and  Mr.  Patterson 
said  he  could  not  leave  his  business  for  that  amount.  And  I 
think  Captain  Monroe  finally  suggested  a  man,  a  Mr.  Daniels, 
and  I  appointed  him  and  he  took  charge,  and  is  still  there:  There 
was  some  place  to  be  fillett,  the  electrician's  place,  and  the  Gov- 
ernor said  Sam  must  have  that  place.  He  said  I  have  had  him 
sell  out  and  move  down  here,  and  I  told  him  I  couldn't  do  any- 
thing about  it,  for  I  had  already  appointed  a  man  to  the  place, 
and  he  said  Sam  must  have  it,  and  I  told  him  that  Sam  didn't 
know  anything  about  electricity — that  he  didn't  know  any  more 
about  it  than  I  did,  which  is  a  fact,  and  that  brought  on  some 
little  strained  relations  between  us.  And  Judge  Davis  who  heard 
this  language — he  was  down  here  and  heard  this  conversation 
between  Judge  Wallace,  Judge  Davis,  the  Governor  and  myself, 
we  were  all  up  there,  and  the  Governor's  father  told  him  that 
Sam  was  not  a  suitable  man  for  that  place;  that  he  didn't  know 
anything  about  electricity,  but  he  could  give  him  something  else, 
and  I  told  him  if  there  was  something  there  that  he  could  do,  1  would 
be  willing  to  give  him  the  place;  and  so  we  talked  around  there 
a  while,  and  the  Governor  said,  what  about  Joe  Moore's  place, 
and  I  told  him  that  I  did  not  think  it  was  the  pleasure  of  the 
board  that  he  be  removed,  and  that  I  had  intended  to  give  that 


—  807  — 

place  to  Rufe,  but  that  the  majority  of  the  board  did  not  want 
him  removed;  and  he  said  if  I  get  two  members  of  that  bdard 
with  myself  to  recommend  that  you  put  Sam  in  Joe's  place,  would 
I  do  it,  and  I  told  him  I  had  no  objections,  and  I  finally  agreed  to 
it;  and  his  father  urged  me  to  come  to  a  reconciliation  with  Jeff, 
and  he  went  to  talking  around  over  the  country,  and  said  there 
that  I  had  promised  him  when  he  appointed  me  that  I  would 
approve  of  any  appointment  that  he  would  make,  and  I  said  yes, 
but  when  he  wanted  me  to  discharge  Joe  Moore  I  had  found  there 
was  three  members  of  the  board  that  did  not  want  to  remove  him, 
and  the  result  was  I  did  not;  and  he  got  mad  .at  me  about  that; 
and  when  he  was  in  New  York  he  wrote  me  a  letter,  which  has 
been  heard  of  before;  here  it  is. 

The  witness  here  produces  the  following  letter  and  reads 
same  aloud  before  the  committee: 

"The  New  Hoffman  House,  Madison  Square. 
New  York,  April  27,  1902. 
"Hon.  R.   B.   Hogins,  Little  Rock,  Ark.: 

"My  Dear  Sir — I  am  just  in  receipt  of  a  telegram  from  my  wife 
stating  that  you  absolutely  refused  to  give  Sam  a  job  under  any 
circumstances.  This  is  no  more  than  I  expected,  and  just  what 
I  told  you  would  occur  when  you  left  my  room  after  three  mem- 
bers of  the  board  had  pledged  you  that  if  he  was  appointed  they 
would  confirm  it.  Of  course  it  is  not  necessary  for  me  to  recount 
to  you  the  fact  that  you  was  making  a  very  small  salary  at  Rus- 
sellville,  and  that  I  alone  am  responsible  for  your  appointment, 
which  I  have  regretted  very  much — since  ten  days  after  your 
appointment.  I  am  very  sorry  indeed  that  I  ever  let  Sam  agree  to 
accept  a  position  under  you,  and  you  know  very  well  I  only  agreed 
to  it  after  a  very  heated  discussion  between  you  and  myself  in 
the  presence  of  Judge  Wallace  and  my  father.  I  shall  never  ask 
another  courtesy  at  your  hands,  neither  shall  I  accept  one. 
"Very  truly, 

"JEFF  DAVIS." 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy,  continuing)  Before  that — before  this 
meeting  occurred,  had  you  seen  Judge  Wallace? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   that  is  the  reason  for  that  meeting. 

Q.  What,  if  anything,  was  said  about  his  having  the  board 
create  a  position  for  your  son  in  that  meeting? 


—  308  — 

A.  Yeb,  sir;  he  told  me  when  I  told  him  that  I  expected  to  give 
Rufe  that  place,  and  I  found  out  that  the  majority  of  the  board 
did  not  want  to  remove  Joe  Moore,  that  he  would  have  the  board 
create  a  position  at  $75  a  month  to  put  Rufe  in,  and  I  told  him 
that  there  was  no  extra  clerkships  provided  for,  and  that  I  would 
not  put  my  boy  in  a  job  that  was  created  a  purpose  for  him. 

Q.  Now  do  you  remember  when  it  was  that  the  trouble  arose 
about  the  Dickinson  contract? 

A.  Oh,  that  was  a  while  after— after  he  had  asked  me  to 
appoint  Sam  to  this  place  and  I  had  refused,  he  called  me  in 
there  one  day  and  said,  are  you  going  to  put  Sam  in  that  place, 
and  I  told  him,  no,  sir;  I  could  not  do  it  under  the  circumstances; 
the  court  had  done  decided  this  case  then,  and  he  said,  are  you 
going  to  lock  these  men  up — meaning  the  men  working  on  the  Dick- 
inson contract — and  I  said,  no,  I  can't  do  that;  he  said  that  con- 
tract was  signed  by  E.  T.  McConnell  and  that  don't  mean  you; 
and  I  said,  yes,  but  it  wouldn't  take  them  long  to  add  me  to  it — 
it  would  not  take  an  hour  to  go  down  and  change  it;  and  he  said 
he  wanted  me  to  lock  up  those  men,  and  I  told  him  I  could  not 
do  it  in  the  face  of  an  injunction  of  the  court. 

Q.  Was  that  injunction  in  regard  to  the  Dickinson  contract 
the  cause  of  all  this  coolness  between  you? 

A.  I  think  that  was  after  the  crops  were  laid  by  down  on  the 
railroad,  but  he  had  not  spoken  to  me  for  months  then;  refused 
to  speak  to  me  the  first  time  after  -I  refused  to  give  Sam  that  job. 
He  went  around  and  told  parties  that  I  had  treated  him  that  way, 
and  after  I  had  done  that  I  had  the  impudence  to  speak  to  him 
and  that  he  had  passed  me  up. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  his  denouncing  you  and  villi- 
fying  you  on  the  stump  and  in  public  speeches  after  that? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  what  I  seen  in  print;  I  never  heard  any  of 
it.  I  will  say  this:  I  did  appoint  my  son-in-law,  A.  J.  White,  as 
cotton  weigher  at  a  salary  of  $40  a  month,  and  he  drinks  too  much 
liquor,  and  I  told  him  when  I  appointed  him  there  that  if  he  drank 
a  drop  I  would  fire  him,  and  he  went  down  there  and  stayed  ten 
days  or  two  weeks,  and  he  got  to  drinking  and  I  fired  him. 

Q.  (By  )  Mr.  Crockett  has  a  brother-in-law  in  a  posi- 
tion at  the  penitentiary,  hasn't  he? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  provision  in  the  statute  providing  for  that 
position? 


—  309  — 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  Didn't  you  examine  It  to  see  what,  if  there  is,  or  to  see 
what  your  duties  are  out  there? 

A.     I  don't  know — 

Q.  You  don't  know  whether  there  is  any  provision  for  an 
assistant  bookkeeper  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     What   salary   does   Mr.   Crockett's  brother-in-law   get? 

A.     $75  a  month. 

Q.    Who  does  he  assist? 

A.     He  is  the  teller,  or  helps  the  bookkeeper. 

Q.  (By  Farrar  L.  McCain)  Did  Governor  Davis,  as  a  member 
of  the  Penitentiary  Board,  ever  advise  you  that  there  was  no  law 
for  the  appointment  of  those  parties? 

A.     No.   sir;    he   never   did. 

Q.  Isn't  he  the  only  man  that  fully  understands  the  duties  of — 
he  is  the  first  man  you  spoke  to  about  the  appointment  of  Crockett's 
brother-in-law,  isn't  he — 

A.     I— 

Q.  He  was  one — did  he  raise  any  question  about  your  appoint- 
ing him? 

A.     No,  sir.     In  fact  he  was  the  first  man  that  suggested  it. 

Q.  You  just  did  that — appointed  him  because  you  thought  he 
was  a  competent  man  for  the  place? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  object  to  your  appointing  your  son-in-law — 

A.  No,  sir.  I  told  Andrew  that,  he  would  have  to  quit  his 
drinking;  that  the  first  time  he  drank  anything  I  would  fire  him; 
and  he  got  on  a  drunk,  and  the  first  time  he  <*ij  T  fired  him. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Means  Committee 


ON 


Tuesday,  March  17, 
1903 


INDEX. 

R.  B.   HOGINS. 

H.  W.  DOUGHERTY. 

B.  B.  JETT. 

CREED   CALDWELL. 

LOUIS    ALTHEIMER. 

T.    L.    POWELL. 


—  313  — 

Evidence  adduced  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  on 
the  17th  day  of  March.  1903. 

R.  B.  HOGINS,  being  recalled,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  1  forgot  to  ask  you  last  night  what 
Governor  Davis  said  to  you  when  you  refused  to  appoint  Mr.  Thatch 
to  the  position  he  wanted  him  to  have? 

A.  Well,  he  asked  me  at  that  same  time  if  I  was  going  to  lock 
up  those  men  that  Dickinson  had,  and  I  told  him  I  couldn't  do  it 
in  the  face  of  an  injunction;  that  they  might  send  me  to  jail,  and 
he  made  the  remark  that  before  any  one  should  work  there  he  would 
have  a  negro  stand  out  there  with  a  basket  full  of  pardous  and 
turn  them  out  as  fast  as  they  turned  them  in,  and  he  said  I  need 
not  fear  being  put  in  jail  that  he  would  take  care  of  me,  and  I  told 
him  I  would  hate  to  stay  in  jail  until  he  turned  me  out.  That  I 
would  rather  stay  out  than  be  put  in.  And  he  said  he  had  appointed 
me  and  he  would  put  me  out,  or  something  like  that,  and  I  told 
him  that  it  would  just  take  two  more  men  on  the  committee 
to  do  that  little  job;  and  he  then  told  me  that  he  could  get  two 
other  men  that  had  pledged  him  to  do  what  he  said;  that  he  had 
an  agreement  with  Monroe  and  that  Crockett  would  vote  with  him, 
and  I  told  him  that  I  did  not  believe  that  Crockett  would  do  that. 

Q.  Well,  in  his  letter  to  you  he  said  something,  that  when  you 
left  his  office  he  told  you  that  something  would  occur,  what  was 
that;  do  you  know? 

A.  I  think  he  left  out  something  in  that  letter;  I  think 
that  is  what  he  referred  to. 

Q.     What  was  it  that  would  occur? 

A.     That  is  it;   that  he  would  throw  me  out. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Now,  to  refresh  your  memory  on  this 
point,  that  is  all  I  care  to  ask  you  about.  I  had  been  away  before 
to  St.  Louis,  and  you  had  promised  to  give  Sam  a  job  and  didn't 
do  it,  and  I  got  a  telegram  from  Lucy  about  it  saying  that  you  abso- 
lutely refused  to  give  Sam  a  job;  don't  you  remember  that;  and 
when  I  came  back  you  called  me  up  over  the  telephone  and  said 
if  I  would  get  two  more  members  of  the  board  to  agree  that  you 
would  appoint  him  to  the  place? 

A.     That  I  would  recommend  it. 

Q.  You  did  promise  it  though;  had  promised  it  once  before 
when  my  father  and  Judge  Wallace  was  down  there  in  the  office. 
I  asked  you  before  them  to  do  it  and  you  agreed  to  do  it? 

A.     No,   sir;    I  did  not. 


—  314  — 

Q.     You   did   not? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  never  did  promise  to  put  Sam  in  as  electrician. 

Q.     I  am  not  talking  about  that. 

A.  Well,  that  is  what  you  were  talking  about  there;  you 
wanted  me  to  put  Sam  in  the  electrician's  place. 

Q.  And  then  I  asked  you  to  give  Sam  the  place  that  Joe  Moore 
held,  and  didn't  you  agree  to  give  Sain  a  place  out  there? 

A.     I  did  give  Sam  a  place  at  the  request  of  your  father — 

Q.  Wasn't  the  last  thing  I  said  to  you,  Colonel  Monroe  and 
Mr.  Crockett  would  agree  to  have  you  appoint  Sam  that  you  would 
appoint  him — 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I— 

Q.  And  that  you  refused  to  appoint  Sam  to  the  Joe  Moore 
place  because  you  thought  the  board  did  not  recommend  it? 

A.     The  board   did  not  want  him   removed — 

Q.  Now  then,  didn't  Colonel  Monroe  and  Mr.  Crockett  say 
that  they  would  confirm  whatever  you  did — 

A.     Yes.  sir — 

Q.  Now,  when  you  went  out  you  say  I  must  have  left  some- 
thing out  of  my  letter — that  I  would  turn  you  out  of  the  office — 
that  it  had  occurred  just  what  I  had  told  you  would  occur.  Now 
didn't  I  tell  you  right  there  and  then  that  you  did  not  intend  to 
give  Sam  that  place,  and  that  I  told  you  so? 

A.     No,   sir;    you   did  not — 

Q.    And  that  is  what  I  referred  to  in  that  letter? 

A.  You  said  just  what  I  told  you  would  occur,  and  you  pro- 
duced that  little  document  that  you  had  old  Colonel  Monroe  to 
sign;  you  produced  that  little  document  and  said  you  would  have 
me  removed;  that  he  and  Crockett  would  vote  with  you.  You 
produced  that  thing  and  said,  look  what  Monroe  has  signed — 

Q.  Didn't  you  tell  Colonel  Monroe  that  the  election  was  over 
and  that  he  did  not  have  to  stand  by  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    You  told  me  that  too? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  he  told  me  that  your  iron  heel  was  not  on 
his  neck  any  longer  now  that  the  primaries  were  over,  and  that 
he  did  not  have  to  stand  by  his  agreement;  yes,  sir,  and  that  is 
what  I  said. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Then  it  is  a  fact  that  Governor  Davis 
exhibited  this  Monroe  contract  to  you  and  threatened  you  with 
that— that  he  would  remove  you? 


._  315  — 

A.  Yes,  sir;  for  Crockett  had  been  up  to  that  time  voting  witli 
him,  and  he  thought  he  could  get  Crockett  and  throw  me  out. 

H.  W.  DOUGHERTY,  being  recalled,  deposes  and  testifies  as 
follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Dougherty,  look  at  those  books 
and  show  me  the  books  that  you  used  in  your  collections — the 
entries  there  in  those  books? 

A.     (After  examining  the  books)     I  think  there  are  two  others. 

Q.     Examine  them  and  see? 

A.     These  are   not  all  of  the  books. 

Q.     Will  you  please  state  to  the  committee  what  ones  are  out? 

A.     Books  like  this.     These  books  don't  cover  the  full  time. 

Q.     Those  books  don't  cover  the  full  time? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     How   many  more  of  them  was  there? 

A.  I  think  there  are  two  others  just  like  these;  they  cover 
most  of  the  time  from  November  to  March. 

Q.    What  do  the  others  cover — what  time7 

A.     May,  June  and  July. 

Q.     Did   you  turn  them  in? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Powers  steps  forward  and  is  questioned  as  follows: 

Q.     Didn't  he  return  all  the  books  that  he  had? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were  turned  in  and  were  copied  in  these 
books  (touching  the  large  books  on  the  table).  The  collectors 
used  these  small  books,  and  when  they  came  into  the  office  they 
were  simply  copied  into  these  books — into  the  record,  and  these 
books  show  the  entries  from  their  records. 

Q.     How  did  they  get  away? 

A.  I  don't  know;  they  were  turned  in  to  the  chief  collector 
and  he  entered  them  and  they  were  thrown  into  the  drawer  there; 
the  chief  collector  had  them.  He  is  expected  to  look  out  for  them. 

Q.    Was  all  the  entries  entered  on  these  day  books? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     The  day  book  is  kept  by  the  clerk. 

Mr.  Dougherty— No,  sir,  he  didn't;  we  entered  them  part  of 
the  time. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman  of  Mr.  Dougherty)  What  do  you  mean; 
that  don't  cover  what? 

A.     It  don't  cover  the  full  time. 

Q.     From  November,  1902,  up  to  what  time? 

A.     I  think  they  started  probably  November,  1901. 


—  316  — 

Q.    Would  those  books  show  the  entries  for  the  full  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy,  questioning  Mr.  Powell)  Where  are 
the  other  day  books.  The  other  day  books  of  your  office? 

A.     At  my  office,  prior  to  that  time. 

Q.     The  other  small  books? 

A.  They  are  supposed  to  be  carried  in  to  the  bookkeeper 
and  supposed  to  be  in  the  chief  collector's  office.  He  took  care 
of  those  books;  and  Mr.  Dougherty  was  the  chief  collector  then, 
and  I  suppose  he  took  care  of  them  himself. 

Q.    Who  makes  up  the   day  books? 

A.    The  clerk  in  my  office. 

Q.    Who  was*  that? 

A.     A  Mrs.  Johnson. 

Q.    Where  is  she? 

A.  She  is  married  and  lives  in  Texas  now.  Mr.  Dougherty 
was  in  the  habit  of  taking  these  books  and  handling  them,  and  I 
think  that  he  knows  that  these  entries  are  exact  copies  from  those 
books. 

Mr.  Dougherty — Yes,  but  the  only  thing  about  this  is  that  they 
are  carried  forward  in  alphabetical  order  and  the  other  books  show 
it  altogether.  When  they  are  transcribed  from  the  little  books  to 
the  large  book  they  are  separated  and  put  in  alphabetical  order. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Dougherty,  has  Colonel  Colquitt 
furnished  you  with  th*e  vouchers  from  the  Auditor's  office? 

A.     No,  sir. 

(Colonel  Colquitt  brings  in  the  vouchers  and  hands  them  to 
Governor  Davis.) 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     What  month  is  that? 

A.  (Mr.  Dougherty,  having  examined  the  voucher  handed  to 
him)  This  is  for  April. 

Q.     What  yeiar? 

A.     1901;  this  is  not  my  collection. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  I  want  those  from  November  1, 
1901.  up. 

(The  witness  is   handed  a  voucher  and  proceeds  to  testify.) 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     What  month  is  that? 

A.     This  is  for  the  month  of  October. 

Q.     Well,  that  is  not  your  collection,  is  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  317- 

Q.    When   did   you   collect   that;    in   November? 

A.     14th  of  November. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Well,  now  take  your  books  and 
explain  it? 

A.  This  voucher  is  made  out  for  $15.25.  I  find  1  collected  on 
November  14 — I  find  in  my  collection  book  November  14,  long  dis- 
tance, a  credit  of  $12.25;  also  rental:  Governor  Davis,  $1;  Jacob- 
son,  Charles,  $2,  which  1  see  would  make  the  $15.25. 

Q.     Well,  now   go   to   the   next  voucher 

A.  December  5,  is  not  here,  except  in  this  little  book,  and  the 
figures  do  not  look  like — they  don't  look  to  be  the  same  as  mine 
in  the  small  book. 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     What  bill  is  that? 

A.    December  5. 

Q.    What  voucher  have  you  got  there? 

A.     This  is  voucher  No.  6599. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)      What  is  the  amount  of  it? 

A.     $30.70. 

Q.     What  does  the  little  book  show? 

A.  It  shows  $10  credited  on — Davis,  Governor  Davis,  $1;  Jacob- 
son,  $2;  and  the  $10  seems  to  be — I  don't  recognize  it. 

Q.     You  say  it  is  not  your  figures? 

A.  I  say  I  don't  think  it  is.  1  would  like  to  see  the  other  book 
where  it  was  copied  to.  It  is  not  here. 

Q.    Well,  explain  the  difference? 

A.     I  don't  know  of  any  explanation  to  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  What  is  the  total  amount  of  that  long 
distance  bill  on  its  face? 

A.     $22.70. 

Q.     And  the  voucher  calls  for  $30.70? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Then  that  is  a  difference  of  $8;  where  does  that  $8  come  in? 

A.     I  can't  say  positively  from  these  books. 

Q.     Is  there  nothing  to  show? 

A.     No,   sir — 

Q.  Isn't  there  a  pencil  mark  on  it — right  on  the  front  of  it, 
showing  local  $8. 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  see  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  318  — 

Q.    Do  you  know  wh'o  made  that? 
A.     No,  sir;  that  is  not  my  figures. 

Q.  Was  that  bill  there  when  you  presented  it  as  far  as  you 
remember? 

A.     I  don't  remember  what  bills  were  presented  with  it. 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)    What  is  the  sum  total  of  the  bill?" 

A.     $22.70. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Now  that  pencil  mark  which  shows 
local  $8  makes  it  just  $30.70? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  except  for  that  pencil  memorandum  of  $8  local,  that  par- 
ticular voucher  shows — the  voucher  would  be  for  $22.70? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    for  that  voucher. 

Q.  That  is  the  bill  sh'ows  $22.70,  but  the  voucher  is  $30.70. 
It  only  has  attached  bills  for  $22.70,  and  that  notation  of  $8  local, 
which  is  in  there,  makes  it  $30.70? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  can't  say  positively  whether  that  is  general 
local— 

Q.  Is  that  a  sort  of  a  term — do  you  use  that  term  "general" 
to  distinguish  the  local  telephone  from  the  long  distance  telephones? 

A.     I  can't  say  that  this  term  "general"  is  used  that  way. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  What  is  there  about  it  then;  you  say 
it  is  not  your  figures — 

A.  It  don't  look  like  my  handwriting.  There  is  a  decimal  point 
in  there  that  is  not  in  between  the  other  figures  on  that  page. 

Q.     Is  that  in  pencil  or  in  ink? 

A.     Pencil. 

Q.    When  did  you  last  see  that  book? 

A.     They  were  left  in  the  office  when  I  left  there  in  July. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  it  from  that  time  until  now — since  you 
turned  it  in? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  have  not. 

Q.    Well,  now  pass  to  the  next  voucher? 

Q.  (iJy  Mr.  Whitley)  Just  refer  to  that  $10  item  there  in 
that  little  book — 

A.  I  say  that  the  book  that  that  entry  should  be  in,  I  don't 
think  it  is  here. 

Q.  That  item  that  you  referred  to  in  that  little  book — that 
$10  item,  now  see  if  you  can  find  any  discrimination  or  difference 
between  those  ciphers  and  the  other  ciphers  above  it,  and  those 


—  819  — 

lower  down  in  the  line,  and  see  if  the  ciphers  in  that  ten  are  not 
the  same  as  those  all  along  there? 

A.     The  double  oughts   are,  but  I  don't  know  about  the  ten. 

Q.  You  are  satisfied  that  the  double  oughts  are  your  hand- 
writing? 

A.     Yes,   sir;    I  think  so. 

Q.  And  the  other — the  writing  in  front  of  that  is  your  hand- 
writing— that  is  yours  also,  is  it  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  this  is  mine  (Indicating  some  figures  on  the 
book). 

Q.  Well,  will  you  swear  positively  that  that  ten  there  is  not 
your  handwriting? 

A.  I  did  not  say  that  it  wasn't.  I  asked  to  see  the  books  that 
it  was  copied  in.  I  said  I  did  not  think  it  was.  The  books  for 
December  5,  are  not  here. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  swear  that  that  ten  in  front  of  those 
two  noughts  is  not  your  handwriting? 

A.     No,  sir;   not  positively. 

Q.     (By  Judge  Murphy)     Well,  take  the  next  voucher? 

A.     This  is   No.   118. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  What  date  is  on  that  voucher,  please 
sir? 

A.     Date  paid  on,  this  is  for  December. 

Q.    Well,  you  have  got  one  for  December  of  $22.70? 

A.     That  was  November  bill  collected  in  December. 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Have  you  found  that  voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  find  this  voucher  No.  118,  for  $24.40. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Do  you  mean  that  this  is  the  total 
amount  of  the  bill  or  the  amount  of  the  voucher? 

A.     The   voucher  is   for   $24.40. 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     How  much  is  the  bill? 

A.     Attached  bills  are  for  $22.30. 

Q.     Is  that  a  long  distance  bill  attached? 

A.  A  long  distance  for  $18.90,  and  telephones  for  $3  and  si. 
and  also  a  bill — the  Arkansas  Stables,  40  cents.  I  find  credited  on 
January  13,  $18.90.  Now  the  Arkansas  Stables  is  credited  on  the 
long  distance  also;  also  telephone  $3  and  $1  credited  on  the  rental, 
but  I  can't  make  up  where  the  other  difference  comes  in. 

Q.     How  much  is  the  difference? 

A.     $2.10. 


—  320  — 

Q.  The  voucher  is  drawn  for  $2.10  more  than  the  attached 
bills  amount  to? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  the  voucher  sworn  to  by;  who  makes  it  out  for 
Governor  Davis;  is  it  the  Governor  or  his  private  secretary? 

A.  It  is  signed,  Jeff  Davis,  Governor,  by  Charles  Jacobson, 
private  secretary. 

Q.     And  it  is  for  $2.10  more  than  the  attached  bills? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  credits  correspond  except  as  to  that  $2.10? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Take   up   the   next  'one. 

A.     This  is  voucher  No.  424,  it  is  made  out  for  $22.15. 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     What  month  is  that  for? 

A.  The  bills  are  for  the  month  of  January,  paid  on  February 
11.  On  February  15,  I  find  in  the  book  a  credit  to  Governor  Davis, 
long  distance,  $18.15,  with  an  extended  rebate  of  $2.75  which  has 
been  allowed.  Also  on  February  11,  I  find  a  credit,  Davis,  Gov- 
ernor Jeff,  for  $2;  Jacobson,  Charles,  $2,  which  would  make  the 
$22.15. 

Q.     Well,  go  on  to  the  next? 

A.     This  is  voucher  No.   958. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Ilerriman)     Give  the  amounts? 

A.     Long  distance  for  March,  paid  April  10,  $50.65. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  What  is  the  amount  of  the  bill  and 
rebate— the  face  of  the  bill? 

A.     The  long  distance  is  for  $52.90. 

Q.     What  is  the  'other  bills? 

A.     $3.25.  local  rental. 

Q.     For  the   office   or   my  residence? 

A.  Governor  Davis,  that  would  be  the  office,  two  months,  $2, 
which  would  be  the  auxiliary  'phone,  less  rebate,  leaves  $1.90.  The 
rental  is  for  G'overnor  Davis'  auxiliary,  $2.  Two  months  at  $1 
a  month,  less  rebate  of  10  cents,  $1.90.  Davis,  Governor  Jeff,  $2, 
rebate  65  cents,  leaves  $1.35. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that,  both  my  house  and  my  telephone 
at  my  office? 

A.  I  would  judge  that  was  at  your  residence,  it  being  a  $2 
rate.  On  April  10,  I  find  credited,  long  distance,  $45.65,  and  then 
out  here  to  the  side  is  $7.24  rebate.  I  find  credited  on  April  10, 


—  321  — 

Governor  Davis,  auxiliary,  $1.90;   Davis,  Governor  Jeff,  $1.35,  with- 
out the  65  cents  rebate.    Jacobson,  Charles,  $1.75. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Funk)     Now  that  voucher  calls  for  how  much? 

A.     $50.65. 

Q.    What  is  the  amount  of  the  bills,  for  the  same  amount? 

A.     Bills  attached  to  the  voucher? 

Q.     Yes.  sir. 

A.  The  bills  as  attached  to  the  voucher  calls  for  $52.90  long 
distance,  and  $3.25  rental,  without  any  rebate  now — the  rebate 
would  be  deducted. 

Q.    Figure  it  all  up  and  see  what  the  total  am'ount  is? 

Av    $56.15. 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     What  is  the  amount  of  the  voucher? 

A.     $5'0.65. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)     What  is  the  rebate— take  that  from  it? 

A.     $7.99. 

Q.     Taking  that  from  it  leaves  how  much? 

A.     From  the  $48.16? 

Q.    What  do  you  calculate  the  rebate  on? 

A.  On  the  long  distance — would  be  $45.65;  and  then  Governor 
Davis'  auxiliary  'phone,  $1.90;  Governor's  residence,  $1.35,  would 
make  $48.90;  and  the  voucher  calls  for  $50.65. 

Q.    Did  you  collect  the  money  for  that  voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  was  done  with  the  other  $2? 

A.  I  find  a  credit  for  $1.75,  Charles  Jacobson,  and  I  think 
that  added  to  the  amount— the  $48.90,  would  make  the  $50.65. 

Q.    Well,  does  the  $1.75  added  to  it  make  that  amount? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Now  don't  you  know  as  a  matter  of 
fact  on  those  items,  over  this  line,  it  has  no  rebate  at  all;  that  there 
was  no  rebate  given  on  the  line  from  here  to  Carlisle — over  the 
Memphis  line? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  think  not. 

Q.     What   are  you   figuring  rebate  from? 

A.  From  the  long  distance  bills,  the  $48.65,  less  the  rebate, 
which  would  be  $7.24;  that  is  what  the  collector's  book  shows  was 
given  as  rebate,  Governor. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)     The  total  amount  of  the  statement  was 
$56.16,   and  you   collected   $50.65,  well   then   what  became  of  the 
balance  of  the  statement? 
Testimony— 11. 


—  322  — 

A.     I  don't  know  what  you  mean. 

Q.  The  other  $5  and  some  cents;  what  became  of  that;  did 
you  collect  that.  The  difference  between  the  $50.65  and  the  $56.15? 

A.     There  was  a  rebate  allowed  on  the  long  distance. 

Q.     Well,  you  did  not  collect  that  long  distance  rebate? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  certainly  would  not  have  collected  only  $48.65 
when  the  bill  calls  for  $56.15.  But  as  I  said  there  was  a  rebate 
given  on  the  long  distance  bills.  That  was  the  total  amount  of  the 
bills. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  get  the  difference  between  the  amount 
you  collected  and  the  total  amount  of  the  accounts? 

A.  I  .didn't  figure  out  the  difference  between  the  amount  1 
collected  and  the  amount  of  the  accounts  to  see  what  it  is. 

Q.  The  amount  'of  the  accounts  if  $56.15,  now  take  $50.65  from 
that  and  see  what  the  difference  is? 

A.     $5.50. 

Q.     He  lacked  $5.50  of  paying  the  full  account,  did  he? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     He  lacked  $5.50  of  paying  the  full  statement  of  the  account? 

A.     No,  sir;   he  did  not. 

Q.  That  $56.15  shows  the  amount  of  the  bills  without  the 
rebate  being  deducted? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    that  is  what  I  mean. 

Q.  Well,  now,  who  got  the  benefit  of  that  rebate,  the  State 
or  the  Governor — did  you  pay  him  that  $5.50? 

A.     I  gave  him  a  rebate  of  $7.24. 

Q.     Did  you  pay  it  in  money? 

A.     It  was  allowed  off  the  long  distance  messages. 

Q.  Well,  then,  he  did  not  receive  that  much  back  in  money, 
did  he? 

A.  I  did  not  give  him  the  actual  cash— the  $7.24  not  in  actual 
cash;  no,  sir. 

Q.     Then  he  didn't  get  it;   the  State  got  it. 

A.     He  was  allowed  a  rebate  of  $7.24  on  his  long  distance  bill. 

Q.  I  understand  that  he  was  allowed  that  rebate;  now  just 
wait  a  minute — what  became  of  that  $5.50  rebate,  that  is  what  1 
want  to  know;  how  was  it  settled;  bow  did  you  settle  that  with 
the  company  you  represent? 

A.  I  gave  them — the  collection  book  shows  long  distance, 
$45.65;  long  distance  credited  $45.65;  the  bills  were  attached  to  the 
Toucher  for  $52.90 — 


—  323-- 

Q.  The  difference  of  the  rebate  there  now  from  the  state- 
ment— the  statement  of  the  full  account— but  what  I  want  to  know 
is  what  became  of  that  $5.50? 

A.    They  received   credit  for  it. 

Q.    Then  you  did  not  pay  them  that  much  cash  did  you? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  pay  them  that  much  in  their  private  'phoiie 
rent  or  any  other  account  or  not  did  you? 

A.  It  seems  that  the  bills  show  that  the  'phone  rent  was  cred- 
ited up  with  that — 

Q.  It  seems  that  the  amount  of  the  bills,  the  statement  of  the 
'phone  rent  and  all  aggregate  $56.15,  and  there  $5.50  that  you 
don't  seems  to  know  what  became  of,  except  that  you  gave  the 
Governor  his  rebate,  but  you  say  you  did  not  turn  back  to  him 
any  money,  that  is  what  I  don't  understand  about  it? 
.  A.  I  don't  understand  how  you  make  it  out  that  way. 

Q.     You  stated  that  you  gave  the  Governor  a  rebate  of  $5.50? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  said  the  rebate  was  $7.24;  I  did  not  state  that 
I  gave  him  a  rebate  of  $5.50. 

Q.     The    difference    shows    $5.50? 

A.  The  difference  of  the  face  of  the  bills  and  the  amount 
of  the  voucher — what  the  voucher  calls  for  is  $5.50;  but  I  did  not 
state  that  was  all  the  bills. 

Q.  Well,  he  did  not  receive  for  his  private  benefit  the  $5.50 
that  there  has  been  so  much  talk  about,  but  that  was  just  that  much 
saved  to  the  State,  is  that  so  or  not? 

A.  I  d'on't  know;  I  would  think  you  would  be  the  one  to  judge 
that.  I  don't  understand  whether  you  mean  to  give  him  his 
residence  'phone  rent  or  not. 

Q.     You  counted  the  residence  'phone  in  then  did  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  after  counting  all  that  in  there  is  a  difference  of  $5.50? 

A.  $5.50,  according  to  the  bills  attached,  but  I  received  more 
than  $5.50  rebate. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  As  a  mater  of  fact  the  long  distance, 
less  the  rebate,  was  $45.65;  isn't  that  what  you  collected? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  the  Governor's  'phone,  auxiliary  was  $1.90? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  the  Governor's  'phone — the  Jeff  Davis  'phone  was  $1.35? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  324  — 

Q.    And  Charles  Jacobson's  was  $1.75? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  way  it  is  credited  on  the  books. 

Q.  They  got  the  rebate,  and  the  books  of  the  telephone  com- 
pany show  that  the  telephone  company  was  credited  with  that 
amount  though  he  didn't  pay  any  actual  money  for? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  whole  thing  was  paid  by  the  voucher;  the  'phone  at 
Governor  Davis'  house,  at  his  office  and  the  'phone  at  Jacobson's 
house? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  took  the  voucher  to  the  Auditor's  office  and  got  a 
warrant  and  took  the  warrant  to  the  office  and  that  credit  was  made? 

A.     Yes,  sir.      ' 

Q.    And  that  is  the  way  it  was? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Well,  what  is  the  next  voucher? 

A.  This  is  voucher  No.  1336.  It  was  paid  on  May  13.  My 
collection  books  show — I  can't  say  exactly  about  this  without  my 
other  books. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)    Give  us  what  information  you  can. 

A.    Voucher  is  for  $29.84. 

Q.     What  month  is  that  for? 

A.  Dong  distance  for  April,  paid  May  13.  The  long  distance 
calls  for  $18.70;  and  there  is  $2.45  I  find  on  the  day  book  for 
May  13,  a  credit  of  $2.45;  long  distance,  $14.79.  The  bills  call  for, 
long  distance,  $2.45  and  $18.70. 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     What  month  is  that  for  now? 

A.     Long  distance  for  April,  and  paid  May  13. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)     What  is  the  amount  of  the  voucher? 

A.     $29.84. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  McCain)    What  is  the  amount  of  the  bills  attached? 

A.  Amount  of  the  bills  attached,  $33.75  without  figuring  a 
rebate  on  the  long  distance. 

Q.     Does   that   include   the    bills   to    the   Governor's   house,    and 
for  his  office  'phone — do  they? 

A.  The  Governor's  residence  bill  was  not  attached;  the  Gov- 
ernor's office,  marked  auxiliary — to  Governor  Davis  for  $12  from 
February  1  to  May  31,  1902. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean,  one  bill  of  Governor  Davis,  $12,  one 
telephone? 

A.     YeSj  sir. 


—  325- 

Q.     For  back  rent? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   from  February  1,  to  May  31.     Four  months. 

Q.     What  is   the  other  one? 

A.     The  other  one  is  for  $1  on  auxiliary  for  May. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Is  that  all  the  information  you  can 
give  us  concerning  that  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  the  original  books  are  not  here  or  the  day  books 
showing  that  date  are  not  here? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Are  all  the  entries  in  regard  to  it  here? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  One  of  the  members  of  the  committee  desires  to  know  if 
you  collected  it;  did  you  collect  It? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Pass  to  the  next  one? 

A.  Voucher  No.  1628.  I  will  also  state  that  my  collection 
books  are  not  here  showing  that,  but  there  is  a  notation  of  the  col- 
lections up  there  in  the  books  of  the  bills.  The  voucher  here  is 
for  $16.55;  long  distance  for  $13.30,  and  another  for  25  cents.  The 
figures  on  the  books  show  $13.30,  with  $2  reduced;  I  judge  that  was 
the  15  per  cent  rebate.  Fifteen  per  cent  would  be  $1.99,  and  I 
judge  that  would  be  the  $2,  which  would  make  it  $11.30,  then  the 
25  cents  which  I  judge  is  for  another  long  distance  message,  being 
attached,  would  make  $11.55,  and  then  the  $5  added  to  that  makes 
$16.55. 

Q.     The  voucher  is  for  more  than  the  face  of  the  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    $5  more. 

Q.  But  there  was  no  bill  attached  for  the  private  residences  of 
the  Governor  and  his  secretary,  to  show  what  that  was  for? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    And  your  books  don't  show  anything  about  it? 

A.     My  books  'of  that  date  are  not  here. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Now,  Mr.  Dougherty,  you  begin  by 
saying  that  you  did  not  believe  that  the  $10  noted  in  that  little 
memorandum  book  was  your  figures? 

A.     I    said   it   didn't   look   like   mine. 

Q.     Now  are  they  your  figures  or  not? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

Q.     Then  you  don't  know  your  own  figures? 

A.     I  know  a  good  many  of  them. 


—  326  — 

Q.     Will  you  say  that  those  are  not  your  figures? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  stated  that  you  could  turn  to  the  items  in  these  books 
and  figure  out  and  say  whether  they  were  your  figures — 

A.  I  said  I  would  compare  them  with  the  book  and  see  if 
these  books  showed  the  $10. 

Q.     Those  figures  were  made  by  somebody  else? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  were  these  figures  obtained — you  say  they  are  not 
your  figures? 

A.     I  wanted  to  see  the  books  they  were  copied  out  of. 

Q.     Then  you  do  not  dispute  that  the  $10  is  not  correct? 

A.  1  did  not  say  it  was  not;  I  said  I  wanted  to  see  the  orig- 
inal books — 

Q.  You  just  dispute  the  fact  then  that  these  are  not  your 
figures  ? 

A.  I  would  like  to  see  the  other  book  and  see  if  they  agree 
with  that  $10  item. 

Q.  Well,  you  were  the  custodian  of  the  books  all  the  time — 
you  were  the  chief  collector? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  were  the  chief  collector? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  kept  those  books;  these  entries  were  made  by 
you  out  of  these  little  memorandum  books,  are  they? 

A.  I  say  I  wanted  to  see  those  little  books  to  see  if  there  is 
any  entries  in  this  book  that  does  not  agree  with  the  entries  in 
them.  I  don't  say  there  is,  but  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  What  is  your  belief  about  this;  that  the  entries  were  all 
made  by  you? 

A.     I  believe  they  are,  but  I — 

Q.  Well,  now  then,  this  is  your  system  of  bookkeeping;  that 
is  your  way  of  keeping  the  accounts  of  the  telephone  company — 
your  transactions  are  shown  in  those  books? 

A.     Yes,  sir.  but — 

Q.  They  are  carried  to  the  office  and  turned  over  to  the  clerk 
and  kept  in  this  day  book? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  were  turned  in  to  you  and  you  were  expected  to  file 
those  little  books  away  for  future  reference? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  327  — 

Q.  The  company  didn't  know  anything  about  what  entries  you 
were  making  In  there  did  it,  or  what  entry  you  made  in  there  in 
order  to  make  your  accounts  balance? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  They  did  not  know  what  you  did  to  make  your  cash 
balance? 

A.    N'o,  sir. 

Q.     You  had  to  make  your  cash  balance? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  when  you  would  come  to  me  with  a  bill — I  never  did 
pay  you  one  cent — I  never  did  pay  one  of  those  bills  that  you 
presented  personally — you  never  did  get  a  voucher  for  it  from  me 
individually,  did  you? 

A.     I  don't  remember  of  one. 

Q.  You  never  did  collect  one  cent  in  there  from  me  individ- 
ually; my  private  secretary  always  attended  to  that? 

A.     I  think  it  shows  that;  I  wouldn't  say  positively. 

Q.  Now  you  were  coming  there  collecting  those  bills  for  eight 
or  nine  months? 

A.  I  expect  so,  I  can  find  it  from  these  books:  T  wouldn't  say 
positively. 

Q.  Well,  that  makes  no  particular  difference — you  were  there 
either  eight  or  nine  months? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  bring  a  bill  to  me,  well  say  for  $30  long  dis- 
tance bill — say  there  was  no  local  'phone  on  it  like  that,  just  simply 
a  long  distance  bill — what  was  the  rate  of  discount  that  I  was 
entitled  to  under  the  rules  of  that  office? 

A.     Fifteen  per  cent. 

Q.     Then  you  would  get  a  voucher  for  $25.50  would  you? 

A.     If  I  would  do  that;  yes,  sir — 

Q.    After  you   deducted  the   15   per  cent? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  you  were  authorized  to  do  that? 

A.     I  did  not  present  a  bill  that  way;  no,  sii, 

Q.     You  were  authorized  to  reduce  the  bill  15  per  cent? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  am  not  talking  about  one  of  those  bills — I  am  just  trying 
to  illustrate  a  point.  If  you  had  brought  a  bill  in  there  for  $30 — 
a  long  distance  bill,  you  would  take  a  discount  off  of  it  of  $4.50? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  328  — 

Q.    And  the  other  you  would  have  a  voucher  for — the  $25.50? 

A.     Under  that  condition  I  would. 

Q.  Well,  how  would  you  make  your  cash  balance  for  the  $4.50 
deduction  that  you  gave  to  the  office? 

A.     I  would  receive  a  rebate  voucher  for  it. 

Q.    A  rebate  receipt,  wouldn't  you? 

A.    A  reibate  voucher. 

Q.  Well  it  is  just  a  piece  of  paper — a  blank  memorandum  that 
you  furnished? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  that  rebate  voucher  was  put  in  as  so  much  cash? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  you  would  have  to  take  that  voucher  to  the  office 
in  order  to  make  your  cash  balance — that  rebate  voucher.  You 
would  have  to  account  for  the  $30  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  if  I  would  take  out  a  $30  bill. 

Q.     That  is  just  to  illustrate— by  that  $30  bill? 

A.  If  I  took  a  $30  bill  out  and  collected  $25.50  on  it  and  the 
rebate  was  $4.50,  I  would  have  a  rebate  receipt  for  the  $4.50  and  a 
voucher  or  the  cash  for  $25.50,  if  it  was  a  long  distance  bill. 

Q.  The  bill  on  its  face  shows  how  much  it  was  for  when  you 
carried  it  out,  and  the  face  of  it  was  charged  up  against  you — the 
$30  was  charged  up  against  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  a  little  memorandum  kept  that  you  got  a  bill  for 
$30? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  got  a  bill  for  $30  and  collected  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  would  have  to  account — turn  in  collections  for  the 
$30? 

A.     Shows  that  I  got  these  bills,  that  is  all. 

Q.     Don't  they  keep  a  book  showing  the  bills? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Well,  that  bill  book  shows  that  the  bill  you  got  was  for  $30? 

A.     Shows  that  I  took  out  bills— 

Q.  That  you  got  bills  for  $30  and  you  have  to  account  for  that 
amount,  and  in  order  to  do  so  you  turn  in  a  voucher  for  the  $25.50 
as  cash  and  $4.50  of  it  in  this  rebate  voucher? 

A.  The  books  show  that  I  did  not  always  write  up  the  full 
amount;  just  the  amounts  I  collected. 


—  329  — 

Q.    What  do  you  mean? 
A.     If  I  would  take  out  a  bill  for  $30  and  bring  in  the  collec- 
tion it  would  be  entered  up  less  the  amount  thrown  off — 

Q.     Now,  isn't  this  the  way  you  did  that;   you  got  a  voucher 
n  the  Auditor's  office  for  $25.50? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

And  a  rer-~ '  e  voucher  for  $4.50,  wouldn'.t  you? 

^.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  7-nd  you  would  take  those  back  to  the  office  for  the  amount 
of  the  bill— the  $30  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  telephone  office  wouldn't  lose  anything  by  that 
transaction  if  you  got  it  that  way,  would  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  would  carry  back  that  $4.50  rebate  voucher  to- 
gether with  the  $25.50  cash? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  that  would  settle  that  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  would  have  to  also  take  back  this  rebate  voucher 
in  order  to  square  your  cash  account,  then  how  do  you  explain 
what  went  with  this  rebate  voucher  if  your  cash  account  would 
balance  ? 

A.  I  didn't  have  to  carry  back  each  time  a  rebate  voucher;  I 
didn't  do  so. 

Q.  Now  the  sum  total — if  it  would  run  for  four  months,  then 
you  would  take  the  rebate  back  all  at  once? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  the  bills  ran  for  three  or  four  months  then  you  would 
have  to  take  a  rebate  voucher  for  it  all  at  once? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  then  you  would  carry  it  back  to  the  office  in  order  to 
square  your  cash  account? 

A.     Credit  it  up. 

Q.  Then  how  do  you  explain  that  Mr.  Jacobson's  residence 
'phone  and  my  residence  'phone  was  paid  out  of  that  rebate  voucher? 

A.     I  didn't  say  it  was  paid  out  of  the  rebate  voucher. 

Q.    What  were  they  paid  out  of? 

A.  After  the  rebate  was  deducted  from  the  long  distance  bills 
they  were  added  in.  to  the  face  of  the  voucher  that  went  to  the 
Auditor. 


—  330  — 

Q.     In  the  face  of  the  voucher  itself? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  paid  in  the  face  of  the  voucher  that  was  sent  to  the 
Auditor's  office? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  wasn't  paid  then  by  this  rebate  voucher — that  rebate 
wasn't  used  for  paying  for  our  private  telephones? 

A.     Paid   in   the  voucher. 

Q.  The  amount  of  our  telephones  was  included  in  the  rebate 
voucher — 

A,  No,  sir;  I  didn't  say  it  was  included  in  the  amount  of 
that  rebate  voucher. 

Q.  Well,  then  you  say  that  the  private  telephones  at  Mr. 
Jacobson's  house  and  the  private  'phone  at  my  house  was  paid  in 
the  face  of  the  Auditor's  warrant  and  not  by  the  rebate  voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  are  positive   about  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  just  as  positive  about  that  as  you  are  about  any- 
thing else  you  have  stated  here? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  just  as  positive  about  that  as  you  are  about  any 
other  statement  that  you  have  made  here? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  collect  it  every  time — the  telephone  out  there  at 
my  house  for  the  entire  time  that  you  collected,  and  did  you  collect 
Mr.  Jacobson's  telephone  rent  and  my  telephone  rent  at  my  resi- 
dence in  that  way  the  entire  nine  months  that  you  were  collecting? 

A.     It  wasn't  paid  every  month. 

Q.  I  don't  mean  every  single  month — monthly,  but  for  the  nine 
months  that  you  were  collecting? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    What  was  the  telephone  rent  at  my  residence? 

A.     f2.  . 

Q.    That  would  be  $18  each  if  you  collected  it  for  nine  months? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  two  bills  for  $18  each — $36. 

' '  Q.  Well,  did  you  collect  that  $36  during  the  nine  months  that 
you  collected — I  don't  mean  each  month,  but  every  two  or  three 
months,  but  for  the  entire  nine  months  that  you  were  collector  and 
was  it  paid  by  voucher  on  the  Auditor's  office? 

A.    No,  sir. 


—  331  — 

Q.    How  much  did  you  collect  that  way? 

A.     I  got  one  check  for  $8  on  the  Governor's  residence. 

Q.    There  was  one  check  for  $8  on  my  residence? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     So  then  you  collected  but  one  check  for  my  residence? 

A.    That  is  the  only  one  that  I  remember  of. 

Q.  Yes,  sir;  well  did  Mr.  Jacobson  ever  pay  you  any  money 
for  the  'phone  at  his  residence?  , 

A.     I  don't  remember  him  ever  paying  me  a  cent  in  cash. 

Q.  Well,  you  say  that  he  did  not.  Do  you?  Will  you  say  that 
he  did  not  pay  you  any  money  on  his  residence  telephone — that  is 
the  thing? 

A.  It  has  been  something  over  a  year  ago  now,  and  I  think  I 
ought  to  have  some  time  to  study  about  it. 

Q.  All  right,  then.  Now,  did  he  ever  pay  any  money  for  the 
rent  of  tne  telephone  at  his  private  residence? 

A.    T  don't  remember  of  him  paying  me  a  cent 

Q.    Well,  do  you  say  that  he  did  or  did  not? 

A.     I  can't  say  positively  about  it  at  this  length  of  time. 

Q.     What  is  your  best  impression? 

A.    That  he  did  not. 

Q.  And  it  is  your  best  impression  that  only  $8  was  paid  on  my 
residence  and  that  that  was  paid  by  a  check? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  is  your  best  recollection? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  if  you  were  deceived  about  that  you  may  be  deceived 
about  the  whole  thing,  may  you  not* 

A.     I  think  not. 

Q.     You  think  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  can  be  positive  about  a  part  but  not  all  of  it? 

A.     r  think  the  books  will  show  if  they  were  here. 

Q.     That  is  the  pencil  books — memorandum  books? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Wasn't  the  'phone  rent  in  my  office  $4  then,  the  auxiliary? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  my  private  residence  'phone  rent  $2  and  Mr.  Jacobson's 
was  $2? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Also  making  $4? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  332  — 

Q.     Being  the  same  amount? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  if  Mr.  Jacobson  paid  his  'phone  rent  to  you  in  cash, 
and  paid  you  my  'phone  rent  in  cash,  what  would  keep  you  from 
sticking  it  in  your  pocket — that  cash  in  your  pocket,  and  charging 
on  your  books  there  our  private  'phone  rent  to  the  contingent  fund? 

A.     I  didn't  make  up  the  contingent  voucher. 

Q.     But  you  put  the  entries  on  your  books  didn't  you  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  the  amounts  are  just  the  same? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     $4  each  way? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  why  couldn't  you  stick  $4  of  our  money  in  your  pocket 
and  show  on  your  books  there  that  the  $4  was  paid  by  the  voucher 
on  the  contingent  fund — now  answer  that.  In  your  system  of  book- 
keeping your  accounts  are  put  down  just  the  same  way — our  pri- 
vate residence  'phone  is  put  down  just  the  same  as  our  office  'phone, 
and  when  you  carried  a  bill  there  and  Mr.  Jacobson  gave  you  a 
voucher  for  it  and  $2  for  his  private  telephone  and  $2  for  my  private 
telephone,  which  would  be  $4  cash,  what  is  to  keep  you  from  charg- 
ing on  your  books  the  residence  'phones  and  putting  the  $4  in  your 
pocket? 

A.  Simply  because  the  rebate  voucher  was  on  the  long  distance 
bill. 

Q.  The  rebate;  but  you  say  that  did  not  have  anything  to  do 
with  it.  You  say  it  is  paid  for  in  the  face  of  the  voucher  in  the 
money  coming  from  the  Auditor's  office;  you  said  the  rebate  voucher 
didn't  have  anything  to  do  with  that.  Now  what  would  keep  you 
from  doing  that.  You  could  do  that,  couldn't  you? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.    Why? 

A.  How  could  I  credit  it  up  and  put  it  in  my  pocket  when  I 
would  certainly  have  to  turn  it  in  to  balance  my  books. 

Q.  Why,  every  time  you  failed  to  turn  it  into  the  company 
you  would  make  that,  wouldn't  you? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  collected  that  $8  check  from  me  and  collected  the 
private  residence  'phone  rent  from  Mr.  Jacobson  did  you  turn  that 
into  the  company? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  333  — 

Q.    In  full? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Every  cent  of  It  that  you  collected? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  just  as  positive  about  that,  too,  as  you  are  about 
any  other  statement  that  vou  have  made  here  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  know  that  you  turned  in  that  check  for  $8? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  if  you  are  deceived  about  that  you  may  be  deceived 
about  this  whole  thing;  are  you  willing  to  swear  to  that,  or  not? 

A.     I  think  it  will  all  show  there;  it  is  all  turned  over. 

Q.     This  bill  is  true? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  stated  last  night  that  you  had  never  gotten  any  pay 
for  my  private  residence  'phone  except  this  one  check  for  $8? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

Q.     Didn't  you  say  that? 

A.  If  I  said  it— I  don't  say  positively  that  I  did — if  I  did  I 
suppose  it  is  so. 

Q.     Well,  did  you  state  that  or  not? 

A.     I  think  I  stated  that. 

Q.  Is  that  true  that  you  never  got  any  other  check  or  money 
or  any  other  money  or  anything  else  in  payment  on  my  private 
residence  'phone  except  that  one  che*ck  for  $8? 

A.     I  don't  know  of  any  that  I  got. 

Q.  If  that  is  true  now,  Mr.  Dougherty,  that  was  on  my  private 
residence  'phone — you  were  only  there  eight  months;  is  that  true? 

A.     I  was  there  something  like  eight  or  nine  months. 

Q.  About  nine  months;  well  say  that  it  was  nine  months;  now 
if  you  were  there  nine  months  my  private  telephone  rent  would 
have  amounted  to  $18 — $2  a  month? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  if  you  received  a  check  for  $8  that  would  only  leave 
$10  still  unpaid,  wouldn't  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  say  that  that  entire  $10  was  paid  out  of  the  con- 
tingent fund  by  a  voucher  drawn  upon  the  Auditor's  office? 

A.     1  did  not. 

Q.    What  did  you  say? 

A.     I  didn't  make  any  such  a  statement  as  that. 


—  334  — 

<4.  Wny  didn't  you  say  you  got  $8  in  a  check  and  you  say  you 
turned  that  into  the  office;  how  was  the  other  $10  paid;  you  said 
that  the  private  telephone  bills  for  Jacobson  and  myself  were  paid 
in  the  face  of  the  warrant  you  got  from  the  Auditor? 

A.  I  said  some  of  them  were;  some  of  them  were  paid  that 
way. 

Q.  With  the  exception  of  that  they  were  paid  in  the  face  of 
the  voucher? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     They  were  all  paid  out  of  the  face  of  the  Auditor's  warrant? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  there  was  $10  still  remaining  that  was  paid  that  way 
— $8  was  paid  by  check? 

A.     I  didn't  say  that. 

Q.    Whatever  it  was  that  was  paid  was  paid  that  way? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    D"o  you  know  that  that  check  was  given  for  $8? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  will  you  examine  this  check  and  see  what  it  is  for, 
and  see  if  that  is  your  signature  across  the  back  of  it  and  what 
month  ft  is  paid  in.? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Is  that  your  signature  across  the  back  of  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  much  is  that  check  for? 

A.     To  the  Southwestern  T.  &  T.  Company — $4, 

Q.    Read  the  whole  business, 

A.     5-13-1902. 

Q.     Well,  what  does  it  say?    Read  the  check. 

A.  Pay  to  the  Southwestern  T.  &  T.  Company  $4;  signed 
Jeff  Davis,  by  Jacobson. 

Q.     Turn  it  over  on  the  back  now. 

A~.    Southwestern  T.  &  T.  Company,  by  H.  W.  Dougherty. 

Q.  Then  you  have  collected  $12  for  my  private  'phone,  haven't 
you? 

A.     I  don't  know  whether  that  was  on  this  or  not. 

Q.     Tt  must  be. 

A.     I  can't  say  what  that  check  was  for. 

Q.  Does  it  not  say  the  Southwestern  Telegraph  &  Telephone 
Company? 

A,    Yes,  sir. 


Q.     $4  would  be  for  two  months'  rent,  wouldn't  it? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  you  collected  on  this  check — this  is  your  handwriting? 
A.     I  will  state  this:   as  chief  clerk  all  the  checks  are  turned 
er  to  me  and  as  chief  clerk  I  sign  them  and  deposit  them  in  the 
bank. 

Q.    Well,  you  were  the  collector  in  May,  were  you  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  but  I  don't  say  I  received  that  check. 

Q.     You  collected  the  May  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  took  this  check  to  the  bank  and  the  bank  paid  it,  and 
this  is  for  the  May  bill;  you  collected  the  May  bill? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  you  signed  this  check  on  the  back? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  stated  here  awhile  ago  that  that  bill  was  paid  by  an 
Auditor's  warrant? 

A.     May  12th— 

Q.  What  do  you  want  to  come  here  for  now  and  tell  such  stuff 
as  that?  You  got  a  check  yourself,  signed  by  me  for  that  tele- 
phone bill  of  mine? 

A.     I  did  not  say  so. 

Q.  Now  didn't  you  take  that  money  and  put  it  in  your  pocket 
and  fix  your  books  up — put  a  false  entry  in  your  books  in  order  to 
cover  it  up  and  make  it  to  your  own  interest? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  that  you  had  endorsed  it  and  turned  it  over  to 
the  bank? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  books  will  show — you  kept  the  books,  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  took  the  receipts — now  take  your  books  there  and  tell 
me  how  much  money  you  have  collected  from  me  for  long  distance 
telephone  messages — the  sum  total  of  the  whole  business — the  actual 
cash  you  collected  from  my  office  and  tell  me  the  sum  total  of  it? 

A.     I  can't  do  it. 

Q.     Why? 

A.     Because  my  books  are  not  all  here. 

Q.     Can't  you  take  the  cash  book  and  tell? 

A.     No,  sir;  the  books  are  not  all — 


—  338  — 

Q.  You  know  enough  about  the  books  to  be  able  to  tell  me 
the  sum  total  that  you  have  collected  from  my  office  for  long 
distance  telephone?  How  long  would  it  take  you  to  figure  that  up? 

A.  I  think  it  would  take  me  about  a  half  an  hour  or  more  to 
run  through  these  books. 

Q.  Let  us  see,  if  it  takes  the  whole  night.  Well,  let  me  just 
ask  you  this:  will  you  make  a  statement  showing  the  sum  total 
of  the  long  distance  bills  and  the  office  bills  rental  and  my  residence 
'phone  rental  and  Jacobson's  'phone  rental  at  his  residence  with  the 
rebate  taken  off,  and  showing  the  amount  of  money  that  you  got 
from  the  State  and  turned  in  to  your  company? 

A.     I  can't  say  in  regard  to  that  at  all. 

Q.     You  can't? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  can't  say  how  long  it  would  take  to  do  that. 

Q.     Do  you  reckon  you  could  make  it  up  in  a  week? 

A.     I  think  so. 

.j.  I  wish  you  would  do  that  tomorrow  and  bring  it  back  to- 
morrow night.  Now  will  you  do  that;  I  want  all  the  money  that  you 
have  collected  from  me  and  from  Jacobson  and  from  my  long  dis- 
tance bills  and  my  residence  bills — I  want  the  four  items;  I  don't 
mean  any  rebate;  just  actual  cash — what  you  got  for  long  distance, 
residence,  office  rent  and  Jacobson's  residence;  the  sum  total  of 
every  dollar  that  you  have  collected.  Now  do  you  think  you  can 
get  that  account  up? 

A.  If  the  company  will  let  me  into  the  books  it  won't  take 
long. 

Q.     Well,  you  can  do  that,  can  you? 

A.    I  think  I  can  if  I  can  get  at  the  books. 

Q.  You  will  do  that,  will  you,  and  bring  it  up  here  tomorrow 
night.  I  will  show  that  I  never  spent  a  cent  of  their  money. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Governor  Davis  says  that  this  is  your  sys- 
tem of  bookkeeping;  now  is  it  not  a  fact  that  this  is  a  system  of 
the  telephone  company  and  not  your  system? 

A.  I  say  this  little  book — that  is  the  way  they  handle  their 
business  there;  yes,  sir. 

Q.     So  it  is  not  your  system? 

A.    "No,  sir;  I  did  not  originate  the  system. 

Q.  The  vouchers  just  read  here  will  show  for  April  and  May 
how  those  telephone  bills  were  paid — but  you  haven't  those  books 
showing  that — 

A.     No,  sir. 


—  337  — 

EUGTENE  B.  JETT,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Your  name  is  E.  B.  Jett? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    What  is  your  business  at  present? 

A.  I  am  assistant  expert  bookkeeper;  have  been  for  some  time 
working  for  the  Bank  of  Little  Rock  before  its  doors  were  closed. 

Q.    What  was  your  official  position  before  that? 

A.     I  haven't  had  any  for  quite  awhile. 

Q.  Well,  you  went  on  a  hunting  trip  with  Governor  Davis  and 
a  party  out  in  western  territory,  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  is  it  or  not  a  fact  that  when  you  got  to  the  end  of  the 
line — the  Choctaw,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  Railroad— you  went  on  the 
Choctaw,  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  that  a  private  coach  was  hitched  on  to  the  hind  end  of 
a  construction  train  and  hauled  out  there  for  you  all  to  sleep  in  on 
that  trip? 

A.     We  went  out  there  sometime  in  December,  1901. 

Q.     Well,  that  is  a  fact   is  it? 

A.     Tes,  sir. 

Q.  In  that  party  was  Governor  Davis  and  his  boy  and  your- 
self— 

A.  There  was  Governor  Davis  and  the  Governor's  boy,  and  a 
Mr.  Thomasson  and  another  gentleman — he  lived  out  at  Shawnee,  1 
think — a  man  by  the  name  of  Reed,  and  myself. 

Q.     How  did  you  all  happen  to  go  on  that  trip? 

A.  Well,  Governor  Davis  and  I  had  been  talking  about  going 
out  there  on  a  trip — we  had  talked  about  it  during  the  summer 
months.  We  had  frequently  talked  about  going  out  there. 

Q.  Well,  you  decided  to  go  and  the  parties  that  you  have 
named  went  in  the  party  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  we  went  on  the  same  train. 

Q.  You  didn't — you  just  went  up  in  the  day  coach,  or  rathar 
you  just  went  out  there  in  the  day  train0 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  pay  any  fare? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  ride  on  a  pass  ? 

A.    1  didn't;   no,  sir. 


—  338  — 

Q.     Did  anybody  pay  your  fare  that  yon  know  ot? 

A.     I  didn't  understand  so. 

Q.  When  you  got  out  there — you  say  you  went  out  to  the  end 
of  the  line;  what  was  the  place  that  you  went  to? 

A.  It  was  no  place;  it  was  right  at  the  end  of  the  line — it 
was  right  out  in  the  prairie. 

Q.    What  was  the  name  of  the  place? 

A.     It  had  no  name. 

Q.     What  was  the  name  of  the  first  town  this  side  of  there? 

A.     Texola. 

Q.  When  you  got  there,  as  I  understand,  there  was  a  section 
there  and  the  railroad  company  placed  at  your  disposal  a  coach 
1  or  you  to  stay  in  ? 

Q.  When  we  got  out  as  far  as  the  regular  trains  ran,  to  a  place 
called  Sayre,  the  terminus — the  trains  did  not  run  beyond  that  point 
[hen;  they  stopped  at  Sayre — the  construction  train  wasn't  there 
when  we  got  there,  we  had  to  wait  about  twelve  hours  until  it 
come  in,  and  there  was  an  old  broke  down  passenger  coach  that 
ihey  had  there  standing  on  the  side  track  that  they  pulled  but  there 
on  the  back  end  of  the  construction  train  and  we  all  lived  in  that. 

Q.     You  all  lived  in  that  and  slept  in  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    You  say  you  paid  nothing  at  all  to  go  out  there? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  paid  no  transportation. 

Q.  That  wasn't  the  trip  that  Governor  Davis  and  Mr.  Briz/o- 
lara  went  on  in  September,  was  it? 

A.     That  was  another  trip;  this  was  in  1901. 

Q.     It  was  over  the  same  road,  though? 

A.     I  suppose  so;  we  went  over  the  Choctaw  road. 

Q.     How  did  you  get  back? 

A.  Well,  now  I  think  we  came  back  on  the  same  road.  Gov- 
ernor Davis  was  taken  sick  soon  after  we  started  back — he  and 
his  boy  had  a  chill — and  they  went  into  the  sleeper,  and  my 
recollection  is  that  Mr.  Thomasson  and  I  remained  in  the  car. 

Q.  They  didn't  pull  that  car  back  here,  did  they;  all  the  way 
down  here? 

A.    Yea,  sir;  it  come  back  to  Little  Rock. 

Q.  And  you  and  Mr.  Thomasson  came  back  to  Little  Rock  in 
that  car  to  Little  Rock? 

A.    Yes,  sir.    My  recollection — 

Q.    In  the  same  car  that  you  lived  is  wliile  you  were  out  tfceroj 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  339  — 

Q.    And  you  didn't  pay  any  fare  coming  back? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     Did  Mr.  Thomasson? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.    Did  Governor  Davis,  as  far  as  you  know? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  didn't  see  him  pay  any  fare. 

Q.  And  that  car  that  was  taken  from  -Sayre  was  brought  clear 
back  here  to  Little  Rock? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  wanted  at  several  points  to  switch  it  off — 
the  conductor  wanted  to  switch  the  car  out  of  the  train,  but  he 
never  did  and  the  car  came  on  to  Little  Rock. 

Q.  Governor  Davis  was  in  the  sleeper,  and  his  son,  at  the 
time  you  come  back? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  say  you  did  not  have  a  pass  over  the  Choctaw 
at  all? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  had  none. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  arrangements  with  the  Choctaw  officials 
for  it? 

A.     I  did  not;  no,  sir. 

Q.    Do  you  know  who  did? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.     Did   anybody   invite  you   to   go? 

A.  Well,  Governor  Davis  and  I  talked  about  it  frequently  before 
we  went. 

Q.    Did  Governor  Davis  invite  you  to  go? 

A.     I  was  to  be  one  of  the  party  to  go. 

Q.  It  was  as  Governor  Davis'  party;  that  is  what  I  mean — 
was  It  his  party? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  his  party  or  not.  We  all  went 
together. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  say  anything  to  any  Choctaw  official  about 
taking  you  out  there? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.    And  if  Mr.  Thomasson  you  did  not  know  it? 

A.     I  do  not  know;  no,  sir. 

Q.     He  came  over  from  Carlisle  to  go  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  all  leave  from  Little  Rock? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

A.     And  did  Governor  Davis  leave  here  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


-340 

Q.  And  he  came  back  on  the  same  train,  only  he  and  his  little 
boy  got  sick  and  went  in  the  sleeper? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     He  came  back  in  the  sleeper  on  the  same  train? 

A.    Yes,  sir;   sleeper  on  that  train. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Jett,  didn't  you  several  times 
go  with  Governor  Jones  on  some  hunting  trips? 

A.     I  went  with  Governor  Jones  on  several  trips. 

Q.     Down  in  southern  Texas? 

A.     No,  sir;  we  went  over  in  the  territory. 

Q.     You  didn't  pay  any  fare  then,  did  you? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  don't  think  I  did. 

Q.     Don't  you  know  that  you  did  not? 

A.  I  am  satisfied  that  I  did  not,  but  1  can't  say  positively  that 
I  did  not,  but  I  am  pretty  satisfied  that  I  did  not. 

Q.  We  just  got  on  the  train  here — went  on  the  regular  train 
from  here  out  to  this  place,  Texola,  where  the  terminus  of  the 
road  was? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  out  in  the  Oklahoma  Territory,  or  rather  right  on  the 
line  between  Texas  and  Oklahoma? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  there  at  that  place  there  was  a  construction  gang; 
the  construction  hands  were  there,  there  was  barely  any  houses 
there  at  all? 

A.     No,  sir;  just  a  little  place. 

Q.  '  And  where  we  went  it  was  a  barren  prairie — absolutely 
nothing? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  nothing  there  at  all. 

Q.  And  the  construction  hands  had  an  old  broken  down  com- 
partment car  down  there,  didn't  they? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  they  said  we  could  use  to  sleep  in  while  we  were 
there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  was  all.  When  we  started  back  home  I  took 
sick  and  went  in  the  sleeper? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Me  and  my  little  son  went  in  the  sleeper? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And  I  was  in  it  when  we  got  back? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  341  — 

V 

Q.     I  went  in  there  a  very  short  time  after  we  started  back? 

A.     I  don't  know;  it  wasn't  long. 

Q.     It  was  a  short  distance  after  we  started  back? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  went  in  the  sleeper  and  took  my  little  boy  with  me— 
we  went  in  there  and  went  to  sleep;  I  was  sick? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  you  went  in  there. 

Q.     And  you  say  that  there  was  no  understanding  that  they 
were  going  to  bring  that  car  back  to  Little  Rock? 
.      A.     I  didn't  know  of  anything  of  the  kind;  no,  sir. 

Q.  The  car  was  just  simply  given  us  to  sleep  in  while  we  were 
out  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  couldn't  keep  the  railroad  company  from  bringing 
it  back  here  if  they  wanted  to? 

A.     No,  sir,  and  I  didn't  try. 

Q.     And  that  is  all  there  is  to  it? 

A.     That  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Q.     OBy  Mr.  -  — )     What  was  there  about  it  that  was 

broken  ? 

A.  I  think  there  was  a  great  big  hole  in  the  top  of  it  and  there 
was  no  locks  on  the  doors  at  all. 

Q.     It  would  rain  through  it,  would  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  say  the  construction  hands  gave  you  that  car? 

A.     No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q.    Who  did? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  it  was  some  of  the  officials  give  you 
that  car? 

A.  I  don't  know;  the  only  persons  I  saw  there  was  that  cre\* 
to  give  it  to  us.  I  don't  know  who  give  it:  the  only  thing  I  know 
is  that  we  got  it. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  You  knew  that  we  got  it  from  the 
construction  men? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  it  was  on  the  construction  train  that  pulled 
it  up  there  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Who  applied  for  it? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     You  don't  know  who  did? 

A.     No.  sir. 


—  342  — 

Q.  They  just  saw  you  and  the  circumstances  of  the  case,  and 
saw  what  shape  you  were  in  and  gave  you  that  special  car;  is  that 
the  way  of  it? 

A.  That  may  have  been  furnished  before  I  got  there;  I  don't 
know  anything  about  that. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  There  is  one  question — it  must  have 
been  you  or  Mr.  Thomasson  or  Governor  Davis  that  applied  for  it, 
as  you  were  the  only  three  that  were  there? 

A.     There  was  that  old  man  Reed,  I  believe  his  name  was. 

Q.    Well,  one  of  you  four? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.    Someone  most  certainly  must  have  applied  for  it? 

A.  I  suppose  so  or  we  wouldn't  have  got  it,  I  reckon.  I  don't 
see  how  we  could. 

CREED  CALDWELL,  on  oath  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  testifies  as  follows: 

(In  Re  Charge  No.  23.) 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Were  you  ever  employed  through 
Mr.  Altheimer  himself,  or  either  by  Judge  Jones  as  attorney  or 
agent  of  Mr.  Altheimer  to  offer  what  is  known  as  the  Hayward 
farm,  down  here  on  the  Altheimer  road,  to  the  Penitentiary  Board 
for  a  convict  farm? 

A.  General,  I  don't  say  employed;  I  don't  know  that  that  would 
exactly  state  it.  Mr.  Altheimer  and  Judge  Jones  talked  to  me — 
spoke  to  me  about  that  in  Judge  Jones'  office,  and  I  came  and 
talked  to  some  members  of  the  board;  but  I  don't  know  that  there 
was  really  an  employment  about  it,  because  I  did  not  conduct  any 
of  the  services  to  a  terminus  and  did  not  go  into  and  did  not  get 
any  pay.. 

Q.  You  went  from  Mr.  Altheimer  or  Mr.  Jones  with  an  offer 
10  make — to  make  an  offer  to  the  board  did  you — at  what  price? 

A.  Just  let  me  say  one  thing,  Colonel;  I  wasn't  authorized  to 
make  a  price.  As  I  understood  it  the  question  was  whether  the 
board  would  purchase  a  farm  at  all  and  I  talked  with  three  members 
of  the  board  in  Little  Rock — I  came  to  Little  Rock  that  evening, 
I  think  it  was,  after  talking  with  Mr.  Altheimer,  and  I  talked  with 
three  members  of  the  board,  I  think  it  was — 

Q.    What  three  members? 

A.  The  Governor,  Secretary  of  State  and  the  Auditor  of  State. 
I  believe  that  was  the  only  three;  that  is  my  recollection,  that  I 
talked  to — 


—  843  — 

Q.  Now  Mr.  Caldwell,  I  want  to  ask  you  the  direct  question — 
if  you  were  authorized  to  make  an  offer  of  that  place  at  a  certain 
price? 

A.    No,  sir;  not  at  that  time. 

Q.    At  a  certain  price  per  acre? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  was.  I  will  say  that  I  am  of  the  impression 
that  at  that  time — at  the  time  I  talked  with  these  gentlemen— 
(Colonel  Murphy — No,  you  need  not  tell  your  impression.)  Well, 
the  only  way  I  could  really  get  my  impression,  the  way  I  think  it 
was — I  thought  at  that  time  that  there  was  something  in  the  neigh- 
borhood of  nine  thousand  acres  of  land  belonging  to  that  tract  and 
known  as  the  Altheimer  place;  and  I  think  I  stated  to  some  members 
of  the  board  that  I  supposed  it  cou.d  be  bought  at  that  time,  I 
thought  at  probably  from  $90,000  to  $100,000.  I  don't  just  exactly 
know;  but  a  little  after  that  time  I  had  a  talk  with  Mr.  Altheimer 
about  it  and  he  said  the  price  was  $92,500.  I  didn't  even  submit  a 
bid  of  the  place.  Mr.  Altheimer  himself  later  submitted  the  bid 
to  the  board  I  believe.  He  told  me  afterwards  that  he  had  turned 
it  over  to  Mr.  Crockett.  That  was  the  only  trip  I  made  and  I  just 
talked  to  a  part  of  the  board,  then. 

Q.    Who  were  they? 

A.     Mr.  Crockett,  Colonel  Monroe  and  the  Governor. 

Q.  Didn't  Mr.  Alheimer  and  Mr.  Jones  tell  you  the  limit  at 
which  you  might  sell  it  per  acre? 

A.     Well— 

Q.     Did  they  or  not  tell  you  that? 

A.     They    did    not;    no,    sir. 

Q.     Who  authorized  that? 

A.  That  is  exactly  what  I  wanted  to  explain  to  you.  At  the 
time  I  talked  to  them  in  Judge  Jones'  office,  there  was  really  nothing 
said  about  the  price;  the  question  was  whether  or  not  the  board  was 
going  to  buy  the  place  at  all;  that  is  what  I  came  up  to  talk  to  the 
board  about.  Later,  when  Mr.  Altheimer  came  to  Little  Rock,  the 
next  evening,  I  think  it  was — I  talked  with  him  at  the  Capital 
Hotel— 

Q.  Simply  answer  the  question  I  asked,  Mr.  Caldwell.  I  want 
to  know  just  if  they  did  or  did  not  tell  you  that  you  could  sell  it 
at  a  certain  price  per  acre,  before  ycu  left  there  to  come  up  here  to 
Little  Rock? 

A.     No,  sir. 


—  344  — 

Q.  Then  you  came  up  here  without  any  understanding  with 
cither  Altheimer  or  Judge  Jones  as  to  what  price  you  might  sell 
it  at? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  because  I  say  at  the  time  we  were  talking  at 
Judge  Jones'  office,  it  was  not  as  to  what  to  sell  the  farm  at,  but 
the  question  was  whether  or  not  the  State  would  buy  a  farm,  and 
BO  I  came  up  here  and  saw  three  members  of  the  board,  and  they 
stated  to  me  that  they  were  in  an  attitude  to  buy  a  farm,  and  I  told 
them  I  would,  like  to  submit  a  proposition  to  sell  the  Altheimer  place. 

Q.  So  you  did  come  up  here,  that  entire  distance,  with  no 
understanding  at  all  as  to  the  price? 

A.  Well,  specifically  no  fixed  price  was  named.  And  I  was 
aware  at  the  time  that  the  Dickinson  contract  was  likely  to  be 
abrogated  and  that  the  board  would  buy  a  place  in  that  event,  and 
so  I  talked  to  Mr.  Altheimer  about  submitting  a  proposition  to  the 
board  for  the  sale  of  his  place  to  them  for  a  convict  farm,  and  Mr. 
Altheimer  told  me  that  he  wanted  $100,000  for  his  place — that  was 
over  here  at  the  hotel,  and  we  discussed  the  matter  quite  a  little, 
and  Mr.  Altheimer  finally  agreed  to  bring  the  price  down  to  $92,500. 
I  did  not  submit  the  bid.  Mr.  Altheimer  later  on  submitted  that  lo 
the  Secretary  of  State,  as  secretary  of  the  board. 

Q.     They  both  told  you  that,  both  Altheimer  and  Mr.  Crockett? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  find  anything  about  the  acreage  in  the  place  when 
you  got  up  there? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  the  belief  that  there  was  nine  thousand 
acres  of  it? 

A.  I  don't  know,  just  exactly,  Colonel  Murphy;  but  I  think  I 
understood  it  from  Mr.  Altheimer.  I  got  the  impression  that  there 
was  something  like  that  in  it  from  Mr.  Altheimer.  I  thought  Mr. 
Altheimer  stated  that  there  was  something  over  nine  thousand 
acres  of  land. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  not  know  that  there  was  less  than  six  thousand 
acres? 

A.  I  thought  at  least  there  was  six  thousand  acres  according 
to  the  map  of  the  place.  I  never  did  see  the  place,  because  I  never 
had  any  further  connection  with  it.  I  did  not  even  submit  the  bid. 

Q.  You  did  not  tell  Colonel  Monroe  or  Crockett  or  Governor 
Davis  that  you  were  authorized  to  sell  it  at  $10  an  acre,  or  to  offer 
it  to  the  board  at  $10  an  acre  I 


—  345  — 

A.  No,  sir.  My  recollection  is  that  I  stated  to  Colonel  Monroe 
and  Mr.  Crockett,  that  I  believed  that  this  place  could  be  had  at  a 
price  of  about  $10  an  acre,  believing  at  that  time  that  there  was 
somewhere  in  the  neighborhood  of  nine  thousand  acres  of  land 
there. 

LOUIS  ALTHEIMER,  on  oath,  being  by  the  Chairman  first  duly 
sworn,  deposes  and  testifies -as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  You  are  the  owner  of  the  Hay  ward 
farm,  Mr.  Altheimer? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  I  am;  my  son  and  myself. 

Q.     Do  you  know  Mr.  Creed  Caldwell? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  do. 

Q.  You  once  offered  that  farm  to  the  Penitentiary  Board,  did 
you  not? 

A.      I  did. 

Q.     In  1900. 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  believe  so. 

Q.     You  offered  it  at  that  price? 

A.     That  offer  was  at  first  $87,500. 

Q.     What  was  its  acreage? 

A.     6,040  acres. 

Q.     Through  whom  did  you  make  the  offer,  if  not  directly? 

A.     By  a  written  proposition  to  the  board,  or  its  secretary. 

Q.     Who  prepared  the  written  p.oposition? 

A.     My  son,  Maurice  L.  Altheimer. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  any  member  of  the  board  before  that  was 
presented? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.    Who? 

A.  Well,  with  the  board  with  the  exception  of  you,  Colonel, 
went  down  and  examined  Hayward — examined  the  farm,  and  it  was 
right  there  and  just  about  the  time  they  were  taking  the  train  for 
Little  Rock,  late  in  the  afternoon.  Governor  Davis  said  to  me — my 
son  and  me,  as  follows:  He  says,  "I  am  greatly  impressed  with  your 
property,  and  I  am  in  favor  of  purchasing  it — purchasing  the 
property,  but  I  want  you  to  understand  that  you  must  deal  with  the 
State  as  far  as  the  price  is  concerned  like  you  would  with  an 
individual.  I  don't  want  you  to  have  any  Creed  Caldwell,  real 
estate  agent  or  anybody  else  connected  with  it.  I  like  the  place, 
for  its  location,  for  its  soil,  etc.,  and  I  am  satisfied  the  board  ia 
anxious  to  buy  a  place  at  a  price  and  to  the  advantage  and  benefit 
of  the  State  for  a  convict  farm.  Now,  gentlemen,  do  as  I  tell  you 


—  346  — 

and  I  am  for  you,  if  not,  I  am  against  you."  I  remarked  and  said 
"Governor,  we  fully  coincide  with  your  views  and  that  is  exactly 
right,  and  what  we  will  do;  we  will  deal  direct  with  the  board,  with 
you,  with  the  State."  Furthermore,  I  said  "Governor,  I  have  fought 
you  politically,  but  you  are*  the  Governor  of  the  State,  you  are 
Governor  now  of  our  State,  and  I  am  proud  to  find  you  an  honest 
man."  And  the  Governor  following,  said,  "Yes,  I  am  a  poor,  honest 
man,, — that  is  the  very  words  he  used — "I  am  a  poor,  honest  man; 
I  have  a  large  family  and  I  have  to  live  in  Little  Rock,  but  when 
my  time  expires — my  term  of  office  expires,  I  expect  to  step  down 
and  out  a  poorer,  but  honest  man." 

Q.     Now,  where  did  that  conversation  occur? 

A.  That  was  at  Hayward,  just  before  we  took  the  train  for 
Little  Rock  that  afternoon. 

Q.    Who  was  present? 

A.     My  son,  Governor  Davis  and  myself. 

Q.    Where  were  you? 

A.  We  were  at  Hayward  Station,  on  the  platform,  waiting 
for  the  train. 

Q.    What  other  members  of  the  board  had  gone  with  you? 

A.  Captain  Monroe,  Mr.  Hill  and  Mr.  Crockett,  and  well,  there 
was  one  or  two  other  men. 

Q.     Where  were  Monroe,  Crockett  and  Hill? 

A.     When  we  were  talking? 

Q.     When  you  were  having  this  conversation? 

A.     They  were  off  to  themselves. 

Q.     Had  your  offer  been  put  in? 

A.  I  don't  think  it  was.  Yes,  sir;  think  it  was  already  in. 
Yes,  I  believe  I  said  to  the  Governor,  "Our  price  is  $90,000,"  and  the 
Governor  said,  "You've  got  to  come  down  from  that." 

Q.     When  was  that  that  you  came  down  to  $87,500? 

A.     Well,  now,  Colonel,  I  don't  know  the  exact  time. 

Q.  Well,  now,  when  was  it,  before  or  after  they  went  down 
there  that  you  put  in  that  offer  at  $87,500? 

A.     I  think  it  was  after. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  where  the  offer  was  prepared — where 
it  was  prepared? 

A.  I  don't  remember  now  where  the  offer  was  prepared,  but 
I  do  remember  where  the  other  offer  was  prepared — there  was 
another  offer  after  this. 


—  847  — 

Q.  Let  us  get  through  with  one,  then  we  will  take  up  the 
other  one.  You  had  put  in  one  offer  at  $90,000? 

A.     I  did  not;   I  spoke  of  $90,000. 

Q.  Had  you  put  in  an  offer  when  they  went  down  there  to 
examine  the  farm,  a  written  offer? 

A.     I  don't  think  I  had;  but  if  I  did,  it  was  in  writing. 

Q.  Was  there  a  written  offer  put  in  to  sell  that  property  to  the 
board  at  $90,000? 

A.     I  think  it  was  $87,500. 

Q.     Prom   the   beginning? 

A.     I  think  so. 

Q.  Now,  that  offer  was  kept  before  the  board  for  some  time, 
wasn't  it? 

A.    Well,  I  will  say  this  much— 

Q.  Wasn't  it  kept  before  the  board  for  some  time,  Mr. 
Altheimer? 

A.     I  don't  remember,  Colonel,  if  it  was  kept  some  time. 

Q.  Did  you,  subsequent  to  that  time,  have  any  further  conver- 
sation with  the  Governor  about  it? 

A.  The  day  that  the  board  met  to  buy  a  farm  I  think,  if  I  am 
not  mistaken,  it  was  that  day,  my  son  and  myself  were  in  the 
front  room,  you  might  say,  the  Governor  came  out  to  us  and  he 
remarked,  he  said,  "Gentlemen,  you  are  too  high  with  your  price: 
you  will  have  to  come  down — you  will  have  to  got  down  to  $75,000; 
if  you'  will  put  it  down  to  $75,000  I  think  the  board  will  buy  it," 
but  I  said  to  the  Governor,  "We  can't  do  it;"  and  rny  son  remarked, 
he  said,  "Father,  sell  them  the  place,  this  is  an  opportunity  to  sell 
a  place  of  such  a  size  and  such  a  price;  I  am  in  St.  Louis,  and  you 
are  here,  and  I  will  be  in  St.  Louis  and  you  are  here,  and  you  are 
getting  up  in  age,  and  I  would  take  it  if  I  was  you;  you  have  prop- 
erty to  take  care  of  you  during  your  life,  and  so  sell  it  and  don't 
work  so  hard.  Take  my  advice,"  he  said.  I  remarked  to  the 
Governor,  I  said,  "Governor,  we  will  do  it,"  and  he  said,  "put  it 
in  writing,"  and  so  he  went  back  in  his  room,  and  then  my  son  — 
there  was  a  typewriter  there  in  the  office  and  he  got  permission  to 
use  it,  and  he  took  the  typewriter  and  drew  up  the  proposition — 
the  Governor  had  remarked  one-fifth  cash,  the  balance  at  1,  2,  3, 
4, — well,  I  don't  remember  exactly  the  deferred  payments,  and  he 
wrote  up  the  proposition  and  he  went  and  gave  it  to  the  board,  and 
if  I  am  not  mistaken,  he  gave  it  to  Mr.  Crockett. 

Q.     That  was  the  $75,000  proposition? 


—  348- 

A.  Yes,  sir.  And  then  I  sit  there  in  the  office  waiting  to  see 
what  you  all  would  do  and  I  heard  something,  and  I  listened,  and 
that  was  the  first  time  I  heard  a  Democratic  row.  I  knew  it  was  not 
a  Republican  love  feast,  but  that  it  was  a  Democratic  row,  and  in 
about  an  hour  or  a  half  an  hour  the  Governor  came  out,  and  he 
said  they  don't  want  your  place.  I  said,  "Maurice,  go  and  get  the 
papers,"  and  he  went  in  and  brought  the  papers  and  we  left  there, 
and  we  haven't  been  before  that  board  now  for  a  year  and  a  half, 
and  the  only  thing  I  said  to  the  Governor  was,  "Governor,  if  you 
want  the  Hayward  plantation,  you  know  where  to  find  me  and  my 
place,"  and  I  think  I  told  you  the  same  thing,  Colonel  Murphy,  and 
I  told  Captain  Monroe  the  same  thing,  and  one  or  two  others,  and 
I  have  only  visited  you  on  social  calls  since  then — once  or  twice 
since  then,  I  think.  I  knew  that  you  knew  where  to  find  me  if  you 
wanted  the  place 

Q.  And  that  was  the  last  time  you  were  before  the  board  when 
this  occurred — when  you  made  the  offer  of  $75,000.  Mr.  Altheimer? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   to  my  best  knoledge. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  before  the  board  in  person,  after  you  told 
Governor  Davis  that  you  would  sell  that  farm  to  the  board  for 
$75,000  after  that? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

Q.  After  you  told  him  you  would  take  $75,000,  were  you  ever 
before  the  board? 

A.     I  was  before  the  board — 

Q.     Before  they  took  a  vote  on  it? 

A.    Not  that  I  remember. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  making  the  announcement  to  any  other 
member  of  the  board  that  you  would  take  $75,000;  or  that  you  would 
sell  the  place  for  $75,000? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Who? 

A.     Members  of  the  board. 

Q.     To  any  member  of  the  board? 

A.     Before  the  board. 

Q.     Before  the  board? 

A.     Why,  Colonel.  I  believe  I  told  you  about  it. 

Q.  No,  sir;  you  never  did.  I  want  to  refresh  your  memory 
about  it  now;  in  that  very  last  meeting  of  the  board  in  which  your 
place  was  considered,  I  want  to  know  if  Governor  Davis  did  not  call 
you  in  there  before  the  board  and  examine  you  as  to  what  you  would 
sell  for,  and  asked  you  the  question  directly  if  you  could  not  take 


—  349  — 

less  than  $87,500,  and  that  you  did  not  swear  there  positively  thai 
you  could  not? 

A.     I  didn't  swear  before  the  board. 

Q.     Didn't  you? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  or  did  you  not  appear  before  the  board  in  that 
last,  the  very  last  meeting — the  last  time,  and  the  interrogatories 
were  propounded  to  you  by  the  Governor,  and  didn't  you  say  posi- 
tively that  you  could  not  afford  to  take  less  than  $87,500  for  that 
farm? 

A.     I  didn't  know  I  was  swearing — 

Q.  Did  you  go  before  the  board  and  state  it,  swear  or  not 
swear  that? 

A.  I  say  this,  I  was  probably  in  there  at  the  time,  went  in 
there  on  a  matter  of  business.  I  wasn't  before  the  board. 

Q.  Just  answer  my  question,  Mr.  Altheimer;  do  you  recollect 
that  Governor  Davis  walked  out  of  the  room  from  his  office  where 
the  meeting  was  being  held  and  call  you  in  there  before  the  board? 

A.     At  one  time,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  isn't  that  the  last  time  that  you  was  ever  there  with  an 
offer  of  sale? 

A.     No,  sir;  that  was  when  you  had  the  Beakley  farm  trial  up. 

Q.  After  the  Beakley  farm  was  up,  were  you  ever  before  the 
board  at  any  time? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  that  was  the  last  time.  Well,  now,  do  you  not  in 
answer  to  a  question  asked  you  by  Governor  Davis  as  to  the  best 
you  could  take,  or  if  you  could  not  take  less  than  $87,500,  state  that 
you  could  not? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that,  Colonel. 

Q.  Well,  if  it  is  true  that  you  did  tell  him  and  did  hand 
Crockett  a  written  statement  that  you  would  take  $75,000  for  that 
property,  would  you  go  before  the  board  and  state  on  oath  that  you 
could  not  afford  to  take  less  than  $87,500? 

A.  I  told  you  that  the  $75,000  proposition  was  made  when 
they  had  it  up — but  I  never  did  go  before  the  board  when  you  had 
your  own  private  matters. 

Q.  The  very  last  time  you  were  before  the  board,  did  you  not 
state  that  at  that  time? 

A.  I  never  remember  any  more  about  it.  The  $75,000  propo- 
sition was  made  in  a  written  proposition.  When  I  was  before  the 
board  it  was  a  matter  prior  to  that  $75,000  proposition. 


—  350  — 

Q.  Now,  I  want  you  to  go  back  to  your  appearance  before  the 
board  at  the  last  meeting.  I  would  like  for  you  to  refresh  your 
memory  about  it  and  answer  my  question,  if  at  that  time  Governor 
Davis  did  not  call  you  before  the  board  and  ask  you  if  you  could 
not  afford  to  take  or  to  accept  for  your  property  less  than  $87,500. 
Did  he  call  you  before  the  board  at  that  time  and  ask  you  that 
question? 

A.  If  he  did  ask  me  that  question,  I  don't  remember  it,  but 
I  remember — that  was  the  meeting  prior  to  that  last  meeting  you 
speak  of. 

Q.     Did  you  or  did  you  not,  just  answer  the  question? 

A.  I  remember  distinctly  this,  that  I  was  not  called  in  at  the 
time  you  had  that  great  row,  when  you  all  had  that  great  row.  It 
wasn't  at  that  meeting. 

Q.  Wasn't  it  right  after  that  row  that  he  told  you  it  was  all 
off? 

A.  It  was  some  time  before  I  was  called  before  the  board,  but 
if  it  was  as  much  as  a  month,  I  don't  remember;  but  it  was  some 
time  before  that  $75,000  proposition  was  made  at  the  meeting  I 
was  called.  I  don't  know  what  you  folks  done  in  there,  it  was  all 
done  behind  locked  doors,  and  I  stayed  in  the  front  room;  I  wasn't 
in  there. 

Q.     You  were  not  called  in  there  at  all9 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     You  didn't  come  before  the  board? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  ever  come  before  it  and  state  that  $87,500 
was  the  least  sum  that  you  could  take? 

A.  If  I  did,  I  don't  remember  it  (turning  to  the  stenographer, 
"put  it  down  that  way"). 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Altheimer,  are  you  unable  to  remember  whether 
you  had  such  a  conversation  as  that  at  all,  or  what  is  your 
impression,  that  that  conversation  occurred  at  a  meeting,  the  meet- 
ing before  the  last  one  when  you  made  the  $75,000  offer? 

A.  I  heard  a  racket  and  the  next  thing  the  Governor  came 
out  and  said  it  was  all  off,  and  so  we  withdrew  our  papers,  and  1 
never  had  any  more  to  do  with  the  board,  except  when  I  meet  them 
In  a  social  way,  and  only  told  you  that  when  you  want  Hayward 
you  know  where  to  find  it.  I  meant  no  disrespect  to  you,  though, 
by  that;  I  just  felt  you  didn't  want  my  place. 

Q.    Who  was  your  agent  for  the  sale  of  that  place? 

A.    Not  a  soul. 


—  351  — 

Q.     Who  did  you  confer  with  about  it^ 

A.    Not  a  soul. 

Q.  Did  you  not  at  one  time  see  Governor  Davis  in  St.  Louis 
and  talk  with  him,  together  with  your  son  and  Sam  West? 

A.  I  never  met  the  Governor  just  but  one  time,  and  that  was 
only  for  about  five  minutes,  and  we  shook  hands,  and  then  I  asked 
him  to  take  a  drink  with  me  and  he  wouldn't  do  it. 

Q.     How  did  you  happen  to  meet  him  there? 

A.     Just  by  chance. 

Q.     Was  there  anything  said  between  you  about  that  place? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     About  the  selling  of  that  place  to  the  penitentiary? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     When  was  that? 

A.     I   don't  remember  that. 

Q.     Can  you  state  what  month  it  was? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that,  even. 

Q.    Where  was  it  you  met  him;  at  whose  office? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

Q.    At  whose  office? 

A.     I  think  I  met  him  at  the  Lindell  Hotel. 

Q.  Didn't  you  meet  him  there  that  very  day  and  have  a  con- 
versation with  him  about  the  sale  of  that  place  to  the  Penitentiary 
Board? 

A.     I  did  not.     No,  I  don't  that  I  remember,  sir.    I  did  not. 

Q.  Between  the  time  when  the  Beakley  place  was  discussed 
and  the  determination  reached  not  to  buy  it  and  the  time  when  your 
place  was  up  for  sale,  did  you  not  meet  the  Governor  in  St.  Louis 
in  company  with  yourself  and  your  son,  Maurice;  and  did  you  not 
meet  there  in  St.  Louis  in  the  office  of  your  son? 

A.     No,  sir;  we  did  not. 

Q.     You  did  meet  him  there,  though,  occasionally? 

A.  I  was  at  the  Lindell  and  I  just  happened  to  run  across  the 
governor  and  I  shook  hands  with  him. 

Q.  Did  you  and  your  son,  Maurice,  and  the  Governor  not  talk 
together? 

A.     That  I  don't  know,  sir. 

Q.     And  Mr.  Sam  West? 

A.  I  don't  know,  sir.  Mr.  West  is  one  man,  my  son  is  a  man 
and  1  am  myself.  No,  sir;  on  this  particular  incident  I  just  went 
up  to  the  Governor  and  shook  hands  with  him  and  asked  him  to 
come  and  take  a  drink,  and  he  refused  to  do  it 


—  352  — 

Q.  Now,  is  it  not  a  fact,  sir,  that  you  and  your  son,  Maurice, 
and  Governor  Davis  were  in  company  together  at  the  time  or  not; 
now  answer  that  question,  yes  or  no? 

A.    We  were  not. 

Q.     When  you  met  him  there,  Maurice  was  not  with  you? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  and  Maurice  and  the  Governor  were  not  together  then 
in  St.  Louis  at  all? 

A.     No,  sir;  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.    Well,  wouldn't  you  have  known  of  it  if  you  had  been? 

A.     They  could  have  met  and  me  not  see  it. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Altheimer,  was  there  ever  a 
conversation  in  which  your  place  was  mentioned  between  you  and 
me  in  St.  Louis? 

A.     Not  that  I  remember  of,  Governor. 

Q.  He  asked  you  if  you  and  Sam  West  and  your  son,  Maurice, 
and  Governor  Davis  met  there  for  the  purpose  of  selling  this  place 
to  the  State,  now  was  there  ever  a  meeting  between  you  and  me  and 
your  son  and  Sam  West  in  our  lives? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  I  don't  see  where  Sam  West  comes  in  it.  Have  we  talked 
there  about  the  sale  of  this  place — met  there  to  talk  about  the  sale 
of  this  place  or  anywhere  else? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     Never  in  our  lives' 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  just  merely  met  there,  you  and  your  son,  Maurice,  in 
St.  Louis? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  and  shook  hands  with  you  and — 

Q.  You  just  merely  met  me  there  in  St.  Louis  and  shook 
hands  together? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  and  I  asked  you  to  take  a  drink  and  you  refused. 

Q.  Well,  I  don't  remember  that;  I  think  you  are  stretching 
the  blanket  there  a  little. 

A.     No,  no,  Governor. 

Q.  Now,  when  this  contract  was  made  about  this  place  of 
yours  down  there,  you  made  your  first  offer  at  $87,500  . 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  told  you  that  if  there  was  anything  to  be  given  as 
commissions  or  any  reductions  that  it  must  be  given  to  the  State 
and  not  to  any  agent? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  353  — 

Q.  That  whatever  there  was  in  the  way  of  profits  must  come 
to  the  State — in  the  way  of  commissions? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  you  said  you  didn't  want  any  Creed  Caldwell  or 
any  agents — 

Q.     And  you  then  offered  the  place  for  $87,500? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  was  the  time  when  we  had  the  row  about  the 
Beakley  place  and  had  witnesses  up  here? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  was  objecting  to  the  Beakley  place  because  I  thought 
there  was  too  much  water  around  there  on  that  Beakley  place  and 
that  sort  of  a  thing,  and  I  filed  that  protest  against  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  pardon  me,  Governor,  but  that  was  the  time 
when  I  was  on  the  stand  before  the  committee  and  the  only  time. 

Q.  Now  afterwards  at  a  meeting  when  you  came  to  Little  Rock 
to  see  about  the  matter  and  the  board  was  in  session  and  I  told 
you  that  I  thought  your  place  could  be  sold  for  $75,000,  and  then 
you  consulted  with  your  son  Maurice  about  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Maurice  had  written  up  your  first  proposition,  and  so 
you  consulted  with  your  son  Maurice  about  it,  and  you  finally 
consented  to  sell  it  for  that  and  told  me  that  you  would  take  that  for 
it,  and  I  then  told  you  to  put  it  in  wriing  and  submit  it  to  the 
board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Maurice  got  some  stenographer  in  the  office  to  put 
it  in  writing  on  the  typewriter,  and  I  went  on  back  in  the  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     I  went  on  back  in  the  board  meeting? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Maurice  put  the  proposition  in  writing  and  you  sub- 
mitted it  to  the  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    that  is  right. 

Q.  And  then  after  the  board  rejected  your  place  you  with- 
drew your  papers? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     All   the  propositions  you  had   in? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  secretary  gave  the  offers  that  you  had  filed  back  to 
you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Testimony— 12. 


—  354  — 

Q.  It  has  been  intimated  through  the  press  and  other  places 
that  you  were  to  pay  me  a  certain  stipulated  sum  in  consideration 
of  your  selling  your  place;  is  that  true  or  not? 

A.     Governor,  I   say  that  is  as  false  as  hell. 
.     (Chairman  cautions  witness  about  his  language  in  making  his 
answers.) 

Q.  You  never  did  that  or  contemplated  giving  me  one  cent 
did  you? 

A.     Never. 

Q.     You  never  either  stated  or   intimated   it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     There  was  nothing  like  that  stated  between  us? 

A.     Never. 

Q.     Directly,    indirectly,    inferentially    or    otherwise? 

A.     Not  at  all. 

Q.     It   was   a  straight,   honest  transaction? 

A.     Yes,    sir,    it    was,    Governor. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Altheimer,  don't  you  know  that 
you  lie  like  a  dog? 

A.  (Mr.  Altheimer  rises  to  his  feet)  Mr.  Chairman,  I  can't 
stand  this;  Colonel  Murphy  is  an  old  grey-headed  man — 

(And  then  the  chair  ordered  the  sheriff  to  stop  the  row.) 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  There  has  been  something  stated 
here  that  you  made  a  proposition  to  sell  that  place  to  Mr.  Willie 
for  $30,000;  did  you  do  that? 

A.     I  did  not,  sir. 

Q.  What  porportion  of  the  place  did  you  offer  to  sell  to  Mr. 
Willie? 

A.  I  never  made  a  proposition  to  sell  to  Mr.  Willie.  My  son 
and  Mr.  Willie  were  talking  about  2,200  acres  out  of  the  6,040.  I 
never  proposed  at  any  time,  Governor,  to  sell  him  my  whole  farm. 

Q.     It  was  never  proposed  to  sell  him  the  whole  farm? 

A.     No,  sir;    and  he  and  my  son  were  talking  about  that? 

Q.  There  was  never  any  proposition  to  sell  any  more  than 
2,200  acres  out  of  that  farm? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  at  what  price  that  was? 

A.  My  son  spoke  to  me  about  that,  and  I  told  him  that  we 
would  take  $40,000  for  it,  and  he  said  he  thought  he  could  get 
$37,000  or  $35,000  for  it,  and  said  I  think  we  better  take  it;  that 
is  all  I  know  about  it. 


—  355  — 

Q.  How  much  in  actual  money  have  you  spent  in  improving 
that  farm? 

A.     About  $75,000. 

Q.     How  many  miles  of  railroad  goes  through  that  farm? 

A.     Three  miles. 

Q.     Have  you  a  private  station  on  that  farm? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  many  cabins  have  you  got  on  it? 

A.  About  120;  and  I  have  got  a  gin,  two  barns  and  four  dwel- 
ling houses  on  it. 

.Q.  What  is  the  rental  of  the  place;  what  does  it  rent  for  per 
year — what  will  you  get  for  it  this  year? 

A.  This  last  crop  season,  if  we  get  it  all  gathered,  we  rent 
it  for  a  fourth,  and  it  will  run  up  I  expect  about  $9,000. 

Q.  How  much  of  that  land  is  in  cultivation;  you  say  there 
is  about  6,000  acres  altogether? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  6,040  acres.  There  is  in  cultivation  on  the  four 
places  2,500  acres. 

Q.     Out   of   the    6.000? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  the  balance  of  it  is  not  in  the  forest — 
virgin  forest  timber? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  with  the  exception  of  about  five  or  six  hundred 
acres  of  it  has  been  deadened. 

Q.     There  is   about  3,000   acres   in  the  timber? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  is  in  the  virgin  timber  and  the  best  land? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  close  it  is   to  the  railroad? 

A.     In  a  mile  and  a  quarter  of  the  road. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  What  kind  of  timber  is  there  on  that 
place? 

A.  It  is  gum,  oak — all  species  of  oak — and  hickory  and  elm, 
and  such  timber  as  is  found  in  the  Arkansas  River  bottoms. 

Q.     Any  cypress? 

A.  No,  sir;  no  cypress.  Out  of  the  6,040  acres  you  can  put 
nearly  6,000  acres  in  cultivation.  There  has  been  a  great  deal 
said  about  craw-fish  business,  and  I  would  like  to  say  this  about 
that  craw-fish — 


—  356  — 

T.  L.  POWELL,  being  recalled  on  behalf  of  Governor  Davis, 
deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  Mr.  Powell,  are  you  the  manager  of  the  Southwestern 
Telegraph  and  Telephone  Company? 

A.     No,   sir,  I  am  not;    I  am  the   State   Superintendent. 

Q.  Have  you  had  occasion  at  my  request  to-day  to  go  through 
carefully  the  books  in  your  office  during  the  months  that  Mr. 
Dougherty  was  collector  to  see  what  is  the  status  of  my  account 
with  your  company? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    I  have  done  so. 

Q.     Have  you  prepared  a  statement  of  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Powell,  I  want  to  ask  you  whether  the  admission  of 
this  young  man,  Dougherty,  that  he  collected  at  some  time — I 
don't  remember  the  date  now,  a  check  for  $8  to  be  credited  on 
my  private  telephone  at  my  residence — you  heard  that  admission, 
did  you? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  turned  in  the  full  amount  for  that  check 
to  the  company? 

A.     I  cant  say  that  he  has. 

Q.     Can  you  say  that  he  has  not? 

A.  I  can  say  how  much  he  turned  in  for  the  month  in  which 
he  said  he  collected  the  $8  check. 

Q.     He  don't  say  which  month  he  collected  this  though? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    I  think  he  does. 

Q.     Well,  how  much  of  that  $8  check  does  he  account  for? 

A.     $5. 

Q.  You  saw  me  produce  a  check  here  for  $4  on  my  account; 
has  he  accounted  to  you  for  that? 

A.     I  can't  say  that  he  has. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  through  your  examination  of  these  books 
you  have  found  any  discrepancies  between  the  cash  that  he  received 
and  the  amounts  that  he  turned  in? 

A.  There  are  apparent  discrepancies  between  the  amount  he 
received  from  the  State  and  the  amount  turned  over  to  the  tele- 
phone company. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Powell,  let  me  ask  you  how  much  money  on  my 
account  has  been  paid  your  company  for  the  following  items:  long 
distance  bills,  office  telephone,  residence  telephone,  from  Novem- 
ber 1.  1901,  to  May,  1902,  inclusive? 


—  357  — 

A.  Long  distance,  $174.55;  Governor  Davis,  $25,  and  the  Gov- 
ernor's residence,  $22;  total,  $221.55. 

Q.     Now  what  rebate  has  been  given — the  sum  total? 

A.     $18.54. 

Q.     You  have  then  as  a  balance? 

A.     $202.44.     Collected  from  the  State,  $220.98. 

Q.     And  you  take  off  the  rebate  and  it  is  how  much? 

A.     About   $203. 

Q.     Then  the  funds   nearly   balance? 

A.     About  a  dollar  difference. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Powell,  that  is  all  the  money  that  has  been 
received  by  voucher  during  the  time  that  Mr.  Dougherty  was  the 
collector  in  there? 

A.  No,  there  is  one  discrepancy  here  that  I  haven't  got,  and 
that  is  for  the  month  of  October;  he  collected  for  on  the  14th  of 
November,  but  his  deposits  and  credits  are  correct,  but  that  col- 
lection in  November  I  can't  account  for — $15,  I  think  it  is  cor- 
rect though — 

Q.     That  is  the  long  distance  bill? 

A.  Part  of  it,  and  part  of  it  is  for  private  telephones.  I  have 
not  verified  that.  That  is  the  way  it  shows  en  his  little  books. 
I  haven't  verified  it  as  to  its  correctness  yet. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  possible  by  the  books  and  by  the  verifications 
that  you  have  made  that  Mr.  Jacobson's  telephone  at  his  private 
residence  could  be  included  in  that  account? 

A.     I  should  say  that  it  was  not. 

Q.  It  is  not  possible  for  his  'phone  at  his  house  to  be  included 
in  there? 

A.  The  charges  during  the  period  covered  by  Mr.  Dougherty's 
collections  is  $221.55;  he  has  charged  Governor  Davis'  private  res- 
idence and  Davis'  long  distance  bill;  and  there  was  received  from 
the  State  during  that  time  $202.44,  and  the  rebate  allowed  was 
$18.54,  which  makes  the  $220.98;  that  would  show,  according  to 
those  figures,  that  it  would  be  impossible  for  Mr.  Jacobson's  tele- 
phone bill  to  be  included  in  there,  because  he  would  have  to  have 
more  money,  that  is,  there  would  be  more  extended  than  he  had 
money  to  show  for,  for  Mr.  Jacobson's  bill  during  that  period 
would  be  something  like — well  Mr.  Jacobson  has  paid  something 
like  $14.  But  there  is  the  further  fact  that  $1S  during  the  period 
that  Dougherty  collected — the  $18  is  charged  to  checks,  and  $13 
paid  by  somebody,  I  don't  know  who. 


—  358  — 

Q.     So   his    account    is    square? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  included  in  the  vouchers  obtained  from  the 
State? 

A.     Well,  if  it  is,  I  can't  find  it. 

Q.  Didn't  you  examine  the  vouchers  in  the  Auditor's  office  for 
that  purpose? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  examined  the  vouchers  in  the  Auditor's 
office. 

Q.  Well,  now  if  this — if  Mr.  Jacobson  should  have  paid  this 
boy  for  my  telephone  bill  and  his  telephone  bill  in  cash,  he  could 
have  put  that  money  in  his  pocket  and  could  have  accounted  for 
it  to  the  company  in  this  way,  couldn't  he? 

A.  That  I  am  not  prepared  to  say,  Governor,  that  he  coulcl 
or  not.  I  merely  took  the  amount  of  money  collected  from  the 
State  and  the  amount  he  turned  in. 

Q.  He  said  that  Jocobson's  bill  was  paid  by  the  State — that 
my  bill  was  paid  by  a  voucher  on  the  Auditor  and  that  Jacob- 
son's  bill  was  paid  in  the  same  way? 

A.  I  think  there  was  enough  money  turned  over  to  the  com- 
pany to  pay  it,  but  I  don't  think  we  received  enough  money  from 
the  State  to  cover  it. 

Q.  Couldn't  he  take  that  money  that  was  paid  for  my  telephone 
rent — my  'phone  rent  at  my  office,  $4 — 

A.     Yes,  sir— 

Q.     And  my  'phone  rent  at  my  house  was  $2? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  when  he  collected  this  couldn't  he  have  taken  half 
of  that  money  and  put  it  in  his  pocket  and  charged  me  up  there 
in  the  voucher  with,  my  residence  telephone — I  mean  in  his  book 
with  my  residence  telephone  and  put  that  money  in  his  pocket? 
He  could  have  credited  up  $2,  and  put  the  other  $2  in  his  pocket? 

A.     Well,  I  can't  agree  with  that  proposition. 

Q.  But  could  he  have  put  it  in  his  pocket  without  accounting 
to  the  company  for  it? 

A.  Not  unless  he  collected  from  two  parties — the  same  thing 
from  two  parties.  Unless  he  collected  from  the  State  and  from 
you  the  second  time,  and  then  he  could. 

Q.  If  he  had  collected  from  both,  then  he  could  have  kept  the 
money.  Anyway  there  is  no  doubt  but  what  he  has  not  accounted 
for  the  money? 


—  359  — 

A.  This  check  that  I  spoke  of,  it  has  the  appearance  that  only 
$5  of  it  was  turned,  making  a  discrepancy  of  $3  there. 

Q.  How  did  you  collect  my  'phone  account;  it  amounts  to 
$18  for  the  nine  months — you  have  got  no  account  of  this  $4  check? 

A.     I  could  not  find  it;    no,  sir. 

Q.     And  you  have  got  no  account  of  this  $5  check? 

A.     I  couldn't  find  it. 

Q.     And  only  $5   of  this  $8  check? 

A.  There  is  a  warrant  in  the  Treasurer's  office  that  I  exam- 
ined to-day;  it  seems  that  it  has  $5,  Governor  Davis,  long  distance 
bill,  $22.70;  office  rent,  $1;  Governor's  residence,  $10 — 

Q.     You  mean  that  is  shown  by  the  voucher  itself? 

A.     No,  sir;   the  voucher  shows  $32.70. 

Q.  How  you  get  that  my  residence  'phone  is  being  paid  for, 
that  is  from  the  books  of  the  company — 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  voucher  was  for  $32.70;  the  State  paid  the 
bills;  I  don't  know  how  he  got  the  money,  but  he  has  got  Governor 
Davis  credited  with  $22.70;  Governor's  office,  $1;  Governor's  res- 
idence, $10;  Jacobson,  $2;  total,  $35.70.  He  received  from  the  State 
$30.70;  he  shows  that  he  received  from  the  office  a  check  for  $8, 
making  a  discrepancy  in  his  account  of  $3. 

Q.  Now  what  other  discrepancy  is  there  in  the  account,  being 
in  the  way  of  money? 

A.  Well,  this  check  $4,  that  makes  $7.  There  is  that  that  he 
said  he  collected  that  he  didn't  account  for. 

Q.     What    other    discrepancy — 

A.  In  December  the  bill  is  $18.70;  total  is  $22.90;  he  turns  in 
from  the  State  $24.40;  making  that  time  that  he  turned  in  50 
cents  more  than  the  collections,  which  I  believe  he  explained  that 
it  was  collected  from  some  transfer  company.  In  November  he 
turns  in  to  the  company  collections,  voucher  for  $22.15,  and  credits 
with  bills  $18.15,  residence  $2,  Jacobson  $2. 

Q.     That  is  his  books;   not  shown  by  the  voucher? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  what  he  turned  into  the  company  from  the  day 
books.  He  credits  for  the  month  on  his  books  show  $18.15,  and 
$2  for  Governor's  residence  and  $2  from  Jacobson's  residence, 
making  the  total  of  $22.15,  balancing  with  the  voucher  issued  by 
the  treasurer's  office. 

Q.     Did  he  make  his  books  tally  with  the  voucher;   does  he? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  in  that  instance  he  tallies.  Now  the  next  one 
is  for  March.  He  credits  the  Governor's  office  with  bills,  $22.15; 


—  360  — 

auxiliary,  $1;  residence,  $2;  Jacobson,  $2;  total,  $28.15,  and  charges 
up  with  voucher  from  the  State  for  $28.15. 

Q.     Well,    the    next    month    is — 

A.  The  next  month  he  collects  $50.65  from  the  State.  He 
has  credited  to  the  Governor's  office  $45.65,  that  I  think  should 
be  $41.65;  office  rent,  $1.90;  Governor's  residence,  $1.35;  Jacob- 
son's,  $1.75,  making  a  total  of  $46.65. 

Q.  Well,  and  then  now  he  has  a  discrepancy  of  the  $4,  nearly 
$4  according  to  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  may  be  mistaken  about  that.  I  might  have 
made  a  mistake  in  taking  it  off  the  books. 

Q.  That  makes  $11  that  we  have  found  that  he  has  no  accounted 
for? 

A.  On  April  account  he  credits  bills,  $17.24;  Governor  Davis, 
$11.60;  Governor's  office,  $1;  Governor's  residence,  $2;  Jacobson's 
residence,  $2,  making  a  total  of  $31.84,  and  he  collects  from  the 
State,  $29.84,  and  the  Governor's  residence,  making  $4  overpaid 
there. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Mr.  Powell,  when  did  you  first  dis- 
cover these  discrepancies  that  you  say  is  in  this  young  mans 
account? 

A.     I   never  invesfisated  his  account  until   this  morning. 

Q.  WTasn't  you  the  general  manager  of  the  company,  and 
wasn't  it  your  business  to  do  so? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  was  the  auditor's  business  to  check  up  the 
accounts;  it  wasn't  my  business. 

Q.    Well,   has   he  checked   it  up? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  has  checked  it  up;  I  think  Dougherty 
was  checked  out  when  he  left  here. 

Q.  He  was  checked  out  by  an  officer — the  auditor  of  the 
tcompany  ? 

A.     I  could  not  say  that. 

Q.     He  was,  though? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     Who  did  you  think  it  was? 

A.     I  had  no  idea  who  it  was  that  checked  him  out. 

Q.  Now  do  you  say  the  auditor  would  not  even  report 
to  you  when  he  had  checked  a  man  out? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Then  it  was  the  auditor? 

A.     The  auditor  never  reported  there. 


—  361  — 

^ 

Q.     The  company  does  not  permit  you  to   check  out  men;   it 

employs   special   men  to   do   that? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  have  checked  out  people. 

Q.     Did  you  check  out  this  man? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     The   company  had   another   man? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  was  reported  to  the  company  as  perfectly  straight 
and  honest? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  on  that  you  gave  him  a  letter  to  the  public,  that  he 
was  perfectly  straight  and  honest? 

A.  I  don't  want  to  be  misunderstood.  I  did  not  suppose  there 
was  anything  against  Mr.  Dougherty  except  what  I  have  stated, 
and  so  Mr.  Farnsworth  gave  him  a  letter,  and  if  you  will  read 
it  over  more  carefully,  you  would  see  that  it  recommends  him  for 
handling  the  company's  money  satisfactorily  and  being  a  capable 
telephone  man. 

Q.  Well,  he  had  been  in  the  employ  of  the  company  all  this 
time  and  you  had  never  found  out  about  his  stealing  this  money, 
until  Governor  Davis  asked  you? 

A.  I  didn't  know  anything  about  the  records,  and  only  exam- 
ined them  at  the  request  of  Governor  Davis. 

Q.  You  did  not  know  anything  about  the  records  yourself, 
personally? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  never  had  any  particular  reason  for  examining 
the  records. 

Q.    Well,  did  you  see  all  these  books  that  we  wanted? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.     Where  are  they? 

A.     They  are  at  our  office  there. 
Q.     I   mean   his   private   business? 

A.     They   are   the  company's  books. 

Q.  Then  I  misunderstood  you;  the  reason  I  am  asking  you  was 
that  Governor  Davis  has  spoken  of  them  as  his  books? 

A.     They  are  the  books  of  the  telephone  company.     They  are 
books  furnished  the  collectors  by  the  company. 
Q.     Then    they    are   not   his   books? 
A.     I    don't   think    so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  books  were  taken  away  from  there  by 
Mr.  Dougherty? 


—  362  — 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     Do  you  say  that  he  did  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  books  he  had  belonged  to  the  company 
and  not  to  him? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  are  the  company's  records;  they  were 
bought  by  the  company  and  furnished  to  the  collectors. 

Q.  Then  you  didn't  have  all  of  the  books  before  you,  so  it 
is  possible  for  you  to  say  that  Charles  Jacobson's  account  wasn't 
paid  as  he  said  it  was,  and  that  it  was  improper  to  make  that 
charge  against  him  that  you  have  if  you  haven't  made  an  exam- 
ination into  all  the  books  at  the  instance  of  the  Governor.  Now 
I  will  ask  you  again — 

A.  I  will  say  to  you  that  there  appears  to  be  a  discrepancy 
between  these  figures  where  Mr.  Dougherty  said  he  got  a  check 
from  Governor  Davis  for  $8,  and  he  has  not  turned  in  but  $5  of 
it.  But  this '$4  check  is  not  properly  accounted  for  in  the  month 
of  May. 

Q.     How? 

A.  Well,  right  here  the  warrant  was  issued  by  the  Auditor 
for  $29.84,  and  Mr.  Dougherty  has  credited  up  $33.84,  making  $4 
that  he  was  overpaid  and  has  not  accounted  for.  That  included 
Mr.  Jacobson's  bill. 

Q.  Now  don't  you  think  the  Governor  is  mistaken  in  his 
charges  against  this  man,  if  he  does  account  for  these  discrepancies? 

A.     If  he    does;    yes,   sir — 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Powell,  you  are  just  as  positive  about  this  as 
you  are  about  anything  else  that  you  have  testified  to  here? 

A.  If  you  will  just  wait  I  will  read  you  the  report  again  of 
what  he  turned  in.  I  am  not  here  to  be  bulldozed;  I  have  no 
interest  in  this  matter  on  my  part.  You  have  asked  this  question 
and  I  want  to  explain  it  again.  The  Auditors  warrant  called 
for  $29.84,  that  Mr.  Dougherty  turned  in  that  much;  and  he  col- 
lected also  from  the  Governor's  residence  $2,  and  from  Jacob- 
son's  residence  $2,  making  a  total  of  $33.84,  leaving  $4  that  he 
has  not  accounted  for,  that  is  all  1  know  about  it. 

Q.  You  don't  make  any  claim  that  this  man  just  deliberately 
took  that  money? 

A.     I  do  not. 

Q.     You   don't  make  that   claim? 

A.     No,  sir. 


—  363 

Q.  For  all  you  know — he  was  checked  out  straight — for  all 
you  know  he  may  be  perfectly  straight  with  the  company? 

A.     Yes,  sit. 

Q.  Well,  if  you  didn't  think  he  was  perfectly  straight  you 
would  not  have  endorsed  that  letter  turning  him  on  the  public 
as  an  honest  and  competent  man? 

A.     Yes,   sir;    I  just  endorsed   that   letter — 

Q.    Well  you  would  endorse  it  now,  wouldn't  you? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  wouldn't  until  he  explained  what  he  did  with  that 
$3.  The  check  shows  that  he  was  paid  $3  more  than  he  turned 
in,  and  I  would  want  to  know  what  he  did  with  that  $3;  I  would 
want  to  know  whether  he  kept  it  himself  or  not  before  I  would 
endorse  it. 

Q.     What  $3  is  that? 

A.  Well  it  shows  here  that  he  collected  $8 — collected  an  $8 
check  from  the  Governor  and  did  not  turn  in  but  $5  or  it. 

Q.     Didn't  he  pay  the  company  all  that  was  due  it? 

A.     Well,  now  I  don't  know  whether  he  did  or  not. 

Q.     You  don't  know  anything  about  it,  do  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  know  nothing. 

Q.     That  is  what  I  want   to  get  at;   what  you  do  know. 

A.  Mr.  Dougherty  shows  that  he  collected  $8  and  turned  in 
to  the  company  $5. 

Q.  Well,  if  he  had  collected  $8,  Mr.  Powell,  and  that  warrant 
for  the  same  bills;  wouldn't  he  have  collected  too  much? 

A.     I  am  not  saying  that  he  did;  I  can't  say  that  he  did. 

Q.     Well,  isn't  that  how  to  explain  it  one  way? 

A.  If  he  collected  $3  too  much,  he  should  have  refunded  it 
to  Governor  Davis. 

Q.  I  am  asking  you  if  he  collected  $8  and  at  that  same  time 
got  an  Auditor's  warrant  covering  the  same  amount,  wouldn't  he 
have  collected  too  much  money  on  the  bills  that  had  been  sent 
out;  is  that  not  true? 

A.  The  voucher  $30.70,  and  he  said  he  got  $8,  which  would 
make  $38.70,  and  he  only  turned  in  $35.70,  he  would  have  been 
paid  just  $3  too  much. 

Q.  If  there  was  an  $8  check  given  at  the  time  for  what  was 
covered  already  by  the  voucher  he  would  be  that  much  above — 

A.    I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Well,  if  three  dollars  of  it  was  not  turned  on  that  bill— it 
just  shows  that  there  was  so  much  from  Jacobson  and  so  much  from 
Davis  at  that  time  from  the  two  residences,  and  the  amounts  that  he 


—  364- 

turned  in  on  that  bill  was  $3  less  than  what  it  appears  he  collected, 
you  say;  now,  didn't  he  cover  that  on  some  back  rent  that  was 
due  from  the  Governor? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

Q.     Can't  you  look  at  it  and  see;  have  you  got  no  way  of  telling? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  we  have  the  records. 

Q.  Now,  if  there  was  a  balance  due  on  Governor  Davis'  private 
account  at  the  time,  when  he  got  the  money  may  he  not  have 
credited  it  up  to  that  back  account? 

A.  I  am  just  wanting  to  find  what  went  with  it,  how  he  fixed 
it. 

Q.  Well,  if  Governor  Davis'  private  bill  at  his  residence  was 
$6,  and  Dougherty  got  a  check  for  $8  he  could  have  given  him 
credit  for  the  balance  on  his  back  account? 

A.     Yes,  he  could — 

Q.  But  what  I  am  wanting  to  find  out  is  whether  he  turned  in 
all  that  was  due  to  the  company? 

A.     No,  sir — 

Q.  How  much  was  due  from  them,  and  how  much  was  turned 
in? 

A.     Governor  Davis'  private  account  was  overdue — 

Q.  If  you  would  just  merely  state  the  amounts  you  need  not 
go  into  the  items,  of  Governor  Davis'  and  Mr.  Jacobson's  account,  we 
could  take  the  amounts  then  and  strike  a  balance? 

A.  We  had  $22.70  against  Governor  Davis  at  his  office  and 
$8  against  his  residence,  I  think.  I  haven't  got  that  account — 

Q.     Can  you  get  it? 

A.     I  suppose  I  can  get  it  by  going  back  for  that  month. 

Q.     How  much  did  he  turn  in? 

A.     $35. 

Q.     You  had  $20  long  distance? 

A.  H  paid  $22.70  long  distance;  $1  at  the  office,  $10  at  the 
residence,  and  Jacobson  $2 — making  a  total  of  $35.70. 

Q.     And  he  turned  in  how  much? 

A.     $35.70. 

Q.     That  same  day? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     How  much  was  due? 

A.     I  am  not  prepared  to  say;  but  he  says  he  collected  $38.70.. 

Q.     And  only  turned  in  $35? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  365  — 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Powell,  when  was  it  he  said  he 
turned  in  $38,  what  month  was  that  for? 

A.     December   for  November. 

Q.  How  much  of  that  would  be  taken  off  for  rebate,  long 
distance  messages,  any? 

A.  I  can't  say,  Colonel  Murphy,  how  much  was  taken  off  for 
rebate  on  the  long  distance  telephone.  I  am  not  prepared  to  say. 
I  haven't  got  the  voucher. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  There  is  a  difference  now  of  $3  dis- 
crepancy from  your  books,  and  from  the  fact  that  he  has  testified 
about  having  collected  $8 — 

A.  Mr.  Dougherty  testified  that  he  had  collected  an  $8  check 
from  Governor  Davis  for  this  month,  and  our  books  show  that 
he  only  turned  in  $5  of  it — 

Q.  And  you  say  there  is  a  discrepancy  of  $3  here,  now,  I  want 
to  know  whether  you  have  that  from  your  own  books,  or  how  do 
you  find  it  to  testify  about  it? 

A.     No,  sir;  my  books  don't  show  any  discrepancy. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  When  did  you  state  that  Mr.  Dougherty 
had  collected  $38? 

A.  He  didn't  state  that  he  had  collected  $38;  he  said  that  ha 
had  received  a  check  from  Governor  Davis  for  $8  in  this  month. 

Q.  Did  you  find  that  discrepancy  before  to-night  or  this  morn- 
ing, and  in  which  month  did  you  find  it? 

A.  I  heard  Mr.  Dougherty's  statement  last  night  in  reference 
to  having  collected  the  check. 

Q.     In  what  month  did  he  say  that  he  had  collected  it? 

A.     He  didn't  state  what  month. 

Q.     Then,  where  did  you  find  it? 

A.  I  found  it  in  the  month  of  November,  where  he  had  collecta-.i 
it  in  December,  where  he  had  credited  Governor  Davis  and  Jacoo- 
son's  account  with  $35.70,  when  the  auditor  shows  it  for  $30,7<> 
collected. 

Q.     That  he  had  credited  them  with  that  much? 

A.  He  had  credited  them  with  $5  more  than  he  had  receive! 
from  the  auditor's  office. 

Q.  Then  you  were  the  ones  that  got  the  benefit  of  the  $5  too 
much? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  What  do  Governor  Davis  and  Mr. 
Jacobson's  telephone  bill  and  long  distance  bills  all  amount  to 
during  the  periods  covered  by  Mr.  Dougherty's  collections? 


—  366  — 

A.     The  Governor's  $221.55,  Jacobson's  $18. 

Q.     That  was  from  when  to  when? 

A.     From  November  to  June,  1901  to  1902. 

Q.  Does  that  embrace  the  whole  time  that  Mr.  Dougherty 
collected  for  you? 

A.  With  the  exception  of  the  month  of  October,  when  the 
collection  he  made  was  fifteen  something,  but  I  think  we  got  that. 

Q.  What  is  the  difference  between  the  total  amount  he  collected 
during  that  time  and  the  amount  he  turned  in,  if  you  deduct  the 
fifteen  per  cent  rebate^  for  the  long  distance  telephone? 

A.     About  one  dollar. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Do  you  know  how  this  rebate  busi- 
ness is  accounted  for  on  the  books,  whether  it  is  accounted  for  as 
so  much  cash  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  don't  know. 

Q.     Who  knows  about  it? 

A.     I   presume  Mr.  -  -  and  Mr.   Deshon,   they  are 

the  only  ones  that  know  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Your  books  don't  show  that  Jacobson  is  owing  for  his 
telephone  bills  during  that  time,  do  they? 

A.     No,  sir;    shows  his  bills  paid  promptly  each  month. 

Q.  Then  it  is  a  question  of  veracity  between  Mr.  Jacobson  and 
Mr.  Dougherty  as  to  whether  that  was  paid  in  cash,  that,  of  course, 
would  be  for  the  committee? 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  the  warrant  paid  by  the  treasury 
states  as  follows — I  have  read  this  statement  once,  but  I  will  read 
it  again;  I  would  state  that  Governor  Davis  paid  $221.55 — the 
warrant  was  for  $202.44;  rebate  was  $18.54,  which  would  make 
$220.98,  leaving  a  difference  of  less  than  one  dollar. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Powell,  they  make  all  this  fuss 
about  $3,  they  don't  go  into  the  proposition  that  you  stated  that 
this  man  took  in  a  considerable  amount  of  money  that  you  have 
not  received — the  sum  total  of,  for  my  private  telephone  and  for 
Jacobson's  that  he  has  not  accounted  for,  didn't  you  say  that? 

A.     If  it  is  in  there,  I  can't  find  it. 

Q.  Have  you  searched  carefully  to  see  if  there  was  any  indi- 
vidual bills  improperly  paid  by  the  State? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Dougherty  swears  that  it  was  paid  by  the  State;  you 
say  that  there  was  no  individual  bills  paid  by  the  State;  he  said 
that  the  voucher  included  Jacobson's  private  telephone  bills,  and 


—  367  — 

you  say  there  is  a  discrepancy  between  the  amounts  he  reported  to 
have  collected  and  the  amounts  he  turned  in  to  the  office? 

A.     I  say  it  appears  to  be  a  discrepancy. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Now,  when  you  speak  about  the 
amount  paid  by  the  State,  do  you  mean  the  amount  shown  by  the 
vouchers,  or  rather  by  the  warrants? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Have  you  seen  the  mislaid  warrant  or  voucher? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  didn't  see  the  November  warrant. 

Q.     Did  you  find  that  it  was  for  less? 

A.  The  November  warrant;  I  don't  think  the  November  war- 
rant was  produced  to  me.  I  think  the  clerk  said  that  it  was  mislaid. 

Q.     So  you  do  not  include  that  in  this  total? 

A.  I  taken  the  treasurer's  books  for  the  amount  that  was  paid 
to  Dougherty  and  checked  his  account  with  that. 

Q.  Now,  how  much  does  the  amount  that  was  paid  in  and  the 
the  amount  that  Dougherty  shows  that  was  paid  in  money,  how 
much  does  it  lack  of  being  sufficient  to  embrace  Jacobson's  account 
and  the  Governor's? 

A.     $18. 

Q.     Did  you  include  in  that  the  cash  that  he  says  he  received? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  the  $5  and  the  $4— $9. 

Q.  So  then,  he  has  paid  you  up  within  one  dollar  of  all  the  bills 
that  he  had  out? 

A.     There  appears  to  be  a  discrepancy  of  less  than  one  dollar. 

Q.     He  had  Jacobson's  bill  and  he  had  the  Governor's — 

A.     Had  all  the  bills. 

Q.  If  there  is  only  a  difference  of  $1,  how  can  you  say  then 
that  it  lacks  $18  of  being  sufficient  to  embrace  Jacobson's  bills? 

A.     There  is  only  one  dollar  difference  in  the  Governor's  bills. 

Q.     And  Jacobson's  is  not  included? 

A.  No,  sir.  Only  one  dollar's  difference,  leaving  Jacobson's 
bill  out  of  the  question  entirely;  one  dollar's  difference  on  the 
Governor's  bills. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  the  total  amount  of  Jacobson's  bill  and 
the  amount  of  the  Governor's  bills  was  not  the  amount  that  Le 
paid  in? 

A.  Jacobson's  bill  was  $18,  and  if  you  add  that  to  the  Gov- 
ernor's bill  would  make  it  $239.55. 


—  368  — 

Q.     And  he  has  turned  in  how  much? 

A.  $202.44,  after  deducting  the  rebate  given  the  State  on  tho 
long  distance  bills. 

Q.     How -do  you  know  that? 

A.     From  the  State  warrants  and  from  the  treasurer's  books. 

Q.  He  has  simply  turned  in  in  the  way  that  he  says  all  the 
money  that  was  due  the  company  on  Jacobson's  telephone  and  the 
Governor's  telephones  less  one  dollar? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis) ,  You  do  say  that  he  turned  in,  or 
Dougherty's  books  show  that  he  has  turned  in  sufficient  amount  of 
money  to  balance? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  with  the  exception  of  the  $1. 

Q.  You  have  examined  the  treasurer's  books,  and  you  find 
from  them  and  the  amount  of  money  collected  from  the  treasurer 
and  turned  in,  just  lacks  $1  of  balancing? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  that  does  not  include  Jacobson's  bill? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.  And  shows  that  Jacobson's  bills  have  been  paid  for  some 
other  way? 

A.     That  is  it;  yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  it  has  been  paid,  though,  you  don't  know? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     It  is  meant  here,  though,  to  get  it  into  these  figures? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Means  Committee 


ON 


Wednesday,  March  18, 
1903 


INDEX. 

HON.  T.  C.  MONROE. 

HON.  FRANK  HILL. 

LOUIS   ALTHEIMER,  Recalled. 

JOHN  WILLIE. 

CHARLES  WATKINS. 

H.  W.  DOUGHERTY. 


—  371  — 

Testimony  taken  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  on  the 
18th  day  of  March,  1903. 

HON.  T.  C.  MONROE,  being  recalled,  testified  as  follows,  touch- 
ing the  convict  farm: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Colonel  Monroe,  you  are  the  State 
Auditor? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  have  been  State  Auditor  for  over  two  years? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  offer  of  the  Altheimer  and  the  Beak- 
ley  places  and  others  to  the  board  for  a  convict  farm? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     At  what  price  was  the  Altheimer  place  offered? 

A.  $87,500  was  the  only  figure  I  ever  heard;  the  lowest  one 
I  ever  heard. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  last  time  the  purchase  of  that  farm 
was  ever  discussed  in  a  board  meeting;  I  mean  the  board's  voting 
upon  it;  I  want  to  know  whether  you  remember  the  time  or  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  we  voted  upon  it,  the  board  did,  but  I  don't 
remember  ever  having  it  up  after  that  in  board  meeting. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  now  as  a  fact  that  the  board  voted 
against  its  purchase? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  who  moved  the  acceptance  of  the 
Altheimer  place? 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  Governor  Davis  moved  the  accep- 
tance of  the  proposition. 

Q.     What  proposition  was  it  that  he  moved  the  acceptance  of? 

A.     The   $87,500. 

Q.     And  that  was  voted  down? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Did  ever  Governor  Davis  or  anybody  else  ever  give  you 
any  intimation  or  any  understanding  at  all  that  it  ever  had  been 
offered  to  the  board  for  $75,000 — that  Altheimer  place?  Or  that 
$75,000  would  buy  that  Altheimer  place? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  have  never  heard  of  that? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  hear,  the  first  time,  if  at  all,  that  Mr.  Althei- 
mer had  claimed  to  have  authorized  Governor  Davis  to  sell  it  to 
the  board  for  $75,000? 


--  372  — 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  ever  heard  of  it  in  any  boiard  meet- 
ing. I  heard  it  afterwards,  perhaps,  but  I  don't  remember.  That 
was  after  we  had  voted  upon  it,  though. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  or  not  Governor  Davis  at  that 
time,  or  when  he  moved  to  accept  the  Altheimer  proposition  and 
our  having  voted  upon  it,  before  the  vote  was  taken,  make  any 
statements  about  Mr.  Altheimer,  what  he  would  accept  and  what 
he  had  done — 

A.  Well,  I  can't  make  a  statement  as  to  it,  Colonel  Murphy. 
There  was  considerable  talk  there  at  the  time,  but  I  can't  say  as  to 
just  any  particular  meeting  of  the  board — • 

Q.  Well,  do  you  recollect  whether  Mr.  Davis  called  Mr.  Althei- 
mer before  the  board  and  asked  him  whether  he  would  take  less 
than  $87,500  for  that  place? 

A.     Yes,   sir.     Mr.   Altheimer  was  called  in. 

Q.     Who    called    him    in,    Colonel? 

A.     The  Governor. 

Q.  And  do  you  remember  whether  he  was  asked  if  he  could 
take  less  than  $87,500. 

A.     Yes,  sir;    Governor  Davis  asked  the  question. 

Q.     Tell  the  committee  what  response  Mr.  Altheimer  made? 

A.  Mr.  Altheimer,  as  well  as  I  remember,  said  that  he  con- 
sidered that  the  lowest  price  that  he  could  take  for  the  farm; 
that  he  regarded  it  as  a  place  for  an  ideal  convict  farm — just 
in  keeping  with  what  the  Governor  had  stated  in  recommending 
it  to  the  board  I  believe,  before  the  motion  was  made  to  accept 
the  proposition. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before  the  vote  was  taken  on  the 
motion  to  accept  the  Altheimer  proposition? 

A.     It  was  not  very  long. 

Q.  Give  us  some  idea,  Colonel;  was  it  the  same  meeting:  the 
same  day  or  same  hour,  or  when? 

A.  This  was  at  the  same  board  meeting,  the  same  hour — the 
meeting  was  held  perhaps  an  hour  or  an  hour  and  a  half  or  two- 
hours. 

Q.  What  occurred  when  the  board  refused  to  accept  the 
$87,500  proposition;  do  you  remember? 

A.  The  Governor,  after  the  vote  was  taken,  went  out  of  the 
room;  out  into  the  ante-room,,  where  I  saw  Mr.  Altheimer  after- 
wards, when  the  meeting  adjourned. 


—  373  — 

Q.  Well,  was  there  anything  in  the  way  of  a  disturbance  there 
in  the  board  meeting  in  consequence  of  the  action  of  the  board 
in  its  vote  on  that  motion? 

A.  I  don't  know  about  a  disturbance.  I  know  the  Governor 
reproved  the  board  in  rather  severe  terms;  said  that  the  board  had 
no  respect  for  him,  and  said  a  good  deal  of  hard  things;  I  don't 
remember  all  that  he  did  say  now,  Colonel,  and  I  think  he  was 
disturbed  right  smart  and  showed  some  anger;  said  the  board  had 
no  respect  for  him,  or  a  majority  of  it. 

Q.  Did  that  board  ever  have  any  other  proposition  to  purchase 
that  farm  except  the  $87,500? 

A.     No,  sir;   none  that  I  ever  knew  anything  about. 

Q.     Wouldn't  you  have  known  about  it  if  there  had  of  been? 

A.     I  think  I  would;   yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  Governor  ever  tell  you,  or  tell  anybody  in  your 
presence,  that  he  was  authorized  to  sell  it  to  the  board  at  $75,000; 
did  he  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  you  to  tell  us  what  it  was  you  started  to 
say  a  moment  ago;  you  started  to  say  something  about  the.  Gov- 
ernor, or  you  have  testified  something  about  the  Governor  having 
called  you  in — not  in  a  board  meeting — and  asking  you  if  he  would 
drain  that  farm  with  tiling  if  you  would  vote  to  buy  it,  and  if  you 
told  him  that  you  would  not,  and  then  you  went  on  to  say  that  he 
said  something  to  you  that  you  did  not  repeat;  now  I  want  you  to 
repeat  anything  else  that  he  said,  if  he  said  anything  else  on. 
that  occasion? 

A.  I  was  called  in  to  Governor  Davis'  office,  if  I  remember 
correctly — perhaps  he  called  me  up  there,  or  I  may  have  happened 
to  be  up  there  on  some  other  business,  but  it  is  my  recollection 
that  he  called  me  up  there,  and  he  wanted  to  know  if  I  would 
join  him  in  the  purchase  of  the  Altheimer  farm  if  he  would 
promise  to  drain  the  place — by  his  obligating  to  drain  the  place — 
obligating  himself  to  drain  the  place  and  to  supply  it  with  water, 
and  I  told  him  that  I  had  regarded  the  Altheimer  place  as  no  place 
for  a  convict  farm,  and  I  had  the  same  objections  to  it  as  I  had 
had  all  the  time.  As  soon  as  I  told  the  Governor  that  he  became 
angry  and  said  one  or  two  very  hard  things,  and  said  he  would 
convene  the  legislature  for  the  purpose  of  buying  a  farm  and 
that  the  responsibility  of  it  would  rest  upon  me.  Well,  he  was 
so  angry  and  said  so  many  very  hard  things  to  me  that  I  just  got  up 


—  374  — 

and  walked  out  of  his  office,  and  I  told  him  he  would  have  fo 
call  the  legislature  then;  that  I  could  not  afford  to  vote  against 
my  judgment  for  that  place;  that  I  did  not  think  it  was  suitable 
for  a  convict  farm. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Did  any  other  member  of  the  board 
vote  to  purchase  that  place  at  that  price,  Mr.  Monroe? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   one  besides  yourself. 

Q.     Who  was   it? 

A.     Mr.   Crockett. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you — you  said  that  I  said  that  I  asked 
you  if  I  would  agree  to  drain  the  place — now,  to  refresh 
your  memory,  don't  you  know  that  your  objections  to  that  place 
was  because  it  was  flat  and  no  drainage  there — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And   that  the  water  was  bad? 

A.  I  said  there  was  no  water  there,  'or  understood  there  was 
no  water  there  except  surface  water. 

Q.  Now,  to  refresh  your  memory,  let  me  ask  you  if  this  is 
not  the  matter  I  spoke  to  you  about — that  if  Mr.  Altheimer  could 
convince  you  that  the  place  could  be  drained  and  would  drain  it 
and  would  furnish  it  with  water,  if  you  would  vote  for  that  place? 

A.  No,  sir;  Colonel  Altheimer's  name  wasn't  mentioned. 
You  asked  me  if  you  would  agree  to  drain  that  place  or  assume 
the  responsibility  of  draining  it,  would  I  vote  for  it. 

Q.     I  wasn't  going  to  have  it  drained  individually? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  you  talked  like  it;  you  asked  me  if  you  would 
obligate  yourself  to  drain  it,  if  I  would  vote  for  it;  I  didn't  know 
who  else  you  meant. 

Q.  Didn't  you  understand  that  I  wouldn't  have  it  done,  but 
that  if  Mr.  Altheimer  would  have  it  done — Mr.  Altheimer  would 
do  it? 

A.     Mr.   Altheimer's   name   wasn't   mentioned. 

Q.     I  was  making  a  statement  as  though  I  owned  the  farm? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

FRANK  HILL,  on  cath,  being  by  the  Chairman  first  duly 
sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Did  you  hold  any  State  office  up  to 
last  October  in  this  State? 

A.  I  was  Commissioner  of  Mines,  Manufactures  and  Agri- 
culture. 


—  375  — 

Q.  Do  you  remember  a  time  when  several  propositions  were 
first  made  to  sell  the  Penitentiary  Board  a  farm  for  a  convict 
farm? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  in  what  year  the  first  propositions  were 
made  to  the  board  after  it  was  organized  with  yourself,  Governor 
Davis,  Colonel  Monroe  and  Mr.  Crockett  and  myself  as  members — 
in  what  year  the  first  propositions  were  made? 

A.  I  can't  be  positive  about  the  year,  but  it  was  made  very 
soon  after  the  organization  of  the  board  with  that  membership. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  particular  ones  who  made  prop- 
ositions to  sell  to  the  board — do  you  remember  Beakley  and 
Altheimer  and  any  others? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  Redleaf,  and  the  Taylor  Brothers  I  think 
had  a  proposition  in,  and  I  think  there  were  some  others;  I  can't 
recollect  just  who  at  present. 

Q.  Well,  after  we  had  inspected  the  farms,  was  the  con- 
sideration of  all  of  them  limited  to  any  two  in  particular  or  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  on  motion  the  consideration  of  the  farms  was 
limited  to  the  Beakley  and  the  Altheimer  farms. 

Q.     Who  made  that  motion? 

A.     Governor  Davis  made  the  motion. 

Q.  Well,  at  the  next  meeting  of  the  board  after  that  date, 
was  there  not  a  lot  of  witnesses  brought  up  from  about  England? 

A.     I  think  it  was  at  the  next  meeting. 

Q.     Who   called   them   and   examined   them  before   the   board? 

A.  They  were  examined  probably  by  Governor  Davis.  I  pre- 
sume so;  he  did  the  questioning. 

Q.     Do  you  know  who  solicited   their  presence  there? 

A.  My  understanding  was  that  Governor  Davis  solicited  their 
presence  there. 

Q.  On  what — about  what  particular  farm  was  their  testimony 
directed  to? 

A.     The  Beakley  farm. 

Q.     To  show  it  up  how? 

A.  To  show  that  it  was  unfit  for  a  convict  farm;  showing 
that  it  was  low  and  wet  and  generally  unsuited  for  a  convict  farm. 

Q.  Well,  then,  after  that  evidence  was  heard,  did  the  board 
adjourn.  After  this  evidence  was  brought  in  and  heard  by  tie 
board,  and  after  the  board  had  voted  not  to  consider  any  other 


propositions  for  the  sale  of  other  farms,  for  it  to  adjourn  for  a 
month? 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  on  motion — it  may  have  been  oy 
consent — the  matter  was  postponed  for  thirty  days;  I  think  it  was 
on  motion. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  recollect  the  next  meeting  somewhere  trom 
thirty-one  to  forty  days  after  the  adjournment  when  a  proposition 
was  made  to  the  board  to  accept  the  Altheimer  offer  or  proposition? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Who  made  that  motion? 

A.     Governor  Davis. 

Q.     What  was  Altheimer's  price;    do  you  know? 

A.     The  price  was  $87,500. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  what,  if  anything,  Governor  Davis  said 
he  had  done  with  Altheimer  bringing  the  price  down  to  that  sum,  if 
you  do  tell  it — bringing  the  price  down  to  that  sum? 

A.  My  recollection  is  and  from  the  remarks  of  Governor 
Davis  in  this  connection,  that  the  price  made  by  Mr.  Altheimer 
was  something  a  little  over  $90,000.  I  am  not  certain  of  the  figures, 
it  was  perhaps  $92,t)00;  and  that  he  had  insisted  at  it  being  put 
at  a  lower  figure;  and  said  that  he  had  hammered  him  down  to 
the  lowest  figure  he  could  get  and  that  was  as  T  remember  $87,500. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  if  his  saying,  prior  to  making  the  motion 
to  accept  the  Altheimer  proposition,  that  he  would  try  and  see 
if  he  could  beat  him  down  any  further,  and  called  him  and  talked 
with  him  about  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Tell  the  committee  just  what  he  said,  please,  about  that? 

A.  He  suggested — I  can't  remember  the  exact  language — but 
suggested  that  he  would  make  an  effort  to  have  Mr.  Altheimer 
take  less  than  $87,500 — less  than  that  proposition. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  he  called  Mr.  Altheimer  in  or  not 
at  the  time? 

A.     Well,  Mr.  Altheimer  came  in  the  room  at  that  time. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  what  questions  he  was  asked  and  what 
Altheimer  responded? 

A.  I  think  the  Governor  asked  the  questions — but  at  all  events 
the  question  was  whether  Mr.  Altheimer  would  take  less  than  the 
figures  contained  in  the  proposition. 

Q.     What  figures? 

A.     $87,500. 


—  377  — 

Q.     Well,  proceed? 

A.     And  his  reply  was  that  he  could  not  accept  any  less. 

Q.     Why  did  he  say  that  he  could  not,  if  you  remember? 

A.  I  don't  remember;  he  made  some  excuse  indicating  that 
he  could  not,  but  1  don't  just  remember  what  it  -was. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  until  the  Governor  made  the  motion 
to  accept  the  Altheimer  proposition? 

A.  As  I  recall  it  was  almost  immediately  after  Mr.  Altheimer 
went  out  of  the  office,  or  very  soon  after. 

Q.     Was  the  motion  voted  down  or  not? 

A.     It    was    voted    down. 

Q.  Was  the  question  of  purchasing  that  farm  ever  brought 
before  the  board  in  any  board  meeting  after  that  time? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  told  by  Governor  Davis,  Mr.  Altheimer  or 
anyone  else,  until  the  meeting  of  this  General  Assembly,  "that 
Altheimer  had  offered  the  Governor  to  sell  that  place  to  the  board 
for  $75,000,  or  who  told  you  that  he  would  take  $75,000  for  it? 

A.     Not  until  after  the  legislature  convened. 

Q.     What  legislature? 

A.     This  legislature. 

Q.  Now  sort  of  put  your  memory  to  work  and  see  if  you 
can  give  us  something  approximate  of  the  time  when  that  motion 
to  purchase  the  Altheimer  farm  was  voted  down — that  is  to  accept 
Altheimer's  proposition? 

A.  It  was  at  the  meeting — I  can't  remember  the  date-^but 
the  meeting  at  which  Mr.  Altheimer  was  present  and  was  asked  if 
he  could  take  less  than  the  $87,500 — the  proposition  price  of 
$87,500. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  'whether  it  was  in  the  following  winter, 
1901,  can  you  approximate,  or  do  you  know  when  it  was  with  refer- 
ence to  Mr.  Hogins  qualifying  as  Superintendent — was  it  after  Mr. 
Hogins  qualified  as  Superintendent  of  the  Penitentiary? 

A.     I  can't  say  about  that,  but  it  must  have  been  near  that. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Mr.  Hill,  what  time  did  you  go  out  of 
office? 

A.     At  the  end  of  October,  1902. 

Q.  You  stated  a  while  ago  that  there  was  never  any  other 
proposition  made  on  the  Altheimer  place  except  that  of  $87,500? 

A.     In  the  board,  I  said. 


-378  — 

Q.  I  mean  before  the  board;  I  mean  presented  to  the  board, 
that  was  a  formal  written  proposition  to  sell  for  $87,500,  now  you 
don't  know  what  there  might  have  been  after  you  went  out  of 
office? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  are  not  certain  as  to  any  other  proposition, 
or  whether  there  was  any  other  proposition  made  to  the  board 
or  not? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  am  only  speaking  about  the  time  when  I  was 
a  member  of  the  board. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  that  proposition  came  before  the  board; 
do  you  know  how  Altheimer's  proposition  for  the  sale  of  that 
farm  was  brought  in  before  the  board? 

A.     It  came  in  I  presume  in  the  same  way  the  others  did — 
it  was  presented  to  the  Secretary. 
%Q.     In    writing? 

A.     I  think  so. 

Q.     Not  stated  orally? 

A.     In  writing  is  my  understanding. 

Q.     Do  you  know  who  presented  it  to  the  Secretary? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  don't  know  that  Governor  Davis  had  presented  it? 

A.  No,  sir.  All  I  know  is  what  the  Governor  stated  there  in 
the  board  meeting. 

Q.  Was  this  other  farm  purchased  before  you  went  out  of 
office,  or  after? 

A.     After. 

Q.  Well,  then  you  don't  know  whether  any  proposition  ever 
came  in  there  from  Altheimer  for  the  sale  of  his  farm  after  you 
went  out  of  office  or  not,  or  before  the  purchase  of  this  Cummins 
place  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

LOUIS  ALTHEIMER,  being  recalled,  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Altheimer,  to  whom  did  you 
rent  your  farm,  known  as  the  Hay  ward  place,  last  year? 

A.     Last  year? 

Q.     Yes,  sir? 

A.  Three  years  ago  I  rented  it  to  Willie  and  Willie — Willie 
Brothers,  and  that  was  during  the  first  year  and  then  his  cousin 
bought  one  of  the  brothers  out — Mr.  Walker  bought  one  of  the  Wil- 


—  379  — 

lies  out  and  then  Walker  and  Willie  had  it  then  the  succeeding 
year. 

Q.     What  Walker  and  what  Willie? 

A.     I  don't  know  Walker's  first  name. 

Q.     What  was  Willie's   first  name? 

A.  Mr.  Willie's  first  name  was  John,  but  I  don't  know  Mr. 
Walker's  name. 

Q.  To  whom  did  you  rent  it  last  year;  that  was  the  ques- 
tion I  asked  you? 

A.  Last  year?  I  worked  it  in  partnership  with  Mr.  Lee  Wil- 
lie; my  son  Maurice  and  Mr.  Lee  Willie  and  myself  were  in  a 
firm  called  Altheimer  &  Willie,  and  we  are  doing  the  same  thing 
this  year. 

Q.  Now,  I  understood  you  to  state  last  night  that  that  prop- 
erty rented  last  year  for  $9,000;  now  did  you  so  state  or  not? 

A.  I  stated  if  we  could  have  gathered  all  our  crops  we  would 
have,  if  we  could  have  gotten  the  proceeds  of  all  the  cotton — that 
that  was  left  in  the  field — I  said  if  we  could  have  gathered  all 
our  crop. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Altheimer,  just  please  answer  the  question;  did 
you  or  not  state  last  night  that  you  rented  that  place  last  year 
for  $9,000.  Got  $9,000  for  rents  out  of  it? 

A.     I   don't  know. 

Q.     You  did  not  rent  it  last  year? 

A.     I  did  not  say  that. 

Q.     Well,  did  you  or  not  rent  it  last  year? 

A.     I   did   not. 

Q.  You  ran  it  in  partnership  with  Mr.  Willie,  and  kept  the 
store  there? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  my  son,  Maurice,  Mr.  Willie  and  myself  ran  it 
last  year  under  the  name  and  style  of  Altheimer  &  Willie. 

Q.     You  ran  the  store  and  farmed  too,  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,   sir;    we  did. 

Q.    What  is  that  place  assessed  at — taxes? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.  Did  you  say  last  night  that  you  did  not  offer  to  sell  that 
place  to  Mr.  Willie? 

A.     I   said  that. 

Q.  Well,  you  did  offer  to  sell  him  a  part  of  the  place  that  was 
in  cultivation,  didn't  you? 

A.     I  never  did. 


—  380  -^ 

Q.     Did  you  not  offer  to  sell  him  any  of  it? 

A.     I  never  did. 

Q.     Neither  one   of  the  Willies? 

A.     Never  did. 

Q.  Did  you  or  not  tell  Mr.  Willie  that  you  would  sell  him  that 
place  for  $30,000,  provided  that  if  you  succeeded  in  selling  it 
to  the  State  at  any  time  he  was  to  deed  it  back  to  you  for  a 
bonus  of  $5,000,  and  thef  interest  on  his  money? 

A.     I    did    not. 

Q.     Did  your  son  make  that  offer? 

A.     What  my  son  did  I  don't  know. 

Q.     If  he  did  make  it,  did  he  have  your  authority? 

A.     He   consulted  with   me  about  it. 

Q.  Yes,  sir,  but  that  is  not  answering  my  question;  I  asked 
you  if  he  did  do  it  did  he  have  the  authority  to  miake  the  offer? 

A.     Not  with  my  consent. 

Q.     Well,  is  the  title  in  him  or  in  you? 

A.     Well,   it  is   in  me   and  him. 

Q.     Jointly? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  nothing  then  of  his  having  made  an  offer  to 
Willie  to  sell  that  part  of  the  farm  that  was  in  cultivation,  or  two 
thousand  acres  or  more  of  it  for  $30,000? 

A.  My  son  spoke  to  me — said  that  he  had  a  talk  with  one 
of  the  Mr.  Willies,  or  several  talks  with  Mr.  Willie;  that  is  what 
my  son  told  me. 

Q.  I  asked  you  if  you  know  that  that  was  a  fact,  or  if  you 
had  any  knowledge  about  whether  he  ever  offered,  or  if  there  was 
ever  an  offer  made  to  Mr.  Willie  to  sell  him  about  two  thousand 
acres  of  that  farm  that  was  in  cultivation,  at  $30,000? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  it  except  what  my  son  told 
me. 

Q.  The  farm  you  say  that  Governor  Davis  expressed  himself 
as  pleased  with,  that  was  after  you  had  gone  over  it — • 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  stated  that  he  was  very  much  pleased — or 
*ery  much  impressed  with  the  property,  its  location,  soil,  etc. 

Q.     About  what   time   in   the   day   was   it  that  he   said  that? 

A.  That  was  a  short  time  before  we  took  the  late  afternoon 
train  for  Little  Rock. 

Q.     About  what  time  was  that? 

A.     Between   5    and    6   o'clock   in  the   evening. 


_  381  — 

Q.  What  time  did  the  party,  including  Governor  Davis,  get 
down  there  that  day? 

A.  Got  to  Sherrill,  I  would  say,  a  little  after  9  o'clock — a 
few  minutes  after  9  o'clock. 

Q.     You    went   from   there   with   horses? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You   went  from  there  where? 

A.  We  went  from  there  to  the  upper  part  of  Hayward,  what 
is  named  Porto  Rico. 

Q.     And  there  you  took   dinner? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  gave  them  a  fine  spread. 

Q.     Well,  how  long  were  you  at  that  spread? 

A.    Well,  I  presume  for  about  three-quarters  of  an  hour. 

Q.  Now  how  far  is  the  place  Porto  Rico  from  the  station, 
Hayward  ? 

A.  It  is  from  Porto  Rico  to  Hayward  two  and  three-quarter 
miles. 

Q.     After  you  got  dinner  you  went  where? 

A.  Went  from  Porto  Rico  to  Hayward;  it  is  about  a  mile 
up  to  the  station;  it  is  two  and  three-qujarter  miles  up  to  Hay- 
ward  station — 

Q.     And  you  staid  at  the  house  there  at  Porto  Rico  how  long? 

A.     About  three-quarters  of  an  hour,   Colonel. 

Q.     Where   did  you  go  from  there — to  the  station? 

A.  No,  we  all  got  our  horses — we  had  some  good  horses — 
and  we  rode  over  the  Porto  Rico  farm  and  over  Bell  farm,  and 
we  rode  through  a  deadening  for  about  a  mile  and  then  we  came 
to  the  northeast  corner  of  the  Hayward  field  and  rode  out  into 
the  light  and  pulled  our  horses  up  and  looked  over  the  plantation 
—that  part  of  it— and  we  were  in  the  saddle  several  hours,  and  then 
we  came  down  to  Hayward  proper  to  Mr.  WTalker's,  where  we 
took  a  lunch  or  had  a  dinner,  or  whatever  you  might  call  it,  at 
his  house.  Mr.  Walker  took  part  of  the  committee  to  his  house 
and  they  were  entertained  royally  again. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  when  you  got  to  Hayward  proper?  What 
time  of  the  day  was  it  then? 

A.     I  think  about  3   o'clock. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go  from  Hayward? 

A.  From  Hayward,  we  waited  there  for  the  afternoon  train, 
which  we  took  and  came  to  Little  Rock  at  once. 


—  382  — 

Q.  You  say  that  the  Governor  expressed  himself  as  well 
pleased  with  that  place;  where  was  that? 

A.     It  was  out  there  at  the  upper  end  of  the  platform. 

Q.     At  Hay  ward? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  say  there  is  6,040  acres  of  land  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  time  was  it  when  they  were  down  there? 

A.  I  don't  remember  exactly  the  time,  but  cotton  was  about 
shoulder  high. 

Q.     Do  you  know  that  it  was  in  the  summer  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    it  was  in  the  summer  time. 

Q.  Mr.  Altheimer,  do  you  know  a  land  agency  by  the  name 
of  W.  M.  Price  &  Co.,  of  Stuttgart? 

A.     I  do. 

Q.  Did  you  not  have  that  place  in  their  hands  for  sale  at 
$30,000? 

A.     I  did  not. 

Q.  Was  it  not  in  their  hands  for  sale — placed  in  their  hands 
for  sale  either  at  $30,000  or  $35,000? 

A.  About  a  year  or  two  prior  to  that  time  Mr.  Price — the 
senior  member  of  that  firm — brought  a  party  down  there  from 
Kansas  City  to  buy  Hayward,  and  we  priced  that  part  of  Hay- 
ward,  not  being  all  of  it,  or  rather  he  wanted  us  to  take  Kansas 
City  property  for  it,  and  I  thought  I  would  rather  keep  Hayward 
than  take  Kansas  City  property  worth  $60,000  for  it.  I  refused 
to  trade  with  him. 

Q.     That  does  not  answer  my  question,  Mr.  Altheimer? 

A.    Well,  put  it  again. 

Q.  I  asked  you  if  that  property  that  you  offered  to  the  State, 
the  Hayward  farm,  was  not  placed  in  the  hands  of  Price  &  Son, 
of  Stuttgart,  for  sale  at  either  $30,000  or  $35,000? 

A.  I  don't  remember  the  price,  but  it  was  ,not  all  of  the 
6,040  acre  tract. 

Q.     You  put  in  their  hands  only  a  part  of  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  much? 

A.     I    don't    remember    how    much. 

Q.  Whatever  property  you  did  put  in  Price's  hands  is  that 
property  which  lies  right  along  the  railroad? 

A.     It  did. 


—  383  — 

Q.  How  much  of  that  place  lies  on  the  side  of  the  railroad, 
right  side  as  you  go  down  from  here  to  Pine  Bluff,  or  Altheimer 
town;  how  much  of  it? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

Q.     Can't  you   give   us   some  idea? 

A.     I  cannot. 

Q.  Does  the  railroad  run  through  the  center  of  the  place  or 
not? 

A.  It  splits  the  tract  open,  but  the  principal  part  of  the 
woodland  and  the  open  land  is  on  the  left-hand  side  of  the  road 
going  down  towards  Altheimer. 

Q.     Who   owns  that  road? 

A.     The   Cotton  Belt. 

Q.     That  is  the  St.  Louis  Southwestern  Company? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  own  the  railroad;  it  just  goes  through  your 
farm? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  don't.  I  am  a  sort  of  a  daddy  of  that  road 
though;  I  kind  of  called  it  into  life. 

Well,  Mr.  Altheimer,  we  have  got  along  very  pleasantly 
to-night— 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Altheimer,  I  don't  care  to  ask 
you  any  particular  question,  but  I  just  want  to  ask  you  this — 
did  you  not  last  night  state  that  you  had  told  me  that  you  would 
sell  that  farm  to  the  State  or  to  the  board  for  $75,000? 

A.  I  didn't  tell  you  that — I  can't  say  that  that  is  what  I  stated 
last  night,  though  I  remember  I  did  tell  you  (Here  the  witness 
turns  and  speaks  to  Colonel  Murphy)  Colonel  Murphy,  if  you  ever 
wanted  Hay  ward  you  knew  where  to  find  it. 

JOHN  WILLIE,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  .the  Chair- 
man, deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     Where   do  you  reside,  Mr.  Willie? 

A.  I  am  living  on  the  Greenback  plantation.  My  post  office 
is  Swan  Lake. 

Q.'  Did  you  ever  live  on  the  Altheimer  place  down  here  in 
Jefferson  County,  known  as  the  Hay  ward  place? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Altheimer  very  shortly  before  or  about  the  time 
he  was  making  an  effort  to  sell  that  place  to  the  State  or  to 
the  Penitentiary  Board  for  a  convict  farm,  offer  you  the  place  or 
any  part  of  it  at  any  price? 


A.  Why  his  son,  Mr.  Maurice  Altheimer,  offered  me  the  place 
in  December  for  a  price.  He  was  down  there  sometime  in  the 
summer — 

Q.     Just  state  to  the  committee  what  the  offer  was? 

A.  Why  he  came  out  there  to  the  place  and  wanted  to  sell 
it  to  me,  that  was  that  portion  of  the  place  that  we  had  leased, 
that  was  known  as  the  Hayward  property.  His  contract  covered 
2,600  acres;  that  was  the  Hayward  property  as  we  knew  it.  And 
known  then  as  I  know  it  now;  but  I  offered  them  first  $25,000 
for  the  place,  and  they  wanted  $35,000,  and  he  asked  me  the 
question  if  I  would  not  give  as  much  as  $30,000  for  the  prop- 
erty, and  I  told  him  I  would  not,  but  that  I  would  raise  my  offer 
up  to  $27,500 — give  him  $5,000  cash  and  the  balance  in  six  equal 
payments  with  6  per  cent  interest,  and  that  the  land  was  to 
measure  out  2,600  acres  or  more  clear  of  the  railroad  right  of  way 
and  including  a  little  three-corner  piece  of  property  down  the  rail- 
road that  he  had  bought  from  the  Holmes  tract,  and  they  did  not 
accept  it. 

Q.     Well,  new  did  he  or  not  go  below  the  $35.000? 

A.  Well,  he  did  not  positively  ask  me — he  asked  me  if  I  would 
accept  it  at  that. 

Q.     Give  the  conversation. 

A.  If  I  would  give  $30,000,  and  he  said,  I  think  I  can  get 
my  father  to  agree  to  take  that  if  you  will  say  you  will  give 
$30,000,  and  I  told  I  wouldn't  give  $30,000,  but  that  I  would  give 
$27,500;  and  so  it  stood  open  until  the  next  morning  about  10:40 
o'clock  when  the  train  gets  into  Pine  Bluff;  he  said  he  wanted  to 
consider  it,  and  he  said  he  would  let  me  know  the  next  morn- 
ing whether  they  would  accept  it  or  not. 

Q.  Well,  now  in  connection  with  that  in  case  you  would  give 
$30,000  for  the  place,  was  there  anything  said  about  a  payment  or 
a  re-deeding  of  the  property  in  the  event  that  they  succeeded 
in  selling  the  place  to  the  State? 

A.  They  wanted  me  to  agree  to  let  them  have  the  property 
back  for  a  price  in  the  event  that  they  might — for  a  price  that 
we  might  agree  upon.  They  wanted  me  to  agree  to  Jet  them  have 
the  place  back  at  any  time  in  the  next  two  years  in  case  they  made 
a  sale  to  the  State,  and  I  told  them  I  could  not  entertain  that  at 
all;  that  if  I  bought  the  property  that  I  wanted  it  for  myself,  and 
he  said  he  would  want  that  property  back  if  in  case  he  sold  the 


—  385  — 

whole  thing  to  the  State,  and  I  told  him  I  would  have  to  let  him 
know   the   next   morning. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  details  of  the  arrange- 
ments of  Mr.  Altheimer,  or  Messrs.  Altheimers,  had  on  hand  to 
sell  their  property  to  the  State;  do  you  know  whether  they  had 
agencies  or  how  they  expected  to  do  it — through  whom? 

A.  Well,  I  can't  say  as  to  whom,  but  before  they  made  me 
this  offer — I  can  only  state  the  conversation — I  really  can't  say 
what  conversation  took  place  between  Altheimer  and  his  son — but 
this  conversation  was  that  in  case  he  got  his  father  to  agree  to 
take  $27,500  that  I  would  agree  to  let  them  have  the  property 
back  at  any  time  before  the  expiration  of  two  years — they  would 
pay  me  back  the  purchase  money  of  course  and  what  I  had 
expended  for  improvements,  with  10  per  cent  interest,  and  $5,000 
in  addition. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  know  now — I  want  to  get  right  at  the  matter 
— did  you  know  from  them  who  they  depended  on  to  sell  that 
farm — anybody  in  connection  with  the  board  or  that  had  any 
influence  with  them,  or  to  enable  them  to  make  the  sale;  now 
if  you  know,  just  tell  it  if  you  know,  Mr.  Willie? 

A.  Well,  this  is  the  only  thing  I  know:  I  asked  him  why 
he  wanted  me  to  make  such  a  proposition  as  that,  and  he  says, 
why  in  case  we — let  me  see  how  that  was — 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)   Who  was  that  talking? 

A.     Mr.   Maurice  Altheimer   and   myself. 

Q.    Was  I  present? 

A.     No,   sir.     Is   this   Governor  Davis? 

Q.     Yes,  sir. 

A.  No,  sir.  I  never  met  you  in  my  life  before.  But  his 
answer  to  me  about  the  question  I  asked  him,  he  says  that  if  we — 
if  Governor  Davis — he  told  me  that  if  he  is  elected  and  another 
party  is  elected  favorable  to  the  place  why  we  can  sell  the  place, 
was  the  words  that  he  used. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy,  continuing)  Were  you  present  when 
Governor  Davis  and  other  members  of  the  board,  in  company 
with  Mr.  Altheimer  or  the  Messrs.  Altheimers.  were  down  there 
for  the  purpose  of  looking  over  that  place? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  was  not.  I  was  in  Hot  Springs  at  the  time 
Mr.  Walker  was  there. 

.  Q.     What   is   Mr.  Walker's   initials? 

A.     F.  H.  Walker. 

Testimony— 13. 


—  386  — 

Q.     So  you  did  not  hear  any  conversation  that  occurred  there? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  wasn't  there  at  all.  The  gentlemen  were  down 
there  in  my  absence,  and  part  of  them  taken  dinner  there  at  Mr. 
Walker's  and  suppose  some  of  the  parties  taken  dinner  over  at  my 
house. 

Q.  Now  you  ceased  to  occupy  and  reside  and  occupy  the 
Altheimer  place  when? 

A.  Why  I  left  there  last  December  20,  I  think  it  was,  a  year 
ago — it  was  in  1901,  December.  I  left  there,  but  the  possession 
of  the  place  was  not  delivered  until  January  1,  1302. 

Q.     Did  you  ever  live  on  the  Cummins  place  that  we  bought? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  worked  the  Cummins  place,  my  brother  and  I, 
for  five  years. 

Q.  What  is  the  comparative  worths  between  those  two  places 
per  acre? 

(Chairman  rules  that  question  is  irrelevant.) 

Q.  Is  that  Altheimer  place  a  dry  place  or  is  it  a  low  wet 
place  ? 

A.     Weil,  the  major  part  of  the  place   is   wet. 

Q.  Does  the  surface  water  or  not  stand  on  it  when  the  rainy 
season  conies? 

A,.     Yes.  sir;    stands  on  it. 

Q.  Does  it  not  stand  in  between  the  cotton  rows  even  after 
cotton  is  planted  when  rains  come? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  gather  out  the  crops  that  are  raised  on  it  in  the 
fall  or  winter  after  the  rainy  season  sets  in  without  getting  in 
the  water? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  very  well  any  time  of  the  year  when  there 
is  very  much  rain;  it  is  very  wet.  There  is  a  portion  of  -the 
place  though  that  is  sandy  and  dry. 

Q.     How  much  of  it  is  there  in  that  fix? 

A.  Why  the  land  there  is  about — we  estimated  about  700 
acres  of  the  1,600  acres,  was  our  estimate  of  it  when  1  was  on  the 
place. 

Q.     Which  was   dry? 

A.     Yes.   sir;    comparatively  dry. 

Q.  How  is  that  in  the  woods — in  the  timber  is  that  low  and 
wet  or  is  it  high  and  dry? 

A.  The  majority  of  it  is  very  low — very  wet;  hickory  flats. 
There  is  some,  however,  in  ridges,  but  the  larger  part,  the  major 


—  387  — 

part  of  it  is  wet;  that  is  in  the  woods.  That  was  included  in 
this  2,600  acres  that  we  had  under  contract,  you  understand. 

Q.  Well,  how  about  the  other,  that  part  outside  of  the  2,600 
acres? 

A.  Well,  as  well  as  I  know  about  the  other,  the  majority  of 
it  is  wet,  but  I  don't  know  that  very  well. 

Q.  That  is  the  best  part  of  the  farm,  the  most  productive  and 
fertile — the  most  valuable,  comparatively,  as  to  that  that  was 
embraced  in  the  other  tract? 

A.  I  considered  the  part  they  offered  to  me  better  than  the 
other  as  well  as  I  know  of  the  other  property. 

CHARLES  WATKINS,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     You  reside  where,  Mr.  Watkins? 

A.  My  home  at  present  is  Little  Rock  mostly;  but  my  home  is 
at  Mt.  Ida,  Ark, 

Q.     Do  you  know  Governor  Davis? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  while  he  was  Attorney  General,  of  work- 
ing in  his  office? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  worked  there  from  November,  1899,  to  Jan- 
uary, 1901. 

Q.  You  say  you  were  in  Governor  Davis'  office  while  he  was 
Attorney  General  in  November — of  what  year? 

A.     1899,   I   think. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  remain  there? 

A.     Well,  I  was  there  most  of  the  time  until  January,  1901. 

Q.     In  what  capacity? 

A.     Well,  I  was  stenographer  there  in  the  office. 

Q.    Did  you  draw  your  money  monthly  while  you  were  there? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  every  month;  I  did  not  have  any  regular  time 
to  draw  it  at  all;  whenever  I  would  need  some  money  I  would  go 
draw  it.  if  it  was  coming  to  me. 

Q.    Who  made  out-  the  vouchers  to  you? 

A.     Mr.   Jacobson. 

Q.     Who  was  Mr.  Jacobson? 

A.  He  was  the  Assistant  Attorney  General  at  that  time;  I 
think  they  were  signed  by  the  Governor  through  Mr.  Jacobson. 

Q.     All  of  them? 

A.  I  think  so;  most  of  them,  I  don't  remember  just  whether 
all  of  them  were  or  not. 


—  388  — 

Q.     Did  Governor  Davis  sign  any  of  them? 

A.     I  don't  remember,  it  has  been  so  long  ago. 

Q.  I  show  you  a  voucher  for  services  in  that  office  as  stenog- 
rapher, it  seems  to  have  been  paid  the  23d  of  November,  1899, 
for  $20;  did  you  get  that  voucher? 

A.  I  don't  remember;  I  suppose  I  did  though.  I  went  to  work 
there. 

Q.     And  get  a  warrant  on  the  Treasurer? 

A.     If  I  got  the  voucher  I  got  the  other. 

Q.     Do  you  remember  who  signed  it? 

A.     Who  signed  the  voucher? 

Q.     The  warrant;   did  the  Auditor  sign  it? 

A.     I  presume  so,  or  his   deputy. 

Q.  If  I  mistake  not,  on  December  21,  1899,  you  obtained 
another  voucher  on  the  Auditor  for  $25;  is  that  correct? 

A.  Why,  I  don't  know  just  exactly  the  date;  as  I  stated  when- 
ever 1  needed  the  money  and  it  was  due  me,  I  would  go  ask  for 
it  and  get  it. 

Q.     You  would   see   the  vouchers,   would   you  not? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  I  would  or  not  see  them  so  as  to 
know  them  again. 

Q.  I  see  you  obtained  another  voucher  on  the  27th  of  Jan- 
uary, 1.900,  for  $40— 

Governor  Davis  says:  I  will  admit  that  all  of  those  vouchers 
were  all  drawn  and  that  he  got  the  money  on  the  vouchers.  I 
will  admit  that  he  got  a  voucher  for  every  cent  that  they  say 
he  got,  and  that  he  got  the  money  on  it,  and  I  think  they  show 
about  right  as  to  the  amount.  I  admit  that  Mr.  Watkins  was  the 
stenographer  in  my  office  at  the  time  and  that  he  got  the  vouchers 
claimed  by  the  Attorney  General,  and  he  got  the  money  oil  them. 

Q.     (By )       Will  it  be  admitted  that  these  payments 

were  made  to  him  as  services   as   stenographer — 

A.     (By  Governor  Davis)     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  you  signed  the  vouchers  for  the  warrants  for 
the  services  as  stenographer — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy,  continuing)  What  was  the  character 
of  work  you  did  in  that  office  as  stenographer? 

•    A.     (By  Mr.   Walkins,  continuing)     Most  of  my  work  was   in 
brief  work — writing  briefs. 


—  389  — 

Governor  Davis — And  I  further  admit  that  the  warrants  were 
paid  out  of  the  contingent  fund  of  the  Attorney  General. 

Q.     Now   you   say   that   most   of  this   work   was   brief   work? 

A.     Yes,,  sir. 

Q.     As  stenographer? 

A.     Yes,  air. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  particular  brief  you  worked  on  as 
stenographer? 

A.  Why  I  know  I  worked  writing  on  nearly  every  brief  that 
was  written  there  during  the  time  that  I  was  there. 

Q.     Who   dictated  them? 

A.     Generally  Mr.  Jacobson. 

Q.     Who  was   Mr.  Jacobson? 

A.  He  was  Assistant  Attorney  General  at  the  time.  He 
assisted  Governor  Davis  in  the  office  then. 

Q.     Was  he  the  clerk  in  the  office? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know,  the  statute  specifies  it  as  clerk  or 
assistant  to  the  Attorney  General. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  nearly  all  of  your  work  was  devoted 
to  writing  and  getting  out  campaign  literature  for  the  Governor? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     When   he   was   Attorney   General? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     When  did  he  commence  his  campaign  for  Governor? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

Q.     Was  it  in  the  summer  of  1899? 

A.     I  don't  remember  just  when  it  was  it  has  been  so  long  ago. 

Q.  Now  can  you  tell  us  the  number  of  briefs  in  which  you 
performed  stenographic  work? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  never  kept  any  exact  account  of  them  at  all. 

Q.  Would  you  leave  the  office  as  soon  as  you  got  through  with 
a  brief — the  Attorney  General's  office,  as  soon  as  you  got  through 
writing  a  brief? 

A.     No,   sir;    worked  there  regular  all  the  time. 

Q.  What  work  were  you  at  when  you  were  not  working  on 
briefs? 

A.  I  had  a  great  many  letters — quite  a  heavy  correspondence 
to  carry  on,  and  I  answered  them. 

Q.     About   what? 

A.  About  official  duties  in  the  office — a  great  deal  of  work  in 
that  way. 


—  390  — 

Q.  And  about  law  suits  pending  in  the  Supreme  Court? 

A.  Some  of  them;   I  can't  say  just  what  they  were  all  about. 

Q.  Well,  was  this  work  that  you  got  these  vouchers  for  brief 
work? 

A.     I  got  the  vouchers  for  the  work  I  did  there  in  the  office. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  that  work  that  you  did  there  in  the 
office  for  which  you  were  paid  for  in  these  vouchers,  was  brief  work? 

A.     A  great  deal  of  it. 

Q.  Well,  that  is  so  indefinite,  Mr.  Watkins,  was  it  a  half  of  it 
or  a  third  or  a  fourth  or  all  of  it? 

A.     It  was  not  all  brief  work;  part  of  it  was  letters  and  copying. 

Q.  The  briefs  were  all  cases  in  the  Supreme  Court,  were 
they  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  all  of  the  briefs  that  you  worked  on  were  briefs  that 
were  filed  from  between  November,  1899,  and  January,  1901? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  if  these  briefs  were  to  go  in  cases  before  the  Supreme 
Court,  would  not  they  be  printed — these  briefs  that  you  say  you 
did  work  on  as  stenographer? 

A.     I  suppose  so. 

Q.     You  did  not  work  there  as  a  typewriter? 

A.     What   do  you  mean? 

Q.     In  his  office  as  a  typewriter? 

A.     Well,  I  was  the  stenographer  there. 

Q.  Can  you  give  the  committee  any  statement  of  the  num- 
ber of  pages  of  brief  work  that  you  did? 

A.  As  stenographer  while  in  the  office,  no,  sir.  1  have  no 
idea  of  the  number  of  pages;  I  kept  no  account  of  the  briefs  or 
the  number  of  pages.  The  number  of  pages  and  amount  of  work 
in  the  different  briefs  would  vary. 

Q.  How  much  mail  matter  did  you  send  out — campaign  mat- 
ter— literature,  while  you  were  there  in  that  office? 

A.     l  don't  know  how  much,  but  I  did  some  of  it,  of  course. 

Q.  Now  don't  you  know  that  it  is  a  fact  that  you  sent  out 
that  campaign  literature,  and  that  was  what  required  most  of 
your  time  and  assistance? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  think  it  was,  because  they  had  some  young 
ladies  there  who  were  attending  to  that. 

Q.     Who  were   they? 


—  391  — 

A.  He  had  one  of  them  there  a  great  deal  of  the  time,  and 

a  Mrs.  ,  I  don't  remember  her  name — another  lady — she  is 

out  at  the  Insane  Asylum — one  of  them  is  out  there. 

Q.  Well,  I  see  here  that  you  got  a  warrant  of  voucher  and 
a  warrant  on  a  voucher  on  the  16th  day  of  June,  1900 — 

A.  That  was  the  time  about  when  Miss  Grace  Bloom  and  Miss 
Carter  worked  there  in  the  office  as  stenographers — 

Q.  And  at  that  same  time  you  were  getting  pay  for  the  same — 
did  you  get  paid  for  stenographic  work  then,  too? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  I  was  there  at  that  time  or  not.  I 
think  they  were  there  part  of  the  time,  and  I  think  they  wene 
there  in  June. 

Q.     They  were   there  in  June? 

A.  I  don't  remember  whether  they  were  there  in  June  or 
not,  but  I  think  they  were  there.  I  was  there  part  of  the  time, 
but  I  don't  just  recollect  the  dates. 

Q.     What  were  they  doing  there? 

A.     Working. 

Q.     Doing  what — what  sort  of  work? 

A.     They  were  employed  there  in  getting  out  campaign  work. 

Q.     What  sort  of  work? 

A.     Campaign  work. 

Q.  They  were  in  there  while  you  were  there  part  of  the  time 
then? 

A.     VesA  sir. 

Q.     What  were  they  doing,  if  you  know? 

A.  I  can't  say  just  exactly  what  they  did,  because  I  was  busy 
with  my  work  most  of  the  time. 

Q.    What  work  were  you  busy  at  while  they  were  there? 

A.  I  was  getting  up  all  sorts  of  work — and  doing  ail  the  brief 
work  and  writing  letters  pertaining  to  the  office. 

Q.     Were   they   doing  any  brief  work  while  you   were   there? 

A.     No,  sir;  they  didn't  do  any  brief  work. 

Q.     You  say  they  were  not  doing  any  of  the  brief  work? 

A.     No,   sir;    I   was   doing  the   brief   work. 

Q.     Do  you  know  of  any  sort  of  work  that  they  did? 

A.     I   don't  know   definitely. 

Q.     Did  they  send  out  campaign  literature? 

A.     I  presume  they  did  send  out  campaign  literature. 

Q.     Don't  you  know? 

A.     I   do   not. 


—  392  — 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  they  had  great  big  boxes  there  just 
chuck  full  and  was  mailing  it  out  constantly? 

A.     I   don't  think  they   did. 

Q.     You  know  they  had  big  dry  goods  boxes  full  of  it  there? 

A.  I  understood  that  they  were  sending  out  that  campaign 
stuff,  but  I  don't  know  definitely  what  they  did. 

Q.     You  understood  it? 

A.     Yes,,  sir. 

Q.     Well,  you  were  in  the  office  all  the  time — 

A.     Part  of  the  time  I  wasn't  there. 

Q.     You  were  there  in  June? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  I  was  or  not,  but  I  am  inclined  to 
think  I  was.  If  I  drew  a  voucher  for  the  month  of  June  then  I 
was  there  in  June.  This  has  been  three  years  ago  almost,  and  I 
can't  remember  every  day  that  I  was  in  the  city.  It  has  been  so 
long  ago. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Do  you  know  whether  you  were  there 
in  Jun'e,  1901? 

A.  I  don't  know;  I  will  have  to  think  a  while  about  that. 
If  I  can  think  a  minute — 

Q.    Well,  that  is  what  you  are  here  for — to  think. 

(An  objection  being  raised  to  the  question  of  going  into  the 
affairs  of  the  Attorney  General's  office,  the  Chair  upholds  the 
objections,  to  which  ruling  of  the  Chair  General  Murphy  excepts 
and  asks  that  his  exceptions  be  noted  of  record  in  order  that  the 
same  may  be  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  House.) 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Have  you  got  the  vouchers  for  the 
World's  Fair  Fund? 

A.     No,  sir;   1  have  not. 

Q.     Who  has? 

A.     I  presume  the  Auditor  has;  he  is  the  man  who  keeps  them. 

Q.     Have  you  got  the  books? 

Governor  Davis  objects  to  the  foregoing  evidence  in  relation 
to  the  expenditures  on  vouchers  relating  to  the  World's  Fair  Fund, 
and  says:  I  will  admit  that  I  drew  from  my  contingent  fund  for 
four  trips  to  St.  Louis  in  regard  to  the  World's  Fair. 

Q.  (Colonel  Murphy,  continuing)  Mr.  Watkins,  where  are 
tbe  books  relating  to  the  St.  Lrouis  Imposition — 

A.     Up  there  in  my  office. 


—  393  — 

Q.     Can   anybody  see  them? 

A.  They  are  up  there;  I  will  show  them  to  you  If  you  come 
up  there. 

Q.     We  would  like  to  see  the  books? 

A.     I  can't  show  them  to  you  now,  they  are  up  in  the  office. 

Q.     But  we  can  see  them  by  coming  up  there? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  anybody  can  come  up  there  and  see  them;  I  will 
be  there  all  day  tomorrow.  You  can  come  in  there  any  time 
tomorrow  and  see  them. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Was  there  ever  a  voucher  paid  you 
out  of  the  World's  Fair  Fund? 

A.     No,   sir. 

Governor  Davis  here  hands  to  Chairman  Merriman  a  check 
drawn  for  $5  and  paid  on  his  private  telephone  at  his  house,  and 
endorsed  by  Mr.  Dougherty. 

MR.  H.  W.  DOUGHERTY,  being  recalled,  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Dougherty,  I  want  you  to 
identify  those  two  months  that  you  say  were  paid  for  in  that 
way,  where  the  private  telephone  bills  and  long-distance  bills 
were  paid  in  one  voucher — the  private  telephone  bills  of  Governor 
Davis  and  Mr.  Jacobson.  You  were  asked  by  Governor  Davis  to 
examine  the  books. 

A.  Well,  I  will  say  that  I  have  examined  the  books  and  the 
vouchers  numbered  424,  also  599,  958  and  1628,  and  the  amounts 
therein.  Voucher  No.  424  is  for  $22.15. 

Q.     The  long  distance  bill  was  how  much? 

A.  On  February  11,  I  find  credited,  long  distance $18.15 

Davis'  residence 2.00 

Jacobson's  residence 2.00 

Making  a  total  of $22.15 

That  exactly  balances  with  the  voucher. 

Voucher  No.  599  is  drawn  for  $28.15,  and  is  dated  March  5,  1902. 

Long  distance $23.15 

Governor   Davis,   auxiliary 1.00 

Davis'  residence 2.00 

Jacobson's  residence 2.00 


Making  a  total  of $28.15 


—  394  — 

Which  balances  exactly  with  the  amount  of  the  voucher  drawn 
for  that  amount  on  that  same  date.  And  the  amount  credited  on 
the  books  exactly  balance. 

Voucher  No.  958  was  drawn  on  April  10,  and  is  for  $50.65. 

On  April  10,  I  find  credited  on  the  books  $45.65  toll.  $1.90 
Davis;  $1.35  Davis'  residence,  and  $1.75  Jacobson's  residence,  which 
makes  exactly  $50.65,  being  the  amount  for  which  the  warrant  was 
drawn  on  the  same  date. 

Q.     Voucher  was  drawn  on  the  Auditor  for  that  amount? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     On  which  you  obtained  the  money  from  the  Treasurer? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

No.  1628,  dated  June  12,  for  $16.55: 

Toll $11.55 

Office 1.00 

Davis 2.00 

Jacobson   .  2.00 


Making  a  total  of $16.55 

For  which  a  voucher  was  drawn  'on  that  day.  And  I  think  the 
books  show  that  beyond  a  question;  the  voucher  and  the  books 
balance  and  that  the  two  residence  telephones  were  paid  out  of  the 
contingent  fund. 

Q.  Then  it  is  true  that  that  for  those  two  months  these  vouch- 
ers paid  the  long  distance  telephone  messages  and  the  private  tele- 
phone of  the  Governor  and  Jacobson's  telephone — they  were  all 
embraced  in  the  one  voucher? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  from  the  records  I  find  on  the  books — 

Q.  They  exactly  correspond  with  the  several  vouchers  and 
they  balance  exactly? 

A.     Yes.,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  You  say  you  collected  about  nine 
months? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  made  the  rent  of  the  telephone  at  my  residence  $18, 
that  is  what  it  would  be,  wouldn't  it,  nine  months  at  $2  a  month? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  See  if  you  collected  that  check  from  me— is  not  that  your 
signature  on  the  back  of  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  my  signature  on  the  back,  but  that  is  no 
reason  that  I  collected  it. 


—  395  — 

Q.     Were  you  not  the  collector? 

A..     Yes,  sir;  I  was  the  chief  collector  for  the  company— 

Q.  Well,  then,  did  you  not  collect  the  amount  of  that  check — 
collect  that  check? 

A.     I  don't  know  whether  I  did  or  not. 

Q.     Why  don't  you  know. 

A.  If  you  will  allow  me,  I  will  explain  it.  I  told  you  that  my 
official  capacity  with  the  company  was  as  chief  collector,  and  all 
checks  that  come  in  there — all  checks  collected  by  any  one  of  the 
collectors,  are  turned  over  to  me",  and  I  endorse  them,  and  deposit 
them  to  the  credit  of  the  company  in  the  bank. 

Q.     Don't  you  know  that  you  collected  that  check? 

A.  I  say  I  don't  know  whether  I  collected  that  check  or  not. 
I  don't  say  that  I  did  or  did  not. 

Q.    Will  you  say  that  you  did  not  collect  it? 

A.     No,   sir;    I  do  not. 

Q.     This  was  given  in  November? 

A.     Yes,  sir- 

Q.     You   were    working   there   then? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Reads  check:  "11-15-1901.  Pay  to  the  order  of  the  S.  W.  T. 
&  T.  Co.,  $5,  Five  Dollars,  to  W.  B.  Worthen  &  Co.,  Little  Rock, 
Ark.  Jeff  Davis."  Endorsed  S.  W.  T.  &  T.  Co.,  by  H.  W.  Dougherty, 
and  the  pay  mark  of  W.  B.  Worthen  &  Co.  on  it,  showing  that  it 
was  paid  December  6,  5th  or  6th,  1902.  Check  seems  to  have  been 
held  out  about  a  month. 

Q.     Did  you  collect  this   check  for  $5? 

A.     I  said  I  did  not  know  whether  I  did  or  not. 

Q.     Didn't  you  tell  me  last  night  that  you  collected  it? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that  I  did. 

Q.  (Reads)  "Pay  to  the  order  of  the  S.  W.  T.  &  T.  Co.,  $4, 
and  dated  5-3-1902;  Four  Dollars,  to  the  Exchange  National  Bank, 
and  signed  Jeff  Davis;  and  endorsed  on  the  back,  S.  W.  T.  &  T. 
Co.,  by  W.  H.  Dougherty,  and  paid  by  the  German  National  Bank 
May  17,  1902."  Now  did  you  get  the  money  on  this  check  or  did 
the  telephone  company  get  it? 

A.     No,  sir;   the  telephone  company  got  it. 

Q.     Do  you  want  to  see  this  check  any  more? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Well    here   it   is,    look    at    it. 

A.     I  just  wanted  to  know  if  this  is  your  signature? 


—  396  — 

Q.  No, 'sir,  it  is  not;  tliat  is  Mr.  Jacobson's  signature.  I  don't 
think  I  ever  signed  a  voucher  or  a  check  in  my  life  since  I  have 
been  in  there.  That  is  my  name  signed  by  Mr.  Jacobson.  Do  you 
want  to  know  if  I  wrote  that? 

A.     Yes,   sir;    that  was   what   I — 

Q.  No,  sir,  I  did  not;  Mr.  Jacobson  wrote  my  name  there. 
That  is  not  my  signature;  he  wrote  my  name  to  it  and  the  bank 
paid  it. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Mr.  Dougherty,  can  you  refer  to 
the  voucher  you  got  at  the  time  that  that  $5  check  bears  date? 

A.  Give  me  the  date  of  the  check  and  I  can.  (After  making 
an  examination.)  I  don't  think  that  any  voucher  was  paid  on  that. 

Q.     I  have  no  credit  for  that  money  there  have  I? 

A.  I  don't  know  about  that.  If  one  of  the  collectors  brought  it 
in,  as  I  explained,  because  my  name  is  on  the  back  of  it  is  no  saying 
that  I  collected  it. 

Q.  The  bank  would  not  pay  it  unless  you  endorsed  it,  would 
they? 

A.  I  endorse  all  checks  that  come  in  there  to  the  company 
and  deposit  them. 

Q.     In  the  bank  yourself? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  I  do. 

Q.  You  mean  then  that  you  have  to  endorse  the  checks  so 
that  you  can  get  the  money? 

A.  I  say  that  the  company  did,  and  this  one  may  have  been 
among  the  pile  of  checks  that  the  collectors  turned  in,  and  I  just 
endorsed  the  checks  and  turned  them  into  the  bank  to  the  deposit 
of  the  company.  I  did  not  collect  all  the  bills  I  had;  I  had  four 
boys  under  me,  and  the  boys  went  out  and  one  of  them  may  have 
collected  it. 

Q.  If  you  did  not  collect  that,  then  how  do  you  know  that  I  did 
not  pay  the  boys  that  collected  it  for  my  private  telephone  bills? 

A.     I   didn't— 

Q.  Yes,  you  did;  you  said  that  they  were  all  paid  in  the 
amount  on  the  face  of  the  voucher. 

A.     I    don't   remember — 

Q.  You  stated  last  night  or  the  night  before  that  every  one 
of  those  bills  were  paid  in  the  face  of  the  voucher;  that  is  what 
you  said,  didn't  you  say  that  now? 

A.     I  don't  remember  making  that  statement. 


—  397  — 

Q.     Your  testimony  will  show? 

A.     I  don't  remember  making  that  statement. 

Q.  I  say  that  you  did,  though;  you  said  that  every  month 
that  you  collected  there  that  you  collected  for  my  private  resi- 
dence telephone  and  for  Jacobson's  private  residence  telephone, 
and  that  the  amount  of  them  was  in  the  face  of  the  voucher 
charged  up  against  the  State;  you  said  that,  and  you  said  that  I 
never  gave  you  a  dollar  in  money  except  this  $8  check,  and  then 
I  pulled  a  $4  check  on  you,  and  you  say  you  may  have  got  that 
and  here  to-night  is  another  check  for  $5,  and  you  say  you  don't 
know  whether  you  got  that  or  not. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  If  Governor  Davis'  private  'phone  rent 
was  covered  by  those  vouchers  that  you  took  to  the  Auditor's 
office  and  drew  a  warrant  for  the  full  face  of  it/  then  if  it  was 
paid  by  those  checks  it  was  paid  twice,  wasn't  it? 

A.     Those  checks— I  don't  quite  understand  your  question. 

Q.  If  his  private  'phone  rent  was  paid  in  these  vouchers  that 
you  got  a  warrant  for  covering  the  entire  face  of  the  voucher, 
and  then  it  was  paid  by  those  checks,  they  were  paid  twice,  were 
they  not? 

A.  If  that  check  was  for  the  same  date  as  the  voucher,  they 
could  have  been. 

Q.  You  were  collecting  there  for  nine  months,  according  to 
your  testimony,  and  so  in  that  time  you  collected  $18 — $2  a  month 
— now  if  you  collected  $18  by  that  warrant  covering  that  private 
telephone  rent  in  those  vouchers  and  then  collected  $17  by  those 
checks,  then  you  collected  his  residence  telephone  rent  twice? 

A.     I  did  not  say  I  collected  them. 

Q.     Well,   it  went  into  your  hands? 

A.     I  did  not  say  I  collected  $18  on  his  residence. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  You  said  you  went  there  every  month 
and  collected? 

A.  I  said  I  collected  every  m'onth,  and  the  books  will  show 
each  month  how  I  got  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Well,  if  you  only  collected  part  of  the 
telephone  rent  in  those  vouchers,  and  then  collected  $17  by  those 
checks,  then  you  have  collected  part  of  it  twice,  haven't  you? 

A.     1  will  state  that  I  do  not  understand  what  you  are  driving  at. 

Q.  You  have  stated  in  your  testimony  that  you  have  collected 
foi-  Governor  Davis'  private  residence  telephone  rent  in  those  vouch' 
ers — $2  a  m'onth? 


—  398  — 

A.     I  did  not  say  in  every  voucher. 

Q.     Well,  in  some   of  them? 

A.     I  said  to-night — 

Q.     Haven't  you  gone  there  about  four  months? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Well,  that  would  be  $8  then? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  believe  you  stated  last  night  that  you  collected  one  check 
for  $8,  and  the  rest  you  collected  through  a  warrant  out  of  the 
contingent  fund? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  if  there  came  into  your  hands  checks  for  $17 — the 
Governor's  private  telephone  rent  for  that  time  was  only  $18 — 
then  you  would  have  collected  $1  less  than  his  telephone  rent  would 
have  been  for  that  time,  didn't  you? 

A.  No,  sir;  because  those  checks  come  into  my  hands  is  no 
reason  that  I  collected  the  amounts  from  him. 

Q.     Didn't  the  money  come  into  your  hands? 

A.  When  the  collector  turns  in  the  money  he  turns  in  all  the 
money  that  he  has  collected  during  the  day — 

Q.     Well,  they  were  turned  over  to  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir 

Q.     You  knew  it  was  collected? 

A.     I  see  those  checks  there  endorsed  with  my  name. 

Q.     You  knew  they  were  collected  from  Davis? 

A.     I  don't  think  so. 

Q.  Now,  if  you  put  a  bill  into  the  collector's  hands  for  col- 
lection of  a  claim,  say  for  $100,  he  would  have  to  return  that  night 
— he  would  have  to  turn  over  to  you  for  that  bill  that  much  cash 
or  checks? 

A.     His  account  would  be  credited  up  with  what  he  paid  in. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  did  you  not  know  that  these  check? 
were  from  Davis? 

A.  I  did  not  look  over  each  check;  I  only  took  the  amount 
that  would  be  turned  in  to  me. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Will  you  tell  me  that  you  did  not 
receive  each  one  of  these  checks  right  in  your  hands  in  my  office? 

A.     There  is  nothing  to  show  it. 

Q.  I  just  want  to  know — I  want  to  get  at  the  truth  now — 
you  are  swearing  on  your  oath.  Do  you  swear  on  your  oath  that  you 


—  399  — 

did  not   receive   these   checks   individually   from  Mr.   Jacobson  in 
my  office? 

A.  No,  sir;  for  that  is  a  thing  that  I  cannot  swear  to.  That 
is  something  that  there  is  no  way  of  proving  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Did  the  person  that  collected  the  money 
on  these  checks  at  the  bank  have  to  endorse  them  to  get  that 
money? 

A.  I  endorsed  them  when  I  deposited  them  to  the  account 
of  the  company. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  the  bank  and  get  the  money  on  these  checks 
yourself? 

A.     I  deposited  them  to  the  account  of  the  company. 

Q.     You  got  the  balance  in  the  bank  down  there,  didn't  you? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  have  to  endorse  them  when  you  deposited 
them  to  the  credit  of  the  company? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  just  put  them  in  there  to  the  credit  of  the 
company. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Mr.  Dougherty,  Governor  Davis  had  a 
telephone  at  his  residence? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  $18— rented  for  $2  a  month? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     And  Mr.  Jacobson  had  a  telephone  at  his  residence? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  was    $18   for  nine   months? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Considering  it  true  as  Governor  Davis  shows  that  he  paid 
for  his  telephone  at  his  residence,  then  Mr.  Jacobson's  telephone 
rent  of  $18  came  out  of  the  contingent  fund,  or  vice  versa,  there 
would  have  been  $36  due  for  rent  on  the  two  telephones,  then 
one  or  the  other  has  been  drawn  for  out  of  the  contingent  fund, 
is  that  not  a  fact? 

A.  Shows  very  plainly  for  the  four  months  that  both  were 
drawn  out  of  the  contingent  fund.  I  am  not  just  talking  as  to  the 
$18,  I  can't  say  positively  which  one,  but  taking  these  four  vouchers 
I  think  any  impartial  man  can  take  them  and  see  on  those  four 
months  that  it  was  drawn  out  of  the  contingent  fund. 

Governor  Davis  here  proceeds  to  read  a  letter  addressed  to 
him  from  Governor  Lon  Stephens,  and  over  the  objections  of 


—  400  — 

General   Murphy    tlie   Chair   permits    the   letter   to   be   read    aloud 
to  the   committee. 

"February   26,   1903. 
"Hon.   Jeff   Davis.   Little   Rock,  Ark.: 

"My  Dear  Governor— It  is  not  my  intention  to  butt  into  your 
fight,  nor  do  I  care  to  be  quoted,  but  it  occurs  to  me  that  in 
connection -with  the  war  being  made  upon  you,  to  write  you  this 
brief  note.  You  may  use  it  if  it  is  of  any  advantage  to  you, 
but  it  would  not  be  best  to  mention  my  name  in  connection  with  it. 

"In  Missouri  the  fuel  of  which  so  much  is  said  now  in  the 
proceedings  against  you,  is  furnished  the  Governor  of  the  State. 
The  penitentiary,  of  course,  uses  a  great  amount  of  coal,  and  gets 
it  generally  at  a  reduced  figure.  All  the  coal  necessary  to  keep 
the  mansion  warm  and  comfortable  is  furnished  from  the  pen- 
itentiary supply,  and  I  have  never  heard  a  single  objection  to  the 
practice. 

"As  to  the  Governor's  contingent  fund,  in  Missouri,  as  I  under- 
stand, this  fund  is  placed  wholly  in  the  hands  of  the  Governor, 
and  is  to  be  used  as  he  sees  fit,  at  his  discretion  and  option. 
He  can  draw  the  whole  amount  out  as  soon  as  it  has  been  appro- 
priated and  spend  it  as  he  sees  proper,  returning  to  the  treas- 
ury only  the  amount  unused.  The  criticisms  of  a  few  of  your 
persecutors  are,  in  my  judgment,  puerile  and  undignified  in  the 
extreme.  They  are  seemingly  born  in  insincerity  and  have  been 
made  to  annoy  you.  They  reflect  no  credit  upon  your  accusers, 
nor  to  the  State  of  Arkansas.  If  the  Governor  was  out  for  what 
money  he  could  make  he  would  adopt  other  methods,  as  there 
are.  thousands  of  ways  open  to  him  to  advance  his  personal  and 
financial  interests.  While  many  of  the  people  seem  to  have  griev- 
ances against  you,  I  cannot  but  believe  these  contemptible  charges 
above  referred  to,  will  damage  your  accuser  more  than  yourself. 
I  sympathize  with  you  in  your  present  troubles,  and  hope  and 
believe  that  you  will  come  out  honorably  and  to  the  satisfaction 
of  your  many  friends. 

"I  shall  remain  here  another  week,  and  may  spend  a  day  in 
Little  Rock  en  route  home.  Am  greatly  improved  since  I  last 
saw  you,  though  I  am  quite  far  from  being  strong. 


—  401  — 

"My  term  as  Governor  was  as  stormy  as  yours,  but  I  find  many 
of  my  bitterest  enemies  when  in  office  are  my  defenders  and 
friends. 

"Wishing  you  a  successful  administration  in  the  end,  I  beg 
to  remain, 

"Yours  sincerely, 

"LON  V.  STEPHENS." 

Q.  (By  Judge  Merriman)  Was  that  letter  written  to  you 
in  response  to  a  letter  that  you  had  written  him? 

A.     No,  sir;    it  is  a  voluntary  letter. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  never  spoke  to  him  about 
this  matter? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  did;  and  I  want  to  state  to  you  that  I 
have  thousands  of  such  letters,  and  I  will  take  pleasure  In  showing 
them  to  you. 

Colonel  Murphy — Bring  them  all  in.  Might  as  well  read  them 
all. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Heans   Committee 


ON 


Thursday,  March  19, 


1903 


INDEX. 

H.   N.    THOMASSON. 
O.    C.    L.UDWIG. 


—  403  — 

Proceedings  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee,  and  evi- 
dence adduced,  on  the  19th  day  of  March,  1903. 

H.  N.  THOMASSON,  on  oath,  being  by  the  chairman  first  duly 
sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  McCain)     Mr.  Thomasson,  what  are  your  initials? 

A.     H.  N. 

Q.     Where   do   you   live? 

A.     At  Carlisle,  Ark. 

Q.     What  is  your  business? 

A.     My  business,  I  am  a  farmer. 

Q.  Has  there  been  a  subpoena  served  on  you  to  appear  before 
this  committee,  Mr.  Thomasson? 

A.  It  was  left  at  my  home  yesterday  morning,  but  I  don't  know 
just  what  time  of  the  day  it  was  left  there. 

Q.    When  did  you  get  to  Little  Rock? 

A.     I  got  here  on  the  noon  train. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  Governor  Davis  since  you  got  to 
Little  Rock? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Where? 

A.     In  his  office. 

Q.     What  about? 

A.  Why,  he  asked  me  some  things;  if  I  had  heard  Mr.  Jett's 
testimony  in  regard  to  going  out  to  the  Territory. 

Q.  Well,  just  tell  the  committee  what  that  conversation  was 
that  you  had  with  Governor  Davis  this  afternoon? 

A.  He  asked  me  in  regard  to  Mr.  Jett's  testimony,  had  I  seen 
it,  and  I  told  him  I  had.  And  he  asked  me  if  that  was  right,  and 
I  told  him  that  it  was  so  far  as  it  went.  He  asked  me  if  I  knew  any- 
thing about  the  transportation  and  I  told  him  I  knew  nothing 
only  what  he  had  told  me.  He  said  "I  may  have  told  you  some 
statements  that  I  ought  not  to  have  made,  but  if  I  told  you  that,  I 
either  lied  or  else  I  was  drunk." 

Q.     He  said  that  to  you  this  afternoon? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  statement  he  had  made  to  you;  tell  all  about 
the  conversation  that  you  had  with  Governor  Davis,  all  that  he  told 
you? 

A.  Well,  he  said  "Do  you  know  any  thing  about  the  transporta- 
tion— "  "I  know  what  you  told  me,  Governor.  I  know  what  you  told 
me  over  the  telephone/'  He  called  me  up  on  Saturday  evening  over 


—  406  — 

the  telephone  at  Carlisle,  and  said  "I  am  ready  to  start  tomorrow. 
Sunday,  and  I  want  you  to  come  up  and  bring  my  dogs,"  and  I  said, 
"Governor,  my  wife  is  sick,  and  I  don't  expect  I  can  come,"  and  he 
said,  "You  must  come  on  and  go  if  you  can;  I  don't  want  to  go  with- 
out you,"  and  I  said  I  could  not  go  if  the  transportation  was  going 
to  cost  me  $15,  $20  or  $25,  "I  haven't  got  the  money  to  spare  if  it 
is  going  to  cost  me  $15  or  $25,  that  I  did  not  have  the  money  to 
spare;"  and  he  said,  "Come  on,  your  transportation  is  not  going  to 
cost  you  anything;  I  don't  want  to  go  without  you,"  he  said. 

Q.     Did  the  Governor  say  that  he  told  you  that  this  afternoon? 

A.  Well,  he  said  that  he  did  not  say  that;  he  said  that  he 
said  he  had  arranged  the  transportation  so  that  it  wouldn't  cost 
us  anything — meaning  me  and  Mr.  Jett,  but  that  it  was  not  going  to 
include  himself— that  was  the  words  that  he  used;  and  then  I  told 
him  that  he  made  a  statement  to  me  and  Mr.  Jett  when  we  were  on 
our  return  trip;  he  said  that  the  Choctaw  road  had  offered  him  a 
dining  car  with  a  cook  and  furnished  with  provisions,  and  every- 
thing free  of  charge,  but  he  said  he  would  not  accept  it  on  that 
trip,  but  he  said,  "Boys,  we  are  coming  back  next  September  and 
I  will  accept  it  then."  And  he  said  this  evening  that  if  he  made 
that  statement  he  was  lying  or  was  drunk. 

Q.     What  time  was  that  this  afternoon? 

A.     Sometime  about  four  o'clock,  I  reckon. 

Q.     How  did  you  happen  to  go  to  the  Governor's  office? 

A.     He  sent  me  a  request  to  come  over. 

Q.     Who   by? 

A.  I  think  it  was  Mr.  Jacobson;  I  would  not  be  positive.  It 

was  by  some  young  man. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you,  do  you  know  me? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  I  seen  you  at  all  since  you  have  been  in  town? 

A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  talk  with  Colonel  Murphy? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  haven't  seen  him. 

Q.  You  have  not  talked  to  either  one  of  us? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  only  party  interested  in  this  matter  that  you  have 

talked  to — I  mean  by  that,  is  Governor  Davis,  Colonel  Murphy, 

Colonel  Monroe,  Mr.  Crockett  and  Judge  Bradford,  is  Governor 
Davis? 

A.  Davis  is  the  only  man  I  talked  with. 


—  407  — 

Q.  And  you  went  up  to  his  office  after  you  arrived  in  town,  to 
see  him  at  his  request? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  got  a  request  from  a  young  man,  I  don't  know 
who  he  was;  I  would  not  be  positive  who  it  was.  I  know  Mr. 
Jacobson  when  I  see  him  in  the  office,  but  I  don't  know  whether  I 
wouJd  know  him  on  the  street  or  not.  When  he  has  a  hat  on  I 
don't  know  whether  I  would  recognize  him  at  all  or  not.  I  would 
not  go  up  to  the  office  until  I  saw  Mr.  Joe  T.  Robinson,  who  is  a 
friend  of  mine  and  a  lawyer,  and  I  asked  his  advice,  and  he  advised 
me  to  go  up  and  see  him. 

Q.     After  that  you  went  up  there  and  talked  with  him? 

A.     Yes,   sir. 

Q.     You  had  the  conversation  that  you  have  detailed? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  seem  to  feel  outraged  that  you  did 
not  remember  the  things  exactly  as  he  did? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  didn't  seem  to  be.  He  just  made  the  statement 
that  if  he  had  made  that  statement  he  had  lied  or  was  drunk. 

Q.  Now,  then  get  down  to  the  trip — this  was  in  December, 
1901,  or  was  it  1902,  that  you  all  went  on  the  trip  that  you  talked 
about? 

A.  The  20th  day  of  December  last,  a  year  ago.  We  left  on 
Sunday,  I  think — I  don't  remember — Christmas  day — 

Q.     Who  was  that?    Mr.  Jett  and  yourself  and  Governor  Davis? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  paid  no  transportation? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    -Going  out  there? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  got  out  there,  a  coach  was  furnished  you — hitched 
on  to  the  hind  end  of  a  construction  train? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  a  coach  standing  there  on  the  side- 
track and  it  was  hitched  on  and  pulled  some  twenty  or  thirty  miles 
right  out  from  Sayre— it  was  a  new  track  and  the  passenger  trains 
did  not  run  over  it — and  when  we  got  to  Sayre  the  trainmaster,  I 
suppose  you  call  him,  come  up  and  said  "Is  this  Governor  Davis?" 
and  he  said  it  was,  and  he  said,  "  I  have  orders  to"  or  "I  am  ordered 
to  pull  your  coach  anywhere  you  want  to  go."  He  said,  "Have  you 
got  a  coach,  Governor  Davis?"  and  he  said  "I  have  not,  that  I  know 
anything  about,"  and  then  this  man  pulled  out  a  letter  or  a  tele- 
gram and  said  "I  have  a  letter  here"  or  "a  telegram  directing  me 
to  pull  your  car  whenever  you  order  me,  and  I  am  ready  to  take 


—  408  — 

the  engine  and  pull  you  anywhere  you  want  to  go,  and  there  is 
a  coach  standing  there  on  the  switch  for  you."  The  Governor  said 
"If  that  is  the  only  chance  to  ride,  I  guess  we  will  have  to  take  it/' 
and  so  we  took  it  and  stayed  in  it. 

Q.  You  stayed  in  the  coach,  how  long?  How  long  were  you  out 
there? 

A.  We  left  here  on  Sunday  and  got  out  there  about  ten  or 
eleven  o'clock  on  Monday,  and  stayed  out  there  until  about  Saturday 
evening — about  four  o'clock. 

Q.  And  when  you  come  back,  the  coach  was  pulled  back  with 
you  and  Governor  Davis  and  Mr.  Jett  in  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  Mr.  Jett  and  I  stayed  in  it. 

Q.     What  became  of  Governor  Davis? 

A.  He  went  in  the  sleeper,  but  Mr.  Jett  and  I  stayed  in  the 
car.  The  conductor  tried  to  switch  it  off  time  and  again,  and  I  and 
Mr.  Jett  told  him  we  wouldn't  get  out  of  it. 

Q.     Now,  you  say  you  paid  no  fare  going  or  coming? 

A.  No,  sir;  Governor  Davis  and  me  and  Mr.  Jett.  Governor 
Davis  paid  sleeper  fare  going  up  there. 

(Mr.  Jacobson  here  comes  around  near  the  witness  and  asks 
him  if  he  is  the  man  that  came  to  him  and  told  him  that  Governor 
Davis  wanted  to  see  him.) 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Is  that  the  man  that  came  down  for 
you? 

A.     I  don't  know.     I  can't  say  for  sure. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Jacobson)  Don't  you  know  that  I  didn't  come 
down  there  or  that  you  haven't  seen  me  at  all? 

A.  I  said  this,  Mr.  Jacobson,  that  I  did  not  know  for  sure 
who  it  was  that  came  after  me,  but  it  was  a  young  man  about  your 
size,  apparently,  but  I  don't  know  for  sure  who  the  man  was.  I 
was  talking  to  Mr.  Irving  at  the  time,  and  Mr.  Irving  didn't  know 
who  he  was.  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  you  or  not,  Mr.  Jacobson. 
Mr.  Irving  asked  me  who  it  was  brought  me  the  message,  and  I 
said  "never  mind  how  I  got  it,  but  I  got  it."  I  thought  maybe  it 
was  Mr.  Jacobson.  but  I  am  not  positive  who  the  young  man  was. 

Q.     You  all  three  came  back  on  this  trip,  did  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  did  not  pay  any  fare  or  Mr.  Jett  did  not,  as  far  as 
you  know? 

A.  I  suppose  not,  for  Governor  Davis  told  me  that  it  wouldn't 
cost  anything. 


—  409  — 

Q.     He  said  the  transportation  wouldn't  cost  anything? 

A.    Well,  that  was  the  amount  of  it. 

Q.  When  was  it  that  he  told  you  that  h«  would  get  a  dining 
car  or  a  sleeper  or  something  of  that  kind  from  the  Choctaw  road, 
that  the  Choctaw  road  had  offered  to  him? 

A.  When  we  were  coming  back  off  of  that  trip.  He  said  he 
did  not  accept  it  then,  but  he  would  accept  it  next  September. 

Q.     What  sort  of  a  car  was  that? 

A.     It  was  a  partitioned  car,  an  old  car. 

Q.     A  very  old  car? 

A.     Yes,' sir;  it  was  an  old  car,  wasn't  very  nice. 

Q.     Was  it  used  for  the  general  passengers  on  the  road? 

A.  I  don't  think  it  was.  No,  I  don't  think  it  had  been  for 
some  time.  The  conductor  said  that  was  the  reason  he  wanted  to 

switch  it  off,  it  looked  rough.  He  wanted  to  leave  it  at — 

Oklahoma,  but  Mr.  Jett  and  I  wouldn't  get  out  of  it. 

Q.  On  the  trip  coming  back,  when  they  brought  the  car  back, 
was  the  car  used  by  the  general  public,  er  did  you  all  just  have 
the  use  of  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  all  had  it  to  yourselves? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  had  your  dogs  and  guns  and  game  in  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     Our  game  and  guns  and  dogs. 

Q.     And  it  never  cost  you  anything? 

A.     No,  sir;  it  didn't  cost  me  anything. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Mr.  Thomasson,  you  say  that  car  was 
away  out  in  Oklahoma  when  you  got  there? 

A.     It  was  at  Sayre. 

Q.     Then  you  didn't  go  from  here  out  there  in  a  special  car? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  know  that  it  was  arranged  by  anybody  that 
you  should  come  back  to  Little  Rock  in  that  old  car,  did  you? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  did  not. 

Q.  And  the  conductor  tried  to  switch  it  off  several  times,  T 
believe  you  stated? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  not  certain  as  to  whether  Governor  Davis  included 
himself  with  you  when  he  said  that  it  wouldn't  cost  you  anything 
or  not,  do  you? 

A.     I  dan't  know  only  what  he  said. 


—  410  — 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  personal  knowledge  that  Gov- 
ernor Davis  did  not  pay  for  your  transportation  out  there  and 
back? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  can't  say  that  he  did  not  do  it,  but  it  is  my 
impression  that  there  wasn't  anything  paid  by  anybody. 

Q.     You  stated  that  he  paid — 

A.  Well,  he  paid  the  sleeper  fare  for  him  and  his  son,  when 
they  went  into  the  sleeper,  but  that  was  when  they  were  coming 
back  on  Saturday  night. 

Q.  You  don't  know,  then,  that  he  never  paid  his  fare  there 
and  back? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  can't  say  just  positively  whether  he  did  or  not. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  your  relations  with  Governor  Davis 
are  friendly  or  not? 

A.  Why,  I  have  nothing  against  Governor  Davis  any  more 
than  any  other  good  citizen.  He  and  I  fell  out  last  summer 
because  I  would  not  swear  to  a  statement  that  he  wanted  to  dictate 
and  me  to  sign  so  he  could  use  it,  and  he  has  had  no  use  for  me 
since. 

Q.     And  you  haven't  much  use  for  him? 

A.     I  have  as  much  use  for  him  as  I  ever  did. 

Q.     You  do? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  as  much  as  I  ever  did. 

Q.     You  don't  think  very  much  of  him,  though? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  is  two  traits  of  character  that  I  admire  in 
Governor  Davis,  and  I  think  the  majority  of  the  people  of  the  State 
admire  it  too  for  the  reason  they  voted  for  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  Governor  Davis  ever  accepted  the  accom- 
modation that  the  railroad  company  you  say  offered  him — you  said 
that  he  said  he  would  accept  it? 

A.     He  said  he  would  accept  it. 

Q.  He  did  not  refuse  to  accept  it,  but  said  that  he  would  accept 
it,  do  you  know  whether  he  ever  accepted  it  in  the  future? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Wafford)  Did  you  understand  at  the  time  that 
you  was  wanted  by  Governor  Davis? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  send  for  you,  or  did  you  go  to  see  him  voluntarily? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  sent  a  young  man,  and  the  young  man  said  that 
the  Governor  wanted  me  to  come  up  and  talk  with  him. 


—  411  — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  What  was  the  statement  that  Governor 
Davis  wanted  you  to  sign,  Mr.  Thomasson? 

(Mr.  Whitley  objects  to  the  statement  being  given.  The  chair 
overrules  his  objection  and  directs  the  witness  to  answer  the  ques- 
tion.) 

Q.     Tell  us,  as  near  as  you  can. 

A.  He  wired  me — I  think  it  was  before  the  church  trial  was  to 
take  place  on  Wednesday,  I  think  the  first  time  he  was  cited  before 
the  church,  to  come  up,  that  he  wanted  to  see  me.  He  first  asked 
me  to  sign  a  statement  in  the  presence  of  Preacher  Thompson, 
pastor  of  the  First  Methodist  Church,  Little  Rock,  at  the  time— a 
statement  in  regard  to  Governor  Eagle,  and  I  refused  to  do  it, 
and  told  him  that  I  would  not,  that  Governor  Eagle  was  a  friend 
of  mine  and  my  family — 

Q.  State  to  the  committee,  Mr.  Thomasson,  what  Governor 
Davis  wanted  you  to  sign — what  was  the  statement? 

A.  He  wanted  me  to  make  a  statement  that  I  had  heard  of  it — 
through  a  second  party — a  party  had  told  me,  and  he  wanted  me  to 
write  out  a  statement  and  give  that  party's  name  and  let  him 
publish  it,  and  I  positively  told  him  I  would  not  do  it.  That  Gov- 
ernor Eagle  was  a  friend  of  mine  and  I  would  not  help  him  injure 
Governor  Eagle.  Afterwards,  he  wanted  to  dictate  a  statement 
or  wanted  me  to  write  but  a  statement,  or  have  it  written  out  and 
swear  to  it,  a  statement  in  regard  to  his  drinking;  wanted  me  to 
state  that  I  had  never  seen  him  under  the  influence  of  whisky  at 
any  time,  and  I  told  him  I  could  not  do  it.  I  told  him,  I  says  "I 
will  go  in  to  Mr.  Martin's  room  and  dictate  a  statement  and  bring 
it  to  you,  the  best  I  can  make,"  and  he  wouldn't  have  it.  I  don't 
know  what  he  wanted,  I  told  him  the  best  I  could.  He  then  asked 
me  to  remain  there  in  the  room — in  his  office  and  let  him  bring  the 
dogs  out,  so  the  dogs  wouldn't  follow  me  when  I  went  away,  and  I 
went  by  Mr.  Martin's  desk,  and  there  was  one  of  the  statements 
there — 

Q.  And  that  was  when  you  fell  out,  that  was  over  at  the 
Governor's  office? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  had  some  business  disagreements — money 
matters  with  him  where  he  got  very  mad  about,  he  claiming  that  I 
owed  him  something  and  I  claiming  that  he  owed  me  something,  he 
disputed  my  account — 

Q.  But  as  far  as  these  statements  are  concerned,  he  wanted 
you  to  sign  them? 


—  412  — 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I  told  him  that  I  could  not  afford  to  do  it  as 
an  honest  man. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  You  say  that  you  have  no  personal 
knowledge  of  whether  Governor  Davis  paid  the  transportation  or 
not.  Did  he  tell  you  whether  he  did  or  not? 

A.     No;  he  told  me  what  I  have  told  you  here  in  regard  to  it. 

Q.     How  was  that? 

A.     That  was  all  that  he  said. 

Q.     How  was  that?     What  was  it? 

A.  He  says  when  I  told  him  I  didn't  want  to  pay  out  any 
money,  he  told  me — he  says  the  transportation  would  cost  us 
nothing. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Wafford)  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you 
and  Governor  Davis  had  some  trouble  about  your  personal  business? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Is  it  true  that  Governor  Davis  holds  your  note  to-day? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     He  has  got  no  note  of  yours? 

A.  No,  sir.  He  claims  that  I  owe  him  $50,  and  I  have  an 
account  against  him  for  $83  that  there  is  some  credits  on,  and  I 
consider  that  I  do  not  owe  him  anything. 

Q.     So  he  has  not  got  your  note? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  wrote. Governor  Davis  several  letters  calling  his 
attention  to  the  matter  and  he  wouldn't  answer  me,  and  I  got 
the  operator  of  the  telephone  at  Williams  to  call  him  up  so  I  could 
talk  to  him  about  the  matter,  and  he  refused  to  answer. 

Q.  {By  Mr.  McCain)  It  remains  a  fact,  however,  that  he  sent 
for  you  and  you  went  to  the  office — went  to  his  office? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

O.  C.  LUGWIG,  on  oath,  being  by  the  Chairman  first  duly 

sworn,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  What  position,  if  any,  do  you  hold 

in  this  State  as  an  official? 

A.  I  am  a  deputy  in  Mr.  Crockett's  office,  the  Secretary  of 
State. 

Q.  What  book  is  that  you  have  there — what  record? 

A.  That  is  the  minutes  of  the  meetings  of  the  Penitentiary 
Board. 

Q.  Have  you  made  an  examination  of  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Between  any  points? 

A  Yes,  sir. 


—  413  — 

Q.  Between,  say  the  13th  of  August,  1901,  and  November  21, 
1902. 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  take  the  book  and  point  out  at  page  259, 
read  the  entry  you  find  on  that  page  in  relation  to  farms  offered 
to  the  Penitentiary  Board  for  a  convict  farm? 

A.  The  secretary  read  propositions  from  the  following  owners, 
offering  to  sell  to  the  board  lands  to  be  used  for  a  convict  farm: 
J.  M.  &  J.  G.  Taylor,  Pine  Bluff;  Louis  Altheimer,  Pine  Bluff;  J.  C. 
Martin,  Little  Rock;  John  T.  Hardie  &  Sons,  New  Orleans;  G.  B. 

,  and  Sappington,  Little  Rock;  Henderson, 

Fort  Smith;  M.  W.  Greeson,  Prescott;  J.  H.  Hollis,  Little  Rock: 
N.  B.  Beakley,  England,  and  for  an  investigation  of  the  following 
lands  offered  for  sale  by  the  following  parties:  J.  M.  &  J.  G. 
Taylor,  lands  in  Lincoln  County  and  others;  Louis  Altheimer,  lands 
in  Jefferson  County;  N.  B.  Beakley,  lands  in  Lonoke  County;  J.  C 
Martin,  lands  in  Lincoln  County;  John  T.  Hardie  &  Sons,  lands  in 
Chicot  County,  the  expenses  of  investigation  to  be  paid  out  of  the 
penitentiary  fund. 

Q.     What  is  the  date  of  that  entry? 

A.     Date  is  August  13,  1901. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Ludwig,  have  you  examined  the  book,  and  can 
you  state  whether  that  is  the  first  entry  of  proposals  for  the  sale 
of  lands  made  to  that  board  as  organized  at  that  time? 

A.     I  can't  state  that  positively,  Colonel  Murphy. 

Q.  Can't  you  look  hurriedly  through  the  book  and  see  if  that 
is  the  first  meeting  of  the  board? 

A.  (After  examining  the  book)  Yes,  sir;  that  was  the  first 
meeting.  I  find  in  July  27,  1901,  there  was  a  resolution  adopted 
touching  the  receipt  of  offers  for  the  sale  of  a  convict  farm  to 
the  board.  A  member  of  the  board  introduced  a  resolution,  which 
was  adopted,  that  the  board  would  on  the  9th  day  of  August,  1901— 
that  the  Penitentiary  Board  would  hear  offers  for  the  sale  of  lands 
for  a  convict  farm  and  on  that  day  would  consider  them.  This 
resolution  was  introduced  and  adopted  on  the  27th  day  of  July,  1901. 

Q.  Look  down  and  see  when  the  first  offer  was  presented. 
There  was  no  offer  in  at  that  time? 

A.  No,  sir.  The  next  was  on  August  13;  that  was  f»-  flrst 
offer — I  read  it  a  while  ago. 

Q.     That  is  the  first  entry  of  any  offer  of  farms? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   appears  to  be. 


—  414  — 

Q.  Well,  now  pass  down  from  there  to  page  277,  the  meeting 
of  October  16,  1901,  and  tell  us  if  Louis  Altheimer  made  any  other 
offer  between  those  dates? 

A.  Here  is  a  reference — On  September  2,  1901 — of  a  propo- 
sition to  sell  the  State  Penitentiary  Board  a  farm  for  the  use  of 
convict  labor,  and  was  read  from  W.  H.  Eagle,  and  the  secretary 
was  advised  to  correspond  with  Mr.  Eagle  further  in  regard  to  the 
same. 

Q.  But  that  was  on  page  169,  the  calling  up  of  the  State  farm 
question  was  deferred  until  the  next  Tuesday's  meeting  of  the  board. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Crutcher)     What  date  is  that? 

A.     September   6,1901.     The  next  is  on  pages  276  and  277. 
Here  is  an  entry;  Governor  Davis  moved  that  the  board  purchase  the 
Hayward  farm  for  a  convict  farm  upon  the  terms  and  at  the  price 
offered  by  Mr.  Altheimer. 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)     On  what  date  is  that? 

A.     October  11. 

Q.     Give  us  the  vote,  Mr.  Ludwig? 

A.  On  the  adoption  of  the  motion,  the  following  voted  "aye,5' 
Messrs.  Davis  and  Crockett;  in  the  negative,  Messrs.  Monroe,  Hill 
and  Murphy,  so  the  motion  failed. 

Q.     What  was  the  price  there? 

A.  There  is  no  reference  to  the  price;  "on  the  terms  and  at 
the  price  offered." 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Crutcher)     That  don't  show  the  price? 

A.     No,  sir;  the  record  don't  show  the  price. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy,  continuing)  Did  Mr.  Altheimer  put 
in  but  one  offer? 

A.  That  seems  to  be  the  only  mention  of  an  offer  from  Mr. 
Altheimer. 

Q.  Now,  from  that  date,  October  16,  1901,  up  to  September  19, 
1902,  is  there  any  entry  at  all  about  any  purchase  of  a  farm  or 
about  any  offer  of  one  to  the  board  for  sale? 

A.     I  don't  see  any  in  reading  through  the  minutes. 

Q.     Well,  you  have  examined  them,  can  you  say  there  is  none? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  the  records  show  none  after  those  dates? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  don't  think  they  do. 

Q.  Well,  passing  down  now  to  the  next — to  page  319,  the  meet- 
ing of  September  19,  1902,  what  does  that  indicate,  if  anything, 
about  the  offer  of  any  farms? 


—  415  — 

A.  Propositions  to  sell  the  State  farms  were  read  from  the 
following  persons:  W.  H.  Miller,  the  Cummins  and  Maple  Grove 
plantations  in  Lincoln  County;  J.  E.  Terry,  3,400  acres  near  Palarm, 
Faulkner  County;  E.  B.  Houston,  11,500  acres  in  Lincoln  County. 

Q.  Now,  were  any  other  propositions  presented  to  the  board 
between  that  date  and  November  21,  1902,  so  far  as  the  record  entries 
show,  and  if  so,  by  whom?  Did  Mr.  Altheimer  make  any  proposition 
between  those  dates? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not.  Here  is  a  proposition  from  John  T. 
Hardie  &  Sons. 

Q.     But  Mr.  Altheimer  made  none? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  pass  down  to  the  record  entry  of  November  21,  1902 — 
fhe  purchase.  Is  that  the  record  entry  of  the  purchase  or  not, 
and  the  motions  that  were  made  pro  and  con?  Does  it  show  whether 
this  purchase  was  made  on  that  date? 

A.  Mr.  Murphy  made  this  order — November  21,  1902,  that  the 
board  accept  the  proposition  of  Edward  Urquhart,  to  sell  the  State 
his  farm  know  as  the  Cummins  and  Maple  Grove  plantation,  be 
accepted  and  the  Financial  Agent  be  directed  to  pay  the  cash 
payment  of  $30,000  on  the  execution  of  the  contract  and  the  acknowl- 
edgment of  the  same  by  Edward  Urquhart  and  the  president  and 
secretary  sign  the  contract  for  the  State  and  that  all  other  members 
of  the  board  who  will  do  so  sign  the  same. 

Q.  Does  the  record  show  that  the  purchase  was  made  on  that 
date? 

A.  On  Mr.  Murphy's  motion,  the  roll  was  called  and  the  follow- 
ing members  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  voted  "Aye:"  Mr.  Monroe, 
Bradford,  Murphy,  and  Crockett;  in  the  negative,  Mr.  Davis. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  ask  you  the  general  question,  whether  that 
entire  record  there  up  to  the  date  of  that  purchase,  shows  but  the 
one  offer  of  Mr.  Altheimer  or  not? 

A.     That  is  the  only  offer  I  have  discovered  in  the  record. 

Q.  Have  you  read  it  with  sufficient  care  to  have  discovered  it, 
if  there  had  been  an  additional  one? 

A'.     I  think  I  have. 

Q.     Where  is  Mr.  Crockett — the  Secretary  of  State? 

A.  I  had  a  telegram  from  him  yesterday  stating  that  he  was 
in  Memphis,  and  could  not  get  over  on  account  of  the  high  water. 

Q.     Have  you  any  information  when  he  will  get  here? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  have  not. 


—  416  — 

Q.     Did  Mr.  Altheimer  ever,  to  your  knowledge,  file  but  the  one 
offer  in  your  office? 

A.     Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)     Did  you  attend  all  these  board  meetings? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     You  did  not  transcribe  it  into  the  records? 

A.     No,  sir.     These  are  the  minutes  that  are  furnished  by  Mr. 
Crockett,  who  is  secretary  of  the  board. 

Q.     You    don't   know    whether   anything   is   missing   from   the 
records? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    You   don't  know  whether   Mr.   Altheimer   ever   offered   an 
additional  proposition  or  not? 

•  A.     No,  sir;  only  what  is  recited  here. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways   and    Means   Committee 


ON 


Friday,  flarch  20, 
1903 


Testimony— 14. 


INDEX. 

HON.  T.  C.  MONROE, 
DR.  J.  R.  WALTERS, 
GEORGE  W.  MURPHY, 
DR.  C.  E.  WITT, 
GEORGE  W.  MURPHY. 


—  419  - 

Testimony  adduced  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  on 
the  20th  day  of  March,  1903. 

HON.  T.  C.  MONROE  being  recalled,  deposes  and  testifies  as 
follows : 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Colonel  Monroe,  you  recollect 
the  date  of  the  first  meeting  of  the  Penitentiary  Board  as  organ- 
ized; I  mean  the  first  meeting  of  the  board  composed  of  yourself, 
Governor  Davis,  Mr.  Hill,  Mr.  Crockett  and  myself,  when  we  were 
all  members  of  the  board? 

A.  I  don't  believe  I  remember  the  date,  Colonel,  but  I  believe 
it  was  in  January,  1901. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  or  not  it  was  about  the  18th  of 
January? 

A.     It  was  about  that  time;  about  the  18th  I  believe. 

Q.  You  have  examined  the  recorded  minutes  of  the  proceed- 
ings of  the  board,  have  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  or  not  from  the  date  of  the  first 
meeting — the  18th  of  January — about  that  time — up  to  the  time  that 
the  resolution  was  introduced  to  prepare  rules  and  regulations  for 
the  discipline  and  government  of  the  convicts,  I  mean  whether  or 
not  you  recollect  whether  or  not  between  those  dates  any  motion 
was  ever  made  or  steps  taken  to  change  the  treatment  of  the  con- 
victs in  any  way? 

A.     Now  to  the  best  of  my  recollection,   sir — 

Q.     You  have  examined  the  records? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  find  from  them  that  there  was  none? 

A.     There  is  no  record  of  it. 

Q.  Well,  if  such  a  motion  had  been  made  or  resolution  offered 
there  would  have  been  a  record  of  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   should  have  been. 

Q.  And  do  you  recollect  that  the  motion  or  rather  the  order 
for  drawing  up  those  rules  was  made  on  the  28th  of  June,  1901? 

A.  I  can't  remember  the  date,  Colonel,  but  I  know  at  one 
meeting  there  was  a  committee  appointed  to  draft  them,  and  I 
know  at  the  meeting  following  they  were  to  make  their  report. 


-  420  — 

Q.     Do  you  recollect  whether  or  not  that  committee  did  report? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     At  the  next  meeting? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  at  the  next  meeting,  following  the  time  when 
they  were  appointed. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  those  rules  extended  over  page 
234  to  page  242,  inclusive,  of  the  records  of  the  board,  and  at  the 
meeting  on  the  8th  of  July,  if  you  remember — let  me  give  it  to  you, 
I- want  you  to  get  the  dates.  (Shows  witness  the  book  containing 
the  records  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Penitentiary  Board.)  Now 
there  is  the  date  of  that  meeting;  what  is  it? 

A.     It  is  July  8,  1901. 

Q.    And  here  is  the  beginning  of  the  rules  on  page  234? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  state  whether  or  not  they  extend  from  234  to  242, 
inclusive? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  correct? 

Q.  Now  between  that  date  and  the  12th  of  August,  same  year, 
was  there  any  resolution  or  motion  made  looking  to  a  change  in 
the  treatment  of  the  prisoners  or  their  government? 

A.  Well,  there  had  been  a  resolution  offered  ameliorating  the 
treatment  and  so  on,  was  all  embodied  in  that  meeting,  all  on  the 
same  date;  the  resolution  may  have  been  adopted  later  about  the 
government  of  the  convicts,  but  I  don't  remember. 

Q,     Didn't  you  go  through  the  books  this  afternoon? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  those  rules  were  made  in  pursuance  of  a  motion  made 
by  somebody? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  records  do  not  disclose  whom? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  who  was  put  on  the  committee  to  formu- 
late those  rules? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Who? 

A.     Governor  Davis,  yourself  and  Judge  Hill. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  or  not  all  the  members  voted 
for  them? 


—  421  — 

A.     My  recollection  is  that  they  did  not. 

Q.     Who  did  not  vote  for  the  adoption  of  the  rules? 

A.  My  recollection — I  can't  trust  my  memory  without  examin- 
ing the  records.  But  my  recollection  is  that  they  were  adopted  by 
a  vote  of  three  to  two. 

Q.     What  three? 

A.  Governor  Davis  and  Mr.  Crockett  voted  against  it,  as  I 
remember;  the  records  though  do  not  disclose.  There  was  some 
objection  to  that  resolution. 

Q.  From  that  time  on  to  the  10th  of  August  when  we  had 
that  trouble  about  the  interview  in  the  Globe-Democrat,  a  speech 
where  the  Governor  had  said  that  he  had  made,  and  in  which  he 
took  us  to  task,  was  there  any  motion  or  resolution  made  to  change 
the  treatment  of  the  convicts  at  all? 

A.     None  that  I  remember,  or  none  that  the  records  disclose. 

Q.  Colonel  Monroe,  if  it  had  been,  wouldn't  the  record  dis- 
close it? 

A.  It  should  do  it,  but  it  does  not  disclose  it  to  the  best  of 
my  recollection;  there  is  no  mention  there  of  it. 

Q.  So  that  with  the  exception  of  these  rules  then  that  were 
made  there  was  no  step  taken,  and  no  motion  made  by  anybody  to 
change  the  diet  or  the  treatment  or  the  manner  of  working  the 
convicts  from  the  time  when  the  board  first  met  up  to  the  10th 
of  August,  1901? 

A.  No,  sir;  except  those  included  in  this  resolution  there  and 
rules. 

Q.  Now  on  the  10th  of  August  was  there  or  not  a  resolution, 
introduced  by  myself,  calling  attention  to  that  Globe-Democrat  in- 
terview and  the  speech  that  it  said  Governor  Davis  had  made,  in 
which  he  charged  the  three  members  of  the  board,  excluding  him- 
self and  Mr.  Crockett,  with  cruelty  to  the  convicts? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Have  you  seen  a  copy  of  that  resolution? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  it  or  not,  just  look  at  it  and  see  if  that  is  a  copy 
of  the  resolution  as  it  appears  on  the  records  here? 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Is  that  a  copy  of  the  record? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  422  — 

Q.     Why  not  read  the  record? 

A.  Well  you  can  look  at  the  copy  and  see  if  it  one  and  I  will 
read  the  recorded  copy. 

(Colonel  Murphy  here  proceeds  to  read  the  copy  and  part  of 
the  record  referred  to,  while  Chairman  Merriman  and  Mr.  Whitley 
compare  same  with  the  copy  hereto  attached  at  the  request  of 
the  parties  hereto.) 

Q.     Now  that  motion  was  made  on  the  12th  of  August? 

A.     The  10th  or  12th;    yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  was  done  with  it;  do  you  recollect 
whether  or  not  there  was  a  substitute  resolution  made  by  the  Gov- 
ernor or  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  there  was. 

Q.     What  for? 

A.  For  the  annulment  of  the  Dickinson  contract;  the  contract 
with  the  Brick  Manufacturing  Company. 

Q.     Without  any  evidence? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  annulled  or  not;  was  the  substitute  passed  and  the 
original  voted  down  or  not? 

A.     I  think  so. 

Q.     Don't  you  know? 
A.     I  think  so;  yes,  sir. 

Q.     Then  there  was  no  evidence  at  all  there  at  the  time? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  upon  the  consideration  of  the  motion  and 
the  substitute  that  there  was  quite  an  argument  and  heated  discus- 
sion between  us  about  that  matter? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  or  not  recollect  my  saying  to  the  Governor  that  it 
was  unmerited  and  unwarranted  in  him  to  go  into  the  newspapers 
and  make  those  statements  and  charges  against  the  other  members 
of  the  board  simply  because  they  could  not  see  their  way  to  vote 
with  him  for  the  annullment  of  the  contract  between  the  State  and 
the  Brick  Manufacturing  Company? 

A.     In  substance;  I  don't  remember  the  language. 

Q.  And  do  you  recollect  me  calling  his  attention  to  that  par- 
ticular interview  in  the  Globe-Democrat  where  it  was  said  that  he 
had  said  that  he  had  made  that  speech,  in  which  he  called  these 


—  423  — 

other  three  members  a  disgrace  to  the  State,  and  that  he  intended 
to  go  on  the  stump  and  before  the  people — do  you  remember  my 
stating  that — and  show  them  up? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  remember  that  very  speech. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  he  said  that  he  had  done  it — 
had  made  that  speech? 

A.     Yes,  sir;    and  would  go  before  the  people  and  make  it — 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  my  telling  him  that  it  was  a  libelous  pro- 
ceeding on  the  part  of  him  and  unmanly — unmerited? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  remember  that. 

Q.  Did  he  deny  that  he  had  done  it,  that  he  had  made  that 
speech? 

A.     No,  sir;  he  did  not  deny  it. 

Q.     Did  he  assert  to  us  that  he  would  continue  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  his  calling  Jesse  Stackhouse,  an  ex-convict, 
before  the  board  to  testify  about  an  ex-convict  Rector,  who  had 
died  during  his  term  as  attorney  general? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  at  that  time  he  had  a  photograph  of 
Rector,  who  was  in  a  skeleton  condition  when  it  was  taken? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  or  not  state — I  only  want  the  testimony  of  Stack- 
house  to  use  in  showing  it? 

A.  I  don't  remember  the  language,  but  he  did  in  a  general 
way. 

Q.  Were  you  at  Magnolia  some  week  or  two  weeks  or  two 
or  three  weeks  after  this  meeting,  where  he  said  he  would  go  over 
the  State  and  continue  that  talk  about  the  members  of  the  board 
because  they  refused  to  vote  with  him? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     For  his  sentiments? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  make  a  speech  down  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  he  have  the  picture  of  that  skeleton  with  him  or  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  He  had  it  with  him  and  handed  it  around  among 
the  people  in  the  courthouse  where  he  made  the  speech. 


—  424- 

Q.  Did  he  talk  about  the  members  of  the  board  in  that  speech, 
in  the  manner  in  which  the  reporters  said  that  he  said  he  did  in  his 
review  in  the  Globe-Democrat? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  except  myself;  he  exonerated  me  for  it,  but  said 
that  I  had  got  religion  and  joined  the  Lord's  side  since  then,  that 
was  to  say  that  I  had  joined  with  him. 

Q.  That  was  the  only  vote  that  you  did  cast  with  him  on  the 
Dickinson  contract? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  had  voted  with  him  to  annul  that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  in  that  speech  down  there  he  said  you  had  got  religion? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   come  over  on  the  Lord's  side. 

Q.  And  that  religion  consisted  in  voting  with  him  in  annulling 
the  Arkansas  Brick  Manufacturing  contract? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    And   so  you  had  got  religion? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  was  now  over  on  the  Lord's  side?  . 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  referring  to  the  rules,  Colonel  Monroe,  do  you  recol- 
lect who  caused  the  appointment  of  that  committee;  do  you  recol- 
lect whether  anything  had  come  to  the  knowledge  or  information  of 
the  members  of  the  board  about  the  over-working  of  the  convicts, 
or  about  the  feeding  of  them  or  anything  of  that  sort,  that  caused 
the  board  to  appoint  a  committee  for  the  formation  of  those  rules? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  had  been  some  complaint  made  to  the 
board  that  at  the  different  places  some  of  them  were  being  worked 
overtime;  at  some  of  the  places  twelve  hours,  and  at  some  places 
perhaps  fifteen  hours  a  day. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  at  another  meeting  that  we  had, 
whether  there  was  a  resolution  passed  for  the  framing  of  these 
additional  rules? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  at  the  other  first  meeting  was  when  the 
board  became  possessed  of  the  complaints. 

(The  Chairman  here,  by  request  of  a  majority,  asks  that  the 
rules  referred  to  be  read  and  made  a  part  of  the  record  in  this  ex- 
amination.) 

(Colonel  Murphy  proceeds  to  read  the  rules  as  adopted  by  the 
board,  and  as  they  appear  of  record  in  the  minutes  of  the  proceed- 
ings of  the  Penitentiary  Board,  which  are  as  follows:) 


—  425  — 

"RULES   OF   THE  ARKANSAS   PENITENTIARY. 
"Discipline. 

"These  were  partially  adopted  on  the  8th  of  July,  1901. 

"No.  1.  When  the  morning  bell  rings,  each  convict  shall  arise 
and  dress,  make  up  his  bed,  put  his  cell  in  order  and  be  ready  to 
leave  his  cell  at  the  sound  of  the  signal.  Upon  returning  to  his 
cell  he  is  required  to  close  the  door  and  stand  at  it  until  counted. 
At  the  signal  for  retiring  he  shall  undress,  go  to  bed,  and  not  get 
up  therefrom  until  the  ringing  of  the  morning  bell,  unless  compelled 
to  do  so  by  necessity. 

"No.  2.  No  convict  shall  have  in  his  cell  or  on  his  person  any 
writing  material,  knife  or  tools  of  any  kind,  without  the  permission 
of  the  warden.  He  shall  not  mark  upon  or  deface  in  any  way 
any  part  of  the  walls  or  buildings  or  any  other  property  of  the 
penitentiary,  or  books  or  papers  furnished  for  convicts  to  read. 

"No.  3.  Convicts  shall  preserve  unbroken  silence  at  all  times, 
except  they  may  approach  an  officer  in  a  respectful  manner  and 
address  him  in  regard  to  their  work  or* wants,  and  by  permission 
may  converse  with  one  another.  They  shall  work  diligently  and 
shall  not  leave  the  place  where  they  may  be  stationed  without  per- 
mission of  the  officer  in  charge. 

"No.  4.  Convicts  may  be  visited  by  their  relatives  or  friends, 
not  to  exceed  three  at  any  one  time,  and  not  oftener  than  once  each 
month;  and  on  a  day  designated  by  the  Superintendent,  and  no  con- 
vict shall  receive  anything  but  the  prison  allowances,  unless  by 
order  of  the  physician  or  permission  of  the  Superintendent. 

"No.  5.  All  letters,  papers  or  communications,  to  or  from 
friends  outside  the  prison,  must  be  subject  to  the  inspection  of  the 
warden. 

"No.  6.  No  convict  shall  for  any  cause  be  punished  by  whip- 
ping upon  his  naked  body;  and  no  warden  shall  whip  any  convict 
except  he  be  designated  and  authorized  so  to  do  by  the  Superin- 
tendent, in  advance;  and  report  thereof  shall  be  made  by  the 
Superintendent  monthly  to  the  board,  together  with  the  causes 
therefor.  And  a  witness  shall  be  called  to  all  whippings,  and  in  no 
case  shall  more  than  ten  lashes  be  administered  at  any  one  time. 

"No.  7.  Members  of  the  clergy  of  all  religious  denominations 
are  invited  to  visit  the  penitentiary  and  camps  on  Sundays  and 
hold  services  for  convicts;  and  all  convicts  are  expected  to  attend 
such  services  and  maintain  respectful  silence,  whether  such  ser- 
vices are  conducted  by  the  regular  chaplain  or  by  volunteer  clergy. 


—  426  — 

"No.  8.  The  penitentiary  physician  shall  from  time  to  time 
recommend  to  the  board  and  to  the  Superintendent  such  regula- 
tions and  changes  in  relation  to  diet,  drinking  water,  stockades, 
camps,  sleeping  apartments,  working  hours  and  other  matters  as  he 
may  deem  necessary  or  advisable  for  the  comfort  and  preservation 
of  the  health  of  the  convicts. 

"No.  9.  No  convict  in  any  camp  or  elsewhere  shall  be  worked 
in  the  rain,  nor  unreasonably  hard,  nor  for  more  than  ten  hours 
per  day,  except  that  on  farms  operated  on  the  State  account  system, 
they  may  in  the  planting  and  cultivating  season  when  necessity 
requires  it,  be  worked  as  much  as  twelve  hours  per  day. 

"No.  10.  No  convict  camp  shall  hereafter  be  established  with- 
out the  approval  of  the  board,  and  no  convict  or  convicts  shall  here- 
after be  sent  to  any  camp  or  furnished  to  any  contractor  or  con- 
tractors except  by  order  of  the  board.  Nor  shall  they  or  any  of 
them  be  transferred  from  any  camp  or  employment  except  on  the 
order  of  the  board,  or  in  case  of  sickness,  by  order  of  the  physician. 

"No.  11.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Superintendent  to  keep  the 
board  constantly  informed  of  the  number  of  convicts  within  the 
walls  and  at  the  various  camps,  as  well  those  employed  as  those 
unemployed,  and  of  the  condition  of  the  various  stockades  and 
camps.  And  of  the  cost  of  transportation  of  convicts  from  the 
walls  to  the  various  camps. 

"No.  12.  When  the  board  makes  an  order  for  the  sending  of 
any  convict  from  the  walls  to  any  camp,  or  for  their  transfer  from 
one  camp  to  another  the  order  shall  state  the  number  of  such  con- 
victs, and  the  secretary  shall  furnish  the  Superintendent  with  a 
copy  thereof,  who  shall  proceed  without  delay  to  execute  the  same. 

"No  13.  If  any  contractor  or  convict  laborer  or  his  representa- 
tives shall  endeavor,  either  by  persuasion  or  other  wise  to  obtain 
possession  of  convict  labor  in  violation  of  these  rules,  or  to  have 
them  work  more  than  ten  hours  per  day,  or  unreasonably  hard, 
he  shall  have  such  convicts  as  he  has  taken  from  him,  and  there- 
after shall  be  supplied  with  no  more  such  labor. 

"No.  14.  It  is  hereby  made  the  duty  of  every  employee  at  any 
camp  or  elsewhere,  to  whom  overtures  are  made  by  any  contractor, 
or  any  person  under  the  employ  of  such  contractors,  to  have  such 
convicts  work  for  longer  time  or  harder  than  as  provided  in  these 
rules,  to  at  once  communicate  the  fact  to  the  board,  and  to  the 
Superintendent,  and  if  not  done  it  shall  be  cause  for  his  dismissal. 

"No.  15.  If  at  any  of  the  farms  being  worked  by  the  State 
there  is  not  a  sufficient  force  to  complete  the  crops  now  under 


—  427  — 

way,  working  the  convicts  so  employed  no  more  than  twelve  hours 
per  day,  the  Superintendent  shall  at  once  report  the  fact  to  the 
board,  and  such  additional  number  of  convicts  as  is  necessary  to 
complete  said  crop  at  not  more  than  twelve  hours  per  day  shall 
be  taken  from  the  walls,  or  if  not  within  the  walls  from  camps  of 
contractors  to  be  designated  by  the  board,  and  sent  to  such  farm 
or  farms  for  the  completion  of  such  crop  or  crops.  In  making  re- 
moval from  such  camps  regard  will  be  had  by  the  board  to  the 
treatment  the  convicts  have  hereto  received  thereat.  Promptness 
of  payment  and  the  condition  of  the  various  camps  in  respect  to  the 
comfort  of  the  convicts. 

"No.  16.  As  soon  as  any  money  becomes  due  from  any  con- 
tractor, person,  firm  or  corporation  for  the  hire  of  any  convict  or 
convicts  the  Financial  Agent  shall  demand  payment  thereon,  and 
if  it  be  not  at  once  paid  shall  immediately  report  the  fact  to  the 
board  and  to  the  Superintendent;  whereupon  the  Superintendent 
shall  forthwith  report  to  the  board  the  number  of  convicts  in  the 
camp  or  service  of  such  defaulting  contractor,  and  name  such 
prompt  paying  contractors,  if  any,  as  desire  to  receive  them  or  any 
part  of  them,  stating  the  number  so  desired  by  such  party,  the  loca- 
tion and  condition  of  his  camp  and  the  expense  of  transportation 
of  convicts  thereto.  In  all  such  cases  the  convict  labor  shall  be 
withdrawn  from  the  defaulting  contractor,  and  disposed  of  in  such 
way  as  the  board  may  direct,  and  not  restored  or  replaced  while 
the  default  continues. 

"No.  17.  The  Superintendent  shall  require  that  all  stockades 
and  sleeping  quarters  for  convicts  shall  be  constructed  so  as  to 
exclude  mosquitos  in  summer  and  be  reasonably  warm  in  winter, 
and  with  suitable  and  ample  ventilation;  in  addition  to  being  rea- 
sonably secure  against  escape;  he  shall  also  require  abundance  of 
good  cistern  water  wherever  the  same  may  be  made  available,  and 
when  cistern  water  cannot  be  had,  water  shall  be  furnished  subject 
to  the  approval  of  the  penitentiary  physician. 

"No.  18.  All  convicts  whether  in  the  walls  working  on  State 
account  or  under  lease  shall  be  fed  upon  pure,  wholesome  food; 
and  shall  be  supplied  with  water  of  the  kind  and  character  to  the 
satisfaction  of  the  penitentiary  physician,  whose  duty  it  is  hereby 
made  to  inspect  once  a  month  the  water  of  eacn  convict  camp. 
Convicts  shall  be  fed  on  the  following  diet:  For  breakfast,  flour 
bread,  meat,  molasses,  rice  and  coffee;  for  dinner,  two  kinds  of 
vegetables,  consisting  of  either  Irish  or  sweet  potatoes,  whichever 


42    — 

is  in  season,  beans  or  peas,  turnips  or  turnip-greens,  meat  and  corn- 
bread  and  molasses  if  desired,  water  and  milk  (if  milk  can  be  had 
without  expense) ;  for  supper,  biscuits,  meat,  molasses,  coffee,  pota- 
toes and  rice. 

"No.  19.  Any  violation -or  attempted  violation  of  any  of  these 
rules  by  any  employee  or  other  person  shall  be  cause  of  removal 
of  such  person  or  employee. 

"No.  20.  These  rules  shall  be  read  by  the  Superintendent,  or 
some  person  delegated  by  him  to  do  so,  at  the  various  convict 
camps  to  the  employees  and  convicts,  and  a  copy  of  the  same  shall 
be  posted  up  in  a  conspicuous  place  in  each  camp,  and  it  is  made 
the  duty  of  all  such  persons,  whether  employees  or  convicts,  to 
report  any  violation  or  attempted  violation  of  them  to  some  mem- 
ber of  the  board;  and  no  employee  shall  be  discharged,  and  no 
convict  punished  for  making  such  report. 

"No.  21.  Every  contractor  for  the  hire  of  convicts  shall  be 
furnished  a  copy  of  these  rules,  and  it  is  made  his  duty  to  report 
every  violation  or  attempted  violation  of  any  of  them,  of  which  he 
may  have  knowledge;  and  in  the  event  of  his  failure  to  do  so,  all 
convicts  in  his  employ  shall  be  withdrawn  from  him  and  no  more 
furnished  to  him. 

"No.  22.  On  Sunday  each  convict  shall  be  required  to  be 
cleanly  dressed,  and  to  observe  the  Sabbath  by  attending  services, 
if  any.  If  no  services  are  held  at  the  camp,  then  by  reading  or 
other  amusements  that  are  not  harmful  or  vicious.  No  boxing, 
gambling,  cock  fighting  or  other  like  sports  shall  be  allowed  within 
the  walls  or  committed  on  Sunday,  either  by  the  convicts  or  guards 
or  other  penitentiary  employees,  and  any  violation  of  this  rule  shall 
subject  the  wardens  or  guards  or  other  employees  to  dismissal,  and 
the  Superintendent  is  charged  with  its  faithful  execution. 

"No.  23.  All  convicts  shall  be  conveyed  from  the  counties 
where  sentenced  to  the  penitentiary  by  the  warden,  acting  as  trans- 
portation agent,  and  no  allowance  shall  be  made  to  any  other  pel- 
son  for  services  for  such  transportation. 

"No.  24.  No  contractor  for  the  hire  of  convicts,  or  any  of  his 
employees  or  representatives,  shall  curse  any  of  such  convicts  or 
abuse  them  by  any  offensive  epithets,  whether  profane  or  not,  and 
any  violation  of  this  rule  shall  be  cause  for  annulling  the  contract 
and  withdrawing  the  convicts  from  the  contractor." 

Q.  Colonel  Monroe,  was  there  any  contractor  that  had  charge 
of  convicts,  or  had  the  right  to  the  labor  of  convicts  in  Lonoke 
count v? 


—  429  — 

A.     None  that  I  know  of,  sir. 

Q.     Well,  do  you  know  what  camp  there  was  in  Lonoke  county? 

A.  There  was  no  camp  there  except  the  contractor's  camp  that 
was  working  for  the  State. 

Q.  That  farm  was  rented  by  the  State  and  worked  on  the 
State's  account? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  true  that  there  was  a  contractor  in  Lonoke 
county  that  had  convicts  or  who  was  doing  farming  with  convicts 
on  anybody's  land? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Colonel  Monroe,  do  you  know  personally 
that  there  was  no  room  for  complaint  about  the  treatment  of  those 
convicts,  by  Governor  Davis,  at  any  time? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  what  Governor  Davis  heard  or  seen 
about  the  treatment  of  the  convicts. 

Q.  You  don't  know  then  that  these  interviews  and  these 
speeches  were  made  by  him  without  reason  or  cause? 

A.     No,  I  have  no  way  of  knowing  that. 

Q.  Now  I  want  to  ask  you,  the  rules  6  and  7  referred  to  there 
in  regard  to  the  whipping  and  treatment  of  convicts  and  the 
enforcement  of  the  other  rules  that  were  prescribed  by  your  board, 
do  you  know  if  those  rules  were  fully  complied  with  in  the  dif- 
ferent camps — I  mean  do  you  know  this  personally? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  personally.  I  have  no  way  of  knowing  it  per- 
sonally, Mr.  Whitley,  for  I  could  not  be  at  all  the  camps  and  see 
whether  they  were  being  carried  out  or  not. 

Q.  Through  what  avenues  did  you  have  to  receive  this  infor- 
mation, for  hearing  of  it? 

A.     The  treatment  of  the  convicts? 

Q.     Yes,   sir? 

A.  There  is  simply  a  rule  to  the  effect  that  the  Superintendent 
is  required  to  report  it. 

Q.     The  Superintendent  is  required  to  report  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  monthly. 

Q.  The  rules,  I  believe,  require  the  Superintendent  to  make 
a  monthly  report  of  it? 

A.     The  rules,  I  believe,  require  a  monthly  report. 

Q.  That  report  then  had  to  come  through  the  contractors  to- 
the  Superintendent? 

A.     The  rules  do  not  say  that  that  I  know  of. 


—  430  — 

Q.     How  were  these  reports  to  come  to  the  board? 

A.     I  just  said  from  the  Superintendent. 

Q.  Now  by  what  means  did  the  Superintendent  have  any  in- 
formation as  to  how  the  convicts  were  treated — personally? 

A.     I  don't  know  that;  I  never  served  as  Superintendent. 

Q.     You  don't  know  that? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  it  is  the  duty  of  the  board  to  ascertain 
how  the  convicts  were  treated? 

A.  The  rules  require  the  Superintendent  to  make  monthly 
reports  to  the  board,  Mr.  Whitley. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  only  means  by  which  you  have  for  receiv- 
ing any  information  as  to  their  treatment? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  believe  since  the  rules  state  that  the  contractor  or  parties 
in  charge  of  those  convicts,  and  the  convicts  themselves,  has  to 
furnish  some  member  of  the  board  information  as  to  their  treat- 
ment, in  the  way  of  feeding  or  being  fed  and  whipped? 

A.     I  don't  know,  I  think  it  says  any  member  of  the  board. 

Q.  Any  member  of  the  board,  well  the  rule  says  that  if 
any  convict  is  being  mistreated,  why  he  shall  furnish  or  the  officer 
or  man  in  charge  shall  furnish  some  member  of  the  board  with  in- 
formation; now  do  you  think  it  likely  or  probable  that  a  convict 
whose  letters  and  everything  shall  pass  through  the  inspection  of 
the  officers  in  charge,  that  he  will  have  the  opportunity  of  inform- 
ing the  member  or  members  of  the  board  of  his  mistreatment? 

A.     I  rather  not  think  he  would. 

Q.  Then  the  information  to  be  received  by  the  board  of  the 
treatment  of  the  different  men  comes  through  the  officer  or  man 
in  charge  or  in  interest  in  it,  is  not  that  true? 

A.  Oh,  he  has  got  to  report  to  the  officer  in  whose  charge 
they  are  placed,  and  through  that  officer  to  the  board. 

Q.  Now,  if  the  convicts  at  any  camp  are  being  mistreated, 
those  rules  requiring  their  treatment  and  punishment  and  their 
being  fed, — if  those  rules  are  violated  do  you  think  it  probable 


—  431  — 

that  the  parties  in  interest  or  in  charge  of  them  would  report  their 
violation? 

A.  I  can't  state  about  that,  Mr.  Whitley,  whether  they  would 
or  not. 

Q.  The  parties  that  are  guilty  of  the  violation  of  the  rules 
who  are  in  charge  would  not  likely  report  the  violation,  would 
they? 

A.     I  don't  know,  sir.     I  can't  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Well,  I  will  ask  you  if  you  do  not  think  it  a  fact  that  the 
information  has  been  greatly  censored  before  it  reached  the  board 
in  reference  to  their  treatment? 

A.  I  have  no  reason  to  think  that  either.  I  do  not  believe 
that  the  warden  or  the  officer  in  charge  of  the  convicts  would  lis- 
ten to  every  little  report  brought  to  him  by  a  convict  or  some  sub- 
ordinate. I  believe  that  each  man  employed  to  take  charge  of  con- 
victs are  above  anything  of  that  kind.  They  would  not  listen  to 
those  little  tales  floating  around.  If  there  was  any  violation  of 
the  rules  we  have  men  in  as  wardens  that  would  make  reports 
of  the  violation,  and  would  not  keep  men  of  that  kind  employed 
in  charge  knowing  that  they  violated  the  rules  themselves,  while 
in  there. 

Q.  What  you  state  is  in  regard  to  the  information  brought  to 
the  board  where  the  state  convicts  are  worked,  but  what  I  am 
more  directly  inquiring  into  is  these  contractors  that  you  have 
hired  these  convicts  to  out  here? 

A.  Those  contractors,  Mr.  Whitley,  we  furnish  wardens  to 
them.  The  state  puts  a  warden  with  the  contractor;  it  employs 
the  warden;  the  contractor  has  nothing  to  do  with  that. 

Q.  Now,  I  will  ask  you  if  you  know  that  those  convicts  have 
not  been  fed  as  Gov.  Davis  has  stated  in  that  interview,  I  believe, 
or  supposed  interview,  at  any  time? 

A.     Please  state  your  question  again. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  state  convicts  have  not  been  fed 
as  Gov.  Davis  is  supposed  to  have  stated  in  that  interview,  at  any 
time? 


—  432  — 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  as  I  get  at  your  question;  what  you 
are  trying  to  drive  at,  Mr.  WMtley 

Q.  I  believe  in  that  supposed  interview, — at  least  a  resolu- 
tion was  passed  stating  that  Gov.  Davis  had  said  that  they  had  been 
fed  on  greasy  meat  and  half-cooked  cornbread  and  cabbage,  and 
fed  out  in  the  broiling  sun, — you  remember  those  statements? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  I  am  asking  you  if  you  know  that  that  has  not  been 
the  case? 

A.    Well,  I  can't  say  that  I  do  know  it. 

Q.  Well  then,  if  Davis  made  that  statemnt  in  that  interview 
you  do  not  know  that  he  did  not  tell  the  truth,  do  you? 

A.     No,  I  can't  say  that  he  did  not. 

Q.  Now,  in  the  treatment  of  Rector  and  his  exhibiting  of  his 
photograph  around  over  the  state, — do  you  know  that  that  man 
was  not  treated  as  Davis  said  he  was  treated? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  don't  know  it. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  but  that  he  told  the  truth  about 
that,  do  you? 

A.     No,  I  don't  know  that  either. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  contractor  having  forfeited  their 
contract  by  reason  of  the  violation  of  those  rules? 

A.    I  haven't  heard  of  any. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  those  rules  have  not  been  violated  by  the 
contractors,  or  any  of  them? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  don't  know  that. 

Q.  Now,  Col.  Monroe,  the  board  endeavored  to  discharge 
their  duties  in  the  prescribing  of  those  rules,  and  I  am  satisfied 
acted  in  good  faith,  you  prescribed  the  rules,  and  that  is  as  far 
as  you  went  with  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  don't  know  whether  those  rules  have  been 
strictly  enforced  or  not? 

A.  No,  sir;  have  no  way  of  knowing  that.  I  stated  a  while 
ago  that  I  couldn't  visit  all  the  camps  all  over  the  State  to  see 
whether  they  were  being  complied  with  or  not. 


—  433  — 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  With  reference  to  the  contractors  in 
Lonoke  County  furnishing  convicts  to  individual  farmers,  you  stat- 
ed that  that  condition  did  not  exist  in  Lonoke  County — there  was 
no  such  a  contractor  down  there? 

A.  We  had  no  contractors  in  Lonoke  County;  the  State 
worked  some  convicts  down  there. 

Q.  Did  such  a  condition  exist  elsewhere;  did  you  have  con- 
tractors elsewhere  that  were  letting  them  out — elsewhere?  The 
point,  Colonel,  that  I  want  to  know  is,  was  there  a  contractor  any- 
where that  sub-let  the  convicts  to  individual  farmers? 

A.  If  there  was  I  did  not  know  it.  No,  sir;  none  that  I 
know  of. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Funk)  Col.  Monroe,  you  are  the  chairman  of  the 
Penitentiary  Board? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  chairman  of  that  committee,  was  there  ever  any  com- 
plaints filed  with  you  as  chairman  about  the  violation  of  those 
rules? 

A.  No,  sir;  none  at  all.  Statements  of  that  kind  are  usually 
filed  with  the  Secretary  of  State,  who  is  the  secretary  of  the  board. 
Nobody  ever  filed  any  before  me.  They  were  not  handed  in  to  me 
before  the  board. 

Q.  Well,  if  they  had  been  filed  with  the  secretary  wouldn't 
it  have  been  apt  to  have  been  called  to  your  attention? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  would  be  apt  to  call  the  board's  attention  to 
it  in  meeting  before  the  board. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Now,  Colonel,  that  we  have  disposed 
of  that  question, — do  you  remember  that  the  rules  direct  that  no 
convict  shall  be  whipped  on  the  naked  back;  now,  is  it  not  a  fact 
to  avoid  violating  the  rule  or  evade  the  rule  that  convicts  should 
not  be  whipped  on  the  naked  back  or  body,  that  the  wardens  would 
place  a  piece  of  mosquito  bar  over  their  backs,  and  didn't  that  infor- 
mation come  to  your  knowledge — come  to  the  board? 

A.     Not  to  my  knowledge.     I  don't  remember  of  it. 


—  434  — 

Q.  (  You  don't  remember  any  such  information  as  that? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  heard  it  talked  generally  about,  but  if  there  was 
ever  any  complaint  of  that  kind  before  the  board  I  don't  remember 
it. 

Q.     You  heard  that  talked  generally? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  But  not  in  the  board  meeting;  not  in  an  official 
way  at  all  that  I  remember  of. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  the  board  at  any  time  visited  the  convict 
camp  down  here  at  any  time  to  ascertain? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  visited  them  a  few  times.  I  went  in  company 
with  Gov.  Davis  a  time  or  two;  and  I  went  in  company  with  some 
other  members  of  the  board;  I  don't  just  remember  who,  several 
times. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  After  the  adoption  of  these  rules  by 
the  Penitentiary  Board,  did  Gov.  Davis,  as  a  member  of  said  board, 
ever  report  to  the  board  any  information  about  mistreatment  of  the 
convicts  ? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  After  the  adoption  of  the  rules  was  there  ever  a  case  of 
mistreatment  reported  to  the  board  at  board  meeting? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Well,  if  it  had  been  would  it  have  been  investigated? 

A.     Certainly  it  would;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Did  Gov.  Davis  assign  any  reasons  for  not 
voting  for  those  rules,  do  you  know  what  his  reasons  were  for  not 
voting  for  them? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that  the  governor  assigned  any. 

Q.     You  don't  remember  what  his  reasons  were? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Didn't  he  give  any  reasons  for  not  voting  for  those  rules? 

A.     I  don't  remember. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  Were  those  rules  made,  Colonel,  before 
or  after  the  Rector  incident  over  there, — the  taking  of  the  picture? 

A.  I  think  it  was  after  the  Rector  matter.  It  was  exhibited 
at  the  time  the  resolution  and  rules  were  put,  I  think.  I  don't  re- 
member the  dates  exactly,  but  I  think  it  was  exhibited  then. 


-  435  — 

Q.  (By  Col.  Murphy)  Do  you  know  whether  the  governor 
liad  a  wood  cut  made  of  that  picture  or  not? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  had  it  then  published  and  printed 
with  Stackhouse's  testimony  appended  to  it  in  different  papers  in 
this  county — in  the  Memphis  Commercial  Appeal  notably  and  the 
St.  Louis  Post  Dispatch? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  this  man  Rector  die  before  or  after  the  present  board 
went  in  office, — did  he  die  before  Janury,  1901,  while  Gov.  Davis 
was  Attorney  General,  or  after  he  became  Governor,  or  do  you 
know  about  that? 

A.     I  don't  know,  Colonel. 

Q.  Now,  you  were  asked  if  you  knew  that  he  had  not  been 
whipped  in  the  manner  in  which  Gov.  Davis  said;  now  I  want  to 
ask  you  if  you  know  individually  about  the  human  constitution, 
the  results  of  living  up  on  it, — if  it  would  be  possible  to  stand 
this, — or  whether  it  would  be  possible  for  a  man  whose  body  has 
been  whipped  so  he  died  from  it  to  survive  until  he  would  get 
into  that  skeleton-like  condition? 

A.  No,  I, — Well  I  would  rather  think  not.  I  have  information 
from  other  sources  as  to  what  he  died  with,  but  that  is  all  I  know 
about  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Colonel,  your  answer  to  that  question 
is  just  an  impression  of  your  own  isn't  it? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  sir;  he  asked  me  that  and  I  answered. 

Q.  Now,  I  will  ask  you  if  such  consequences  as  that  Rector 
incident  were  transpiring  throughout  the  state  of  Arkansas  under 
its  present  management  then  if  you  think  it  should  have  been 
published  and  a  check  put  to  it? 

A.  Not  until  after  it  had  been  investigated  and  the  truth 
of  the  matter  ascertained. 

Q.     I  say  if  such  consequences  had  been? 

A.  Well,  I  answer  just  like  I  did;  I  will  state  that  I  don't  think 
it  should  have  been  published  to  the  world  without  first  making  an 


—  436  — 

investigation  about  the  facts — make  an  investigation  first  to  ascer- 
tain the  facts  of  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Was  the  expenses  of  procuring  this 
wood  cut  of  this  photograph  paid  by  the  State  out  of  the  Governor's 
contingent  fund? 

A.     I  am  not  able  to  answer  that  question,  Mr.  Chairman. 

DR.  J.  R.  WALTERS,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  testifies 
as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Col.  Murphy)  Now,  doctor,  I  wish  you  would  look  at 
that  skeleton  picture  of  James  P.  Rector — read  the  inscription  on 
each  side  of  the  engraving  and  then  examine  the  picture. 

Mr.  Whitley — Colonel  Murphy,  do  you  introduce  him  as  an 
an  expert  witness? 

Colonel  Murphy — That  is  what  I  do. 

Q.  Now,  doctor,  if  that  is  the  picture  of  James  F.  Rector,  for- 
merly a  convict  in  the  State  Penitentiary,  would  he  have  ever 
reached  that  physical  condition  from  being  beaten  before  death — 
before  he  died? 

A.     Well,  you  just  want  my  opinion? 

Q.     You  are  a  doctor? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Of  course  I  can  state  this.  I  would  not  say 
that  he  could;  I  would  say  that  he  could  not.  If  he  had  died  from 
being  beaten  he  would  either  have  died  from  shock  at  the  time, 
or  reactionary  fever  following  it,  or  if  not  from  that,  from  sepsis. 

(Reads  report  in  the  paper — "This  is  taken 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Now  would  you  say  it  was  or  that  it 
would  be  impossible — you  wouldn't  say  that  it  was  impossible  for  a 
man  to  have  been  starved  and  whipped  into  that  condition,  would 
you,  and  still 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  might  be  starved  into  it,  but  I  don't  think  he 
could  possibly  be  whipped  into  it.  "tDf  course  you  could  starve  a 
man  into  that  condition. 

Q.  You  would  not  say  that  that  man  was  not  starved  into 
that  condition? 


—  437  — 

A.  I  can't  say  that,  no,  sir.  Where  a  man  starves  he  usually 
dies  from  some  stomach  trouble  before  he  even  gets  to  that  condi- 
tion. If  he  would  have  starved  to  death — I  don't  believe  that  a 
man  would,  but  I  don't  say  that  it  would  be  impossible  for  him 
not  to,  but  I  say  it  is  possible,  but  not  probable  at  all. 

"My  name  is  Jesse  Stackhouse.  I  was  sent  to  the  penitentiary 
from  Clay  County  for  forgery.  I  was  pardoned  by  Gov.  Jones  the 
30th  day  of  June,  1900.  I  was  confined  at  the  Barton  camp,  near 
England.  I  knew  a  convict  while  I  was  there  named  Jim  Rector, 
sent  up  from  Clay  County  for  larceny.  I  saw  Rector  whipped 
more  than  once  at  Clear-  Lake  and  England  camps  by  Tyre,  the 
riding  boss  at  England,  and  Mosley,  the  deputy  warden,  at  Clear 
Lake.  One  of  these  whippings  I  considered  excessive.  They  hit 
him  seventeen  licks  on  the  bare  body.  This  excessive  whipping 
occurred  one  Sunday  morning,,  and  we  were  told  to  bathe  in  the 
lake  after  Rector  was  whipped,  and  I  saw  the  blood  running  down 
his  legs  and  sometimes  dropping  on  the  ground.  I  had  seen  Rec- 
tor before  he  went  to  this  farm  and  he  was  apparently  a  well-made, 
healthy  man.  When  I  left  the  farm  he  was  very  much  emaciated 
and  poor.  He  was  whipped  for  not  plowing  the  middles  out  of 
his  cotton  rows  properly  the  day  before,  and  I  do  not  believe  he 
had  the  physical  strength  to  hold  the  plow  steady.  I  did  not 
see  deceased  Rector  after  he  went  back  to  Clay  county  after 
he  was  pardoned.  My  opinion  is  that  Rector's  emaciated  condition 
was  caused  from  lack  of  sufficient  food — I  mean  by  that  I  do  not 
think  he  got  enough  to  eat.  We  had  boiled  bulk  pork  three  times 
a  day,  and  for  dinner  we  had  cold  water,  cornbread  and  stock 
peas.  For  breakfast  we  sometimes  had  molasses.  Occasionally 
we  would  have  flour  bread  for  breakfast.  I  think  Rector  was 
about  forty  years  old,  and  think  if  he  had  been  fed  properly  and 
not  overworked  he  would  have  got  along  all  right." 


—  438  — 

"LASHING   OF   CONVICTS. 
"Arkansas  Governor  and  His  Crusade  for  a  Change. 

"The  Gathering  of  Evidence. 

"The  Photograph  of  Convict  Rector,  Who  Wasted  Away  and  Died 
as  a  Result,  It  Is  Alleged,  of  Whipping 

and  Insufficient  Food. 
"Arkansas  Bureau,  The  Commercial  Appeal,  Capital  Hotel  Building. 

"Little  Rock,  Ark.,  August  16,  1901. 

"Governor  Davis  certainly  cannot  be  accused  of  lack  of  earnest- 
ness in  his  purpose  to  bring  about  a  change  in  the  methods  of 
handling  convicts  in  Arkansas.  His  devotion  to  and  zeal  in  the 
cause  have  already  led  him  into  conflicts  which  can  hardly  be 
pleasant  to  him,  yet  he  betrays  no  symptoms  of  abandoning  his 
purpose  of  modifying  his  methods.  This  much  without  reference 
to  the  correctness  of  his  premises  or  conclusions  in  every  instance, 
is  a  matter  which  time  and  the  courts  must  decide.  The  Governor 
is  proceeding  carefully  in  the  collection  of  evidence  to  sustain  his 
contention."  (Then  comes  the  skeleton  picture  with  this  descrip- 
tion in  the  lower  right  hand  corner:)  ("James  F.  Rector,  of  Clay 
county,  who  was  released  from  pen  and  died  soon  after  reaching 
home.  He  was  scarred  in  a  horrible  manner  from  having  been 
beaten.")  "A  few  days  since  he  procured  a  photograph  of  Convict 
Rector,  as  he  appeared  shortly  before  his  death,  and  taken  for  the 
purpose  of  showing  the  effects  of  the  severe  whippings  given  him 
by  guards  on  the  farm.  He  has  further  taken  steps  to  have  pre- 
served the  testimony  of  witnesses  before  the  Penitentiary  Board 
at  its  recent  inquiry  into  the  alleged  violence  of  these  guards 
toward  convicts  in  their  charge.  Following  is  the  testimony  of  one 
of  them:" 

GEORGE  W.  MURPHY,  being  sworn,  at  the  request  of  the 
committee,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Now,  Colonel,  just  state  the  reasons  for 
your  prescribing  those  rules? 

A.  Well,  information  came  to  me,  and  I  suppose  to  the  other 
members  of  the  board,  that  the  men  were  being  overworked,  and 


—  439  — 

in  one  or  two  instances  it  was  stated  that  the  contractors  under- 
took to  influence  the  wardens  to  give  them  excessive  work. 

Q.     You  say  a  contractor — 

A.  You  see  a  contractor  tinder  the  law  is  not  given  over  the- 
working  of  the  convicts,  we  are  just  to  furnish  him  certain  labor, 
and  a  warden  is  sent  along  with  the  convicts  and  has  the  govern- 
ing of  the  convicts,  he  takes  and  works  them  for  the  contractor; 
the  contractor  has  no  right  to  set  the  amount  of  work  or  diminish 
the  quantity  of  work,  the  hours,  the  time  and  quantity — the  warden 
is  just  furnished  him  with  convicts  and  does  certain  work.  Now 
we  had  heard  that  some  of  them  were  being  worked  too  much 
and  we  heard  that  some  of  the  farms  were  scant  of  labor — that  the 
crops  were  too  large  for  cultivation  by  reason  of  the  labor — from 
the  number  of  convicts  we  had  on  hand,  and  there  was  some  com- 
plaint that  the  convicts  on  some  of  those  places  were  being  worked 
overtime,  and  so  we  made  those  rules. 

Q.     Prescribing  the  duties  that  they  should  have? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  you  have  a  rule  there  preventing  whipping  on  the 
naked  back;  did  you  hear  that  that  treatment  had  been  imposed 
upon  them? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir;  up  to  that  time  I  understood  that  it  was  being 
done,  and  it  is  even  stated  now  that  some  of  the  convicts  are  so 
incorrigible  that  you  frequently  can't  do  anything  with  them,  and 
I  am  of  the  opinion  that  this  is  true;  some  of  the  convicts  are 
harder  to  manage  I  find  at  every  camp,  and  since  we  have  had  these 
rules  occasionally  you  will  find  one  that  you  can't  do  anything 
with. 

Q.  Now  you  don't  know  that  that  man  Rector  was  not  starved 
into  this  emaciated  condition,  do  you? 

A.  Well,  I  will  tell  you,  I  hardly  thing  it  possible  that  he  was 
singled  out  to  be  starved,  and  I  don't  see  how  he  could  have  starved 
on  the  treatment  there  unless  the  others  were  starved  too.- 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  it  was  impossible  for  a'  man  to  be  singled 
out  for  anv  inhuman  treatment — 


—  440  — 

A.  I  would  say  that  I  do  not  think  it  possible  in  this  age  where 
there  is  any  civilized  humanity  in  the  management  to  single  out 
and  starve  a  man  to  death  if  they  only  wanted  to  do  it  for  a  pun- 
ishment— 

Q.  Would  you  say  then  that  it  was  impossible  for  a  man  to 
like  some  other  man  or  convict  better  than  some  other  one  convict? 

A.     Oh,  no,  sir;  I  don't  say  that. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  it  would  be  impossible  for  one  convict 
to  stand  in  better  favor  with  the  management  than  another? 

A.     As  a  matter  of  course,  no. 

Q.  Then  if  a  convict  does  not  stand  in  the  favor  of  the  guard 
and  manager,  or  the  management,  I  mean  the  men  in  control,  then 
don't  you  think  he  would  be  more  or  less  subject  to  partial  treat- 
ment? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  expect  there  would  be  a  great  deal  in  human 
nature-;  I  would  be  inclined  myself  to  treat  a  man  who  was  incor- 
rigible in  his  nature  with  more  severity  than  one  who  was  less  so. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  think  that  this  man  Rector  was  starved 
into  this  emaciated  condition? 

A.  Oh,  I  was  not  present  every  day,  and  that  was  before  I  be- 
came a  member  of  the  board;  he  died  according — well,  it  seems 
to  be  conceded  that  he  died  previously — that  he  died  in  the  sum- 
mer, died  in  the  summer  of  1900,  I  think  it  was,  and  of  course  I 
came  in  as  a  member  of  the  board  after  that;  but  I  can't  get  at 
how  he  could  have  starved  to  death;  there  is  no  doubt  about  that. 
I  want  to  say  that  in  addition,  that  I  never  heard — since  this 
has  eluded  me — at  any  time  that  Mr.  Altheimer  had  ever  offered 
or  ever  stated  to  anybody  that  he  would  sell  that  Altheimer  place 
for  $75,000.  And  I  want  to  say  that  the  only  offer  that  he  ever 
made  to  the  board  was  emphatically  at  $87,500.  I  want  to  say 
that  the  motion  to  purchase  it  was  at  that  offer. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)    Made  by  whom — that  .motion? 

A.     That  motion  was  made  by  Governor  Davis. 

Q-  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Does  your  record  show  the  motion  there? 
Who  made  it? 


—  441  — 

A.  This  record  does  not — the  motion  there  is  not  contained  in 
the  record.  The  $87,500  offer  was  taken  up,  but  before  it  was 
voted  on  Altheimer  came  in  and  he  was  asked  if  he  couldn't  take 
less — I  believe  that  was  now  not  a  minute  before  the  vote  was 
taken  on  it— and  he  said  he  would  not  and  could  not,  and  so  we 
voted  on  it,  and  three  of  us  voted  against  it,  and  that  proposition 
was  never  before  the  board  after  that  in  any  shape  or  form.  The 
$87,500  proposition  was  the  only  one  and  Altheimer  was  emphatic 
when  interrogated  by  the  Governor  before  the  committee  if  he 
could  not  take  less  than  $87,500,  and  said  he  could  not,  that  that 
was  the  very  least  sum  he  would  take. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Stockard)  Colonel,  was  that  the  last  meeting? 

A.  It  was  the  last  meeting  at  which  that  Altheimer  farm  was 
ever  considered.  There  never  was  another  offer.  When  these 
other  offers  came  in  there  I  went  to  the  Secretary  of  State  to  see 
that  offer — see  if  it  was  there — still  before  the  board,  and  he  told 
me  that  it  was  not;  that  Mr.  Altheimer  had  come  and  taken  it  out, 
or  at  any  rate  it  could  not  be  found. 

Q.  Did  you  know  that  Altheimer  ever  offered  to  take  a  less 
price  for  that  farm? 

A.  To  my  personal  knowledge  I  did  not.  My  information  is, 
though,  that  he  has  offered  it  to  others  for  a  great  deal  less. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  You  know  that  he  swore  here  that  he 
said  that  he  had  offered  it  for  $75,000? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  know  he  said  that;  I  think  he  said  he  told  Gov- 
ernor Davis  or  he  said  he  did  tell  Governor  Davis  that  he  would 
take  $75,000  for  it,  but  Governor  Davis  didn't  tell  us.  That  is,  he 
didn't  tell  me,  and  he  didn't  speak  of  it  in  the  board  when  we 
voted  upon  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Did  Mr.  Altheimer  state  that  this  offer 
he  made  subsequent  to  the  matter,  or  which  was  his  written  offer, 
was  presented? 

A.  No,  sir;  Mr.  Altheimer  said  that  Governor  Davis  had  asked 
him  about  it  and  that  then  his  son  went  and  fixed  it,  and  that  Gov- 
ernor Davis  came  out  and  told  him  that  we  didn  t  want  it,  and  that 
that  was  the  very  time  that  we  had  voted  upon  it. 


—  442  — 

Q.  Didn't  you  understand  him  to  say  that  it  was  at  another 
meeting  since  that  time? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  don't  see  how  it  could  be,  since  it  was  never 
discussed  at  any  subsequent  meeting. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  Colonel  Murphy,  just  for  information, 
did  you  know  that  Mr.  Altheimer  ever  offered  the  property  to  Gov- 
ernor Davis  on  this  basis? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  that.  I  can't  say  what  I  don't 
know.  I  could  tell  you  in  this  way — I  could  go  on  and  tell  you 
occurrences,  and  let  you  draw  your  own  conclusions,  but  I  don't 
know  it  positively. 

Q.  Well,  Colonel  Murphy,  what  I  wanted  to  know  is  just  the 
truth  about  it? 

A.     That  is  all  I  can  do,  Mr.  Stockard,  is  to  tell  you  the  facts. 

Q.  Well,  Colonel,  that  is  what  1  want  in  such  matters  as  those. 
I  don't  want  to  know  anything  but — 

A.  No,  I  don't  tell  you  any  hearsay  at  all;  I  am  too  good  a 
lawyer  for  that;  but  if  you  ask  me  for  the  hearsay  I  can  give  it 
to  you. 

Q.  Well,  Colonel  Murphy,  I  don't  want  to  shut  out  anything; 
if  you  know  anything  about  this  business  I  want  it  all  to  come  out? 

A.  I  did  not  hear  any  conversations  between  them.  All  that 
I  know  you  know  with  the  exception  that  you  got  it  through  me. 
I  don't  know  anything  about  it  only  that  the  farm  was  offered  to 
the  State  for  a  convict  farm.  If  it  is  true  that  Governor  Davis  told 
him  he  could  sell  it  to  the  board  for  $75,000  and  he  did  not  try  to 
do  so,  but  tried  to  tell  it  to  the  board  for  $87,500,  why  you  just 
draw  your  deductions;  that  is  not  for  me  to  judge.  He  never  did 
offer  to  sell  it  to  the  board  for  $75,000;  the  offer  that  was  made  to 
the  board  was  $87,500,  and  I  swear  to  that — 

Q.  Let  me  understand  you,  Colonel;  I  want  to  know  if  Gov- 
ernor Davis  ever  offered  to  sell  this  farm  to  the  board  for  $75,000? 

A.     No,  sir;  it  was  $87,500. 

Q.     It  was  not  $75,000? 

A.     No,  he  did  not. 


—  443  -  - 

Q.  I  want  to  understand  this  thing.  Now  that  offer  that  was 
called  up  in  board  meeting  was  whether  you  would  accept  the  offer 
of  Altheimer — that  was  $87,500;  now  you  also  testified  that  you  did 
not  know  that  Altheimer  had  ever  offered  to  sell  for  a  less  price? 

A.     I  don't  know  that  there  was  ever  but  the  one  offer  made. 
Q.     At  any  other  board  meeting — 

A.  No,  sir;  that  $75,000  proposition  never  was  in  a  board  meet- 
ing. 

Q.  Then  what  I  want  to  get  at,  Colonel  Murphy,  if  it  was  ever 
offered  to  the  board  for  less  than  $75,000  in  a  board  meeting? 

A.  I  have  sworn  that  he  never  offered  it  for  less  than  $87,500 
in  any  board  meeting.  And  now  whether  Altheimer  told  the  truth 
when  he  said  he  had  told  Governor  Davis  that  he  would  take  $75,000 
for  it,  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  What  I  want  to  know  is  whether  it  was  ever  offered  in 
board  meeting  after  that? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  was  never  offered  in  a  board  meeting  at  less 
than  $87,500,  and  at  that  price  the  vote  was  taken. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Did  Mr.  Altheimer  or  Governor  Davis 
submit  that  proposition? 

A.  Now  just  how  it  got  into  the  secretary's  hands  I  don't  know, 
or  who  did  the  filing  of  the  papers  with  the  secretary.  Mr.  Altheim- 
er swore  that  he  delivered  the  price  in  writing  to  the  secretary 
didn't  he,  on  the  stand  here?  I  think  that  he  did,  but  I  wouldn't  be 
positive  about  that. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  I  want  to  ask  you  one  more  thing,  Col- 
onel Murphy,  about  a  statement,  you  started  to  tell  it  here  the  other 
night,  and  that  is  if  Altheimer  ever  attempted  to  bribe  you,  and 
now  I  want  you  to  tell  us  how  it  was  done? 

A.  There  is  a  little  bit  of  delicacy  about  that  matter,  but  you 
asked  me  and  I  will  state  it;  nothing  shall  deter  me  from  doing — 
well,  it  was  a  very  ingenious  thing,  and  the  circumstances  were 
very  favorable  to  it.  I  had  gone  down  there  at  his  especial  request, 
after  the  other  members  went  to  look  over  it,  and  we  rode  around 


—  444  — 

considerably  and  finally  got  up  to  his  house,  there  where  one  of  his 
tenants  was  and  we  got  down  and  took  dinner.  At  his  table  we 
were  refreshing  ourselves  by  eating  and  among  other  things  Mr. 
Altheimer  got  to  talking  about  his  daughter  being  a  singer,  and 
we  were  talking  along  in  a  friendly  sort  of  a  way,  and  about  her 
singing,  and  about  something  that  occurred  up  at  French  Lick 
Springs,  and  that  my  daughter  had  heard  her  sing,  and  he  went 
on  to  say  that  she  wanted  to  go  to  Europe  and  spend  two  or  three 
years  over  there  and  finish  up  her  musical  education.  I  very  inno- 
cently said  to  him  that  I  had  a  daughter  too  who  was  somewhat 
proficient,  or  supposed  to  be,  in  music,  and  we  went  on  to  dilate 
on  their  qualities,  and  that  my  daughter  had  spoken  of  his  daugh- 
ter, she  had  heard  her  sing  and  I  said  it  is  singular  too  that  we 
get  together  and  somewhat  in  the  same  fix,  for  I  have  for  a  long 
time  wished  to  send  my  daughter  to  Europe  to  finish  her  educa- 
tion, but  I  have  abandoned  the  idea,  for  I  am  too  poor,  and  never 
expect  to  be  otherwise,  and  then  he  said,  "Well,  I  wouldn't  say  any- 
thing wrong,  but  if  I  sell  this  farm  to  the  State  they  could  both  go/' 
At  that  I  said  nothing;  I  thought  silence  was  the  best  rebuke;  my 
hesitation  seemed  to  create  the  impression  in  his  mind  that— I 
don't  know  what — but  it  was  that  he  did  not  think  I  repudiated  it. 
Well,  I  stayed  there  a  while  and  when  the  train  came  I  came  on 
home.  He  came  into  my  office  the  next  morning  and  said  that  they 
were  going  to  have  that  place  up  and  pass  on  it  in  board  meeting; 
I  said,  Mr.  Altheimer,  I  don't  want  that  place.  He  said,  you  won't 
vote  for  it.  I  said,  no,  sir;  I  cannot.  That  is  all  there  is  to  it.  I 
regret  that  I  hinted  at  that  at  all  the  other  night,  and  I  should 
never  have  done  it,  but  he  put  me  out. 

Q.     You  regarded  then  that  you  were  offered  a  bribe? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Well  now  it  looks  to  me  like  that  might  have  been 
it.  It  was  a  mighty  close  approach  to  it.  Now  I  regret,  gentlemen, 
that  I  was  asked  that  question,  because  I  did  not  really  want  to 
tell  it. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Stockard)  I  want  you  to  tell  it,  Colonel  Murphy. 

A.  It  was  certainly  an  offer  of  something  that  would  have 
cost  me  a  great  deal  more  than  I  possess.  He  may  have  thought 


—  445  — 

very  innocently  of  it,  that  I  do  not  say  how  he  could,  but  he  may 
have  done  so;  and  I  may  have  been  a  little  too  emphatic. 

Q.  Now,  I  just  want  to  know,  Colonel,  if  you  considered  that  a 
bribe? 

A.  Well,  it  was  not  exactly  a  bribe,  but  I  think  it  was  an  over- 
ture that  way. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  You  have  never  exposed  that  before  to 
anybody,  have  you? 

A.  Well,  yes;  I  have  told  a  friend  or  two  about  it,  and  I  think 
I  told  Mr.  Crockett  of  it.  It  hurt  me  to  think  that  anybody  sup- 
posed that  I  could  be  reached  in  that  way. 

DR.  C.  E.  WITT,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Doctor,  what  position  do  you  hold? 

A.     Physician  at  the  penitentiary. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  such? 

A.     Will  be  four  years  the  first  day  of  this  coming  April. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  a  convict  by  the  name  of  James  F. 
Rector? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  ever  treat  him? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Where? 

A.     In  the  hospital  at  the  penitentiary  walls. 

Q.     When? 

A.  Colonel,  I  think  that  it  was  in  the  fall  of  1900;  it  was 
the  first  fall  before  Governor  Davis  took  his  seat  as  Governor,  I 
think. 

Q.  Well  now,  for  what  cause  was  he  sent  to  the  walls  for  treat- 
ment? 

A.     He  was  sent  there  with  indigestion;   intestinal  indigestion. 

Q.     Where  was  the  seat  of  the  trouble? 

A.     It  was  intestinal  indigestion — biliousness. 


—  446  — 

Q.  How  long  was  he  there  in  the  hospital  under  your  treat- 
ment? 

A.  He  came  in  from  one  of  the  camps  the  latter  part  of  Sep- 
tember or  the  first  of  October,  and  I  think  stayed  until  about  some- 
time the  early  part  of  November,  I  don't  remember  just  the  exact 
date,  but  some  time  about  six  weeks  he  was  in  the  hospital. 

Q.     From  four  to  six  weeks? 

A.     From  four  to  six  weeks,  my  records  will  show  exactly. 

Q.    Well,  how  was  the  disease,  obstinate  or  easy  to  treat? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Did  it  yield  to  the  treatment? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  did  not  yield  to  the  treatment;  he  could  not 
digest  anything.  We  gave  him  malted  milk  morning  and  evening, 
and  he  would  either  vomit  it  up  or  it  was  passed  through  undi- 
gested, and  he  simply  starved  until  he  was  in  an  emaciated  condi- 
tion. He  could  not  retain  any  stimulants. 

Q.  What  was  his  condition  in  other  respects  when  he  reached 
the  hospital? 

A.     He  was  somewhat  emaciated;   that  was  the  only  thing. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  with  respect  to  the  appearance  of  any 
scars  on  his  body? 

A.     There  was  none  when  he  came  to  the  hospital. 

Q.     No  scars? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  remember  seeing  any  scars  or  sores  on  him 
of  any  kind. 

Q.  Did  he  become  scarred  or  his  body  become  sore  anywhere 
after  he  came  there,  and  if  so  what  was  the  cause  of  it? 

A.  About  two  weeks  or  maybe  ten  days,  there  was  a  couple  of 
bed  sores  developed  on  him  right  here(  indicating  spots  near  hip). 

Q.     What  became  of  him;  did  he  die? 

A.  He  was  pardoned.  I  recommended  to  the  board  that  he 
be  pardoned  and  Governor  Jones  pardoned  him. 

Q.     Did  he  ask  it  himself  or  not? 

A.     The  convict  did. 


—  447  — 

lat  were  the  circumstances? 
A.  He  told  me  he  had  a  family  at  home — he  had  a  family  at 
some  place  in  Clay  County,  I  believe;  Piggott  I  think — and  he 
wanted  to  go  home  to  them;  he  said  that  they  would  take  care  of 
him,  and  I  came  down  and  recommended  that  he  be  pardoned — 
and  represented  these  facts  to  the  board  and  the  Governor  pardoned 
him. 

Q.  Did  you  or  not  before  that  tell  him  whether  he  would  get 
well? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  told  him  that  I  did  not  think  he  could  get  well. 

Q.  You  could  not  administer  anything  to  him  or  give  him  any 
treatment  that  would  check  the  disease  or  break  it  down? 

A.  I  tried,  but  didn't  seem  like  anything  I  did  done  him  any 
good. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  bruises  or  places  upon  his  person  as  if  he 
had  been  whipped? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  Governor  Davis  got  the  skeleton 
picture — 

A.     I  remember  seeing  it  in  the  paper. 

Q.  Did  you  or  not  talk  with  Governor  Davis  about  that  before 
he  published  that  photograph? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  met  him  here  at  the  state  house,  and  I  think  he 
had  a  photograph  of  the  convict,  and  he  asked  me  about  him,  and  I 
gave  him  a  history  of  the  case  as  I  have  stated  it  here. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  to  you  at  that  time  about  his  having 
sores  on  him  from  being  whipped? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  said  he  understood  that  the  convict  had  sores 
on  him  from  being  whipped,  and  that  is  when  I  told  the  history  of 
the  case,  and  I  explained  to  him  about  the  sores,  and  told  him  how 
he  got  the  sores ;  told  him  that  they  were  bed  sores  developed  right 
here  in  the  hospital. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  him  that  he  had  no  scars  on  him  from  whip- 
ping? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


—  448  — 

Q.     That  those  scars  were  not  from  whipping? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  no  scars  on  him,  or  I  do  not  know 
of  any  and  I  examined  him,  but  after  he  was  in  the  hospital  about 
ten  days  there  was  two  raw  bed  sores  developed  on  him. 

Q.     Now  what  did  the  Governor  say  when  you  told  him  that? 

A.  I  don't  remember,  Colonel.  I  just  told  him  the  same  as  I 
have  told  you  here. 

Q.  Well,  did  he  say  whether  he  was  satisfied  about  what  you 
had  stated  or  whether  he  was  not  satisfied? 

A.  He  didn't  seem  to  be  satisfied  about  the  matter,  but  I  don't 
remember  what  he  said. 

Q.     Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  McConnell  ever  told  him? 

A.     He  said  he  did. 

Q.    Do  you  know  that? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  just  told  me  that  he  talked  with  the  Governor. 
I  don't  know  what  he  said  to  him  about  it,  though. 

Q.  Doctor,  is  it  true  or  not  that  since  the  new  board  went  in — 
I  mean  since  the  board  as  at  present  organized  took  charge  of 
these  convicts— that  they  have  been  overworked  and  not  fed,  and 
whipped  and  abused  and  mistreated? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  think  they  have.  They  have  not  so  far 
as  I  know. 

Q.    As  the  doctor,  do  you  visit  the  different  camps? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Where  was  this  man  Rector  before  he 
was  brought  to  the  penitentiary  hospital  here? 

A.     He  came  from  England  camp,  the  Beakley  place. 

Q.     How  often  did  you  make  visits  to  that  camp? 

A.  I  try  to  make  a  visit  about  once  a  month;  sometimes  it 
would  be  a  little  longer  before  I  could  get  around. 

Q.  Then  you  have  no  personal  knowledge  as  to  what  trans- 
pired at  those  camps  in  your  absence? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  would  have  no  personal  knowledge  of  it. 

Q.  Was  the  examination  that  you  made  here  such  that  you 
would  have  seen  if  punishment  had  been  administered;  would  you 


—  449  — 

disrobe  and  examine  a  prisoner — convict — when  he  is  brought  in 
from  the  camp? 

A.  Every  convict  that  is  brought  to  the  walls,  if  he  is  sick, 
I  strip  him  and  examine  him.  I  have  to  do  it. 

Q.  Did  you  make  a  special  examination  to  see  whether  these 
scars  were  there  that  are  being  talked  about,  or  would  you  do  that 
if  you  had  no  information  to  that  effect? 

A.  No,  unless  some  reason  for  it,  but  I  say  I  usually  strip 
them  off  and  examine  them,  and  I  didn't  see  any  scars  on  this  man. 

Q.  Well,  if  there  was  nothing  wrong  with  their  backs  you 
didn't  take  especial  pains  to  examine  their  backs? 

A.     Unless  they  complained. 

Q.  These  bed  sores,  I  believe  you  stated,  came — they  were  on 
his  back  when  he  came  to  the  hospital? 

A.     No,  sir;  they  developed  there  at  the  hospital. 

Q.  Did  you  make  a  special  examination  of  him  to  see  whether 
he  had  been  whipped  or  not? 

A.  I  don't  remember  that  I  did.  I  never  examined  him  for 
that  purpose,  but  I  am  sure  I  would  have  seen  them  when  I  exam- 
ined him. 

Q.     Now  would  you  swear  positively  that  he  was  not  whipped? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  would  not. 

Q.     Were  there  any  scars  on  his  back  except  those  two  sores? 

A.     I  don't  remember  of  any  scars  on  his  back. 

Q.  You  don't  swear  positively  that  there  was  not  though,  do 
you? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  will  not  swear  positively  that  there  was  no  scars 
on  his  back,  for  there  may  have  been  some  there  from  other  pur- 
poses or  other  causes. 

Q.  You  will  not  swear  positively  then  that  he  had  no  scars 
on  his  back  from  whipping? 

A.     I  don't  think  he  did. 

Q.     You  are  not  positive? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Well,  you  testify  as  to  the  diet,  will  you  testify  as  to  the 

Testimony — 15 


—  450  — 

kind  of  diet  this  man  had  before  he  came  down  to  this  emaciated 
condition? 

A.     No,  sir;   except  what  I  was  told  by  the  warden. 

Q.     From  your  personal  knowledge? 

A.     From  my  personal  knowledge  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Now  can  you  state  to  this  committee  what  causes  lead, 
or  what  excesses  lead  to  that  extreme  case  of  indigestion? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.  You  do  not  state,  then,  that  it  was  improper  food  that  he 
received  down  there? 

A.  No,  sir;  because  we  have  plenty  of  people  that  are  affected 
with  indigestion  that  have  the  best  kind  of  food  that  they  can 
get. 

Q.     You  don't  state  that  that  was  not  caused  by  the  food? 

A.     I  do  not. 

Q.  Greasy  pork  and  half-cooked  corn  bread  and  cabbage, 
wouldn't  that  cause  indigestion? 

A.     I  can't  say. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  that  a  man's  digestive  organs  would  natur- 
ally revolt  against  such  food  as  that? 

A.  It  would  depend  upon  the  condition  of  his  digestive  organs 
nearly  altogether  about  that. 

Q.     Don't  you  think  that  your  digestive  organs  would? 

A.  It  would  depend  upon  whether  I  was  hungry  or  not,  or  in 
a  shape  to  eat  it  or  not.  But,  of  course,  if  my  stomach  was  already 
in  a  bad  condition  it  would  revolt  against  such  food.  Though  I 
don't  think  they  had  that  kind  of  food  down  there. 

Q.     Well,  you  do  not  know  personally  v/hat  the  convicts  had 

down  there  when  you  were  not  there? 

* 
A.     I  did  not;    no,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  man  able  to  travel  when  he  was  pardoned  out  of 
the  penitentiary? 

A.  He  was  able  to  walk;  I  brought  him  in.  He  walked  across 
the  hospital,  not  very  well,  but  he  was  not  absolutely  helpless 
when  I  brought  him  in. 


-451  — 

Q.  Have  you  seen  that  photograph  and  Stackhouse's  evidence 
in  connection  with  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Colonel  Murphy,  I  wish  you  would  let  him  see  that  photo- 
graph. (The  photograph  referred  to  is  handed  to  the  witness.) 
I  wish  you  would  say  if  that  looks  anything  like  Rector? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  it  looks  very  much  like  him. 

Q.     You  have  not  read  the  Stackhouse  evidence? 

A.     I  don't  remember  whether  I  have  ever  read  it  or  not. 

Q.  Well  just  read  it  over  there,  if  you  haven't  already  read  it, 
for  I  want  to  ask  ^Ou  a  question  about  it. 

A.  (After  looking  at  the  evidence  referred  to)  Yes,  sir;  I 
remember  reading  it  now. 

Q.     Would  you  state  that  these  were  not  the  facts? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  they  are  or  not.  I  just  don't  know 
anything  about  it;  I  don't  know  whether  this  testimony  is  true  or 
not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  that  man  lived  after  he  was  par- 
doned out? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     He  went  home,  to  Piggott,  did  he  from  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  went  home  from  here;  I  think  it  was 
at  Piggott. 

Q.  Doctor,  you  visit  the  camps,  I  believe  you  said,  about  once 
a  month? 

A.  I  am  supposed  to  visit  the  camps  once  a  month — I  some- 
times go  twice. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  convicts  there  are  out  there  at  any 
one  time? 

A.  Most  out  there  in  the  fall  of  the  year;  I  think  there  was 
150  down  there  then. 

Q.    What  time  did  this  man  come  to  the  hospital? 

A.  I  can't  say  just  exactly  without  looking  at  my  books. 
There  was  lots  of  indigestion  of  course  and  bilious  trouble;  but  I 
don't  remember  that  I  remember  any  other  just  at  that  time. 

Q.     Was  he  whipped  after  he  got  to  the  hospital? 


—  452  — 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  have  cooked  cabbage  and  half  cooked  corn  bread 
and  greasy  pork  after  he  got  to  the  hospital,  or  was  he  fed  on  some 
proper  diet? 

A.     I  fed  him — got  this  malted  milk  that  you  buy  at  the  drug- 
stores—I got  that  for  him,  and  every  little  nice  thing  that  I  would" 
see  that  I  thought  he  could  eat,  why  I  would  get  it  for  him. 

Q.  Well,  if  he  had  been  scarred  from  whipping  when  he  got  to 
the  hospital  would  you  have  discovered  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   I  think  I  would. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  Did  the  Convict  Rector  make  any  state- 
ment to  you  that  he  had  been  whipped  unmercifully? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that  he  ever  told  me  anything  about  it. 

(Colonel  Murphy  here  states  as  follows) :  In  regard  to  charge 
No.  17,  the  trip  to  New  York,  I  wish  to  say  that  that  charge,  while 
I  depended  on  information  that  I  had  received,  I  find  that  that 
information  has  turned  out  erroneous,  and  I  am  satisfied  that  it 
was  wrong;  and  that  anything  that  has  been  said  about  that  road 
or  about  any  officer  or  attorney  in  connection  with  it  should  not 
have  been  stated. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley  of  Colonel  Murphy)  Who  constitutes  the 
board  of  trx  commissioners? 

A.     The  Governor,  Secretary  of  State  and  Auditor. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  railroad  tax  or  levy  in  this  State 
has  been  raised  since  Governor  Davis  went  into  office? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  do  not. 

Q.     As  Governor? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  do  not. 

Q.     You  don't  know  whether  they  are  raised  or  not? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  board  voted  as  a  unit  on  the  rail- 
road levies  or  not? 

A.  I  do  not.  I  am  unable  to  give  you  any  information  at  all 
about  it.  I  never  was  present  at  a  single  meeting.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  You  don't  know  whether  he  voted  against  the  other  mem 
bers  of  the  board  or  not  on  this  proposition? 


—  453  — 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  anything  about  it.  I  never  was  pres- 
ent and  never  have  heard  that  he  did  and  never  have  heard  that  he 
did  not.  I  don't  know  whether  the  property  is  taxed  up  right  or 
not,  or  rather  if  all  of  it  is  taxed  up,  but  I  am  going  to  see  that  it  is 
another  year. 

Resolution  offered  by  Murphy  on  the  12th  of  August,  and  begin- 
ning on  page  251  of  the  penitentiary  records: 

Whereas,  at  a  meeting  of  this  board  on  the  8th  day  of  July,  1901, 
Governor  Jefferson  Davis,  a  member  of  the  board,  introduced  a  resolu- 
tion to  annul  the  contract  entered  into  on  the  4th  day  of  August,  1899, 
between  the  State  of  Arkansas  and  the  Arkansas  Brick  Manufacturing 
Company  and  to  direct  the  Superintendent  to  turn  the  convicts  in  the 
employ  of  said  brick  company  into  the  penitentiary  walls,  subject  to 
the  further  action  and  disposal  thereof  by  the  board,  on  the  alleged 
ground  that  it  was  vicious  and  hurtful  to  the  best  interests  of  the 
State  and  the  proper  working  of  convicts,  and  was  made  for  a  period 
of  ten  years,  without  authority  of  law,  and  while  arguing  in  support 
thereof  stated  that  his  signature  to  the  contract  was  obtained  by 
fraud,  of  which  he  offered  to  furnish  no  evidence. 

And,  whereas,  he  afterwards,  it  is  said,  through  newspapers  and 
in  public  speeches,  made  in  the  absence  of  the  members  of  the  board 
who  voted  against  the  resolution,  and  without  notice  to  any  of  them 
of  his  intention  to  do  so,  cast  unmerited  and  unwarranted  reflections 
upon  them. 

And,  whereas,  there  appeared  in  the  St.  Louis  Globe-Democrat  of 
August  10.  1901,  a  newspaper  having  a  general  and  extensive  circula- 
tion in  the  State  of  Arkansas  and  nearly  all  the  States  of  the  Union, 
an  interview  with  the  Governor  of  the  State  of  Arkansas,  in  which  it 
is  reported  that  he  said  of  the  convict  system  in  this  State:  "It's 
about  as  bad  a  condition  as  could  exist  in  any  State.  The  convicts  to 
the  number  of  six  hundred  are  let  to  contractors  for  50  cents  per  day 
each.  These  contractors  sub-let  the  men  to  farmers  or  plantation 
managers,  and  they  have  been  abused  in  many  instances.  I  appeared 
before  the  grand  jury  in  Lonoke  county  last  week,  and  produced  wit- 
nesses to  show  to  what  ends  the  convicts  are  used.  In  that  county 
there  is  a  contractoi  who  places  the  convicts  under  guard  of  negroes. 
He  feeds  the  convicts  on  greasy  pork  three  times  a  day.  At  the  noon 


—  454  — 

meal  they  receive  a  little  cabbage  of  the  poorest  quality,  and  some  half- 
baked  cornbread.  They  are  fed  in  the  fields,  right  under  the  broiling 
sun,  and  permitted  no  recreation  at  all  during  the  noon  hour." 

And,  whereas,  the  Governor  is  further  reported  as  saying  that 
the  board  was  composed  of  the  Auditor,  Attorney  General,  Secretary 
of  State,  Commissioner  of  Mines  and  the  Governor,  and  that  the  Audi- 
tor," Attorney  General  and  Commissioner  of  Mines  were  against  him  on 
every  proposition  involving  the  management  of  the  convicts,  and  that 
he  had  recently  made  a  speech  severely  criticising  them;  that  the 
three  members  of  the  board  outvoted  him  and  the  secretary  on  every 
proposition,  and  thereby  brought  it  about  that  they  could  do  nothing, 
and  that  he  proposed  to  go  on  the  stump  throughout  the  State  and 
show  up  the  three  members  who  voted  to  continue  such  a  system. 

And,  whereas,  all  the  contracts  in  respect  to  the  employment  of 
convicts,  except  one,  in  which  the  convicts  are  employed  in  construct- 
ing a  railroad  in  Washington  county,  were  entered  into  and  put  in 
operation  while  the  board  was  composed  of  Ex-Governor  Dan  W.  Jones, 
Auditor  Clay  Sloan,  Secretary  of  State  Hull,  Commissioner  of  Mines 
Hill  and  the  present  Governor,  Davis,  then  Attorney  General. 

And,  whereas,  the  truth  is  that  the  three  members  alluded  to  in 
that  interview  have  not  only  earnestly  supported  every  measure  intro- 
duced before  the  board  to  ameliorate  the  condition  of  the  convicts, 
but  have  been  active  in  devising,  suggesting  and  urging  means  directed 
to  that  end,  and  all  the  insinuations  and  statements  to  the  effect  that 
they  opposed  any  such  measures,  or  favored  the  over-working  or  inad- 
equate feeding  of  the  convicts,  or  feeding  them  in  the  broiling  sun 
or  mistreating  them  in  any  way,  are  false,  as  appears  by  the  record  of 
this  board,  to  say  nothing  of  the  unwarranted  exaggerating  of  the  con- 
dition of  the  system  in  this  State,  and  a  deliberate  and  malicious  libel 
and  slander  upon  the  three  members  alluded  to. 

Therefore,  to  the  end  that  all  who  may  desire  to  know  the  truth 
of  these  matters  may  have  an  opportunity  to  do  so,  I  move  the  fol- 
lowing: 

"Resolved,  that  a  complete  copy  of  all  the  resolutions  and  orders 
in  relation  to  the  management  of  convicts  introduced  or  passed,  to- 
gether with  the  vote  thereon,  since  the  organization  of  the  present 
board,  be  made  and  furnished  the  press  for  publication,  together  with 


—  455  — 

a  copy  of  this  resolution;  and  to  the  end  that  proper  proceedings  be 
taken  for  the  annulment  of  the  contract  above  mentioned  between  the 
State  of  Arkansas  and  the  Arkansas  Brick  Manufacturing  Company, 
in  the  event  that  it  shall  turn  out  that  it  was  fraudulently  procured 
or  entered  into,  or  that  the  signature  of  any  member  of  the  board 
thereto  was  obtained  by  fraud;  that  an  investigation  of  said  contract 
and  the  making  thereof  be  had  at  the  earliest  day  possible;  that  the 
said  brick  company  be  notified  thereof,  and  be  permitted  to  have  repre- 
sentation by  attorney  for  the  examination  and  cross-examination  of 
witnesses,  and  the  introduction  of  such  relevant  evidence  as  it  may 
deem  proper;  that  the  present  Governor,  Ex-Governor  Jones,  Ex-Secre- 
tary of  State  Alex  Hull,  Ex-Auditor  Sloan  and  the  Commissioner  of 
Mines.  Hill,  be  requested  to  appear  before  the  board  and  testify 
under  oath  to  all  matters  within  their  knowledge  touching  the  making 
of  the  contract  and  the  signing  thereof,  and  that  a  literal  memorial 
of  all  the  evidence  be  taken  and  preserved," 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


Ways    and    Fleans   Committee 


ON 


Saturday,  March  21, 


1903 


INDEX. 

HON.  T.   C.   MONROE. 
T.   J.   JACKSON. 

HON.  W.  W.   WHITLEY- 


—  459  — 

Proceedings  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee,  on  the  21st 
day  of  March,  1903. 

HON.  T.  C.  MONROE,  being  recalled,  deposes  and  testifies  as 
follows: 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Do  you  remember  when  Mr.  McCon-" 
nell  ceased  to  be  superintendent? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  Governor  Davis  was  opposed  to 
him  as  superintendent,  and  if  he  tried  to  get  rid  of  him  or  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  opposed  to  him  in  the  election  and  all  the 
time  after  the  election. 

Q.  After  he  voted  to  annul  the  Arkansas  Brick  Company's  con- 
tract, and  the  election  and  installment  of  Mr.  Hogins,  do  you  recol- 
lect whether  Governor  Davis  in  the  board  meeting  said  anything 
about  there  being  no  longer  any  cause  for  feeling  between  him  ana 
the  members  of  the  board  or  any  member  of  the  board? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  I  say  to  that;  what  did  he  remarK;  just  state 
what  he  said,  piease? 

A.     He  remarked — I  don't  remember  his  words  now. 

Q.  Did  he  state  that  I  have  no  cause  for  any  further  trouble 
In  our  board,  and  that  we  will  have  harmony  in  the  Aboard  hereafter? 

A.  That  is  about  what  he  said;  I  don't  know  that  that  is  the 
exact  words  that  he  used  or  not. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  There  is  one  little  matter  i  would  like 
to  have  ome  advice — Mr.  Monroe,  Mr.  Crockett  and  Governor  Davis 
— it  is  in  regard  to  one  of  those  charges  in  reference  to  Governor 
Davis'  action  on  the  State  Board  as  Tax  Commissioner;  do  you  be- 
long to  that  board,  Mr.  Monroe? 

A.     The  Railroad  Assessment  Board? 

Q.     Yes,  sir? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  if  you  were  a  member  of  that  board  at  the 
time  that  Governor  Davis  came  on  to  the  board  by  reason  of  being 
elected  Governor  of  the  State? 


—  460  — 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  it  is  not  a  fact  that  you  members  of  ihe 
board  raised  the  assessed  valuation  of  the  Iron  Mountain,  the  Cot- 
ton Belt  and  the  Choctaw  Railroads  as  a  whole  line  through  the 
State  or  not? 

A.  I  don't  remember  as  to  the  Choctaw;  I  don't  know  as  to 
that,  but  I  think  we  raised  it  as  to  the  Cotton  Belt  and  the  Iron 
Mountain;  but  to  the  best  of  my  recollection  there  was  some  little 
difference  in  the  Choctaw,  and  I  am  not  certain  as  to  that.  I  haven't 
got  the  records,  the  secretary  has  them. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  as  to  the  raise  of  the  taxes  on  the 
Choctaw? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not.  My  recollection  is  that  there  was  a  slight 
raise,  though. 

(Mr.  Whitley  here  asks  that  the  records  be  brought  in.) 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Holland)  I  want  to  ask  Colonel  Monroe  relative  to 
his  testimony  last  night.  Now,  when  you  testified  last  night  thai 
you  did  not  hear  officially  about  the  rules  being  violated,  what  did 
you  mean  by  hearing  it  officially? 

A.     I  haven't  heard  it  officially? 

Q.    What  did  you  mean  by  that? 

A.  That  I  had  not  been  notified  about  it  through  any  official 
order  or  in  any  official  way;  I  may  have  heard  of  it  on  the  street. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  you  know  of  the  Governor  and  the  Attorney 
General  going  out  there  for  anything  of  that  kind  at  the  peniten 
tiary? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  anything  about  it.  I  know  they  went 
out  there  to  quiet  a  riot. 

Q.     Do  you  know  the  cause  of  that  riot,  Col  «nel? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  some  of  the  hands  bucked — they  refused  to 
work  on  account  of  not  being  punished  under  the  influence  of  the 
rules,  I  suppose. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  they  had  spread  a  mosquito  oar  or  a  net 
over  their  back  and  whipped  them  so  that  they  would  not  be  vio- 
lating the  rules  by  whipping  them  on  the  bare  backs,  do  you  know 
if  such  was  the  case? 


—  4G1  — 

A.  I  did  not  hear  thaat  they  did.  When  the  Governor  and  the 
Attorney  General  went  out  there  they  asked  me  to  go,  but  I  was 
not  well  and  I  didn't  go  with  them,  and  the  Governor  and  the  At- 
torney General  went  out  there;  that  was  only  a  day  or  two  after 
the  rules  had  been  adopted? 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Do  you  know  what  the  bonded  in- 
debtedness of  these  roads  is? 

A.     No,  sir;    I  do  not. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  it  is  from  sixty  to  sixty-three  thousand 
dollars  a  mile? 

A.     No;   I  don't  remember,  Colonel. 

Q.  Did  you  look  into  that  when  you  were  levying  the  assess- 
ment? 

A.  No;  I  don't  remember  looking  into  it;  we  only  make  the 
assessment  every  other  year. 

Q.  I  expect  maybe  you  assessed  them  according  to  their  state- 
ment; what  do  you  recollect  about  anybody  looking  Into  the  ques- 
tion of  their  bonded  debt  on  the  road? 

A.     I  don't  think  that  we  did,  Colonel. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Now,  Colonel  Monroe,  I  asked  you  what 
raise  you  made  on  the  mile  of  the  Choctaw,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  ra.i- 
road  ? 

A.  Well,  in  1899  it  was  assessed  at  $6,500  per  mile  on  the  main 
track  and  $2,000  per  mile  on  the  side  tracks,  and  $950  on  the  rolling; 
stock.  In  1901,  main  track,  $7,500—  advanced  $1,000  per  mile;  side- 
tracks,  same  as  former  assessment,  and  the  rolling  stock  was  as- 
sessed $1,500. 

Q.  Then  the  main  line  was  raised  $1,000  per  mile  and  the  side- 
tracks just  left  the.  same  and  the  rolling  stock  was  raised  $550  u. 
mile? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  I  will  ask  you  whether  or  not  Governor  Davis  made  a. 
motion  to  raise  the  valuation  of  these  roads? 

A.  He  did  as  to  the  Iron  Mountain  and  the  Cotton  Belt,  but  I 
am  not  sure  as  to  this  one  now.  The  Governor  was  absent  on  busi- 
ness, and  he  just  told  Mr.  Crockett  and  me  to  go  ahead;  that  what- 


—  46J3  — 

ever  we  did  would  be  satisfactory  to  him;  but  the  Iron  Mountain 
and  the  Cotton^  Belt  and  a  road  up  here  at  Fayetteville  were  as- 
sessed— I  presume  they  were  assessed  when  he  was  present;  and  I 
know  we  assessed  four  other  roads. 

Q.  Now,  I  will  ask  you  if  it  is  not  a  fact  that  you  have  voted 
as  a  unit  on  the  raise  of  the  assessments  on  the  valuation  of  these 
roads? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     There  was  no  dissenting  vote? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    None  at  all? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  assessments  was  brought  up  before  that  board  and 
was  voted  on  and  you  voted  for  it  as  a  unit,  and  raised  the  assessed 
valuation  on  the  main  line  $1,000  per  mile? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Were  not  the  railroads  worth  more 
than  $1,000  per  mile  above  what  they  were  worth  per  nine  in  1901? 
From  1901  to  1902? 

A.  According  to  the  way  they  were  reported  by  the  company 
we  thought  so.  They  filed  a  statement  of  their  value,  then  we  based 
our  assessment  on  their  statement  as  compared  with  the  indebted- 
ness on  the  road  in  a  general  way. 

Q.  And  is  their  rolling  stock  worth  more  than  $500  per  mile 
in  1901  than  it  was  in  1899? 

A.  Well,  I  presume  so,  or  we  wouldn't  have  raised  it  that 
much. 

Q.     You  governed  yourselves  altogether  by  the  road's  report? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  principally. 

Q.  You  did  not  look  into  it  to  see  what  the  real  value  of  it  was, 
independent  of  their  report — you  did  not  see  about  their  bonded  In- 
debtedness per  mile?  You  did  not  see  what  that  was? 

A.    No,  sir:  I  don't  remember  that  we  did. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stockard)  This  matter  of  requiring  the  railroads 
to  pay  up  their  old  assessments  from  years  back — back  assess- 
ments— has  that  ever  come  up  in  your  meetn-c? 


—  463  — 

A.    No,  sir;  never  since  I  have  been  a  member  of  the  board. 

T.  J.  JACKSON,  on  oath,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  anu 
testifies  as  follows; 

Having  been  called  by  Mr.  Jacobson,  he  is  interrogated  as  fol- 
lows by  him: 

Q.  Mr.  Jackson,  you  may  please  state  your  business — what 
business  you  are  engaged  in? 

A.     Furniture  and  carpet  business. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  make  a  statement  to  the  committee  here 
relative  to  the  matter  to  the  charge  against  the  Governor  that  has 
been  talked  about  and  printed  in  the  papers? 

A.  There  is  not  much  of  a  statement  to  make  about  it.  I  sent 
the  Governor  a  Christmas  present — a  chair;  that  is  all  there  is  to  it. 

Q.     Well,  has  Governor  Davis  been  a  customer  of  yours? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  state  about  the  amount  of  business  that  he  has 
transacted  with  your  firm  for  the  furnishing  of  his  residence  during 
the  last  year? 

A.     I  can't  say  exactly,  because  I  haven't  examined  the  books. 

Q.    Approximate  it. 

A.  Well,  from  three  to  five  hundred  dollars,  that  I  should 
think. 

Q.     Had  that  much  business  with  your  firm  for  his  residence? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  at  Christmas  you  simply  sent  him  a  chair  as  you  have 
have  already  stated? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  just  a  little  appreciation,  that  is  all. 

Q.  (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Did  you  send  it  to  him  on  Christmas 
day? 

A.  No,  sir;  a  day  or  two  before  Christmas;  about  the  22d  or 
the  23d  day  of  December;  I  am  not  sure. 

Q.  Well,  you  had  just  before  that  furnished  some  charitable  in- 
stitution with  quite  a  considerable  bill,  hadn't  you? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  about  a  month  or  two  before  that. 

Q.     A  bill  for  which  there  was  no  appropriation? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  464  -  - 

Q.    How  much  did  that  bill  amount  to? 

A.  Why,  the  total  of  it  was  something  less  than  $4,000— $3,800, 
I  think. 

Q.  And  you  depended  upon  his  recommending  to  the  legisla- 
ture that  it  be  paid,  didn't  you? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.  Well,  you  knew  when  you  furnished  it  that  there  was  no  ap- 
propriation to  pay  it,  didn't  you? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    You  expected  your  pay,  didn't  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Expected  to  get  paid  for  that  furniture? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  now,  didn't  you  expect  him  to  recommend  the  appro- 
priation? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  expect  that  it  would  be  brought  to  the  atten- 
tion of  the  General  Assembly,  if  he  didn't? 

A.  Well,  there  was  several  ways  it  could  be  brought  to  their 
attention. 

Q.     Did  you  bring  it  to  their  attention? 

A.     I  did  not,  but  had  it  done. 

Q.     It  has  been  brought  to  their  attention,  has  it  not? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     By  whom? 

A.     Dr.  Butler. 

Q.     Who  is  Dr.  Butler? 

A.     He  is  one  of  the  representatives,  I  believe. 

Q.  But  before  that,  it  was  brought  to  their  attention  by  the 
Governor  in  his  message,  wasn't  it? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not  know  that  it  was.  I  got  Dr.  Butler,  of  the 
House,  to  bring  it  up. 

Q.  Do  you  state  now  to  this  committee  that  you  never  saw  the 
Governor  before  you  agreed  to  furnish  that  bill? 

A.  I  do  so,  and  I  never  saw  him  after  that  until  probably  nearly 
two  months  afterwards. 


—  465-- 

Q.    When  was  it  that  you  sold  this  bill? 

A.  Well,  the  beginning  of  the  fall— cool  weather.  I  think  .t 
was  about  the  latter  part  of  November.  I  am  not  certain  about  the 
time,  but  1  think  it  was  in  November  some  time. 

Q.  Before  you  sold  that  bill — how  long  had  it  been  since  you 
had  seen  the  Governor? 

A. .  I  don't  think  I  had  seen  him  to  speak  with  him  for  six 
months  before  that. 

Q.    You  had  not  seen  him  for  about  six  months  before  this? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  had;  it  had  been  several  months.  I  would 
not  state  positively  about  when  it  was. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  between  the  time  of  the  furnishing  of  your 
bill  and  the  convening  of  the  General  Assembly  and  the  delivery  oi 
iais  message? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  not  state  a  short  time  ago  in  the  office  of  Judge  Joe 
House,  in  the  presence  of  Dr.  Waters,  that  the  amount  of  that  bill 
was  $5,000? 

A.  I  did  not  state  that  positively,  because  I  did  not  know  that 
it  was.  I  did  not  have  the  account  and  I  could  not  make  such  a 
statement  as  that. 

Q.  What  did  you  state  in  Judge  House's  office — how  did  you 
aappen  to  be  talking  about  it? 

A.  I  don't  remember  really,  Colonel.  I  don't  remember  that  I 
was  talking  about  it.  I  may  have  been  in  a  casual  way  as  one  ac 
luaintance  would  to  another. 

Q.  Well,  now  did  you  not  on  the  same  day  that  you  sent  the 
Grovernor  that  chair  send  a  cushioned  lounge  to  Mr.  J.  H.  Page,  the 
secretary  of  the  Board  of  Charities? 

A.    On  the  same  day? 

Q.    Yes,  sir? 

A.     I  can't  say  that  I  did  the  same  day;  I  did  send  him  one. 

Q.  Well,  had  Page  been  buying  from  you  on  his  individual  ac 
count,  too? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.    How  much  had  he  bought  on  his  personal  account? 


—  460  — 

A.    I  can't  say  positively.    . 

Q.  Mr.  Jackson,  how  did  it  happen  that  you  sent  those  presents 
on  account  of  the  personal  transactions  of  the  Governor — their  in- 
dividual account,  that  you  just  happened  to  send  the  presents  until 
just  after  you  had  furnished  this  charitable  institution  under  the 
contract  with  them? 

A.     I  do  not  quite  understand  your  question? 

Q.  I  say  if  you  sent  these  presents  on  account  of  the  personal 
dealings  with  them  on  their  individual  account,  how  did  it  happen 
that  you  waited  for  the  sending  of  them  until  just  after  you  had 
supplied  the  charitable  institution  under  that  contract  with  them? 

A.  My  reason  for  waiting  until  that  time  was  because  that  was 
an  appropriate  time  for  gifts. 

Q.  How  long  was  it  before  that  since  either  one  of  them  had 
bought  anything  from  you  on  their  personal  account? 

A.    1. can't  say  positively  as  to  that. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  Is  it  the  custom  of  your  house  to  give 
friends  presents  who  patronize  you  generally? 

A.    It  is  not  actually  a  custom,  but  we  do  it  once  in  a  while. 

Q.  Were  these  two  parties  the  only  parties  that  you  have  con- 
tributed presents  to? 

Q.     (By  Colonel  Murphy)  Did  you  last  Christmas  give  any  of 

A.    No,  sir;  not  by  any  means. 

your  friends  and  your  customers  any  presents — if  you  did,  name 
them? 

A.  I.  did  make  some  presents,  but  I  would  have  to  have  a  little 
time  to  think  who  they  were. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Jackson,  all  I  want  is  just  for  you  to  name  the 
parties  to  whom  you  made  presents — that  you  gave  presents  to  last 
Christmas? 

A.     I  made  Mr.  Wolford  a  present. 

Q.     Who  is  he? 

A.  Mr.  L.  B.  Wolford,  of  the  Iron  Mountain  shops.  I  have  made 
him  a  present  for  the  last  two  or  three  Christmases. 

Q.  What  was  the  Christmas  present  that  you  gave  him  last 
Ckrtelnias? 


—  467  — 

A.  A  mirror.  That  is,  a  hat  rack;  something  I  thought  he 
needed,  and  would  appreciate  about  as  much  as  anything  in  the  way 
of  a  small  present. 

Q.    Now  any  others  last  Christmas?    Just  name  them? 

A.     I  don't  think  of  any  others  just  at  this  time,  Colonel.     I- 
may    have   made   others,    and    I   reckon   there    are    others,    but    1 
can't  think  of  them  just  now.    We  have  about  fifteen  hundred  custo- 
mers on  our  books  and  I  can't  carry  all  of  their  names  in  my  head. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  either  Page  or  Davis  a  present  before 
that? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    How  long  had  you  known  Davis? 

A.    I  presume  about  two  years. 

Q.    Did  he  trade  with  you  the  year  before? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn't  give  .him  a  present  that  Christmas,  the  Christmas 
before,  did  you? 

A.    I  presume  I  did  not;  I  did  not  know  him  well  enough. 

Q.    How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Page? 

A.    About  the  same  length  of  time. 

Q.    Did  he  trade  with  you  personally  before? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  the  year  before. 

Q.     1901,  you  mean? 

A.  The  year  before.  I  don't  think  he  had  traded  any  with  me 
before  the  year  before  last. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Jacobson)  Mr.  Jackson,  I  want  to  ask  you  to  ex- 
plain to  this  committee  the  circumstances  attending  the  selection  of 
this  furniture  while  there  was  no  appropriation  to  pay  for  it — what 
purpose  it  was  for,  and  how  it  was  furnished? 

A.  Well,  Mr.  Page  came  up  there,'  and  we  were  talking  and  he 
said  the  new  building  at  the  Deaf  Mute  was  about  completed,  or  It 
was  completed,  and  that  they  needed  some  furniture  for  it;  that 
they  could  not  use  until  it  was  furnished  and  that  there  was  no 
appropriation  to  buy  furniture,  and  they  wanted  to  use  It,  but  unless 
it  was  furnished  they  could  not,  and  I  agreed  to  let  them  have  it, 
provided  we  could  agree  on  the  prices;  and  we  went  through  and 


—  483  — 

picked  out  what  he  wanted,  and  kept  on  until  we  agreed  on  the 
price,  and  he  gave  me  the  order  for  it. 

Q.     That  was  for  the  new  Deaf  Mute  building? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  as  a  matter  of  fact,  they  could  not  use  the  building  un- 
til it  was  furnished? 

A.    I  don't  think  so,  but  I  don't  see  how  it  could  be  used. 

Q.     How  long  was  that  before  the  legislature  met? 

A.    Well,  that  was  in  November. 

Q.  The  building  would  have  had  to  remain  useless  until  the 
legislature  met,  some  four  or  five  months,  wouldn't  it? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  just  took  it  for  granted  that  the  State  would  pay  you 
for  it,  didn't  you? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  did.  I  took  it  for  granted  that  when  tne  legisla- 
ture met  it  would  make  an  appropriation  all  right — I  had  no  fear 
that  I  would  lose  it,  and  haven't  yet. 

Q.  Mr.  Jackson,  I  will  ask  you  if  in  the  purchase  of  that  furni- 
ture if  the  State  got  the  best  bargain  it  could  get? 

A.    That  is  what  it  did. 

Q.    Who  was  it  made  the  purchase? 

A.  The  Purchasing  Agent.  I  want  to  say  now,  in  justice  to 
myself,  that  I  never  knew  of  Governor  Davis  in  the  transaction.  I 
never  knew  that  he  had  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Funk)  Mr.  Jackson,  what  was  the  amount  of  the 
bill  that  you  sold  to  Mr.  Page? 

A.  We  never  sold  Mr.  Page  any  great  amount  at  any  one  time. 
He  has  made  several  purchases  of  us. 

Q.     You  testified  that  you  gave  him  a  couch  for  a  present? 

A.    Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  such  a  present  as  that  to  other  people 
that  buy  of  you — Christmas  presents? 

A.  I  never  give  presents  to  people  for  buying  of  us;  it  is  simply 
more  or  less  for  a  person's  influence — causing  other  people  to  come 
to  us  and  ?>uy  things.  It  is  not  every  customer  that  we  do  so.  Of 


—  469  — 

course  we  appreciate  their  trade,  that  is  the  reason  we  make  the 
present. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  What  time,  or  where  did  you  have  the 
entire  transaction  for  the  sale  of  that  property  to  the  Deaf  Mute? 

A.  Mr.  Page  and  Mrs.  Yates  and  Professor  Yates  were  in  sev- 
eral times. 

Q.     Who  is  Mrs.  Yates? 

A.    She  is  the  matron  at  the  Deaf  Mute,  I  believe. 

Q.     And  is  Professor  Yates  the  superintendent? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  other  member  of  the  Board  of  Charities  have  any- 
thing to  do  with  that  transaction? 

A.  I  don't  know  of  any  other  member  that  had.  Mr.  Barker 
was  there  once,  I  believe,  and  Mr.  Gordon  once  or  twice. 

Q.    Who  were  there  when  you  completed  the  negotiations? 

A.  Well,  I  think  Mr.  Page  and  Mrs.  Yates.  Mr.  Page  and  I 
agreed  on  the  prices  and  Mrs.  Yates  helped  me  select  the  furniture. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Page  represent  to  you  that  it  would  be  paid  for  by 
the  State  of  Arkansas— or  did  any  one  else? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  You  simply  sold  it  without  any  guarantee  that  it  would  be 
paid  for? 

A.  He  told  me  that  the  Board  of  Charities  had  recommended 
that  the  legislature  appropriate  $4,000  for  the  furnishing  of  the 
Deaf  Mute. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  records  of  the  Board  of  Charities  to 
see  whether  that  statement  made  by  Mr.  Page  was  true  or  not? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  had  enough  confidence  in  him  to  believe  it  with- 
out examining  the  records. 

Q.  You  just  went  on  and  sold  him  this  large  bill  of  furniture 
without  any  guarantee  that  you  would  get  your  money? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  When  did  you  talk  to  Mr.  Whitley  about 
this  matter,  Mr.  Jackson? 

A.     Yesterday. 

Q.     Where? 


A.     In  the  House  of  Representatives. 
Q.     How  did  the  conversation  come  up? 

A.  Mr.  Whitley  was  at  my  store  yesterday  morning  asking  for 
me,  and  so  I  came  down? 

Q.    Why  did  he  want  to  see  you? 

A.     I  don't  know.     The  bookkeeper  told  me  he  had  been  there. 

Q.    What  did  the  bookkeeper  say  he  wanted? 

A.    I  think  he  said  he  was  there  inquiring  for  Busby. 

Q.     That  is,  Mr.  Whitley  was? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Inquiring  for  Busby? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I  was  down  here  in  the  House  of  Representa- 
tives; I  did  not  come  here  to  see  him,  however,  and  I  asked  where 
Mr.  Whitley  was  and  I  went  up  to  him  and  introduced  myself;  in 
the  conversation  he  asked  me  a  few  questions  about  this  transaction 
and  I  told  him  what  I  have  stated  here  to  you  today. 

Q.    That  is  what  you  stated  to  Mr.  Whitley? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  that  was  just  about  the  same  as  I  told 
him. 

Q.     Where  was  that? 

A.     In  the  House  of  Representatives. 

Q.    When  was  it? 

A.  I  don't  know  exactly  whether  it  was  just  before  adjourn- 
ment for  dinner  or  just  after  that  I  got  there. 

Q.    How  long  did  you  talk  to  him? 

A.    About  five  minutes. 

Q.    How  did  you  get  acquainted?    Was  he  acquainted  with  you? 

A.     I  don't  know  whether  he  was  or  not. 

Q.    What  did  you  talk  about? 

A.  He  asked  me  about  these  presents  and  I  told  him;  some- 
thing like  that,  I  believe. 

Q.     What  did  you  tell  him? 

A.     I  told  him  about  the  same  thing  as  I  have  told  you  here. 

Q.    What  did  you  tell  him? 

A.    What  I  have  told  the  committee  is  just  what  I  told  him. 

Q.     In  detail? 


—  471  — 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  in  live  minutes? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  about  five  minutes.  I  may  not  have  told  him  in 
the  same  words  but  in  substance  it  was  the  same  thing. 

Q.    Have  .you  told  any  other  member  of  the  committee  about  it? 

A.     Nobody  except  the  chairman. 

Q.     Have  you  talked  with  anybody  else  about  it? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    Have  you  seen  Busby  lately? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.    Do  you  know  where  he  is? 

A.  Mr.  Whitley  told  me  where  he  was,  but  I  don  t  kuow  where 
he  is  personally. 

Q.  You  say  that  Mr.  Whitley  informed  you  where  Mr.  Busby 
was? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  he  told  me;  that  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Q.  Now,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  know  from  general  informa- 
tion that  a  subpoena  has  been  issued  for  Mr.  Busby  and  placed  in 
the  hands  of  the  sheriff  and  that  they  have  not  been  able  to  find 
Uim? 

A.  It  is  not  a  fact  that  I  know  it  has  been  done,  but  I  have 
heard  it  mentioned  here  in  the  committee. 

Q.  And  you  don't  know  here  he  is  except  from  what  Mr. 
Whitley  told  you? 

A.    Yes,  sir;  that  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Q.    Where  did  he  say  he  was? 

A.  The  fact  of  the  business  is  he  told  me  that  somebody  told 
him  that  he  was  at  Black's  saloon,  or  that  he  was  there  the  other 
day. 

Q.  That  is  what  Mr.  Whitley  told  you;  did  he  tell  you  how  he 
got  that  information? 

A.     No,  sir;  he  did  not. 

MR.  W.  W.  WHITLEY,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  the  chairman, 
deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

I  desire  to  make  this  statement  as  a  matter  of  personal  privi- 
lege. Over  in  the  Supreme  Court  room  the  other  night  the  chair- 


—  472  — 

said  that  there  was  a  subpoena  out  for  this  man  Busby;  that 
Busby  had  been  hiding  out  and  could  not  be  found,  leaving  the  in- 
ference to  be  drawn  that  he  is  being  hid  out  and  kept  out  of  the 
reach  of  the  officers  at  the  instance  of  Governor  Davis.  I  think  that 
was  a  very  unjust  statement  or  insinuation  for  the  chairman  of  an 
investigating  committee  to  make. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Did  anybody  but  you  draw  that  infer- 
ence? 

A.  That  was  the  statement  that  you  made.  That  this  man 
had  been  hiding  out  or  was  being  hid  out — 

Q.     Please  answer  my  question? 

A.     I  drew  it,  and  nobody  else  could  not  help  but  draw  it. 

Q.     I  think  not. 

A.  But  here  is  what  I  wanted  to  state:  If  this  was  a  matter 
to  make  an  impression  upon  the  spectators  and  the  committee.  I 
don't  believe  that  there  had  been  a  diligent  effort  made  to  secure 
this  man  Busby's  appearance  before  the  committee,  and  I  want  to 
assert  here  that  I  believe  it  can  be  proved  that  this  man  Busby 
was  right  on  Main  street  every  day  and  could  be  found  easily.  Now, 
if  it  had  not  been  for  the  extreme  statement  of  the  chairman  of 
this  committee,  I  should  not  have  gone  up  there  to  make  inquiry 
about  this  matter,  but  I  thought  the  statement  unjust  and  the 
treatment  unfair,  and  so  I  went  to  see  if  this  man  Busby  could  oe 
found,  and  whether  that  was  for  the  purpose  of  making  an  impres- 
sion upon  this  committee  or  not  and  the  spectators;  if  so,  then  it 
was  a  very  unjust  advantage  to  be  taken.  And  after  I  had  found 
out  that  Mr.  Jackson  had  been  before  this  committee  every  night 
except  two  or  three,  ready  to  testify,  at  the  instance  of  the  parties 
prosecuting  this  case,  and  that  they  had  failed  to  call  on  him,  that 
was  another  reason  for  raising  my  suspicions,  if  they  were  wanting 
to  examine  into  this  charge.  That  is  my  statement,  and  that  is  my 
reasons  for  doing  so. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Mr.  Whitley,  I  will  ask  you  a  few 
questions.  Were  you  not  aware  that  there  was  a  subpoena  out  for 
Mr.  Busby? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 


—  473  — 

Q.  Did  you  notify  me  or  any  of  the  committee  where  to  find 
him? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     When  did  you  tell  me  about  it? 

A.  I  went  up  to  Mr.  Jackson's  store  and  the  bookkeeper  told 
me  where  I  could  find  Mr.  Busby.  That  he  was  there  every  day. 

Q.     Did  you  report  that  to  the  committee? 

A.    I  did. 

Q.     When? 

A.  Last  night  before  the  committee  opened  to  go  into  tho  ex- 
amination of  this  matter. 

Q.     What  time  did  you  find  out  his  whereabouts? 

A.     Yesterday  about  noon. 

Q.  Then  you  had  all  day  after  that  and  yet  you  never  notified 
the  chairman  of  that  committee  where  he  could  be  found;  now 
don't  you  think  that  was  rather  an  injustice? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.     Do  you  not  call  your  conduct  in  that  an  injustice? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  tell  me  until  last  night  and  yet  you  had  nearly 
all  day  in  which  to  notify  me. 

A.  I  desire  to  decline  to  answer  your  catechisms.  I  will  an- 
swer your  question  just  the  way  I  want  to  answer  it. 

Q.  You  are  a  witness  here  now,  and  stand  the  same  as  any 
other  witness,  and  I  intend  to  handle  you  the  same  way.  You  have 
stated  that  Busby  was  on  the  Main  street  every  day  and  could  be 
found  there  at  the  saloon  every  aay;  now  was  he  there  when  you 
called? 

A.    No,  sir;  he  was  not  in  then,  not  just  at  that  time. 

Q.  But  you  have  stated  that  he  was  there  every  day  and  could 
be  easily  found? 

A.  Yes,  and  I  told  you  yesterday  where  he  could  be  found,  but 
the  subpoena  has  not  been  served  on  him. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Did  you  say,  Mr.  Whitley,  that  Mr.  Jack 
son  was  subpoenaed  at  our  request? 

A.     I  said  he  was  here  to  testify  in  this  case? 


—  474- 

Q.     How  do  you  know  it? 
A.     I  was  told  so. 
Q.     Who  told  you? 

A.  He  told  me  that  he  had  been  here  every  night  except  two  or 
three. 

Q.    Oh,  yes,  and  yet  you  said  that  he  was  one  of  our  witnesses? 

A.  Well,  this  charge  involved  him  and  the  Governor,  and  he 
was  likely  to  be  your  best  witness. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  that  he  was  one  of  our  witnesses?  Did 
you  know  what  Busby  is  going  to  testify  to? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  know  what  Busby  was  going  to  testify  to? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  never  saw  Busby  in  my  life. 

Q.  And  yet  you  state  that  Jackson  was  one  of  our  best  wit- 
nesses? 

A.  I  didn't  know  that  he  was  one  of  your  witnesses.  I  under- 
stood that  he  was. 

Q.  Well,  then,  why  did  you  state  a  moment  ago  that  he  was 
our  best  witness? 

A.  I  just  naturally  considered  that  he  was  the  man  to  know 
more  about  it  than  any  one  else,  as  he  was  the  man  charged  with 
giving  the  gifts. 

Q.  Mr.  Whitley,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  have  been  present  at 
the  actions-  of  this  committee  from  time  to  time? 

A.    Yes,  sir.   . 

Q.  And  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  deputy  sheriff  is  employed  by 
this  committee  and  under  the  control  of  the  committee  and  not  un 
der  our  control  at  all? 

A.     What  are  they  serving  the  committee  for,  then? 

Q.    I  am  just  asking  you  that? 

A.  They  are  at  the  disposal  of  the  committee,  or  they  would 
not  be  here. 

Q.  Don't  the  committee  issue  the  subpoenaes  and  place  them 
in  the  hands  of  the  deputy  sheriffs? 

A.    Yes/ sir. 


—  475  — 

Q.  And  you  are  a  member  of  the  committee  and  see  those  sub- 
poenaes.  Now,  was  Jackson  ever  subpoenaed  by  this  committee? 

A.     I  believe  he  was,  as  he  was  the  man  you  wanted. 

Q.  Then  can  you  look  at  the  subpoenaes — you  have  access  to 
them,  and  see  whether  he  has  ever  been  subpoenaed  or  not,  or  have 
I  or  Colonel  Murphy  requested  the  committee  to  subpoena  Mr.  Jack 
son  before  this  committee — 

(Mr.  Stockard  rises  to  a  question  of  relevancy  of  the  questions 
being  propounded  to  the  witness.) 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  never  did  tell  Colonel  Murphy  or 
the  members  of  the  committee  about  Busby's  whereabouts  until 
last  night  at  the  meeting? 

A.     I  never  had  the  opportunity? 

Q.  And  I  believe  you  stated  that  you  did  not  notify  the  chair- 
man of  his  whereabouts  until  last  night? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Mr.  Whitley,  you  say  that  you  have 
not  seen  Mr.  Busby? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  he  was  there  at  Black's  saloon — how  did 
you  know  where  he  was? 

A.  The  bookkeeper  at  Rhodes,  Haverty  &  Jackson's  told  me 
that  he  was  there,  and  I  went  up  there  to  see  him,  but  he  was  out 
just  at  that  time. 

Q.  Well,  you  don't  know  of  your  own  knowledge  that  he  has 
been  walking  the  streets  of  Little  Rock  every  day? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  the  barkeeper  told  me  that  he  had  been  there 
every  day. 

Q.     Did  you  see  the  bartender? 

A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  he  wasn't  there  when  you  were  there,  was  he? 

A.    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Merriman  reads  the  following:  "State  of  Arkansas, 
County  of  Pulaski.  I  have  this  16th  day  of  March,  1903,  duly 
served  the  within  subpoena  by  reading  and  explaining  the  contents 
of  the  same  to  the  within  named  persons,  Charles  Jacobson,  John  H. 


-  476  — 

Page,  A.  Brizzolara,  J.  M.  McLoud,  T.  L.  Powell,  Frank  Deshon,  11. 
W.  Dougherty,  Judge  -  — ;  R.  B.  Hogins  and  Charles  Watkins, 
And  have  diligently  searched  but  was  unable  to  find  B.  B.  Jett,  J. 

G.  Wol ,  Z.   D.   Busby,   Louis  Altheimer,   in   said    county,    as 

herein  commanded.  Fred   Schader,  Sheriff. 

"By  Barney  Stiel,  Deputy. 
"State  of  Arkansas— County  of  Pulaski. 

"I  have  this  the  17th  day  of  March,  1903,  duly  served  the  within 
subpoena  by  reading  and  explaining  the  contents  of  the  same  to 
the  within  named  persons:  Frank  Deshon,  with  his  books,  T.  L. 
Powell,  A.  D.  Hayes,  Eugene  Jett,  L.  Altheimer,  and  have  diligently 
searched  but  was  unable  to  find  Z.  D.  Busby  in  said  county  as 
herein  commanded.  Fred  Schader,  Sheriff. 

"By  Barney  Steil,  Deputy." 

I  desire  to  state  to  the  committee  that  it  was  on  these  returns 
on  these  subpoenaes  to  the  committee  that  Mr.  Busby  could  not  be 
found.  I  am  satisfied  that  the  sheriff  has  made  every  effort  to  find 
him,  but  he  has  failed  to  do  so,  and  I  do  not  think  there  is  any 
prejudice  in  the  matter  on  the  part  of  any  member  of  the  commit- 
tee. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain  of  Mr.  Whitley)  How  often  have  you  seen 
Governor  Davis  in  the  last  four  days,  and  been  in  his  office  and 
talked  to  him? 

A.  I  have  been  in  his  office,  not  especially  to  see  him,  I  don't 
.{mow  how  many  times,  but  three  or  four  times  perhaps;  I  don't  go 
in  there  for  the  purpose  of  seeing  him  every  time  i  go  in  there, 
though. 

Q.    What  do  you  go  in  there  for,  then? 

A.  I  go  in  there  for  social  purposes,  such  as  I  go  in  the  othei 
offices  for.  I  have  been  in  other  offices  besides  his. 

Q.     Have  you  been  in  the  Attorney  General's  office? 

A.     No,  sir;   I  have  not. 

Q.     Is  he  not  just  as  sociable  as  Governor  Davis? 

A.  That  has  nothing  to  do  with  it — nothing  to  do  with  this 
case  at  all,  sir. 

Q.     Don't  you  know  that  you  have  gone  repeatedly  to  Governoi 


—  477  — 

Davis,  Mr.  Whitley,  and  told  him  about  the  witnesses  subpoenaed 
by  this  committee — either  Governor  Davis  or  Charles  Jacobson — 
haven't  you  told  them  at  various  times  when  there  was  a  subpoena 
out  for  various  witnesses? 

A.  I  never  told  him  that  there  was  a  subpoena  for  any  living 
witness — no,  sir;  I  have  not  talked  with  him  about  witnesses. 

Q.  Didn't  you  ever  tell  him  that  there  was  certain  witnesses 
called  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  told  him  that  there  was  certain  witnesses 
called  to  come  before  the  committee? 

Q.     What  did  you  tell  him  about  that? 

A.     Nothing. 

Q.  Didn't  you,  now,  from  time  to  time,  during  the  progress  of 
this  examination,  ascertain  the  witnesses  that  were  to  be  here  and 
tell  him?  And  what  they  would  swear  to? 

A.    No,  sir;  I  never  made  any  inquiry. 

Q.  And  about  certain  questions,  certain  information  to  elicit 
from  the  witnesses? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  never  made  any  inquiry. 

Q.  Well,  how  did  you  get  that  information  about  the  using  of 
that  mosquito  bar  when  they  whipped  the  convicts  to  elude  a  viola- 
tion of  the  law? 

A.  That  question  was  handed  to  me  last  night  on  a  slip  of  pa- 
per by  some  member  of  the  committee? 

Q.     Who  handed  it  to  you? 

A.    I  believe  Mr.  Funk;  I  am  not  sure 

Q.     Whose  handwriting  was  it  in? 

A.  Why,  I  don't  know  just  whose  handwriting  it  was  in.  I 
don't  remember  now. 

(Mr.  Stockard  objects  to  any  further  questioning  along  this 
line,  the  objections  are  sustained  by  the  chair.  The  chairman 
makes  a  statement  to  the  committee  in  regard  to  the  questions  that 
was  handed  in  on  a  slip  of  paper  and  above  referred  to.) 


TESTIMONY 

TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 

Ways    and  .Means  Committee 

ON 

Monday,  March  23, 
1903 


INDEX.     fc 

P.    J.    CARPENTER. 
J.   W.    McLOUD. 
CHARLES    JACOBSON 


—  481  — 

Proceedings  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  on  the  23d 
day  of  March,  1903. 

P.  J.  CARPENTER,  on  oath,  being  first  by  me  duly  sworn, 
deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.     (By  Mr.  McCain)     Mr.  Carpenter,  what  is  your  name? 

A.     F.  J.  Carpenter. 

Q.     You  reside  at  Arkadelphia,  Ark.? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  statement  of  Dr.  Williams  in  the  Arkan- 
sas Gazette  and  other  papers  as  to  what  you  told  in  regard  to  the 
telephone  message  that  Governor  Davis  sent  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Governor  Davis  send  you  a  telephone  message  after  the 
primary  election  of  last  year  in  regard  to  Clark  County  giong  for 
Clark? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  the  committee  what  the  telephone  message  was  as  near 
as  you  can  remember  it,  and  when? 

A.  I  disremember  just  what  day  it  was,  but  it  was — I  believe 
the  primaries  were  on  Saturday  and  it  must  have  been  on  Monday 
afternoon — I  was  out  of  town  and  I  came  home  on  Monday,  and  the 
long  distance  'phone  called,  or  rather  I  was  called  up  by  the  long 
distance  telephone  exchange,  and  I  went  down  and  called  up  and 
asked  who  it  was,  and  they  said  it  was  Governor  Davis,  and  then  I 
told  them  to  call  Governor  Davis,  and  he  answered,  and  about  what 
Dr.  Williams  stated  the  other  day  was  practically  the  message  from 
Governor  Davis. 

Q.  Well,  now  just  tell  the  committe  what  the  Governor  said  just 
as  near  as  you  can  remember  it? 

A.  He  asked  me  how  the  vote  of  Clark  County  was  and  I  told 
him  that  there  was  a  couple  of  townships  to  hear  from,  but  the 
estimate  would  be  about  250  for  Jones,  and  I  could  say  overwhelm- 
ingly for  him,  I  believed,  and  he  said  he  cared  nothing  about  it 
going  for  him,  but  he  would  like  to  have  the  county  voted  for 
Clark,  or  go  for  Clark. 
Testimony- 16 


-482  — 

Q.     What  else  did  he  say  about  your  carrying  it  for  Clark? 
Well,  there  was  some  jesting — jesting  just  about  first  one  thing 
and  then  another,  and  he  says,  can't  you  count  the  county  for  Gov- 
ernor Clark,  or  can't  you — that  may  be  wrong — can't  you  figure  the 
county  for  Clark? 

Q.     Anything  else? 

A.     I  told  him  I  could  not.     There  was  two  townships  to  hear 
from  but  the  results  from  either  of  them  wouldn't  make  any  change; 
that  was  to  say  that  the  two  townships  to  hear  from  would  not 
practically  change  the  250  that  was  voted  for  Jones. 
Q.     What  did  he  reply  to  that? 

A.     Well,  there  was  some  more  jesting.     I   disremember  now 
just  exactly  what  the  words  were. 

Q.     Didn't  he  tell  you  that  he  was  Governor  of  the  State  and  it' 
you  caught  up  with  that  I  will  see — 

(Question  objected  to  and  objections  sustained.)) 
Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)     Mr.  Carpenter,  just  go  on  now  and  tell 
the  conversation  that  occurred? 

A.  He  said  that  he  was  Governor  and  if  there  was  anything — 
well,  that  he  was  Governor,  which  I  understood — 

Q.     (By  Governor  Davis)     No  matter  what  you  understood,  just 
answer  the  question;  just  as  I  told  you? 
A.    Well,  you  said  you  was  Governor. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Is  that  all?  What  did  you  under- 
stand— 

(Governor  Davis  objects  to  the  witness  answering  as  to  what  DO 
understood.) 

Q.     Mr.   Carpenter,  you  have  been   asked  to  several  times   to 
state  the  conversation.     Now  is  there  anything  else? 
A.     (No  answer.) 

Q.  TBy  Mr.  McCain)  I  will  ask  you,  Mr.  Carpenter,  if  the  Gov- 
ernor did  not  use  some  profane  language  over  the  telephone  when 
he  telephoned  you? 

(Governor  Davis  objects  to  the  question  and  his  objections  are 
sustained  by  the  chairman.) 

Q".     Didn't  the  Governor  use  profane  language? 


—  483  — 

(Objected  to  by  Governor  Davis  and  objections  sustained  by  the 
chairman.) 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  you  did  not  tell  Dr.  Williams  that  you 
never  heard  any  more  profane  language  than  the  Governor  used 
over  the  telephone? 

(Governor  Davis  objects  to  the  question;  objections  sustained 
by  the  chairman,  and  exceptions  saved.) 

Q.  Didn't  the  Governor  telephone  you  this  message  before  the 
returns  of  Clark  County  was  in  in  full — 

A.     There  was  two  townships  to  hear  from. 

Q.  And  that  his  statements  in  that  message  were  as  profane 
language  as — 

(Governor  Davis  objects  to  the  question  and  objections  are 
sustained  by  the  chairman.) 

Q.  Well,  anyway,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  Governor  Davis  tele- 
phoned you,  in  whatever  manner  it  was,  that  he  wanted  you  to  carry 
the  county  for  Clark? 

A.     He  wanted  me  to  carry  the  county  for  Clark. 

Q.  The  vote  had  already  been  cast,  and  the  returns  were  all  in 
but  from  fwo  townships? 

A.     No,  sir,  not  all  in;  two  townships  to  hear  from. 

Q.  And  at  that  time  he  stated  to  you  that  he  was  Governor  of 
the  State? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  Merriman)     Did  he  say  anything  else? 

A.     Well,  I  am  not  sure  just  what  the  conversation  was,  Judge. 

Q.  You  seem  to  be  sure  about  part  of  it;  was  there  anything 
else  at  all  that  you  remember  that  he  said? 

A.  I  don't  remember  anything  else,  but  if  my  attention  was 
called  to  it  I  might  remember  it. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Now,  Falve,  are  you  not  mistaken 
about  that  being  Monday;  wasn't  it  Saturday  night  after  the  pri- 
maries that  I  had  that  talk  with  you ;  may  you  not  be  mistaken  about 
that? 

A.     I  think  it  was  Monday,  Governor. 


—  484  — 

Q.     You  think  it  was  Monday  night? 

A~.  Yes,  sir,  because  we  couldn't  have  gotten  the  returns  frora 
all  of  the  townships,  and  all  but  two  townships  had  been  heard  from. 

Q.  Well,  may  you  not  be  mistaken;  now  wasn't  it  Saturday 
night — about  nine  o'clock  Saturday  night  after  the  election? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     You  were  not  for  Clark,  were  you? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.     You  were  a  pronounced  Jones  man? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  understood  that  you  were  a  Jones  man  and  you.  under- 
stood that  I  knew  you  were — in  fact  everybody  down  there  un- 
derstood that? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     That  you  were  a  pronounced  Jones  man? 

A.     Down  there  did;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  called  you  up  over  the  telephone,  now  Mr.  Carpenter. 
didn't  I,  and  asked  you  how  the  vote  was  and  you  said  it  was  for 
Jones  about  250? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Didn't  I  say  to  you,  Mr.  Carpenter,  isn't  there  any  way  to 
figure  the  county  for  Clark,  and  you  said  you  didn't  think  that  there 
was?  Now  wasn't  that  about  the  substance  of  what  I  said  to  you? 

A.     Well,  now  let  us  get  it  right. 

Q.  All  right;  now  didn't  I  say:  is  there  any  way  to  figure  it 
for  Clark — to  figure  that  county  for  Clark — and  you  said  you  didn't 
think  there  was  because  there  was  only  two  townships  to  hear  from 
and  they  wouldn't  make  much  difference? 

A.     That  is  practically  the  sense  of  it. 

Q.    Well,  that  is  what  I  mean. 

A.     It  is  riot  just  exactly  as  I  heard  it,  though. 

Q.  Well,  didn't  I  ask  you  in  substance,  is  there  any  way  to 
figure  the  county  for  Clark? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  about  the  substance  of  it — and — 

Q.     That  is  about  the  substance  of  it,  isn't  it? 


—  485  - 

A.  Yes,  sir,  and  I  told  you  that  it  couldn't  be,  because  there 
wasn't  but  two  townships  to  hear  from  and  they  wouldn't  make 
much  of  a  change  in  the  result. 

Q.  And  didn't  I  tell  you  that  I  was  doubtless  elected  Governor, 
or  that  I  was  the  Governor  yet,  or  that  I  was  elected  Governor  and 
was  the  Governor  yet— the  substance  of  the  thing? 

A.  Well,  bring  the  communication  around  right  Governor  and 
tell  it  according  to  how  we  had  it;  I  have  stated  it  here. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  am  trying  to  do.  Now  I  told  you,  I  am 
doubtless  elected  Governor  and  I  am  Governor  yet? 

A.     You  stated  that  you  was  Governor. 

Q.  Didn't  I  tell  you  since  I  had  carried  Clark  County  I  was 
Governor  yet? 

A.     I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  were  Governor. 

Q.    And  that  was  all  there  was  to  it? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

(The  witness  here  requests  that  his  testimony  be  read  over  to 
him,  which  is  accordingly  done.) 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Did  you  know  that  it  was  Governor  Davis 
that  was  talking  over  the  telephone  to  you? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  recognize  the  Governor's  voice  when  he  gave 
you  that  message  over  the  'phone? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  did  you  know  it? 

A.  I  think  I  am  familiar  with  his  voice.  I  think  I  am  familiar 
enough  with  his  speech  to  recognize  his  voice. 

Q.     You  are  positive  that  it  was  him  that  telephoned  to  you? 

A.  Well,  I  am  just  as  positive  as  could  be  not  to  be  looking 
him  right  in  the  face. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Merriman)  Mr.  Carpenter,  have  you  told  all  that 
occurred  in  that  conversation? 

A.     I  can't  tell,  Judge,  whether  I  have  or  not. 

Q.  Is  there  any  means  of  your  ascertaining  whether  you  have 
or  not? 


~  486  — 

A.  There  is;  if  you  would  call  my  attention  to  anything  that 
might  have  passed  over  the  'phone  I  might,  but  I  disremember  it 
at  present.  There  may  have  been  something  else. 

Q.  You  stated,  Mr.  Carpenter,  that  the  published  report  in  the 
papers  of  the  statement  made  by  Dr.  Williams  was  substantially 
the  facts? 

A.     Practically  correct. 

Q.     Now,  then,  you  saw  that — wasn't  your  attention  called  tc 
the  conversation  that  ocurred? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  testified  everything  that  you  know  in  regard  to 
this  conversation,  after  having  your  attention  called  to  it  by  that 
statement? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  all  that  I  know  now.  I  will  state  if  there  is  any- 
thing left  out  of  my  testimony  of  that  conversation  I  don't  remember 
it  at  present. 

Q.  When  the  message  came  "I  am  Governor"  was  there  any- 
thing else  said  with  that? 

A.     I  don't  remember  that  there  was. 

Q.     You  are  not  sure  that  there  was  not? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Whitley)  You  stated  that  there  was  a  little  jest- 
ing about  this,  did  you,  Mr.  Carpenter — I  believe  you  stated  that 
there  was  some  jesting? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Mr.  Whitley  asked  you  if  this  was 
jesting;  did  you  understand  the  entire  conversation  to  be  jesting? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     What  part  of  it  did  you  understand  as  jesting? 

A.  There  was  some  talk  that  was  had  that  I  can't  just  recall 
but  it  was  in  a  kind  of  foolish — I  don't  know  what — well,  I  don'r 
know  how  to  express  it. 

Q.     Well,  what  part  of  it  now? 

A.     I  regarded  it  as  ridiculing  me  for  voting  for  Jones. 

Q.     What  part   of  that  particular   message  was  that? 


—  487  — 

A.  When  I  told  him  that  the  vote  was  for  Jones  and  not  for 
Clark.  I  can't  remember  just  what  it  was,  but  jesting  was  some- 
thing along  that  way. 

Q.  Did  you  communicate  with  Mr.  Whitley  or  Mr.  Jackson 
about  coming  up  here? 

A.     I  never  seen  Mr.  Whitley  that  I  know  of  in  my  life. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  a  fact  that  Governor  Davis  and  Mr.  Jacobson 
got  you  to  come  up  here? 

A.  No,  sir;  there  was  a  man  told  me  last  night  about  nine 
o'clock  that  I  better  come? 

Q.  That  the  best  thing  for  you  to  do  would  be  to  come  up 
here? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And.  you  came? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  didn't  particularly  care  about  it  at  all,  but  I  hated 
to  be  under  arrest  in  Arkansas. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  ^Whitley)  Do  you  remember  ever  having  a  conver- 
sation with  Fallen,  and  Ed  and  Hugh  Jones  at  the  Smoker  Mercan- 
tile Company's  store — perhaps  along  about  the  15th  of  this  month — 
in  reference  to  the  charges  published  in  these  papers  in  this  con- 
nection ? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  don't  remember  having  any  conversation  there  or  ever 
making  any  statement  about  it? 

A.     Not  that  I  remember;   I  may  have  done  it. 

Q.  Do  you  hemember  telling  G.  W.  Fallen  or  E.  and  Hugh 
Jones  that  Governor  Davis  had  told  you  in  reference  to  the  matters 
alleged  in  those  charges — 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  stated  that.  That  would  have  been  a  lie 
if  I  did.  I  am  not  in  the  habit  of  telling  those  things. 

J.  M.  McLOUD,  being  recalled,  deposes  and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Mr.  McCain)  Mr.  McLoud,  I  believe  you  have  been 
sworn  in  this  case  before? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  I  believe  that  you  testified  about  the  car  that  went  to 


—  488  — 

Western  Texas  over  the  Choctaw.  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  with  the  hunt- 
ing  party? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  just  want  to  ask  you  one  thing  about  that;  how  was  the 
expenses  of  that  trip  charged  up  between  the  various  offices  oi 
your  road,  do  you  know? 

A.     No  expense  to  it  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Didn't  you  charge  it  up  then  on  the  books  of  the  company 
at  all? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.    What  would  be  the  entry  on  the  books? 

A.    Wouldn't  be  any  at  all. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  McLoud.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  it  is  not  a  fact 
that  Governor  Davis  and  his  family  preceeding  the  trip  in  Septem- 
ber on  the  hunting  trip,  had  a  car  over  the  Choctaw,  Oklahoma  & 
Gulf  Railroad,  or  whatever  you  styled  your  road  at  that  time,  to  go 
over  the  Choctaw  to  Howe,  I.  T.,  and  from  there  over  the  P.  G.  to 
Siloam  Springs? 

A.     That  is  a  matter  I  know  nothing  about  at  all. 

Q.     What  was  your  understanding  about  it? 

A.     My  understanding  about  it  was — 

(Governor  Davis  objects  to  the  witness  testifying  as  to  what 
he  just  understands.) 

Q.  To  transfer  some  household  goods,  ice,  a  horse  and  buggy 
and  some  things  over  the  Choctaw  to  Howe,  and  from  there  over  the 
P.  &  G.  to  Siloam  Springs? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  that  whatever.  I  think  Gov- 
ernor Davis'  family  was  up  there,  and  he  may  have  shipped  some 
goods  up  there,  but  I  don't  anything  about  it.  I  wasn't  in  the 
country  at  all. 

Q.  Don't  the  expense  books  of  your  office  show  that  the  bill  was 
presented  for  that  car  for  $20  and  that  it  was  paid  out  of  the  expense 
account  of  your  department? 

A.     No,  sir.  I  think  not. 

Q.    They  wfll  not? 


—  489  — 

A.     No,  sir.  they  will  not. 

Q.     You  never  heard  of  it  at  all? 

A.     I  know  nothing  whatever  about  it. 

Q.     Who  was  running  your  office  at  that  time? 

A.  Wasn't  anybody,  and  everybody,  I  guess,  more  or  less.  I  was 
in  Colorado. 

Q.     Mr.  Pierce  and  Mr.  Busby? 

A.  No,  sir;  they  were  not  running  my  office;  they  were  in  their 
departments  and  had  their  kind  of  work  to  da. 

Q.     Who  did  you  have  in  charge  of  it  while  you  were  gone? 

A.     I  can't  tell  you,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  when  you  went  off  and  left  it  didn't  you  leave  any- 
body in  charge  of  it? 

A.     I  left  my  clerks  there. 

CHARLES  JACOBSON,  being  recalled  by  Governor  Davis,  de- 
poses and  testifies  as  follows: 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Mr.  Jacobson,  I  just  want  to  ask 
you  whether  it  is  true  or  not  that  you  ever  paid  my  private  resi- 
dence 'phone  rent  and  your  residence  telephone  rent  out  of  the 
contingent  fund? 

A.     It  is  not  true. 

Q.     How  did  you  pay  it? 

A.  I  paid  for  your  residence  telephone  by  a  cehck  on  your 
bank  account  and  I  paid  for  mine  by  actual  money. 

Q.    Who  did  you  pay  it  to  for  these  nine  months? 

A.     Paid  it  to  the  collector  for  the  telephone  company. 

Q.     For  these  nine  months  in  question? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  paid  it  to  the  collector,  whoever  he  was? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     I  will  ask  you  when  the  contingent  fund  expired? 

A.    Some  time  during  the  month  of  October  or  November  last. 

Q.  How  has  the  long  distance  telephone  messages  and  my 
private  telephone  been  paid  for  since  that  time? 

A.     By  money — cash. 


—  490  — 

Q.     Whose  cash? 

A.     Yours. 

Q.     How? 

A.     Well,  by  check,  as  I  remember. 

Q.     On  which  bank? 

A.  On  Worthen's  Bank.  One  check  was  for  sixteen  something 
and  one  for  thirteen  something,  and  I  remember  paying  it  a  few 
times  by  cash. 

Q.  Now  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  telephone  messages  that  have 
been  to  my  father  or  my  wife  were  personal  matters  and  that  they 
were  not  proper  to  be  charged  to  the  contingent  fund,  and  have  I 
more  than  paid  for  what  they  would  amount  to  since  my  contingent 
Cund  ran  out? 

A.  I  can't  say  how  much  of  your  personal  matters  went  into 
the  bills  that  were  paid  out  of  the  contingent  fund,  that  is  to  say 
how  much  was  paid  out  of  the  contingent  fund  for  your  personal 
matters.  I  can't  even  tell  just  how  much  the  telephone  bills  have 
been  for  the  State  purposes  since  the  contingent  fund  expired  that 
[  have  paid  to  the  telephone  company  for — that  is  long  distance 
telephone — out  of  your  private  funds,  but  I  think  it  would  be  ten  or 
twelve  dollars.  It  is  that  much,  and  I  don't  know  just  how  much. 

Q.  Was  there  any  mention  of  that  amount  made  in  the  defi- 
ciency appropiration  bill? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Did  I  tell  you  not  to  put  it  in? 

A.  No,  s4r.  Did  you  tell  me  to;  no  sir,  you  never  said  anything 
to  me  about  it,  and  I  said  nothing  to  Mr.  Ginnochio  about  it  when 
he  was  around  getting  up  the  deficiency  list.  You  didn't  tell  me 
not  to,  but  I  didn't  put  it  in,  for  I  think  you  had  told  me  when  the 
contingent  fund  expired  to  pay  the  bills  out  of  your  funds. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  -  — )  The  Governor  asked  you  to  pay 

ill  of  the  bills  from  that  time  on  out  of  his  own  funds? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  for  the  long  distance  bills. 

Q.     When  was  it  that  Mr.  Ginnochio  come  to  see  you  about  it? 

A.     About  three  or  four  weeks  ago. 


—  491  — 

Q.     Since  this  investigation  has  started? 

A.     I  think  it  was. 

Q.     Since  this  investigation  was  started — 

A.  I  think  he  came  around  and  asked  me  to  make  out  what 
we  wanted  in  uie  regular  appropriation  and  I  made  up  the  list  and 
gave  it  to  him. 

Q.  You  see  the  checks  drawn  by  the  Governor's  office  and  what 
they  are  drawn  for? 

A.     I  draw  them. 

Q.     What  other  checks  did  you  draw  besides  these? 

A.  I  sign  all  of  them.  Governor  Davis  has  never  signed  a 
"-heck  since  he  has  been  in  the  Governor's  office — I  mean  about 
these  maters  of  paying  the  bills. 

Q.     What  other  checks  have  you  drawn  for  the  payment  of  bills? 

A.  I  don't  remember.  I  did  not  even  remember  of  drawing 
these. 

Q.     Then  you  looked  for  these? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  I  found  three  of  these. 

Q.     Did  you  find  any  more? 

A.  No,  sir,  because  there  is  some  of  the  checks  missing,  they 
have  gotten  out  of  the  office. 

Q.     But  you  did  find  these? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  positive,  Mr.  Jacobson,  that  these  were  the  only 
two  that  you  could  find— these  three? 

A.     I  remember  those. 

Q.  (By  Governor  Davis)  Now,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  haven't 
you  paid  out  of  my  funds  since  the  contingent  fund  was  exhausted 
for  the  credit  of  the  State  and  for  the  benefit  of  the  State  between 
sixty  and  seventy  dollars? 

A.  The  telephone  company's  records  show  that  I  have  sent 
them  money  every  month,  I  think. 

Q.     (By  Mr.  McCain)     Since  what  time? 

A.     Since  soon  after  October — November. 

Q.     Last  year? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  since  the  time  the  contingent  fund  was  exhausted, 


and  there  has  not  been  any  money  put  into  the  contingent  fund. 
I  can  also  state — 

(Mr.  Crutcher  here  makes  a  motion  to  adjourn  and  not  to 
hear  any  more  on  this  investigation.) 

(Governor  Davis  states  to  the  committe  that  he  has  no  more  wit- 
nesses to  introduce.) 

(Mr.  McCain  states  that  he  wants  to  introduce  Mr.  Geo.  W. 
Jacks  and  clerks  in  Mr.  McLoud's  office.) 

Mr.  Crutcher's  motion  being  put,  was  carried 


I,  B.  L.  Endicott,  the  official  stenographer  of  the  Ways  and 
Means  Committee,  hereby  certify  that  I  have  compared  the  fore- 
going printed  pages  of  the  testimony  of  witnesses  adduced  before 
the  aforesaid  committee  with  the  original  transcript  thereof  as 
transcribed  from  my  stenographic  notes,  and  find  the  same  to  be  a 
true  and  correct  copy  of  same. 

Signed  this  the  16th  day  of  April,  1903,  at  Little  Rock,  Ark. 

E.  L.   ENDICOTT. 


